Evening Exchange; South Africa and Inkatha Freedom Party; Elections in African Countries

The blacks to get the full vote in South Africa after a very bloody struggle and some updates on African countries all up next evening X days. Good evening I'm Kojo Nandi welcome to evening exchange next year South Africa will for the first time in history hold an all race election if you will. This latest move by the ruling National Party challenges the African National Congress among others to make good on claims of popular support. We hear so much about Nelson Mandela and the ANC but tonight we're going to examine another voice in the struggle for power and freedom in South Africa. Joining us tonight is the honorable Dr. Ben. He is the leader and minister of the KwaZulu government delegation in the negotiation process he is also on the executive of the Inkatha Freedom Party. Also with us is Walter Felgate who is also an executive

member of the Inkatha Freedom Party. Gentleman welcome to evening exchange. This is the first time we have been privileged to have. Guess from the Inkatha Freedom Party an evening exchange so our viewing audience will most likely have a great deal of curiosity the first curiosity that I am assuming that they have is when they see that the Inkatha party is represented by both a black person and a white person when they were led to believe maybe that this was a party stemming from the KwaZulu government and that it is an exclusively black party could you explain for our viewers exactly what the Encarta Freedom Party is saying you are a much different part was founded in 1976 in response to the burning. Of the liberation movements. We decided that we were going to oppose a petite within South Africa and we were going to participate in all the legal processes that were possible to participate in Caesarians so she knew we have wanted to be a learned racial party. We were stopped from doing this achieving

this by legislation which was termed improper interference act when the appointed laws were removed. We were the first cultural liberation movement in the country to turn ourselves into a nonracial political party in 1990. We have continued to recruit everyone who is interested. Phyllis if you are in the oak you can politics Mr Felgate when and why did you join the Inkatha Freedom Party. There are many of us in I think our Freedom Party have roots in the ANC. When I was a member of the Liberal Party and the Liberal Party was subjected to into proper interference Act which prohibited mixed color groups along to one party we had to make choices I went to altitude at the time to join the ANC at that time you're talking 1950s and 1950s at that time he said no and I was down to him. Until

stupid lazy started the Inkatha Freedom Party and I was there from the beginning I was member of the team which looked at the regional Constitution and I've been with the IP ever since. Chief among us with the lazy is the head of government of the KwaZulu homeland and also the head of the Inkatha. Freedom Party. Let us begin with what we just talked about. That's happening most likely. April 27 1994 20 of 26 parties participating in the negotiation process for a democratic South Africa have agreed that there should be elections. It is my understanding that in Qatar is one of the parties that is not in full agreement with this. Is that correct. No no it is not correct the two are not agreeing and welcoming the fact that the black majority and so they will be able to exercise its democratic right in choosing a government this is not the issue. We have been working for this since our inception.

We have. Refused to enter into any substantive negotiations with the National Party government when Dr Mandela and other political leaders were imprisoned. We have refused to participate in the troika Maryl system as such because we said we could never negotiate these things when political parties fighting for plague rates were still bent. Now we won the war. As far as that is concerned what we are refusing to accept at the moment is that such an important happening event should be used as part of politicking when the date was mentioned in the multi-party negotiation process as being the twenty seventh of April and that stage we have not even agreed on constitutional principles or what the form of state will be. Allow me to interrupt for a second because there seems to be a different of opinion over when constitutional principles should be put in place whether they should be put in place in this

present multi-party negotiating process or whether they should be put in place after a constituent assembly has been seated and should be put in place by that constituent assembly. You seem to take the side that they should be put in place now for elections. Precisely. Then what would be the function of the constituent assembly. Well the sort of the discussions on process we must agree on a constitution that binds all future government and limits government governmental destructions So there is no abuse of power. We must go to elections to elect a government to whoso the Africa bone play law and not to go to elections to decide who has the right to write our Constitution. Well it seems to me that if you go to elections and you elect a government that is already bound by a constitution then why go through the process of five years of a government of national unity which would be a temporary government to be replaced by a more prominent government why not go into the permanent government situation right now most of

our proposal is that we write a complete constitution in which we protect the core values of democracy. And once we've done that and we secured the country against political adventurism and we secure the country against a government we should want to centralize power and seize power. For itself. We believe that all the parties in the country we are most needed. The core values which for example are enshrined in American Constitution those offer us a valuable that we do not lead in to be at the majority party in elected government because governments but it is my understanding that the negotiations have already reached the point where there won't be simply a majority party in the constituent assembly that half of the seats in the 400 seat constituent assembly will be done on a basis of proportional representation and that the other half will be done on the basis of regional elections. And if that is the case won't that make it very difficult

