Working Women; Episodes 105 & 110

Working women is brought to you by a general support grant from J.C. Penney serving America's working women from coast to coast. During the Depression. Charles Schwab the president of U.S. Steel asked an efficiency expert if he had any tips. Every morning the experts said Make a list in order of importance of the things you have to do then concentrate on the first one until it's done. Then and only then go on to the second. When asked how much he wanted for this obvious advice the expert replied. Try it for a month and pay me what it's worth. Thirty days later Mr. Schwab put a check in the mail for ten thousand dollars. The irritatingly simple art of time management saving for your child's education and the strength of the single mother. These are the topics tonight on working women. I.

Good evening I'm friend Warren and welcome to working women. Well what happened to you if your world fell apart. If one day you were a housewife at home with the kids and the next you were abandoned with three mouths to feed and no idea how to begin would you sink or swim. Joe Clendenon learned to swim and she learned a lot about herself in the process. Five years ago Joe Klein Dunn was a full time mother living in Chicago after her second child was born. Her husband decided that marriage was more than he bargained for and filed for divorce. Joe moved home to Baltimore and slept on her sister's sofa. A five year old and an infant by her side until she could find a job. She was on her own for the first time in her life. Today it's going to have I had recurring nightmares that the children and I had to share a big blue motel room with an elderly couple who watch them at night while I went out to be a waitress and made a pittance in tips. I mean it was a dream that I had a couple of days a week.

Finally after five months I got a job first job in seven years and I went to work for the city of Baltimore and the housing office and the Information Services department and. I used to shake in the ladies room every day because I wanted to be home with my kids that's where I felt like I belong and I had no choice. I had no control over what was happening. OK. Joe has since held good jobs but she continues to place her family above a career. She quit a demanding editorship at the Baltimore News America and took a nine to five position in public relations at Johns Hopkins Hospital to spend more time with Kelly and Jessica yet with her professional success have come some changes. I was married. Funny when I think back now is married 10 years married in 1968. The first thing I did everything I do is take my paycheck and do my husband and I was getting my loans would never happen again. I mean admittedly that was a while ago. I'm a completely different person. And in that sense the divorce and the extra responsibility has been very good for me although it was terrifying at first not having a choice. I think now I look back on it was a real advantage. I had to do it.

Did I think I was going to be a career person. No I was not going to be a career person. I was going to be a lady who stayed home with her children I did not see that as a sacrifice at all. I mean that's what I thought I was going to do as my level responsibility and jobs increased. I became more and more uneasy. I couldn't believe that people would take direction from me when I'm the person that changes diapers and fixes meals because I still thought of me as Joe my mother. Now and my children are older. They're both in school. I can start thinking of myself as Joe the career person Joe the provider. You know often I say to my kids our house is a democracy and I'm the queen. I mean that's just the way it works. I am in charge and I've never had a situation like that and I don't like to do it at work. The hardest part I think is having enough energy. It's just having enough money to go around. I'm very tired sometimes and my mind is always fragmented. You know when I'm at work I'm worrying about what's for dinner or how I'm going to get discounts or how I'm going to do

that when I'm at home and thinking about the meeting tomorrow. How's it going to work. I'm always divided. You know I fly home. The most frustrating thing is that the kids only see me for such a concentrated amount of time. They vie for my attention they don't like it when I'm on the phone. They make a lot of noise they distract me if I'm trying to get some work done. They want my attention and they're very competitive and very good about that. The phone started ringing here at 3:00 o'clock in the afternoon when Kelly gets home and then just gets home 45 minutes later and the phone started ringing. That's when my divided mind starts working you know half home half work all the time to get home. I'd love to just be able to complete a thought. That would be real time for myself and my son. Right right. We. Learned About two years into this that. Something has to go. And for me it's been the house the kids and job you know. And then comes the house. And sometimes if there's something left over that's for me. That doesn't happen to.

And maybe I'm a poor manager. I don't know what I'm happy with the way it works now. I'm I don't worry about the house like I used to. Joe depends on Kelly to take care of Jessica after school. He gets paid for it. But she depends on both the kids for a lot more. I don't have to tell me I'm ok that I'm doing all right. You know it works both ways. They are very good friends. I am having Jessica open her arms and hug me when I walk in the door in the evening is probably the best part of my day. And then sitting down with Kelly later when things have calmed down and he tells you how he's doing and what he'd like to do next week. I mean I need that. I cannot imagine not having a need for me to have them around. I dread the day that they're going to. Be fine. It's just not the male models. For my son. Or something I worried about for a while. For about six or eight months I went through this thing where I was sure that my son would be

