Evening Exchange; Race in the 21st Century

Hi I'm in college Anandi welcome to this special edition of evening exchange. It was a 19 0 0 3 that the renowned African-American scholar W E B Dubois wrote the problem of the 20th century is the problem of the color line. And even though the first half of the century saw two world wars it was the movement of the black brown and yellow peoples of the world for independence and freedom that characterized the century the independence movements of Africa and Asia and the historic civil rights movement in the United States. However the problem of the color line was not resolved in the 20th century. And so we here at evening exchange thought that at the beginning of the 21st century it would be appropriate to look ahead to see if the problem of color could be resolved in the century ahead. We assembled four great scholars to do it. And what you are about to see now that we have settled in to the 21st century is that discussion. Hi I'm Cojo and welcome to evening exchange. The results of the 2000 census

are in and those who pretended the face of America was either black or white and do so no longer. During the last decade interracial marriage has quadrupled. Hispanics gained political visibility and more Americans recognize their multi-racial heritage. Is it time to redefine race in America. With me to address that question and more are four of our best thinkers on the subject of race and ethnicity. Frank Wu is a professor at the Howard University School of Law. Good to have you here. My pleasure. Judith Liston is former executive director for President Clinton's initiative on race hardly a professor at American University in Washington College of Law. Good to have you here. Delighted to be here. Suzanne Harjo is president of the Morningstar Foundation and a columnist for Indian Country Today. Welcome Suzanne. Thank you. And Raul is us is Saghir is the president and CEO for the National Council of La Raza. Welcome. Good to be here. And thank you all for joining us. As my staff discussed the show one day during the past week one of

our associate producers who is the committee that defines race. Of course there isn't a committee that puts forward such a definition but we can talk a little bit about the history of how race has been defined from a legal standpoint and within the social context of the United States. I don't know. You might want to start that Judy. Well at this conference. Well I'm not sure that I will be able to provide in the amount of time we have really good history but I think it's safe to say that the issue of race whatever it means has been with us since even before the country's founding. It was certainly here when European Americans arrived on these shores. And that the American Indians and recognize there was some difference in view it's been with us since the days of slavery when the physical and skin color or characteristics of Africans in this country make clear that they were

not in fact Europeans. But the the the definition of race I think has changed over time and I I it's certainly it's something that we know has no biological meaning anymore. It's a social construct that has been used basically to develop a sort of a hierarchy of who is powerful and who is not. And I think it continues today that we have a lot more diversity in this country to today than ever before and the issues of race its meaning is still very much with us. Well I find it interesting that in the census of 1860 there were only three categories of race black white and quadroon which mean that the three guests at this table besides you and the U.S. would not have been included at all during that census. Frank how do you feel about that. Well I think what we're seeing is a shift. We're seeing a recognition that the nation has never been and is now literally black and white. The question is

not Is that what reality looks like but what will we make of that. And it's a real struggle to make them positive rather than negative. In 1860 there were certainly Native Americans in 1860 there were even Asian immigrants. In 1860 there were certainly people with no background who may not even have considered themselves part of what was U.S. territory at that time. So certainly even in 1860 if you wanted to just be factually correct you would have had many many more categories. I think what's happened though is we're seizing control over this definition of ourselves. It used to be government bureaucrats define race scientists did so in sort of a pseudo scientific way they had these elaborate charts and tables and divide the world into dozens and dozens of different racial groups and people tried to impose the definition. What we're seeing now is people are taking that definition into their own what is missing is 30 different racial categories on the census forms as opposed to the three that existed in 1960. So I get it. And it means that

people who are Latino may define themselves as black white other or all of the above. Indeed. And we have a hard time understanding race as it is to find itself in the United States because Latinos have a very different concept of race. We we we we use race of it in the city in both ways you know interchangeably. And it comes with the fact that Spain was conquered by many many ethnic groups of many races. There was half of it was under Arab control Arab Black control if you will or if you had more control if you will. And so when the Spaniards came there the European Spaniards came through through this country they intermarried with Native Americans and eventually with African-Americans so we we have a very difficult time understand the American concept of a race because to us culture is much more important than race. And so we we use racial terms in a less serious way. I mean it would not be unusual for somebody to refer

to me as a negro I mean backward and it would not mean anything in particular would just mean a term of endearment perhaps in our song celebrate these kinds of things. The notion that if you're seven eighths white then one eighth black makes you black is ludicrous to us you know. So we're not you have to admit that the more we were present in this country the more we adapt to the racial distinctions that are made in this country. But we started out with a very different sense of what race is all about we're much more focused on ethnicity. Susanna Argile maybe it's appropriate that you speak last because you and your people were here first this construct of race and that were something to define is one that was introduced into your life. Well yes into our countries in the United States and bordering the United States territory. We have over 550 Native Nations today and we won't talk about what was here before.