for one party to control the kind of majority in the constituent assembly that allows that merely to impose its will on the people of South Africa. Isn't that already the case. Whatever you have will you have elections on proportional representation based on that at the regional level or at the national level both at the regional level and the national level. The party who. Achieves the most votes is going to get the most seats they will be majority parties that majority party is likely to be won or one of the three players. And that majority party will then be in a position in terms of the present constitution proposals to adopt a constitution with a simple majority which is not restricted and which is not. But is it not. This is my understanding that the Constituent Assembly won't be able to ultimately adopt anything unless it has a two thirds majority as opposed to a simple majority especially not a constitution is that correct.

Well as the thing stands the proposals that we have the constitution will be adopted by a two thirds majority but in case of deadlock. There would be such a deadlock breaking mechanism that usually result ultimately in a new election for a new national assembly which can then the Constitution should be through 51 percent. Now these are the provisions that immensely because anyone can abuse power given that sort of chance. I suspect beneath all of this from everything I've been hearing and reading that your fear is that the ANC can become the majority party and impose its will. Well precisely the IN C. has had a very close association with Russian communism and Eastern bloc philosophies. We cannot trust the liberty and freedom of our people to a government which could follow deviant ways. But that puts you in company with some very strange bedfellows in the

organization that has been formed called Kosek which means the. Could you help me that they're going to send an African group who concerns African concerns South Africans because it is my understanding that in that coalition with the in-car the Freedom Party is the conservative party and another right wing Afrikaner party doesn't that make you a bit uncomfortable to be in the same organization with people who have spent their entire political lives seeking to maintain the apartheid system and who most people believe still believe in the superiority of whites over blacks and want to maintain that system. Now they come to bring what they get. The Conservative Party and the IAP have got the fundamental differences on the question of constitutions and of constitutional principles. We are not in any kind of alliance of the Conservative Party. What we have gotten quite unfair in cosplay you know that I'm Kaiser but that's me. There's no alliance because that does not imply a particular lines nor does apply any kind of cohabitation is comprised of parties who reject the bilateralism which have

driven the National Party and the ANC forward and which have placed a straitjacket on the negotiation process. That's what we've got in common and I think this is one of the great expressions of democracy in that country when parties such as the IP and the cons of body which are fundamentally different of each other on constitutional issues can join together on a process problem and can come together and put the good of South Africa above they and particularly interest. We are not in Kosek party political purposes is the point of unity the issue of some degree of autonomy because it is my understanding that the conservative and the other right wing party are interested in a kind of Afrikaner national base and that that the COT the Freedom Party wants to make sure that the homelands in general the independent territories and and KwaZulu in particular cannot have an ANC will imposed upon it. And while you do not characterize it as an alliance to be getting together with people who whose interest is to

maintain an Africana national homeland seems a bit unusual. You know we are not agreed on that at all. We have made it very clear to the Conservative Party and related groupings that we can never accept a situation where there would be deep revelation of people's rights based on color. We have said what you stand for is decentralization of power dispersal of power in such a way that we do not go through another 40 years of highly autocratic sort of trading rule that we had as a nation and party government. We see we stand for decentralization for participation for limited government. And these are the things that we say to the after going to use this as a base as a starting point and not a poorest African state purely at this point. Are you prepared to participate in the April 27 1994 election. And if not what has to happen in order for you to participate.

We're not prepared to participate in an election under the Constitution as it is now gone up. The Constitution has been in the Monye has stated. Has clawed back positions for a leading party in a constituent assembly who cannot get a 66 percent majority and who can end up writing the constitution that they want to can with a 51 percent majority. That is for us to hit the gym. We also do not believe that we should in the first election offer 400 years of civic duty on the backs of African side to election in which the issue at stake is who is going to write the constitution. That is not to the basis for an action that will be divisive for society and we now need instruments which will bring society together. We need it. Constitution development which when he lifts the to make the issue of who is going to write the constitution. A party political fight is folly in the extreme.