feminine because he was being raised by a woman. But that was also the period that I thought I had to be two parents to that I was trying to be the mother and father. It just is not working. I I want to be a good model for my children and I think I am I just I don't expect too much. I don't I don't set my goals. From what I've seen from other people I have got a feel for what's good for my family and I go by that. And I I have finally learned to give up guilt. It's like you know it's like going I'm going on a diet you finally get rid of it you know. And I do not miss it one bit. It creeps back now and then but I have just given it up. I have no time for that. I have paid my dues in the gilt department. I'm just not going to do it anymore. This is. Something you have in Florida. Cousins. I fly. I doubt that the kids and I would have had the bond that they had. If it hadn't been for the fact that we're in this together. Nobody else gets credit for this. I appreciate the fact that my parents are so supportive my

sisters support. I will never forget how much they've helped but they don't know how many times we've cried together at home just the thrill of it. They don't quite understand the coping. I got a lot of very bad advice from people when I was first divorced. It was interesting that it all came from people who are very happily married and generally the advice was don't worry you're going to find a nice man some day. Well that is not what I wanted to hear. I wanted to hear someone say I've been through it. If I can do it you can do it. And I learned that you know when people say What do you say to wonder so single working women I say do not compare yourself to anyone else. That was a big mistake I made for a long time. I would see her and go how does she do it I could I couldn't possibly do that and it would jar me again and it would be like a little quake. I you know I can't I can't do that. But you can't you just it's not fair to yourself to compare yourself to someone else because you're always going to come up short. A lot of understanding I'm not in any kind of formal networking in anything like that. But there you know you can just. Walk down the street on a snow day and see a woman with a briefcase

and a child and you look at each other and you go oh I know I understand. That's all it takes. It makes you feel good because you just are not alone by any means. Work. You. Know. And Joe is not alone. According to the 1980s census the number of single parent families male and female has doubled since 1970 to 6.6 million. But most of society is still geared to the couple schools babysitting co-ops and even church groups assume the presence of a partner. Some organizations and counseling services however have begun to provide support specifically for the single parent. If you would like a list of the ones in the Maryland area. Write to us on working women and we'll send it to you. That's working women Owings Mills Maryland 2 1 1 1 7. We'll repeat that address later in the program.

I. The one thing about having your own family is that your the family your children come from and it is your planning that lets them get started in life. But with today's mortgages and taxes getting started with your plans isn't always so easy. That was on Jennifer Harper's mind in Silver Spring when she asked this week's question of our financial expert Alexandra Armstrong. She writes My child is 1 year old and I'd like to know if there's a way I can provide for her education and avoid taxes. Pretty tall order. Can she do that Alexandra. Yes and it's very important that she do it because by the time that 1 year old child is ready to go to school a state college will probably cost around 81000 and if she goes to a private college it will be more like a hundred seventy eight thousand seven hundred. Obviously she can't go to a private college right you must go to a state school. How about a six year old it would cost fifty one thousand and 112

600 for a private college. That's a little bit better. How about a 12 year old or getting a little closer I think 32000 for a state and 71000 for a private college. I don't know if anyone can do that these days. That's an awful lot of money. What sorts of things can you set up to provide that kind of financing. Well it's important that you start now and you can set it up and for the child you can set it up in the child's name because the child is a minor and under 18 you can't sign anything legally. So you have to set up than what is called a custodian account. Other words you Fran are a custodian for your daughter or something like that or that but the only problem with that is you put funds in that. And once the child turns 18 that all that money belongs to the child. And if the child decides to go off and marry the neighborhood bum that's tour de force that way. One of the other choices. The other choice that's used a lot nowadays called the crown trust and it really is a loan that you make to the child. Now since a child isn't of age you put it in a

trust for the child. And at any time you can pull the money back out. So that gives you the control of the money and you have control of that money forever and ever or is there a point when the child is 18. No no. You could never ever I could loan it to you today. It doesn't have to always be for children. It's a way of taking money from your bracket putting it over here. So the interest goes to the child's tax bracket instead of your own. Yes I wanted to know what those tax benefits were presumably particularly if the child's 1 year old with a very low tax bracket. And it's a thousand dollars before you're going to have to pay any taxes whereas you were presuming since you're working you're paying taxes. So what will happen is the money will accumulate in the child tax bracket. And if it's not being taxed it's earning that much more and accumulating them much faster. Can you give me a percentage or an idea of what the percentage of the tax bracket is for a child say as compared to an adult. Well it starts around the 13 14 percent range. So it would be really negligible because most adults are in the 30 40 percent range.