Some 50 million who are no longer here. And we are political beings political creatures for everything to do with the United States and with our dealings with other countries amongst ourselves. We are nations we are citizens. We don't define ourselves racially. My mother is I'm from a mixed marriage. My mother is Cheyanne and my dad is Muskogee creek and now we don't and I'm a citizen of the Cheyenne and Arapaho tribes of Oklahoma. So if if my mother wants to get a kidney dialysis treatment from the Indian Health Service because of all the land that the United States acquired from the Cheyenne's she has to prove that she is a citizen of the Cheyenne nation. So it's not a racial matter. The census is the only entity within the federal system that calculates this racially and that's just my self-description. And it's interesting to me that now everyone wants to be Indian.

We will discuss that during most of our conversation brings it back to the Clinton administration initiative on race to the it which was served as executive director. Given all that we have just heard it seems to me that from the very beginning this was an overly ambitious posture. I think I can say honestly now that you're absolutely right. But at the same time I think it was a very important initiative for the president to have introduced. I mean we knew in 1997 when the initiative began that we were already as I have indicated the most racially and ethnically diverse country in the world. We're certainly diverse and have been diverse as in terms of our religious affiliations and the demographers have been predicting for some time but we are in fact seeing on the census the 2000 census that we are going to become even more diverse that is to say people who are defining themselves differently in terms of race and

ethnicity. The president felt and I agree that since we were in a period of relative economic prosperity it was important to try to address these issues the issues about racial heritage racial history which has been a very sorry history of racial injustice to try to sort of swept through other kinds of issues that we need to confront as a country and to do it constructively to try to understand the fact that even though there are laws on the books that say there should be no discrimination on the basis of race or national origin. In fact our institutions are such that they exist. They reflect the kind of racial legacy racial injustice legacy. And so we started out one trying to make bring the message one that while we are very diverse should be seen as a strength not a weakness and we should also begin to understand that we probably have a lot more in common than we have. That is different.

And those are the discussions the dialogues that we attempted to have. We also wanted to have some impact on the policies federal policies dealing with race and I think we were less successful than I'd hoped we would be that many people hoped we would be on that score. If I had my druthers I think I would have started the conversation in the White House rather than the rest of the country. Why is that. Well because I think there was not a deep enough understanding of how complex and nuance the issues of race and ethnicity or other are just not just a matter of inviting people to sit down and talk about it. And somehow Eureka there would be some understanding. And it was very difficult. First of all to get people to come to the table and then when they are at the table to figure out how to talk about these issues in a way that would be constructive. And that's because given the history of our country race has played such a central role in some really seminal events in our country I like to go back to Suzan Harjo for a second because you made the

reference to the 50 million Native Americans or Indians that inhabited this country. And now there are so much fewer and a lot of people feel that was the result of genocide that the nation has that kind of history and that that genocide was based on the notion of race. Yes. Race and real estate. It was that people came from elsewhere and they weren't bringing any land with them when they came and they wanted us to move or didn't mind mowing us down. And in order to get at the real estate. So it was always about greed and avarice and in the case of the other some the episodes that I'm going to talk about the peculiar institution of slavery it was about the accumulation of wealth. But once again as in the case of Native Americans race with the most visible defining factor between oppressed and oppressed and it would appear that much of the legal history of how we define race in this

country stemmed from that even while I agree with you although I must say as awful as slavery was in this country as much as it put black Americans at a substantial disadvantage in terms of our future the period that followed slavery was in many ways many ways even worse. And I don't want to overstate that but the fact that after the 13th 14th and 15th Amendments were enacted the treatment of black Americans was as citizens was so contrary to what we Americans said are the principles and values by which we leave we live. And so and I think many people forget that we heard throughout the time of the race initiative from many white Americans that you know I wasn't even here my family wasn't even here during slavery and I don't feel as though I need to do or say anything to deal with

it I have no apology that I feel I need to make when in fact we know that white Americans today have benefited from the discrimination the segregation the oppression the injustice that kept black Americans and other racial minorities from having access to opportunity and economic capital into this picture comes an increasing number of Asians and Asian Americans into a picture that is already being framed along racial lines. Talk a little bit about the approach that will take that issue. You know we're going to make a transition in our country that no other nation on the face of the earth has ever made in human history within the lifetimes of those sitting at this table. This country will cease to have a single identifiable racial majority at least in numerical terms. And then something happened in the 21st and it will happen very soon. We're seeing it in major cities already. We're seeing it in California we're seeing it on college

