Evening Exchange; Black Caucus; Morals

Get. A talk with the head of the Congressional Black Caucus and a lesson in morality all up next evening Exchange. A. Good evening and welcome to evening exchange I'm Kojo Nnamdi the 22nd annual Congressional Black

Caucus legislative weekend is under way at various places throughout the city including the Washington Convention Center. Many extremely important questions facing the African-American community will be raised at the forums and seminars being conducted this weekend. Joining us now is the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus Congressman Ed Towns of New York. Welcome to evening Xchange Chairman Towns was first elected to represent a segment of Brooklyn New York back in 1982 and just last week he handily won the Democratic primary. Congratulations to you. How much on winning that primary will spend most of our time talking about the caucus but let's talk about Brooklyn for a minute here. Apparently all of the media in Brooklyn and it is my understanding even some of your own campaign thought there would be a closer race in Brooklyn but you ended up with more than 60 percent of the vote. I think about 64 percent of the vote in the primary and opponent ended up with about 26 percent. Why were the predictions that it would be so close. And it didn't turn out to be that way.

Well I think that people felt that being ahead 50 percent new district and that was just a six week turnaround time and the person that was running against person running against me had a primary disorder. Susan. All Susan all these accounts the woman and of course council districts in the congressional district and she has a tremendous amount of wealth. So they felt that she'd be able to use that wealth over a short period of time and be able to sort of create a very difficult race. Also it was a very negative campaign and many people felt that the negative issues that would sort of affect into the people in terms of coming out to vote and have after a certain point you know people realize that what she was saying was not true. So it sort of turned the other way and I think that as a result we're able to get 64 percent of the vote. It was predictable that she would bring up your alleged role in the so-called check kiting scheme in Congress when it was reported here that you wrote more than 400 text checks in excess of the balance in your account in the House back. Notice I didn't say bouncing checks like at first you had issued a statement attributing it to fraud on the part of an aide. But it's my understanding that you

issued some pamphlets in New York during this campaign clearing that up could you do that for our viewing audience. Well actually what happened was that the question came up asking if I was aware of all of them in answer to that question was no and then the question was why weren't you aware of it. And then I pointed out that there was fraud. But the point is that I did not balance any checks even though I had a situation that was sort of created a problem in terms of additional checks that I was not aware of. But the point was that in the campaign I stressed the fact I didn't bounce any checks and finally said to the opposition if you present a check that I have bounced on the House bank I'll withdraw from the campaign. So I sort of basically put it to bed so people that knew that it was overdrafts or checking plus but it was not dead. I had two stories it was the fact that the question was phrased differently and then which required to define and so there was no relationship between the embezzlement and the and the excessive and dry and dressed in excess of your balance.

Oh yes of course that led to some of them. No question about it. To a lot of the overdress because of the fact that money was being embezzled. But the point was that as I was saying is that even with all of that I didn't bounce any checks the other aspect of her negative campaign upset the Reverend Calvin Butts a a minister in Brooklyn New York because she apparently cited his opposition to some of the things the tobacco industry is doing in the black community and alleged that you had a cozy relationship with the tobacco industry causing Reverend Butts to get very upset because he said he didn't give her permission to use his name in that campaign. But how did that turn out. Did that in effect do you think. Well I think that really came out and indicated the fact that he was supporting me and he was for you know empowerment. So I think that somewhat backfired on her because the vote she's talking about it was a vote dealing with advertising fact that I voted because I felt that First Amendment is important they should be protected and that when the vote came up I supported advertising it was not about cigarettes. And

for that I was concerned I was protecting the First Amendment I think that we have to be concerned when we start playing around with the memory of the First Amendment which in terms of freedom of speech and the right to advertise. You know today it might be something that we dislike. Maybe it could be cigarettes today but tomorrow it could be something else. And then the next day something I think that we have to be very careful. So my decision to support in terms of advertising had nothing to do with cigarettes. Let us move on. Two days ago Congressman Mike Espy was on the show. He is the chairman of the legislative weekend this year and he complained that too for too long the Black Caucus legislative record had appeared in the style section of newspapers and dishtowels major newspaper The Washington Post in particular. This morning I pick up the newspaper front page of the Style section. There's an article on the Congressional Black Caucus doesn't mention one seminar doesn't mention one forum doesn't mention one legislative session that is taking place this week. Obviously you must have seen the same article. How do you feel about that kind of coverage.