OK. How much would you suggest starting with how much should you put into this fund. Well one way you could look at is if you put a big lump sum you take 10000 you put it there and have it accumulate. Most of us don't have that $10000. So I suggest you start with say a hundred dollars and put and get in the habit of putting a hundred dollars or so in every month and that way. Let's say you put it in a mutual fund. Your money could accumulate for you if they take any gains the poor feel Foleo that could be added to it. Any dividends will accumulate for you. And you mentioned mutual funds. What other sorts of things could you invest in for the trial. Well if you want to be conservative you could have a savings account and get a better rate of interest in a money market fund. There are all sorts of things I don't recommend the growth oriented mutual fund because there's a chance you can do better than what you could earn in savings a little more risk involved. And you said earlier that you should start right away. Oh yes because the sooner you start the easier it is when that child does get ready to go to school. How should you set this fund up through a broker or through bank manager. Who should you go to.

Well really either way you could either set up a savings account with your bank and certainly now you have those birthday presents. Some people give cash rather than that can accumulate very nicely. Or you could set it up with a mutual fund with your stockbroker or financial adviser. Do you have a preference between the custodial account and the trust. Do you have one that you would advise one of the other. Yes I really do because I find the custodian account is easier. It really is an easier way the crowd trust you gotta go to a lawyer get a trust you've got to find someone to be the trustee who shouldn't be a family member. And that's a little more difficult. So if you're working with smaller amount of money the custodian probably work the best. In fact I had a friend who said the best way to do it she was accumulating money that way but she was saying she's just not telling her child how much she's accumulating for. Isn't that smart of her. Thank you very much Alexandra. Remember if you have any questions about your money whether you're refinancing the house or refurbishing your stock portfolio. Write to us on working women and we'll try to answer them for you. Right two working women Owings Mills Maryland

2 1 1 1 7 that's working women Owings Mills Maryland 2 1 1 1 7. Something just as important as saving money is saving time and investing it as wisely as possible. We asked for busy women to keep a diary of how they spent their time for one week. We called on a high school English teacher with two pre-school children an architect who single a nurse practitioner who's married without kids and another working mother of two. We broke down the time they spend into four areas work family home management and personal time. Hey Potten our English teacher said that keeping her time diary showed her how little time she spent on herself. Just 14 percent but it gave her one nice surprise. She found she is spending more time with her two children then she'd realized. Twenty eight percent Jean Spaight a tasting supervisor for McCormick also spent 28 percent of her time with her family but divided it between her two children and a sick mother. Both women wish

they had more quality personal time for reading and physical exercise. Our single architect Beverly Brandon insists on personal time because otherwise you'd go stark raving mad. It's obvious that she makes time for herself 42 percent Her main time management challenges setting priorities at work. Pat winter is a nurse practitioner who works in a multipurpose center for senior citizens. Although 22 percent of her time is spent on personal activities she finds she usually postpones it to the parts of the day or night when she is most fatigued. Now of course there's no easy answer to time management dilemmas but the solutions always sound so simple. We're going to explore some of them tonight with Pat mazurka author of time in time out. Time enough time management guide for women. Pat are these women's problems typical of working women.

I would say so. I think that the things that they mentioned especially the matter of not having enough personal time for themselves procrastinating about things that they wanted to have more time to do. Setting priorities that's what seems to come up over and over again. Why did you write this book. Because like so many women I felt pulled a thousand directions at once with two small children a house to maintain a husband a part time job a full time job Brownie troop the march of dimes or the little volunteer activities you get involved in. And I went looking for time management books that would be a whole life approach. I found books for the busy male executive or a whole chapter on how to deal with paperwork how to get more time for yourself by giving more work to your secretary. And I really needed something delegating to children and so I decided that perhaps by writing such a book I could get my own act together and share some good answers with other women. Do you think women's problems are different from men in managing time. I think that we view them differently. We become a little bit more overwhelmed by them. We feel guilty about them.

We it's been said many times that men have a wife at home to take care of the house. A woman has a woman doesn't have a wife a woman is doing all the things all the time. You know a lot of us think we know some time management techniques but we don't practice them. Why do you think that happens. I think that even though we know what we should be doing at a certain time we often feel guilty about what we're not doing. We tend to procrastinate on things that are really big issues in our lives while doing too many of the small things we worry a lot. Perfectionism is another thing I found out much to my surprise friend that that it was the a lot of the psychological things that we do that sabotage our time use more than the physical. For instance what sorts of things. Well procrastinating again. People everyone procrastinates really do. Yes but women feel guilty about it. Women