campuses. This census data confirms that these trends are irreversible. Now I think for many people of color this is a reason to applaud but for many whites it's a cause for great alarm. You know there are these calls to close the borders stop letting people in the country is changing too fast. There are a lot of worries and anxieties. I think when you bring people into this picture a very complex picture to start with as we've already talked to. There are two ways you can do that. One is negative one is positive. What happens with Asian-Americans is all too often demagogues bring us into the picture for negative reasons. They say all those Asians you know they're really smart. They work hard. They've got those small businesses and they've pulled themselves up by their bootstraps. They're polite. They don't complain they've got all these complimentary things to say about Asian immigrants and you kind of scratch your head and wonder what is this about. Why why are they lavishing praise on Asian-Americans. You realize it's false praise it's disingenuous. It really sends a message it always has and still does the message is one of insulting

African-Americans. It's kind of a subtle veiled way of saying they made it. Why can't you. That's the negative way of doing this of pitting groups against each other and sort of divide and conquer strategy and we see that all the time people talk about blacks versus Browns. And there are tensions that we ought to address but they shouldn't be ratcheted up by outsiders saying racial minority groups must fight against each other. There's a positive way to do this is through bridge building coalition work especially given the fact that virtually every racial minority group that came into the country came in in a slightly different way I found it was interesting that one of the first statistics that the census put out was the comparison of the Hispanic or Latino population with the African-American population. And in the minds of some people that was a negative way of looking at the situation because it seemed to suggest or certain people certainly inferred that this meant that these two groups would now be vying for well what might be a shrinking piece of the pie so to speak.

Indeed it was portrayed as a race we never saw it as a race and now as Frank indicated there are some tensions and it would be wrong for us to ignore those tragedies but we don't we shouldn't allow these kinds of extraneous framing of the issue to divide us even further. If I may. Let me just mention one thing Judy talked a lot about the oppression based on slavery. And I think it's important to do it to give a wider perspective about oppression that we share it with Indian brothers and sisters and that is oppression based on conquest. I mean we don't understand this in this country and I frankly think the commission ever quite got got this point that that when you you going to take real estate from some people you have to find a way to demean them. You have to way find a way to justify taking away real estate. And that's what happened with Hispanic Americans. That's what whether it's in southwestern Puerto Rico and Cuba in the Philippines in the Rhine or other

places. That's what have we made of Americans and we just don't quite understand that because we as Americans or perceive of ourselves as imperialist as people who have avarice and that ilk we want to think ourselves resources be exceptional and pure of heart and all the rest of the things that go with that. But when I say that I think one of the challenges is that we need to educate ourselves about that. And that's one of the things that we hope to do of course not realizing how huge an undertaking that would be with the Advisory Board in its in its report to the president did make clear that you know how we come to this situation we find ourselves in from in different ways. Conquest slavery immigration. The fact of the matter is that there is great promise I think for building this collaboration this coordination coalition building because what we have in common in addition to the same sort of aspirations etc. for ourselves and our

children is a shared history of oppression discrimination and its future and a achieve and a shared future in overcoming and getting rid of the disparities that now exist in areas of education health housing economic opportunity. And it really is disparities I think will help us understand as we eliminate them. You know when we've truly become Americans in addition to having the kind of heritage that we each bring with one of the things we have to do is to reconcile that view of history that we share. Because there was a great deal of disagreement over our history and the perception of our history. We're going to have to take a short break. When we come back we will continue this conversation about race America and the future. Stay with us. We'll be right back. You're watching a special encore edition of evening Xchange race. 21st

century. Stay with us. Welcome back to our conversation about race you know whether we are talking about conquest or slavery or immigration. The threat that unites people of color. It would appear in the United States is to some extent reflected in the fact that this conquests this land taking immigration

patterns were associated with notions of superiority and inferior inferiority and now we have the results of the human genome study saying that there is no statistical difference in the gene structure of humans across race lines or across ethnic lines. That seems to dispel the whole basis of race science and the myth of superior and inferior races that we would not be having this conversation. We're not for the fact that that myth has played it and continues to play a critical role in our culture as a whole. So when you talk about building coalitions that implies that we still share something in common and that something is fighting against the notion of our own inferiority. Right. I think that's one of the key things that we share in common across racial lines that is those of us who are part of the so-called minority racial groups by the way a concept minority. I think it's kind of just have to disappear sometime soon. But you know these