I'm very very troubled by it I think that maybe in the beginning that when the Congressional Black Caucus weekend started maybe it was a big social thing maybe it was just a lot of fun. But now the forums of great substance and I think that that's the thing that should be reported. We have many the members that have been very involved in terms of these forums. Material is being disseminated that is very very important. We even have the some of the members that will be coming in terms of blacks who won the primary. They're here participating in the seminars going to orientation and getting information with sitting down developing plans for the 103rd Congress. I'm I'm excited about what's happening here this weekend. So if it's reported reported accurately they would have to say that these workshops workshops of substance people are very busy in terms of acquiring and getting information. The members are very involved in terms of preparing for these workshops. So I

think that sure maybe in the beginning they might could have said that on this particular day a certain amount of scotch is going to be consume a certain amount of bourbons will be consumed a certain amount of beer is going to be consumed. But today believe me these workshops are something that we all are proud of. People are getting that kind of mission and that if the Fed the press is going to be fair they would have to point out that this weekend now is a weekend of great substance. And I think that Mike Espy is right that it it's time for them to take it off the style page and put it where it should be. What I find surprising is that none of the major media apparently send their top political reporters to cover this weekend and in general that might even be acceptable in some quarters. But this year when the caucus is expected to grow from 26 to maybe at least 39 and maybe more members one would at least feel that the relative influence of the caucus is growing in the Congress would be of interest to the news pages of most of our major newspapers and to the stories of most of our major television networks. But apparently that is not the case. I mean come.

It's unfortunate because you're right. And many of those members here you know spending time you know going to the workshops those that will be coming in of course in January. And I when I look back at these numbers when we will go from probably 25 to 39 voting members of Congress and some people didn't go as high as 41 when we think about that. When you look at the budget of the budgets that have been passed over the past five or six years that none of them would have passed if every member of the Congressional Black Caucus that we have now say if we go to 39 or even 38 would say we're not going to vote on the budget until we make certain that it's things that we feel very strongly about. They're in there for the communities that we represent. That budget cannot pass. And when I look at that I think that the media should begin to focus on that because it's a new day. And I think that the Congress will move in a new direction and if we are able to get those two moving vans to move up to the White House in January which means that we'd have one moving in to move the bush out Bush family out and then another a moving

van coming in to move the Clinton family in so we can get all of this to happen. And with all these numbers in terms of increasing in terms of members of the black community in terms of the amount of congressmen coming in I think that it will be a strong day for programs like we were able to develop during the days of the great society because that's been a problem with the Congressional Black Caucus that we've had to fight to be able to hold on to the programs of the Great Society. I mean we had to hold on to the increase in fight for Headstart. Let's talk about that for a second in terms of what the caucus does in substance because the other side of that of that bias and that is the style versus news bias in the way that the caucus is covered is that after Congressman Espey appeared on the show and this has happened in the past people running to me on the street they call the station they write letters and they say you let the guys in the Congressional Black Caucus get away too easy because they don't do anything. There is still a lingering perception in some parts of the black community that the Congressional Black Caucus really

doesn't do anything which is why we're particularly happy to have you here because you can talk about what it is you feel that under your chairmanship in the 107 Congress the Congressional Black Caucus has achieved legislatively what have your accomplishments been. Well I think that the first thing that we need to talk about is that the budget itself the fact that we were not able to pass our own alternative budget but we were able to change the budgetary priorities and a lot of ways we're also able to get additional money in for certain things that were not in before because of the fact that we had the numbers and we begin to to recognize that if we forced their hand they had to make certain changes. We may even do more for Africa. We were able to to do some things in terms of the civil rights bill that was not as strong as we wanted it. But of course that we were able to influence it and to keep pushing until we're able to get it through the Congressional Black Caucus as the ones who did not give up. They stayed there and they fought for the Civil Rights Bill. Sure we would have loved to have had all the things that we wanted. But the point was that we did not go home without having the civil rights

bill. We are now fighting for the Brady Bill. We feel that that's very very important in terms of the districts that we represent and we're fighting to try to get it through before we go home hoping that it will happen. I feel there's some movement that movement has occurred because of the Congressional Black Caucus has been fighting day in and day out making certain that it happens. The Congressional Black Caucus is the one that's been fighting to hold onto those programs that were developed during the days of the greats of greatness. I think that that's important for us to record that legal services would not be around and not be around if had not been for the Congressional Black Caucus. Headstart would not have been expanded if it not been for the fighting of the Congressional Black Caucus and some friends of ours who were able to sort of convince to be supportive of what we were doing that kind of influence. I think the other thing that people sometimes forget about that we have some members of the Congressional Black Caucus that cheer full committees and as a result of their being on the chair the full committee that we've been able to get some legislation out that we were not able