women instead. From my experience instead of really concentrating on the good things that we are accomplishing we tend to get overwhelmed by all the things that we're not doing. We can't even enjoy the things that were getting done we're getting good. Yeah exactly. Now we looked at these four case studies you read there their time management diaries what sorts of things did you learn and can we glean from from that information they gave us. Well one very reassuring thing and this should be to them also that they're doing a lot of the right things. I think that people don't realize till they start looking at how they're spending their day. Again all the things that they do accomplish. Several women said hey I'm spending more time with my children and I'm enjoying it. And hopefully they are realizing this is a big priority. They. The fact that several of them talk about being tired and wishing they had more personal time for their own interests for exercise for reading should be a clue that they should make that as much of a priority as the things that they're trying to do for everyone else just so that they can say hey I

do have a well-balanced life that's so hard to do that when people are pulling at you from different areas to say I'm really going to take this time out and do something for myself is so difficult because we want to put. Someone else ahead of our own interests. How do we get over that. I think maybe by planning your day in the first place so that you have time set aside for yourself perhaps making a commitment to someone else calling a friend and arranging to have lunch or attend a state later on. Schedule a schedule some time for yourself in there right with everything else in making any. Are you suggesting that everyone make a time management diary for themselves for a week just to see what's going on. I would like to suggest that it's a very useful thing to do to learn things about yourself. However as the women who did it themselves would probably be the first to admit it's very tedious and boring. And as you're writing all these things down you're saying I should be doing and why you writing them all down. But it can be a very good self-awareness tool as to how you're

spending your time now. OK. What are some of the strategies that that you would suggest aside from writing making your diary I mean what are some of the specifics that we can do. Well again as in writing the diary making a list at the beginning of the day helps you get some of those little niggling details the things that you want to do. Sending a birthday card or making a phone call to someone making the dentist appointment gets it out of your head and onto paper. That's a good strategy. It also helps you set priorities because you get yourself a nice long list and you look at it and say OK what are the two or three things on this list that if I do them it will make the whole day worthwhile. And what are the things that I don't have to do. People talk about writing lists and then putting a b c sets of priorities. I found that one of the strategies in the book in the book and I found out that category C which stands for can be put off that creative procrastination is every bit as important. I thought when I first wrote the book that

I was going to show myself and other women how to do it all how to be super woman. I found out the time management is not only identifying the things that you've got to do but also the things that you don't have to do things that you can let go of or pay somebody else to do and someone else are calling on your friends and you should be brave enough to do that. That's so hard. Brave enough for you find I have found that when I ask friends for a favor they ask me back and that feels good. It's a kind of a networking a sharing of responsibility. There's no reason for us to shoulder everything alone. I know that it's so difficult because we want it we want to take care of everything and we always feel like we're imposing on people when we ask that sort of thing of them. That's true. If the Superwoman Syndrome whether or not any of us really identify with that TV commercial with you know frying the bacon and bringing it all home the whole bit we all secretly want to be like that. And and I think it's a good thing to strive for but when you don't quite measure up to it we shouldn't be too dismayed by it either.

OK. Is it easy to change the psychological situation. I know we've been talking practically about the sorts of things you can do but it's still the psychology I wake up in the morning and I think of 20 things I need to do and haphazardly I managed to accomplish five of them and then I feel awful about it especially things like writing letters which never ever get done. How did the psychology of it is so hard. It's like I know what to do. I know how to do it. And now I have to make the first step and that's just writing down that list is that the first thing we do. Writing down the list is a good start. And having done that you should congratulate yourself that you've done that. We've got to give ourselves credit for what we are doing. When you find yourself worrying about deadlines that are approaching. Tell yourself this is stupid I shouldn't be worrying. I should be taking some kind of action anything at all that will help me get through same. When you're feeling guilty about something that you're not doing tell yourself. Feeling guilty is a stupid use of my time. Change it into some positive

energy and I think in some ways the only way to get rid of this cycle of psychological blocks is to say I'm not going to do it. Just move on to something else. One of the people in the survey I think was the architect said that she really felt that her time was dispersed by other people at work. For instance how do you start to get control over that when other people dictate what you're supposed to be doing in a given day. Well you know by discovering that she made a good observation herself she made a note to herself in that time diary I must talk to my boss about this. When other people are are sabotaging our time. And you realize that what's happening. You've got to not fret about it and confront them and say we have a problem here. And let me tell you what my side of it is and can we work something out a little bit absurd. Yes. One of the things that one of the niggling points that I always have problems with is just blocking and things. I hate to do like the housework the laundry. How do we get