superstitions and myths and stereotypes that were developed really to basically retain the myths of superiority are very hard to kill off. I mean they exist in so many places in addition to the minds of many Americans and indeed unfortunately even we who are African-American or Hispanic or Asian or American Indian sometimes ourselves have internalized those stereotypes so it's going to be a very difficult thing I think to overcome it. But I do think that's the promise really is in coalition building. I think we have to realize race is a fiction but its effects are real. There are all sorts of myths though you can debunk them over and over again. They still affect people's lives in a pernicious way. Everyone knows in every major city there are certain neighborhoods that are white neighborhoods and certain other neighborhoods that are black neighborhoods and you can knock on people's doors and say By the way you know that Human Genome Project shows there's really no difference.

And that's that's not going to change anything. We're still going to have the white neighborhoods and the black neighborhoods and a few racially mixed neighborhoods which by the way always have property values lower than white neighborhoods. And so I think we need to understand how we create this ourselves. It's part of our culture so that even when people say well I'm not racist I always teach my children not to judge people by the color of their skin. I want to take them as people saying that in good faith. I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. What they don't realize is subconsciously unconsciously reflexively because it's part of our culture. They might be walking down the street late at night and see an African-American man behind them and cross the street. Now they might protest well but I'm not a racist. I'm not a bigot and they're not. But somehow these racial images this notion African-American male equals danger criminality possible Salan that sticks with people and sticks very powerfully. That's why when you look at who cabbies pick up they pass off African-American men including black cabbies

themselves because this image is so powerful. But Raul you mentioned another aspect of the culture that somehow we seem to adjust to and that is before a Latino or Hispanic person comes to the United States that individual is neither Latino nor Hispanic that individual might be Mexican like Salvador and he might be Cuban or she might be Cuban somehow. As you pointed out when we come here we adjust to the notion that I am no part of this larger population called Latino or Hispanic even though everything inside of me resists becoming this there was something about the culture that ultimately forces us to give in to acknowledge that that's the way things are going to be. We come here celebrating our diversity. We're called mestizo mixed blood and that's part of our sense of being that that we represent we are the National Council of La Raza. I think that's shorthand for La Raza cause me that of the cosmic rays which means the city that their culture of all the cultures and all the races and that's what we're proud of. But when we come here something changes and there was a

wonderful article in The New York Times series on race where they took two human blocks and I'm sorry to Cubans. One was black and one was White who were very close for him in Cuba. But how well they came to this country. Their world begin to take different forms and became adjusted to reality in the United States there's something pernicious you say about the American culture. The Telegraph images and stereotypes. And unfortunately we're we're human beings. All of us are human beings even even as you say there's an overabundance of hate that we learn through the media that are portrayed because most of us. Well Suzanne Harjo and one of the reasons it seems to me that the process of building coalitions while admirable and maybe while necessary may be inevitable in the future continues to be difficult is because what we bring to the table are different sets of histories and different sets of grievances. I know for

instance the two have been fighting very hard to get the name of the Washington football team the Redskins Change and other football in general a major part of a lawsuit in order to do that. Yet you will find African-Americans and Hispanic Americans will object to what you're doing. We'll see. We see nothing wrong with that. It's all a part of our history. There are happy campers on every plantation. You can find a few native people also who say that's OK with me if we give them that maybe they will leave our land alone. Maybe they'll just leave us alone on this other thing. That's not an important thing. These symbols are mightily important and we just can't spend a lot of time explaining this stuff to people anymore. And we have to remove that. We have to remove two things we have to remove the white European filter through which all of us are seen. And so each other to each other and we see ourselves

and we have to lift those white opaque veils of ignorance that have been dropped in front of us that keep us from understanding ourselves and each other for native people. Today even though lots of people are claiming us to be us on the census. We find that in recent history in the 1990s seven out of 10 violent crimes against native people are committed by non-natives primarily white men. So when you say the stereotype of the dangerous person is a black man No. 4 for native people. The stereotype of the dangerous deadly menacing person is a white man and has been throughout our history and that's very different. So we just have to we have to get rid of these pyramids that haves the new the European on top and everyone clawing their way up the Pyramids