to get out before. So the Congressional Black Caucus even though we have not been able to pass an alternative budget that the alternative budget that we put forth has influenced the budgetary process in the Congress and with these new members coming in. And we will continue to offer that budget and hope that eventually one day that we will get it through because it is unquestionably the best budget that has been proposed. Virtually all of the new members who are coming in will be democratic. Gary Franks may still end up being the lone Republican on the caucus at this point. Nevertheless there are clearly ideological changes taking that are going to take place in the caucus. A lot of the new members will be coming from rural southern districts as opposed to the northern urban districts which the majority of members of the caucus now represent. But it will still be predominantly Democratic. How important is it for the caucus to be effective for there to be a Democratic president in the White House. Because I know that a number of members of the caucus have not been very pleased about the way they feel the Clinton campaign has been treating black voters.

But how important is it to the caucus for a Democrat to be in the White House for your agenda to be even more successful. I think that with a Democrat in the White House it helps us in terms of being able to put forth our agenda. And you're right I think that there are some people who have questioned the fact that we're in the campaign the urban issues have not been addressed in the way that they should be addressed. But I think that's something that can be worked out because if the Clinton campaign is able to put somebody in it at a high level that understands the urban issues and urban problems I think that some of the things that we've been talking about can be resolved. It's still time to do that. I feel that the campaign in order to be successful you know must address some of the urban issues. It's important to us that we get a Democrat in the White House because as having the Democrats in terms and most of the members of our caucus that would be a Democrat but also in terms of the agenda you know in terms of the kind of things that need to be done. The Reagan program was not in the best interests of terms

of the communities that we represent. The Bush agenda has not been in the best interest of the committed the community that we represent so therefore I think that we need to work hard now to make certain that we get Clinton in because I think that he will be able to change the direction of this country. I tell you now that there's a lot of pain and there's a lot of suffering out there. Will they continue to caucus this weekend. Yes he will. And one night on Saturday on Saturday he will be closing the caucus. You mentioned the Brady Bill. What do you see as being ahead for the Congressional Black Caucus in the 103rd Congress of the United States. Well I think that here again that the budgetary process will be influenced greatly by the thirty eight thirty nine members and maybe even 41 members of Congress. Let's face it without their support we can based on the numbers in the past. They will not be able to get a budget through the house without those members of the Congressional Black Caucus supporting the budget. So we will be there making certain

that the areas that we represent get some of the kind of things that we've been talking about for quite some time. So it will make a big difference because of that alone. And one last thing our viewers might want some advance information on who is likely to replace Congressman Ed Towns as the chairperson of the 100 of the Congressional Black Caucus for the 103rd Congress. Not that I'm not running again you may. But you're right. There's a there's a contest between Kweisi Mfume of Maryland and of course Craig Washington of Texas and. Of course I don't know in terms of whether the security situation will prevail here or. But the point is that it's too early to say because you have a lot of new members coming in and they will not take the vote until the new members arrive. So somebody has to get out there and talk to the new members because we never had this many new members come in so they will tell a very important role in this process. Well we do.

I'm not sure Congressman Washington has been a guest on this show and a very good one but take aways is virtually a homeboy around here. So I know who the people in Washington are likely to be filing for but we've got to take a short break. More with Congressman Towns in a moment. When.

We come back we're talking with Congressman Ed Towns of New York who is the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus and who has just won his primary handily in New York City and faces no significant opposition for re election so he will be back for the 103rd Congress but he is here discussing the 22nd annual legislative weekend of the Congressional Black Caucus and the first that is not being held in the Washington Hilton Hotel. We discussed this before with Congressman Mike Espy but it is worth repeating again why move to the convention center. Well I think that people were complaining about the fact that they could not participate. We didn't have enough space so we decided to move it to a larger area where people could display their goods. Many of them wanted to do that and others wanted to attend the dinner and other activities so we decided to move to a larger

area. Also to be able to have workshops and things of that nature that people do will be able to sort of get over to the conventions. So I think it was a good move to expand it because we were just leaving too many people out. My last question before going into the break was about. But the question before last was about Bill Clinton and the need for a Democrat in the White House in the views of the caucus. What if President Bush wins re-election to the White House does that mean a change in strategy for the Congressional Black Caucus in terms of the kind of legislation it will offer. Because there's a difference between knowing that if you offer up legislation for D.C. statehood it's likely to run into a veto. On the other hand with Mr. Bush on the other hand with Mr. Clinton it probably will be approved does that factor affect what you guys and women decide to do. Well first of all let me press me because we plan to take care that by making certain that Clinton is this I'm not going to press me I'm a lawyer and never to I think that it makes a difference because right now the attitude of members of