around doing those things and doing them and accomplish thing accomplishing them getting them over with. Well you mentioned you mentioned taking the first step before sometimes especially something really boring like housework that just goes on and on and on. Just breaking into very small tasks. This is called The Swiss cheese approach. Blow holes into your big tasks. Don't think in terms of cleaning the house. Think in terms of making the bed or wiping off the kitchen counters and then after you do that give yourself some kind of a little reward you know kind of jazzed up the day by doing nice things for yourself. So we should reward ourselves for the things we do accomplish instead of worrying so much about the things we haven't accomplished. Exactly. And another. Another time management strategy that turned out to be very important to me. Is is being aware of the fact that there are some times of the day when psychologically and physically you are a real dynamo. You can accomplish practically anything. Then you have low end times of the day. For me

it's three o'clock in the afternoon when my you know my eyes are fuzzy I can't think straight. I just feel like I'm in a small coma at that time. Don't do anything things very demanding exactly that save up the less demanding things for that wonderful day. Thank you very much Pat. Taking charge of your time and taking charge of your life. Our long term goals for everyone. Next week on working women we'll examine the nuts and bolts of something more specific. Starting a day care center will discuss how much insurance you need and explore guilt and a working mother will never end. Probably not. We'll see you then. Working women has been brought to you by a general support grant from J.C. Penney serving America's working women from coast to coast. Remember. We want to hear from you. So white working women always knows Marilyn. 2 1 1 1 7.

The I of this program was produced by the Maryland Center for Public Broadcasting which is solely responsible for its content. Working women is brought to you by a general support grant from J.C. Penney serving America's working women from coast to coast.

Suppose you met a model at the Zoli agency in New York. Her accounts were Piper Heidsieck champagne De Beers diamonds and Clairol hair color. How old would she be. 21 24. Maybe a young 30. Would you believe. 51. I'm the mother of seven. That's the career of Kaylyn Pigford. And she didn't even start work until she was 45. The trials of the re-entry woman sheltering your income without buying a house and hurdling your way to the top. These are the topics this week on working women. Don't you.

Good evening I'm friend Dorne and welcome to working women re-entering the job market is an unnerving experience. Should you decide to go back to work or begin working when you're over 35. You're most likely spend some time looking in the mirror and wondering who would hire me. But what about the budget you've been balancing and the voter registration drive you organized. If you persist you will find that the skills you've been volunteering away may be worth money. Every re-injury story has different circumstances and yet each one shares certain emotional dilemmas and discoveries. Elouise shuttler was 19 when she dropped out of nursing school to marry a med student. By the time she was 28 she had three children and had done every club and association there was to do. Then a friend dragged her to a painting class where she became in her own words intoxicated with art but painting as a hobby wasn't quite enough in the art and I was really getting into that. But I was feeling a little desperate for the fact that I wanted something more.

I just didn't feel very fulfilled. Would it be a job or would I go to school you know and I would talk audience and item about it I just drove people crazy talking about it. And then a very good friend of mine said to me one day I've heard Put up or shut up. So when she was 32 I always went back to college where everyone in her class was 19. She followed a B.A. with a masters in painting. My husband has been totally supportive through this whole thing really wanting me to go on to law school. And was encouraging me to go that way. And I said you know they'll be ridiculous. I'm an artist. And I want to earn my money through my art you know which any artist is going to laugh hysterically on hearing that. Because artists don't earn a lot of money. They work in other occupations. Elouise stuck to art. She booked her own showings gave lectures and

volunteered for art organizations. Soon she found herself being executive director of several of them and lobbying on Capitol Hill. After seven years as a volunteer she landed her first real job. At 43. I took a look at myself and I said well you know if you're ever going to get a paid job you went back to school because you wanted to earn money. You better do it pretty quick. And I took a look at some of the skills that I had gained as a lobbyist and in managing organizations and as. An. Organizer for women in the arts traveling around the country and learning to do those kinds of political skills and set them down on a piece of paper which was one of the toughest things I've ever had to do. How do you take something that you've done for free and put it on a piece of paper so that somebody will pay you for it. But you can do it. And out of that I got a job in

1979 as a campaign director for the National League of Women Voters. And I was lucky because not only did I get my first professional paid job but I had the opportunity to work for an issue that I really cared about. Eloise's job with the league lasted three years and ended when E.R. died last year. She still wants to work but she's found that having had one job doesn't make getting that second one any easier. The first three months I needed to be here I wanted to work in my studio and to put together a body of work. I wanted to do my housewife thing and get everything back in order and clean and well taken care of. And I wanted to give myself some time. I've done that now. So why am I not back out there. I'm not back out there because I plainly and ambivalent

about why I want to go and whether I want to go back out there and the pool to stay at home is very strong. But the pool to get a job again to have the self respect of making my own money and contributing to the family is very important to me. But. To tell you the truth I'm afraid that I've accomplished a lot of things. I've proven to myself that I can do many things successfully. But when it comes to putting my skills down on a resume to sending it out that I find the possibility of rejection very scary I don't want to be rejected. It hurts. It hurts a lot to be turned down for a job. And what I'm trying to do is to come to the place that I can say should pre-Big

job. You don't have to know at all when you start. They're not hiring an expert. They want the skills that you've proven. That you have and you can build from there. Now when I get myself sold on that. I'll go for the big. I. I get asked you know what what is this problem that you have. And your next meal is not depending on whether or not you have a job or not. That's true. I am fortunate. In that. I'm in a marriage. And my next meal is not dependent on my paycheck but my self-respect is. I sort of laugh today when I look back at where I was when I went back to college because I didn't make any definite career plans. I wasn't charting for where I was going to be in five years or 10 years.