and pushing each other out of the way. We can't we don't have time to play first in oppression and we don't have time to keep moving up to the detriment of the other people we have. We have to link arms literally and say we don't need to get there. We need to be right here on solid ground where we belong and we belong with each other. I was going to say in that respect I think the census has some encouraging news about the fact that there is less segregation on racial and ethnic lines. Still a lot of it. But I do really believe that at the heart of all of this the heart of solving this problem is the opportunity to end the isolation in which we live. And I think that looking at our system of public education is a key factor because and this fight against affirmative action I think just is is so misguided in terms of how important it is for diverse groups of

people to live together and get to learn that these stereotypes simply don't have any real basis in fact. But that's a long hard road for us to try to fight. I think this is not only the fight against affirmative action Frank. We were talking before the show about another fight and that is on the part of some people to bring an end to racial statistics taking altogether. Sure there are some people who say let's not keep track of any number of foreign countries. All right. And I think the idea that each one of us should get to say who we are that's very important. No one wants to be pigeonholed. No one wants to be labeled by bureaucrats so I understand that. But that's absurd to think that if we stop keeping track of the numbers we'll solve the problem. So I'm thinking if the National Weather Service doesn't track tornadoes suddenly we won't have tornadoes any more or less true. We don't keep track of the numbers. We just won't be able to measure our progress and the problems that remain. It doesn't solve anything about the way people think it just means we won't have the data to properly address the problem. When you look at the data though what you realize is

the census shows the population is changing but power changes much more slowly. Look at what the federal glass ceiling Commission found just five years ago when it released a massive two parts study it found that 95 to 97 percent of the managers executives and board members of Fortune 500 companies. Ninety five to 97 percent. That's that's almost 100 percent for close Donard percent of the people occupying the most powerful positions in our nation's companies are white men. That's not to say the white men are deserving. It's to say though that you know in the universe of deserving people it's more than 3 percent. All the rest of us. Well being a lawyer Judy with you know that anytime you go to court they're going to say that you have to prove that that is the result of discrimination you simply can't throw out the statistic and say voila. If the country is a much more diverse the the corporate heads of the Fortune 500 CEOs that does not mean that they are this was necessarily the result of discrimination.

Well that's true and I must say that our legal system is no more I think enlightened about some of these issues than the rest of the country. And again if you look at who is sitting in the seat of the judge and the difficulty we've had with juries over the years in terms of their racial makeup I think it is not surprising that the the evidence the proof that has to be offered in these situations is very very demanding. And until we sort of get people into those positions more I should say Frank of course is also a lawyer and he's been involved in some litigation recently along these lines. But until that happens where people can bring that to the situation some understanding of what has happened and why it is that what looks like a race neutral set of policies and practices or activities in fact are permeated in many ways with racial stereotypes and the legacy of a past act of

discrimination. Wanted to get back to one of the points you made earlier Suzanne and that is a lot of people are now claiming to be you or claiming to have a part of you in their bloodstream in the multi racial categories that they not allowed to place on the census. I don't know about anybody else but I inferred from your statement that there was a bit of hypocrisy there that these people are now claiming to be you but without seeing any real obligation in doing so. Well I think that it's a mix. I think some people have in their family history and some people have in their family mythology which sometimes can be just as strong that they are Native American. And so they check that without knowing quite what that means or having anything to do in the modern era with native peoples and that's fine. And that's sincere. There is another category though I suspect that is hoping in some way to cash in on casino money because now we're supposed to be mega

rich and of course we're not. We're still the poorest people and the richest country in the world. And despite a handful of native people and native nations that are making good money and good for them. And I'm glad that that's happening. I think a lot of non-native people have an envious reaction to that. And it's like the Black Gold Rush in Oklahoma where all sorts of people in Oklahoma said where were Native America or were American Indian too. A lot of white men said that as they were killing their native wives to inherit the oil land. So I think we see a similar thing that's happening now. And so I don't think it's good but I don't think the answer is to stop counting. I think your point is well-taken that you need to know what's going on and this gives us the only measure that we're capable right now using.

I'll talk a little bit about the fact that the Hispanic community is now allowed to register both its ethnicity and its racial makeup. Does that lead in your view to a greater understanding of what we call the Hispanic community or does it lead to greater confusion. Well I guess lot of confusion because people will interpret that. It was very significant that a very significant number of Latinos refused to put anything other than Hispanic that just refuse to claim any racial makeup. I thought that was interesting. I think that's a reflection of the fact that we just don't quite look at race in the same way that Americans think of race. And until we can change the media we haven't talked very much about the media and I think it's important to focus back to the matter is that right now only one percent of the characters on television are Latino. Latinos are portrayed more negatively than any other group in this country according to the studies that have been done. So until