Congress being affected by what the president is saying and doing for instance he would say that if you pass the legislation would come back to us from from the White House saying that the president's going to veto it. So therefore you have members of Congress behaving in a way well no need to do this because the president is going to veto it. You know what my attitude is that the president has his job and we have ours that we should pass the legislation send it to the president and let him do his job. That would be the to pass to sign it into law or to veto it. So I think that many attitudes have developed around the house because of the fact that there is the threat of the possible veto. So I think that having Bill Clinton in there I really feel that at least the atmosphere and climate of the veto would sort of go away and up to this point that the president has been very successful with his vetoes. I mean I think he's done about 32 of them. And of course we have not been able to override. So it makes a big difference and we're hoping to have Clinton then and we should be able to get a lot of our programs through because we feel very strongly that the Congressional Black Caucus in

terms of its clout in the house will be able to use force to get it through. And speaking of getting through we have to allow our telephone call to get through. Thank you very much for your patience. You are now through your underwear with Congressman Towns. Go ahead please. Are you there. Hello. CALLER Yes I am right ahead please. I'd like to know how. All right. All they have in government. I mean what civil rights bill. Also I'd like to know where it is headed. Well obviously black people and acts of faith have no right. Yes. You understand that. Arkansas is definitely one of the states that has the civil right laws. Definitely. And they're just not there. However you know we're looking at several things here in terms of the poverty in this state and I think that's an issue that we should

definitely visit. But I think that what we need to look at too is the fact that there has been some tremendous improvements. Under Governor Clinton you have to look at where a place is in where and who's going to bring it and how far that person is going to bring it. So I think that should have been some problems in that area for many many years. But I think that under the leadership of Bill Clinton that there has been some tremendous improvements. I think that we have to examine that. And then when you look at that I think that you would say that as the governor he has done a decent job. I think that's the way we have to examine. Also Arkansas is not a place that is rich with resources. You know you're not talking about the area that has natural resources like some of our states and I think that when you put all this in perspective then you analyze it and you say well this guy has not done a bad job. So I think that when you put him against Bush in terms of who has the skills and ability to lead this country. And when you look at where we are now I think that there's no question about it and the two candidates that are running is Bush and

Clinton. I think that we have to weigh it. I say to you that I way that Clinton would be a much better President than Bush has been and that's a side that we come down on is the everything that we would want him to be the answer to that is no. And I think if you put any member of the Congressional Black Caucus in this seat they probably would say the same thing. But I think that when we look at where we are as a nation and I think the choice is Clinton and Bush I tell you now that I'm going to work extremely hard to make certain that that Clinton is the next president of the United States. Back to the telephone caller it's your turn you're on the air. Go ahead please. Hello. Yes. I was screaming how are you. I'm wondering if going to check the capital punishment that seems to be handed down now. Seems like it's could get all the way through and I doubt very seriously Bush is going to veto it. You're talking about capital punishment in the District of Columbia. Yes. They are forcing us to have a referendum on capital punishment in the District of Columbia. And our caller wants to know if you think that will indeed happen.

Well I think that they're pushing them to do it. And I think that it will happen. There is legislation now that's been going on earlier today that we're in. I know that Eleanor Holmes Norton was saying that you know WHY DO THIS TO US. And when we are now preparing to have a referendum you know why would the house you know. X at this particular time why couldn't you wait and allow us to take care of our own affairs. So I think that is something that will happen in D.C. but I always have problems with the Congress you know sort of moves in and sort of dictates in terms of too D.C. as to what they should do. And that's one reason why I'm very very supportive of statehood. I think that that's something that we must fight to make certain that D.C. eventually gets back to the telephone caller. You're up next you're on the air. Go ahead please. Caller are you there. Go right ahead caller go right ahead. Really good to know. I reckon America's practice practice practice Wiccan Magic Johnson.