And I went in to get the art training which as I look back at it now after the organization things and the lobbying that I have done was really an acceptable choice for me was acceptable as a woman to choose at that time to be an artist. And looking back. The 10 year chart now of the political activity I sometimes and I. Regret that I didn't go to law school but the pool is is that I am an artist. And I love doing my art work and I guess the real problem is is that I want it all. I want to be able to be an artist. And I want to be able to. Continue to grow and a management career and in working in legislation and in finding a way that I can have that double life. And I don't think I'm too different for many women. Who also want it

all. The problem comes is we really sometimes are scared to say it. And we're scared to really look at ourselves and say I'm smart. I've got a lot on the ball. I've got a lot of strength and I want every bit of it that I can get. And that's tough. Because it's hard to come to that point to be able to say that because when you do you may not get it all. And you may be disappointed. But I'd rather go. I think for half a feast Well Elouise wasn't disappointed. A month after we interviewed her she landed a job as director of development for the National Abortion Rights Action League. The problems of the re-entry woman along with the displaced homemaker have given rise to a number of programs around the country similar to New Directions for women in Baltimore which offers a career counseling and job

placement program for homemakers who have decided they want to make a living. If you're trying to break into the job market and don't know quite where to begin working women would like to help. Write to us and we'll send you these booklets turning volunteer skills into job credentials and continuing education in Maryland as well as a list of services in the area directed toward reentry women. That's working women Owings Mills Maryland 2 1 1 1 7. We'll repeat that address later in the program. Well life may kill you miss Hepburn but not before the IRS tries to. Traditionally people have bought houses as tax shelters for their income. You invest in a 30 year mortgage and you take the interest off your taxes. But in these days of the $900 mortgage payment. I wish mine were so low the burden of owning a house may seem just as bad as forking over 30 percent of your income to Uncle Sam.

That was on the mind of Gwen Moore of Washington who asked this week's question for our financial planner Susan brachial Fulton. Gwen writes How do I keep hold of my income without the benefit of mortgage interest or other significant deductions. Is there another way. Is there another way when there really isn't another way to keep hold of your income without significant deductions. Mortgage interest is certainly one of the options but there are a lot of good deductions that are written into the law by Congress on purpose because are in the national interest a lot of people use to build wealth and to keep their money in their hands rather than sending it to the federal government. These are tax shelters. These are called tax shelters Yes and exactly a tax shelter something that helps you to shelter your money from taxes. No. What are some of the ways other than mortgage and we'll get to that a little bit later in the discussion. What are some of the other ways you can shelter your money. Well the federal government wants you to do is it wants you to invest in American industry. It wants you to invest in your your area of

civic responsibility. I don't want you to take care of yourself for retirement. So it builds incentives into investments in American industry into buying and building apartment houses or or factories or equipment. Or drilling for oil wells and very often people invest in those two limited partnerships I don't want you to take care of yourself in your retirement years so it gives you incentives to IRAs or kilos if you're self-employed or employer tax deferral devices with withholding to help you save toward retirement and those are deductions. And it also does things like say that income from municipal bonds is not federally taxable which allows municipalities to float interest rates lower. And at the same time allows you the opportunity to get income without paying federal taxes. So we have things like bonds and we have investment real estate that sort of thing. And then we have limited partnerships with the other

partnerships or why. And I'm sure we'll be talking about later in the course of the program but limited partnerships are a way for a group of investors to get together and share in investing in something and as they share and investing it investing in it they have the opportunity to take advantage of interest deductions as you do with your home mortgage but also depreciation if it's real estate or perhaps investment tax credits if it's equipment. So what they have the opportunity to do as a group is pool their resources and have the benefits of the tax shelter and come back to them individually. OK. Now let's talk about interest on mortgages for a minute. Exactly how does that work and why is that useful. Well know I think it's a part of the American dream that every American should have the opportunity to own their own home. And so the federal government has written the largest tax break or a tax incentive ever in allowing you to deduct the interest you pay on buying your home from your