we can find ways of educating the American people are there are a lot of good folks out there I mean obviously most Anglo white folks are are folks who don't want to discriminate will not think of themselves as bigots but they don't get educated into the realities of our community. We don't get to tell our stories it almost has a favorite line. But I love he says he goes to a group and says made me one Asian hero and nobody can get a room and maybe one Asian hero and he goes on to develop that. But the point being that an important part of our makeup is that as a nation is not understood. And that's that's double for Latinos and it may be true for more variety of other groups. We've got to tell our stories. The media is very powerful. It shapes decisions shapes stereotypes shapes mindsets and we've got to change that. Here's a quick concrete example something that my white friends don't understand is

why I call myself Asian-American but sometimes they say well why can't you just be yourself. Why can't you be an individual. Why do you have to inject race into this. You just find it right. I want to say to them Well you know it's not my choosing. It's because of you that I have to be Asian-American because I'd rather be Asian-American than have a racial epithet used as was regularly used on playgrounds when I was a kid. I don't want to be called a chink but Jap or gook. I'd rather be Asian-American than any of those. And I'm reminded whenever I say something controversial that people might not in day to day interaction say something about race but it's always there beneath the surface. I'll tell you why. Because every time I write something or give a speech or do something or any issue where I'm dissenting or even parochial little this controversy inevitably someone in the audience will say or someone will write to me if you don't like it here. You can go back home to where you came from. You know I was born in Cleveland Ohio so that's where I would be going back to. But that is a reminder. When ever you get

beneath the surface that I don't have that same freedom my white friends do if they want to just be themselves if they want to be just normal they can be because to be white is normal. That's the mainstream that's majority. But I can't help it. And that I think is what a lot of people don't understand that people of color are in a materially different position. Well I'm sure a number of whites will point to the fact that in their history there were Italians who were discriminated against. There were Jews of course who were discriminated against and they make the argument that look we went through that. You can go through it too. It will eventually pass. Do you see signs in the latest census giving the number of people who are identifying themselves as multiracial and given the fact that we now live in closer proximity. In general terms than we did before that this is in the process passing out of our culture. I'll tell you where I see problems. I see promise among our young people who are more and more

willing to identify themselves as multi-racial. I think the statistic is that one in every 12 African-American youth under 18 to 8 percent identify themselves as being more than one race. I think that when you look at California and you see the young folks who really are dealing more with youth culture than any particular racial ethnic culture I mean that's where you can see commonality like it or not. Is it the music the dress now that the activities are. And I think that that's healthy. And I think we'll see more and more of that so you'll get beyond that. The real question though I think is really the one that Frank talked about in terms of the seats of power. And you know whether or not there is going to be the opportunity for more people of color to have access to that power through education.

And I think we're going to have to take another short break. Hold that point Frank when we come back we'll continue our discussion about whether or not the seats of power will be open and up to people of color in the 21st century. Stay with us. You're watching a special encore edition of the evening Xchange race in the 21st century. Stay with. Welcome back to our conversation on race in the 21st century in America. And I guess in order

to combine our discussion of racial definition and our discussions about power maybe are used as an example. Tiger Woods first the definition part young man who describes himself as described himself as a cabel a nation meaning that he combines a number of characters together. You and I know Judy that a number of African-Americans are seeing that. Oh he'll find out later on if he thinks he's all of those things. Pretty soon he's going to find out that he is a black person. Nevertheless an increasing number of people are defining themselves as multiracial. That it would appear is as controversial if not more so in the African-American community than it is in the rest of communities. The one drop of blood here seems to apply only to the African-American population. As Suzanne was pointing out an increasing number of previously thought to be white people who are claiming to have Indian blood people who are

previously thought to be white are now counting themselves as Latino some Asian. Nobody who is Paghman stands up and says Hey you've been thinking about me as white all these years. Yes yes. I have some African-American black guys that changes the left I said earlier than I thought we will have arrived at the right place in America when in fact you have an indication that white people are checking off black. That's right. You know as well and because it's very interesting that if you read the newspaper you will see and I've seen it in a number of places. More and more black people are checking off white. In addition to black why aren't those white people checking on black I mean how do they know that. Well we know that we know enough about race to know that that is true. But you know I know people in the African-American community who are very resentful of the fact that Tiger Woods wants to you know give his mother the recognition that you know and that's important but it's but it's seen I think as