Chief both are limited to three days he has indicated that not only will he not participate in the election if the situation is not changed but that he is going to lead a significant process against a protest against it and he has implied fortuity stated that that will be the first step in civil war. Is that your intention. No not at all. We've always eschewed violence you know political activities. In fact we had a complaint against the process itself in terms of the application of sufficient consensus. We took it to the Supreme Court. We didn't go to the streets. We didn't go and create mayhem and disorder. I want I well he's warning is exactly the same as he's warning in 1983 when President P.W. Botha was establishing a comer in Parliament overseas. He warned that we're excluding blacks you will generate violence and indeed in 1994 we had valiance. He's warning again that if we go to finality with a process that does not have the national consensus we gained running the risk of polarization divisions and chaos that's all

he's doing. Violence which has been astute by everyone involved but nevertheless occurs. There was a meeting between the lazy and Mr. Mandela in June. Nevertheless there was violence once again in the tower province in August and there have been enough atrocities committed on both sides for the situation to be deplored. But starting around July of 1991 the you had a suburban Weekly Mail began to report that both the South African security police and the South African military had in fact given money and some degree of training to supporters of the Encarta Freedom Party does that not. It certainly makes in the West for those of us who who do not live in South Africa it certainly makes the intentions of the Encarta Freedom Party seem at the very least suspicious. Well that was an unfortunate incident but it does put it in this context pleased at that stage. Violence was at its height. I was ns of 50

people in Zulu people and so on with being cute. Now if members in our party. Take help from someone it cannot be blamed on us because we never said to know our highest comes to decide this. It was a group of people in desperate need of their assistance. It was never a party political decision and we came out very clearly that we regretted circumstances that brought that about. Indeed some people lost their positions but were allowed after a certain period of time to regain their positions in the Inkatha Freedom Party. There was another scandal having to do with members of the Inkatha Freedom Party being trained in Israel and of course we know that the kind of support that the ANC has received from the Soviet Union when it existed in other countries. But is there given the criticism that the nation of Israel has received in the past for its closeness with the South African government. Again does that training in Israel not cast a shadow on the

Inkatha Freedom. There's been no training whatsoever in Israel. That's just totally untrue. Maybe the Weekly Mail report was completely untrue that was untrue there's been no training in Israel and the training that was given to roughly 300 I mean in this was given in previous to having a defense force and it was training that's in the media in Namibia and was trying to do equip the members of the IAB to predict key installations and to protect the lives of people. They were defensive in nature. Let us talk for a little bit about the always controversial issue of popularity I have looked at that as one of them said if an election were conducted tomorrow the ANC would win 60 percent the national party 40 percent the pope the Pan-Africanist Congress would win 11 percent and the Inkatha Freedom Party 5 percent Another one says if it were held tomorrow the ANC would win 40 percent the National Party 30 percent the Inkatha Freedom Party 11 percent the Conservative Party 5 percent on the PNAC and others very little. You have to win at least 5 percent in this April

election to become eligible for seats in the constituent assembly. How do you estimate the chances of the in-car the Freedom Party was that so far better than 5 percent. 7 percent certainly Natal was in reach in short of more than 85 percent of the vote. The poll says that you only have 31 where we challenge them if they do not use in those polls because most of them a connected to a telephone and a lot of our support is in rural areas. Even if it is in the cities it is without phones because generally it is disadvantaged people. So those polls are not reflecting the real situation. The ANC has at least expressed some concern about going into this electoral process how this should work in KwaZulu homeland because it claims that the mechanisms of government administration are so much under the control of the Inkatha Freedom Party that ANC supporters whom they claim to have in large numbers in

KwaZulu Natal will be afraid to go to the polls. So they are calling for some different security apparatus to be in place other than the existing causal apparatus for the election in causal. If you participate how do you feel about your own party political propaganda on the part of the ANC. The cross is going to show that the Inkatha Freedom Party does have a significant relationship with the quantity government and therefore access to the administrative powers it's a ruling body and as a ruling party it controls they say it's the only party. The party has been established after four separate elections each of which were open and will multiparty in nature. If the ANC and other parties did not fight the elections it was because they wouldn't stand a chance of actually gaining seats. So the elections have produced a constitution a constitutional government and that government has got the ruling party. It is perfectly true that some areas in areas they know the areas

for IAP the ANC itself has made no go areas for the National Party and the Democratic Party in the Cape. But there is certainly no reason to say that its a matter of cause with government action which is made difficult. One final question in this segment. In the event that the ANC is able to win a majority are you looking for a constitution then to prevent the ANC as majority from being able to make decisions in a parliament in South Africa. Are you in agreement with President the clerk's position that the National Party should have some kind of fetal power or that the minority parties should have some kind of veto power in that constituent assembly and in the ultimate part of Parliament. What we want for a country. Is constitutional government a constitution of states where only governmental action is subject to review by the constitution of courts. All government action is just the sheeple. We want to