Magic Johnson is receiving an award you know at the Congressional Black Caucus. I think that Magic Johnson as you know has been an inspiration to a lot of folks and so we just happy that he's except in the ward and that if there's something that he'd like to do while he's here. The Congressional Black Caucus would work with him in order to do it. But the dinner he will receive an award. I also understand that there's an honor being conferred on the lake. Malcolm X is that correct. That's correct. And his wife and the widow would come in she's going to receive many Chevez. I think that Malcolm As long you know this is long overdue. Malcolm has made a tremendous contribution to this nation. I think that sometimes people sort of sidetrack it or forget in terms of what Malcolm has done. But when you really look at the whole record of Malcolm X you'd have to say that Malcolm has made a major difference in terms of our lives. So I'm happy to

know that the Congressional Black Caucus which is that allowed me to give him the chairman's award and of course that Maxine Waters from California will present the war to Betty Chavez. And she is excited about it because I think that this is something we should have done 20 25 years ago and our next telephone call you on the air Caller go ahead please. Earlier you said Tom you people were like harassing you on the street. Who knows. My opinion of people get harassed on the street about whether they do or not but I really don't feel that they do. It's not that Chevies that kind of feeling that they get. I mean that means some Sometimes some of the checks people in ash ash are members of. What are people doing and sometimes recently issue came over sometimes where you got a sit to get your money from. Apart from the tobacco industry you give some of the members of the Congressional Caucus caucus a lot of money and that really does bother me sometimes to see so many people that companies are the actual company

like Tim Howard or Bush who is on me. I don't feel that free up your act because I was there two years ago I had no free super free alcohol at our place and how much alcohol sex me has no place there. So you guys may be too much but I don't think our media hold you for someone to call em like Carmike feel with fans that you represent. I mean you accept money from the tobacco industry and I think this is one that will say it well because the only people that give us money so we have to kind of accept it. And if we elect you people don't see it. Allow me to have the congressman answer. He doesn't have a great deal of time left. Let me quickly make the point that you are speaking to the congressman through the media and you are raising this question so in a way the media is raising the tough questions. Go ahead. No question about I think that you know sure that this is something that comes up all the time. But when you look at the very scholarship programs that are sponsored by many of

the tobacco companies and of course the big distributors in terms of Anheuser-Busch and others you know also when you look at the NAACP Urban League I mean the contributions that they get that many news organizations would not be able to exist without that kind of support. A lot of these schools and the scholarships that young people get they would not be able to get an education without this. I agree with you. I think that if we are able to sort of come together and pool our resources that we will probably be able to cut down on a lot of this. But until we prepared to make that kind of commitment I think a lot of organizations will continue to accept the support coming from these companies. And of course we know that the companies are not merely doing it out of the goodness of their hearts they also are looking for a very important part of the public relations benefits in the black community for their products. But you make the point that a lot of these national organizations have no other source of income. That's correct. That's that's the problem the congressman has to go we have to take a short break. But up next why Johnny can't tell right from wrong.

Stay with us. Welcome back. Is the rise in violent crime suicide drug use and teen pregnancy

connected to our educational system. According to our next guest they are. William Kilpatrick is the author of Why Johnny Can't Read in this book he says American public schools have abandoned the system of moral education. Welcome to you Mr. Kilpatrick. And thank you very much. I do not know whether this is the best time or the worst time for a book like this to come out. We are on the heels of a Republican convention where family values was discussed a lot. And shortly after the convention we all of a sudden discovered that most of the American people feel that the definition applied to family values at that convention was too narrow that people are trying to tell people what kinds of families they should have how they should raise their children and what kind of life they should lead. We have the Dan Quayle and Murphy Brown incident just just coming off the front pages of the newspaper because of the first episode of Murphy Brown. And now along you come with this book saying that our schools are not teaching proper values. And in my view running the risk of being put in the same narrow bag with the Republican National Committee and all the rest of it how do

you feel about that. Can I just start by correcting you on the title Why Johnny Can't tell right from wrong. I'm sorry. That's the other ones. Another book. Long time ago. Yes. Well I'd hate to see the issue politicized or over politicized because it's too important really and it's an issue that's going to be with us a long time after the campaign is over. And I'm not really for politicizing or classroom type of moral education character formation that I'm calling for is really much less politicized than than what we have now. I'm suggesting schools work on encouraging character traits which most parents most adults would not find divisive such as traits of courage honesty justice responsibility self-control perseverance and hard work. And I think that the tendency of up until very recently instead of working on that sort of thing