an attempt to deny black and and black people want to take credit for it. And I think we can if that's important but so can an awful lot of other people but that that is a whole nother topic of discussion and it's very interesting how we identify ourselves perceive ourselves in how others perceive as a to side with what Tiger Woods shows us. Those aren't the same thing. He can talk all he wants about Campbell and Asian one fuzzy Zeller made that show a few years ago. He said Tell that boy you know because the person wins the Masters gets to choose the dinner menu he told the camera crews and was filmed saying Tell that boy not to serve fried chicken and collard greens. Well what is that. That's a stereotypically black sort of menu. He didn't say tell that boy and you know that by itself is offensive. We didn't say not to serve curry chicken and lemon grass soup which would be just as inappropriate. So it shows that even someone who's probably the most famous person of mixed race descent you could imagine if you asked other people if they didn't recognize him from his commercials you know what is

this person. 99 out of 100 would say that as a black man. So there's this disconnect between what people say they are and what others perceive of them as we'll know we have equality when those match up and when people aren't all trying to escape one category so that passing isn't just a one way phenomenon where you try to make yourself lighter and lighter. But Tiger Woods is what he is and just having signed a new contract with Disney puts him in a fairly elite category of individuals who are making large sums of money and who have an increasing amount of power. Do you feel that ultimately the Tiger Woods of the world or the Bob Johnsons of the world if you will or those Asians Latinos Native Americans who ultimately have power will have some kind of effect on the overall economy so that ultimately those 97 percent of the positions that are occupied by white males will change. Well there are so few of them that I think it's hard to say that they will have an impact on the economy. But I

think they will have an impact on what these young people who I've talked about earlier will see as the possibilities for them. I think that I think it will have that impact. I just I mean I don't know what Tiger Woods will do with his millions. I'm sure he will use some of those dollars to do some good but ultimately in the scheme of things with 95 percent 97 percent of the CEOs being white Americans it's sort of hard to think that it will have some impact that we can actually feel other than encouraging us to think about ourselves in this place as our children. Which brings us to the issue of coalition building again an agenda Suzanne. Hard to because people will say what is it that Native Americans want. Do you want those CEO positions. Do you want full integration in the America that we know today. What is it that you want that should cause us to coalesce. Well we want a lot of pretty basic human rights. We want people to stop committing violent crimes against us

and the reservation border towns and in the urban areas we want American society generally to stop using us for their sport and recreation and stop demeaning us through the use of sports references and stereotypes and to kind of look in your refrigerator and look in your cupboard and say let's get rid of these symbols and then assess what you're driving and in terms of what symbols you're moving around and through your life. Those things are mightily important. Crazy Horse is an important spiritual person to many of us and not like her. And that's such a sacrilege to have him demeaned in that way. Yet you see that throughout society we just have to do it to snap to and say what are we doing. This is no way to be behaving. We have to respect ourselves respect each other and ask each other that

very question what is it you want. What is it you want. Let me do that. Roll with the census figures coming out and the number of Hispanics you mentioned earlier that it seemed to set up this majority minority competition. And the notion of among very many people is that this means that Hispanics will now be competing with African-Americans over issues like affirmative action over issues like who should represent a particular area in political office because the perception is that there is only so much room for minorities and minorities have to compete for that space. I think so. And I think the way to get beyond that is to agree on a set of standards and a set of goals. Mean we we want to be treated as individuals want to be judged by competence not by the core of our skin the content of our characters. And with that being said. And so I think if we can agree on those standards be resources according to me not according to power that will be justice based

on justice not of who has the power or those things. I think we can all agree to agree. If we're serious about that. I see great opportunity for coalescing if we're still going to be ethnocentric if we're going to say no I suffered more than you did. And it was more recent and therefore I should be first in line and I think all my problems before we can take care of your problems then I think we're going to have a continuing acrimony. But I'm very hopeful that there's some really good leadership on both on all of these communities that I think will reach for the best in all of us. Which brings me back to you Frank and the notion that what Raul just said and that is I suffered more than you. I I was brought her as a slave. You and I but how does this leave you. You merely immigrated to this country. How did you overcome those kinds of differences. I think we have to take the high road. We have to be principled and recognize that each one of us at some point has to give up a little something. And we also have to recognize

sometimes when we're fighting amongst ourselves that the real problem isn't us. The real problem is because of structural issues in the economy and neighborhoods for example that one Korean-Americans and African-Americans are concerned about a liquor store or something like that and tensions develop between shopkeepers and their customers. That really what that's about is public education that is deteriorating what it's really about is small business loans that don't go to African-Americans what it's really about is a whole lot of other issues where most of the control most of the decision making isn't by either Asian-Americans or African-Americans it's by whites and by other institutions that are predominantly white controlled. So we have to be principled about this and take the high road and recognize that coalition building is really hard. It doesn't just happen accidentally. It doesn't happen overnight and it's not automatic. You have to have leadership you have to have grassroots commitment and hard work and you have to go at it day after day after day it's like anything else it's like getting