taxes. So the government subsidizes homeownership. The thing we have to keep in mind is that the goal of any of this is not not paying taxes but in fact accumulating wealth. Oh that's the hard part. The hard part. You to do that. So what we want to do we get we make a decision. A home is something we want. We also need to take a look at it as an economic investment and we need to say to ourselves is this going to appreciate grow in value rapidly enough so that the Government can I share in something that gains in value or is the deduction. People will say well I get to write it off and I say well that's nice. I write offs lovely. But did you make any money on it or are you and the government just throwing money down the drain. What should be sort of the bottom line and whether you should invest in these and other types of deductions or whether you should invest in a 30 percent tax bracket. So if we take a look at that and we say if I'm in the 30 percent tax bracket as a rule of thumb if I'm in the 30 percent tax bracket and I have a 12 percent mortgage I should plan

on the property I own my home appreciating at 8 percent a year. If it if I don't think my home is going to appreciate 8 percent a year there are probably other investments I could make that will accumulate wealth for me and in a more satisfactory way. And you also said earlier when we were talking that you should want to love your home and that's the main reason you should do it. Sure. And be able to live in it for at least three years I think. My sense is that with closing costs and the things you paid a realtor to buy or sell it you really need to plan on living in it three years even if it's appreciating 8 percent a year in order to break even. Thank you very much. I hope that gives Gwen some food for thought. Remember if there's any financial advice you've always wanted to get but were afraid to ask. Write to us on working women and we'll try to get it for you. Right two working women Owings Mills Maryland 2 1 1 1 7 that's working women Owings Mills Maryland 2 1 1 1 7. Tonight's commentary and goal setting is by Betty Randall Riley a behavior management

consultant who specializes in career and individual development. I began to recognize the importance of goal setting. When I was in the fifth grade at that time my goal was to be the fifth grade spelling bee champion and then the eighth grade. I wanted to be valedictorian of my graduating class. I worked hard and I was determined and I accomplished those goals. But I also learned the lesson. I realize that goal setting was going to be very important if I was to accomplish something. I wanted to end my life in my adult life I have found it to be very helpful. It keeps me in a direct motivated. Develop my self-confidence and it helps me to focus on both life and career activities. I really want to do and most importantly it helps me to maintain my zest for living and loving and learning. Goal setting focuses and mobilizes your energy. But often women find their goals

bumping up against visible and not so visible barriers which keep us down on the farm. Or at least in middle rather than upper management. What are these barriers. Can we bring any of them down or do we just have to wait for society to catch up with our goals. With us tonight is Phyllis Schwartz the president and founder of catalyst a national organization based in New York which for 21 years has been devoted specifically to fostering the full participation of women and corporate and professional life. Ms Schwarz apparently doesn't believe in barriers in her career she has founded the National Scholarship service and fund for Negro students and the vice president in charge of production for a heavy manufacturing firm and is nationally recognized as an expert on women and employment issues. Good evening Elise and welcome to working women. Tell me Tell me a little bit more about catalysed. Tell me about what you're doing and how you are improving the workplace for women.

We're basically concerned with the upward mobility of women in business in the professions. So what we try to do a catalyst is really to understand what women are experiencing and what are the barriers that they're facing and how can they become more productive and a more profitable resource to their employers. Because the more profitable they are the more they'll be recruited and trained and moved up in the corporate. You're looking at women all over the corporate structure. We're looking at women in management and executive positions. What are some of the barriers that catalyst has filed. Well I think the major barriers are women. The fact that women are. Haven't had the experience to set their priorities and their ambivalence about whether they really can leave home and come into the workforce is a is a barrier that they are used to planning for their careers and pursuing. There's a virtual absence of childcare in our country of affordable child care in our country that is quality. And I think the stereotypes that served

us well in the past when the traditional family with a single breadwinner I was at home. Are are no longer appropriate today were men and women work who are some of these women. I mean what what is the age range. You've already talked about what they're doing in the corporate world. Well I think that the age that is is most important to look at today's the young woman who's coming out of college and graduate school intent on success and ready to work for it. And when she comes comes up against these barriers she really has to swim upstream in a world that was created by men for men. And. When that begins to converge with her desire to have children. At that point she there's a great deal of attrition. Lots of women as this women's right out of college are those the one you're looking ones you're looking at are out of graduate school. We're looking at them as they come out because that's the Vanguard we're looking at the women who are there in middle management because those are the ones who experience the