has been to bring the divisive issues of the day into the classroom and to debate those hot topics and to give students the impression that just by taking a stand on one of these issues that therefore they have grown morally when really I think there's a lot more. You call this approach to education of children values clarification. What is it you don't like about that or is that the other approach. That's the other approach that I object to. What do you call that approach the values clarification is the approach I object to the approach I'm that you favor favor is character education character education. What is it that you do not like about values clarification. Well it's the idea that we leave it up to students to decide right and wrong for them selves to choose their own values. In effect to reinvent the moral wheel and it seems to me that the moral wheel has already been invented and you're taking a big chance if you

leave it up to each individual to decide right and wrong for himself. There have been a lot of there's been a lot of discussion over the years about this thing called situational ethics that students are taught in some classrooms around the country with it asked to make a choice between one option and the other without making any moral commitment either to one option or the other. That is a part of the values clarification system that you don't like. What did you and you traced that to the 1960s coming into our educational system in the 1960s. What is it that you liked about the educational system before the 1960s. Well the character education approach was never really encoded as a particular curriculum. It was just an approach and an attitude and by the 60s that was already quite watered down. The thing I like about it is that the emphasis is on habit formation that good character has to do with forming good habits of behavior. Aristotle who I suppose started it all so that a person becomes virtuous by practicing virtuous acts

he becomes brave by performing brave actually becomes justify performing just acts. And the idea is that in his original sense the word virtue meant something like our words strength and like muscular strength you could lose it if you didn't keep in practice. So it's something that and almost in a sense as to be almost in the muscles as well as in my mind or it has to be wired into the personality. The approach we have now I think is too much of. A talk approach as though just by talking about ethical issues or thorny dilemmas that's all you have to do. Let us be a little more specific because the book has two chapters on what parents can do and what schools can do and reading the book one gets the impression that in some ways you might be asking schools to do what. In fact parents should be doing. To what extent do you see sex education in schools for instance in public schools

as related to the rise in teenage pregnancy that we have seen in recent years. Well first of all I think that character education should take place primarily in the home and that it's the job of the schools to reinforce the values of the home and that is what used to happen in the past. And I don't think it's happening anymore. I think there's quite a gap between. What parents want and what schools are giving their children as far as the teenage pregnancy problem. I think that our current programs nonjudgemental non-direct. You decide for yourself. Have really been feeding into the problem of teenage pregnancy because the pregnancy rate has remained the same for the last 10 years despite the fact of a declining teen population we have less teens now. But still that pregnancy rate is very high plus the rate of teen sexual activity is

much higher than it ever was. And when you have millions of teens contracting venereal diseases every every year many of them incurable. And you point out that that reality has added fuel to the fire of those who would like sex education taught in the way that it is currently being taught. Those who would like condoms to be handed out to young people in the school you favor and abstinence based form of sex education. But what would you do in the current crisis. How in the current crisis with an abstinence based form of sex education help those teens who are already sexually active. Well I'm saying that the current crisis is a result of the safe sex approach that's been used up until recently. I guess my answer to that is that there are many school systems in which the inner city school systems as well and which the abstinence based approach is working. One of these programs is called Sex respect and a study now that's been going on for five

years and 26 schools with sex respect shows that girls who have gone through that program have a 44 percent lower pregnancy rate. So there is a good deal of evidence that it does work. I'm very much afraid of the mixed message where we say on the one hand you shouldn't have sex you're not old enough you're not ready you're not mature. But we know you're going to do it anyway. And so here are some condoms and I think that's a mixed message it confuses youngsters and it gives them the impression that adults really don't think it's such a bad thing that sort of legitimize their sexual life. From what I remember of the youth rebellion of the 1960s it was a rebellion in large measure or at least in part against what a lot of young people saw as the hypocrisy of their parents teaching them values that in no way were duplicitous they didn't offer any options. This was the way you did it and this was the way you did. And then they saw their father's philandering and then they saw their parents getting drunk all the time

and then they saw a lot of inconsistencies in the behavior of their parents and these very high standard and values that their parents were handing down to them. They felt that their parents were teaching them how to act right. But their parents themselves were acting wrong and there was a kind of rebellion. William rasberry of the Washington Post has wrote that maybe hypocrisy is a good thing for society because it shows that you have standards but it certainly seems that in the 1950s when people were being taught morals and character in school and I couldn't go downtown to eat I couldn't vote that there was obviously some hypocrisy being taught there because if you were being taught to do the right thing and there are groups of people in your society who are being discriminated against and you turned a blind eye to that then wasn't there something wrong at that point. Well hypocrisy is something that we always have with us. But I think one of the important things about presenting good standards absolute standards of