into shape once you've gotten into shape you have to stay in shape you can't just get into shape and say I'm done. You know you very quickly lose whatever gains you've made. I'd like to say I think that Kerry is a shining example of that because he has been working in coalitions and representing all of these concerns. I think in the broader community and what we need to do is to get you cloned. In other places I think. Well let's talk a little bit about what's going on right now as we tape this discussion in Cincinnati Ohio where what seems like an oft repeated story of a white police officer shooting an unarmed black youth has led to days of rioting and unrest in Cincinnati Cincinnati Ohio and a very ugly reminder that despite all the progress that we have made some of the underlying aspects of racism in America apparently still remain very strong. It seems to me that while we talk about

coalescing among ourselves that there are still a great deal of education to be done in a white America that is often resistant to that education process. How do we overcome that. It seems to me that if race is not a daily fact of life and your existence is something that you don't have to deal with obstacles every day or routinely because of race then it's not something that you are overly concerned about and therefore not disposed to talking about how for instance the President Clinton's initiative attempt to bring whites into the discussion in a serious way. Well I think it's Frank's point about leadership. I think that really I don't think that you can expect this kind of thing to come up from the grass roots and white communities. I just don't think it is on the radar screen. Now there were paper reports that the white citizens and in Cincinnati are very upset and scared. Well because they were thinking you know these people are going to come after me because I'm white. What they need to do is to look at the police department and they need to be talking to the

police chief and the mayor in Cincinnati and saying this is not acceptable. 15. Since 1995 15 black men have been murdered in Cincinnati have been killed in Cincinnati by the police. There have been no white fatalities in that city. Now that is a statistic that is significant. And here in. We've realized recently it's not just African-Americans it's African-American cops off duty getting shot not just one but there is a pattern that's really troubling because now you're talking about people who've committed themselves to law enforcement. But because of the color of their skin as they take off that uniform their fellow cop shoots at them. But Suzan Harjo one of the things that whites in Cincinnati might be saying is that look I am not a racist. I mean absolutely no harm. I am not responsible for the behavior of these police officers. The same people who say to you Look we mean no harm when we cheer for the Redskins. We need no home then we object to them changing their names. We

think this is a symbol of strength and fortitude. Why are you picking on me. Yes. The love and honor are symbols that Marcos and target us and when real living native people stand up and say we don't like this. It doesn't honor us it we. We don't honor your tradition of racism. They say shut up. Totally disrespectful. Yes. So the people who consider themselves pure as the driven snow aren't that bigoted and and do bigoted things daily on a daily basis and they just have to examine their lives. We all have to examine our lives. You talked earlier about education really Winston and Roe talked about the fact that Latinos come from a variety of places around the world. It seems that in our public education systems we are not or private for that

matter. We're not teaching a great deal about the history of peoples and how they came here and the result of that is that today's population fairly often feels in no way responsible for the problems or the plight that communities of color find themselves in. For instance if you talk about reparations by African-Americans whether or not people agree or disagree with them the first response you tend to get from whites is well we weren't here. That wasn't us that was our forefathers. You can't make me responsible for something our forefathers did. Again live or not. Ultimately one agrees or disagrees with reparations. How do you teach a broad public the history that led to the crime for the operation. Well I don't I don't have the answer to that but I do know that there is the opportunity. I mean the teachers in the classroom I think for the most part themselves don't have this information where would they have gotten it from. You know Carter Woodson started Negro History Week in the segregated black schools. And because he wanted black

children to understand something about their history there was that opportunity and there was a place to focus the attention that could happen. Now we teach history you know that the Clinton administration tried to develop some national history standards and included amnesty and it was information about lots of different people of different races. The conservative community went bananas about that and to an end and was very upset about the amount of attention that Hispanic and Asian and African Americans were getting in American history. Here's how we do it. Dr. King showed us how to do it. A letter from Birmingham jail he wrote to white moderates the self-styled white moderates who thought of themselves as the good people who were in favor of civil rights or anti-racist. What he asked them to do was simply this. He said just live up to what you say you believe in. And that's what we need to do. We need to say look

we talk about liberty. We talk about equality. We talk about racial justice we talk about celebrating diversity. Every company every government agency wants to do that. Well let's really do it. We hope you enjoyed that special edition of evening exchange on race in the 21st century.