corporate world in the professional world in recent years. And we're looking at women at the top to see how are they performing and how did they get there and what changes it will make it easier for them in the future. And all of them are meeting these barriers at some point or in some. And if we don't look at different ages and learn from them then we're not going to be able to remove them from younger women. You talked about the decision to have a child which I know is a very difficult one for a woman who is career oriented and you give us a little bit more information about that. Do women start to tend to plateau at that point or do they drop out of the job force or what happens. Well you know for a man to have a career and a family has been the tradition but for a woman this is anxiety provoking. She traditionally has been the caretaker so that when she is beginning to move up in her career. She suddenly feels that she'd like to have a child as well but she's afraid of jeopardizing her career. On the other hand she

isn't at all sure about. Who's going to take care of that child how much is her husband going to participate. Is it going to be possible for her to carry it all in in your studies or the people you have looked at are women doing it anyway. And are they dropping out for a while or are they going on with their careers or what decisions do they ultimately make. The interesting thing is that the higher the level women the less time she tends to take off because she gets confused about which is her personal her which is her corporate her and once you start to think about taking time off to put yourself in the position of the women who and the men who are reporting to her and says gee I can handle that as an employer. But I think that we did a study that shows that 80 percent of women come back within four months of having their first child. Whether that's good or not I'm not sure. I think we have to observe it. How long do you think will we'll have to wait in order to see if these are the right decisions. Well I think it's going to take a lot of time I don't think that we yet know what are the

consequences of the various childcare alternatives that we're thinking about today and how much are men going to participate in the rearing of children. That's a critically important thing and we can't really measure it because. There is such a dearth in the country today. As I say of quality affordable care. But we have to ferret out those situations where experimental and innovative things are happening and watch them carefully and learn from them. Is there anything women can do about that particular. Problem. I think so. I think that the most important thing women can do is shed their ambivalence as to order their priorities and decide what what do as an individual woman want there are no rules so that if I feel there are no rules filly's I think not. I think we've moved from an era when we were very circumscribed when we could have everything we could have a husband and children. A little job or volunteer work. Today our world has expanded. We can really be anything but we can't have everything. So I think that's the trick is

recognizing that you can't have everything. So the young girl today who's in college who says I want to be the chief financial officer of a corporation. I want to take two years off each for each of my two children I want to be an active parent. I want to help with limiting nuclear proliferation. I want time with my husband and for myself. I'm realistic. But aren't there women out there who are trying to do that and some of them believe that they are. I mean it's the superwoman complex right. Well I think super woman is a myth that we invented and we better shared I think much more important is that we order our priorities and we understand that we have to make tradeoffs that we can't have it all. So that woman that whose career suddenly accelerates who has to travel who has to work late to work weekends and who says I'm willing to be the second player in my child's life. She's being realistic. The woman who says I'd like to stay home until my children grow up and are in college. But I know that I I don't

know what I'm going to do with my life when they leave home. And I even know what I'll do to support myself with my hoes. If my marriage breaks up. She's be realistic. You I think the important thing is to know that it can work but you're not trying to be a superwoman but that you have to make some sacrifices but that you have to make sacrifices. Tell us some things about the corporate world that women don't necessarily know and should. Well I think one of the most important thing women don't recognize about the corporate world is that it's a lot of propaganda that women are making 59 cents on the dollar on land for every dollar a man makes a woman makes only 59 cents as a result of this discrimination. It's not as a result of discrimination it's a result of where women work so that it's terribly important that women now they are beginning to train themselves for higher level positions. Thirty three percent of women are MBA MBA students now. 15 percent of engineering students are women they're beginning to prepare themselves.

Wait a minute wait a minute. Aren't there women out there who have all sorts of suits going on in the law courts about discrimination and pay a woman doing the same job that a man is doing and not getting as much money. Well I think that's been very much distorted for the most part. Women are. Women in a in the same grade level as men are earning the same in a cluster at the lower ends of that great grade level. But it's where women work. Women are going into the service areas rather than the technical areas and they are going into staff jobs rather than line jobs. They are going into dead end jobs. Women have to start to think if growth is important to them if earning a lot is important to them they've got to go into the fields where high earnings are possible. And this is a terribly important thing. The other thing that I do want to say about what's important for women to know about the corporate world. Is that it's very much in the corporations interest to sort to remove these barriers because

the barriers impede productivity and the productivity is impeded profits are impeded. Thank you very much Felice. Next week on working women will be looking at a major barrier to anyone success. The job interview will be discussing real estate partnerships with our financial expert and the mysterious rites of a corporate board. How do you get invited to sit on one. Is it worth your while if you do. Join us and find out. We. Remember. We got to hear from you. So white working women always knows Marilyn. 2. 1 1. 1 7. This program was produced by the Maryland Center for Public Broadcasting which is solely

responsible for its content. Working women has been brought to you by a general support grant from J.C. Penney serving America's working women from coast to coast