behavior is that gives us a way of seeing when people are being hypocritical when they're not living up to those standards. I would say that today's youngsters are seeing a lot more of their parents sleeping around and getting drunk and using drugs openly now and that. Yes. And I would agree with Mr. Raspberry that in a sense or see shows that people in society are at least trying as ypocras the means that a society does have standards it's trying to live up to. And human nature being what it is. Nobody ever lives up to the standards 100 percent. But but I think one old rule of teaching is that expectations to determine behavior. And if you set the expectations high then behavior tends to rise to that level. I think recently we've been studying the expectations much much too to the telephone caller it's your turn. Thank you for waiting. You're now on the air. Go ahead please. All right yeah. Thanks coach. This is a really interesting thing. I think Mr.

Kirkpatrick is the same I think he Kilpatrick. So Patrick I. He's putting all the blame on teachers. Our community has an obligation to the children be it a policeman legally park he is setting up a trust Park received here. You know he's saying I can't because I'm in uniform parking legally but you can't because you're a civilian you're a citizen or something. I think all of us have an obligation to put it out the teachers that is that is really unfair. That's really unfair. And the hypocrisy of the party leaders like Bush and all this to meet the manager face fire and he's up there telling us how to be moral. I mean let's get real here. You know allow me to have Mr. Kilpatrick respond to your comment. Well I wouldn't put all the blame on teachers certainly it just happens that my book is mainly about education and so I do focus on schools and on teachers although there are chapters on what parents can do and problems with the

media and media pressures on young people. What I feel has happened is that schools have sort of gotten out of touch with with parents and don't pay attention to what parents want and in a sense have been stuck in a sort of 60s philosophy particularly when it comes to values education that many of these drug programs drug education programs sex education programs that we now have are based on the same 60s philosophy that created the explosion in drug use in the first place. I find it interesting. Your critique of drug education programs because the latest we've been hearing from the federal government from the Bush administration is that among young people in particular cocaine use is tapering off. It's being lowered. And I can only assume that that's the result of drug education. I know very few young people who smoke. I can only assume that that's the result of education a lot more people in my age group than

your age group smoke and then young people so if drug education programs are not working why are young people using drugs in general with cocaine in particular less than they did before. Well that's that's quite correct. In the last few years drug use has dropped although I wouldn't give it credit to school programs. I think there's a lot more to drug prevention than just school education. There's law enforcement and interdiction and so on and so forth. What I tried to do in my chapter on drug education was to draw history of the field and the history is that it starts off very much in the late 60s and early 70s in that 60s mode that the whole thing is to get kids to feel good about themselves improve their self-esteem and everything else will take care of itself. Now that didn't work. It was a disaster. What we saw in fact was that those kind of programs actually created more drug use

as time went on more and more of these programs began to turn around and begin to take a more hard line. Just say no and here are ways to say no drugs are bad for you and began to move away from that. Well it's just a personal choice. It's up to you to make your own decision. Well let me talk about the hypocrisy in that for a second because it's always been a sore point with me that while we tell kids all of these terrible things about drug use they turn around and they see their parents drinking alcohol at random and now we see with the decline in cocaine use among teenagers we see a rise in alcohol abuse among teenagers and we grownups say we will educate them about alcohol how can we possibly educate them about alcohol. We tell them that it's socially acceptable for us to use alcohol just that they're not grown enough yet to do it. And they see us doing it to excess and they imitate our patterns of behavior. Why do we have a thing called drug education and it seems we have no credible thing called alcohol education.

Well one of the main points of character education which I favor is that example is the best teacher that you have to have good models of behavior and you're looking for for imitation of those good models and certainly parents adults have to be very careful about the kind of model that they present to young people. And I think it's one thing to take a drink which I think is legitimate for an adult to do. And it's another thing for. Adults to let it get out of hand which they so often do we celebrate the end of every major sporting season by children watching adults on television pouring champagne all over one another and pouring it down their throats when they get the opportunity do we all seem to enjoy the media makes a lot of money off of it. If they didn't they probably wouldn't do it anyway. Let me get back to the telephone. I'm hogging all the questions. It's your turn you on the air. Caller go ahead please. Hello. Yes good evening. You don't look pretty good. Oh really. Yes. It's like me. This gentleman here he seems to have a problem with that. Right.

Like he said he had no problem with alcohol not in control. So people may carry a state where people had no problem providing just a lot of the control the fun for the same purpose alcoholism Nevada among other people due to depression. That we feel that we are going to be helpless to deprive this notice that it can't do that just like adults or anybody else in the educational system. That's what he said. He seems to be that this country needs to be divided now the public school system is for blacks and minorities in private schools. It's this type of case. So I don't know I just think he he'd have it wrong. You could that in the form of a question for you because Mr. co-pastor does have as I said two chapters in his book about what parents should do and what teachers I think schools with schools to do with the end of your book do you feel it is possible to change the public school system at this point. Yes I do.

And I think while the gentleman who called mentioned private schools for some people in public schools for other I think one of the things that will help to change the public schools is this idea of school choice and vouchers for parents whereby they'll be able to put their children in schools that really reinforce their own values and I think that will force the other schools to come around and maybe look twice at this idea of character education. What do you think think that parents can do. Well once again to remember that character education is primarily a matter of forming good habits which starts very young and that's done through good discipline and through practicing helping helping other members of the family maybe helping people outside the family bringing food to a shut in and visiting a sick relative and so on and so forth. We know that in other words because the point

is to get children to the point where good behavior is automatic second nature. And as I say I think the present emphasis on just the talk show approach to teaching values doesn't do that. It's just wrong. I don't mean this kind of talk show of course. Let's talk a little bit about religion and the role it plays in this process because one of the things you pointed out is that religious rituals can help young people to build character in addition to the kinds of things that parents should require young people to do around the home chores and the like and rewards for those things. Religious rituals play an important role. We are becoming an increasingly diversified country religiously We are no longer a country of Christians and Jews we are a country of Muslims and we are a country increasingly of Hindus and all kinds of people are coming here. How do you see that billin operating and still being able to build character. Because as it was defined by you have Pat Buchanan at

the Democratic Convention we are a Christian society and a religious war. Well there were a lot of questions that just came at me let me try to grab hold of one take your time. I suggest the parents try to link home life to some larger vision or purpose outside the home and typically that means having a strong religious faith and practicing it. And I think what we see is that families that do this are successful families whether they're Christians or orthodox Jews or black Muslims or Amish or Asian Americans. Could you give me the other part of the question. The other part of the question is given given that religious diversity. Right. And the notion that a lot of people have that value should be tied to Christianity. How do you feel that the country can both accept religious diversity and at the same time try to understand that all religions can serve to build character.

Well I agree that all religions can and do. And I don't think the basic ethical issues there's much division between the major religions now. I can't recall exactly what Pat Buchanan said in his speech. I do remember him talking about a culture war and I do think there was a sort of culture war going on. I think that's a better term than a religious war the issue because I think a lot of the major religions have to be on one side of the culture war together against non-religious people. Do you think in a way that what we are seeing is a kind of educational subversion taking place in our system by people who by being non-religious by not advocating absolute values are seeping their way into the system and changing it or dominating our public education system.

Well I'm not looking at any I don't see any conspiracy theory. I don't think there's any particular concerted effort to do that. But I do think that a lot of a lot of strange things are happening. For example in the field of sex education. But that off the path. Well I was told by one parent of a school in which the teacher gave an assignment for the students to go home and masturbate read which I found rather bizarre and I think most parents would too. Is that kind of thing and an emphasis on more and more accepting non-traditional lifestyles and failing to talk about traditional families. Paul vits a professor at NYU did a study in the mid 80s of 90 social studies textbooks. Which were meant to introduce young people to American life. And what he found was a systematic exclusion

of references to the family of the words marriage wedding husband and wife never ever give about. And it was he found the same thing with religion for example although Martin Luther King Jr. was mentioned in several of these books. Only one of them bothered to mention that he was a minister. That's all the time we have in this segment. The name of the book is Why Johnny Can't tell right from wrong. The author is William Kilpatrick and we'll be right back. Hey that's it. That's our show for tonight. Our thanks to Congressman Towns and William Kilpatrick for joining

us. Tomorrow we will present a very special weekly news analysis with three very influential and powerful black women join us at 7:00 and meet. See Delores Tucker the chairman of the National Political Congress of Black Women Joe Jackson McCabe the founder of the coalition of 100 Black women and civil rights leader and scholar Mary Frances Berry. That's Friday at 7:00 here on evening exchange. You know the rest from all of us to all of you that night. Bye. Evening exchange depends on your contributions. Please send your donation to W H

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