penalize those institutions that act as checks and balances on anyone given the duty to hold the country if we have a constitution like that. We can have elections tomorrow and we will be confident that whoever wins the country will uphold free don't because he would be so low. We do have to take a short break right now later in the program an update on the progress in several war torn African countries. But up next more on the Inkatha Freedom Party with the chairman of the African Studies Department here at Howard University. Stay with us. Welcome back to evening exchange we're discussing the role of the Encarta Freedom Party in the

negotiation process for. An all race election in South Africa joining us in this segment is Dr. saleman Young who is the former chairman of the Department of African studies here at Howard University the current chairman is Dr. Robert Cummings who has also been a frequent guest on the evening exchange still with us Dr. Ben bunny who heads the KwaZulu government delegation in the negotiation process. He's an interim executive of the Inkatha Freedom Party and Mr. Walter Felgate also on the executive of the party Dr. and yang. From what you have heard us discussing in the first part of this program to what extent do you think it will be possible to have an election in South Africa April 27 given the position of the Inkatha Freedom Party and the whole costes coalition if you will. Well I think it's going to depend really on how firm the party is on its resistance to any kind of election. And it depends

on behind the scenes negotiations between the Encarta party and Sony leadership. You know I think there is duplicity ability of accommodation if the two sides in this dispute willing to work out some kind of compromise or the less you are really moving toward a confrontation which is not going to be very good for South Africa. Dr. Nuland Kahn characterizes the dispute as having two sides and people generally believe that whenever we talk about this negotiation process we are talking on the one hand either about the National Party and the ANC or on the other about the Inkatha Freedom Party and the ANC is he correct. Does this boil down to a negotiation process between you and the ANC. Well essentially it does because. When you look at the Reid position in South Africa the major parties are in fact the Ngata freedom fighting the ANC. The only significance of the National Party is that it is in government so it is and they had him of state authority.

But the solution we did the accommodation ultimately must be between the African National Congress and if the African National Congress sees itself as being able to win the majority in the April election and therefore sees itself as being in a position to write a new constitution for South Africa what does the Encarta Freedom Party have to bring to the table to persuade the ANC to have that constitution written and sealed in concrete before the election takes place. The Constitution must empower a Liberal government it must empower democracy and must establish a situation in which the IAP or the ANC whoever turns out to be the opposition can be a loyal opposition. They must speak on clearance and agreement about the fundamental issues and they are not yet sufficient areas of agreement between the ANC and they I see but the basic issues to do with the Constitution what are those basic issues

the need for a constituent assembly which is only been tried twice in the history of the Worlds and the Second World War ones in India and one scene in the Via. Its an anomaly in terms of constitution making any way in the world. We are not necessarily confined to that as a form of constitution making. We do not believe that any ruling party any majority party with as I do any other party can be relied on to muzzle itself. For US Constitutions are about the limitation of the power of the state and then maximize ation or the liberties of the beaver. And you can't rely on the ruling party to do so. We are totally opposed to the Constitution making the deadlock breaking mechanisms which are part of the present proposal. So those are the fundamental issues and the others but those are some of the most fundamental issues which have to be addressed and they're not yet been inducting into a general questions the constituent assembly process seems to have worked in the May be to what extent can one expect a party such as the ANC to allow a constitution

to be written before an election in which it might win a majority takes place. Well I think the South African situation is slightly different from let me be a generation judge every case more complex. A number of problems which are Africans both whites and blacks and Africans must grapple with it. Now the Constitution I mean the Constituent Assembly approach could work in South Africa. Again if the South Africans are willing to make it work now it can only work under two conditions. Do I see it. One is that some of the Tony problems that are now beating the ANC and the income I resolve and of course the white minority in South Africa is also given some sense of security which in got us insistent on what I would call state rights in the American context would make the in cut allies to order minorities because this is where the constitutional issue becomes very

critical. In the South African situation. So you're not only getting promises from the lips of politicians but have you have those promises in green in the Constitution. Let's talk about this issue of states rights as you characterize it so that the American audience can understand. It is my understanding that of the initial 10 homeland territories that were supposed to become independent only four ultimately achieved independence and that is not one of those but even those that achieved independence depend for their virtual existence on subsidies from the South African government South African taxpayers money have to be going into these homelands. Why do you expect a constitution to be written in which that level of autonomy should be allowed by a new government whose taxpayers have to fund what goes on in these territories but who have no say over how these territories are governed. Isn't that a little much to expect.

Well the idea is that the SO is going territories. I know it geo political entities or which of the new state simply based. For instance you know our case was an Atari. You know there was a borders disappear to be created was it in that state. In other words the engineering would be reversed. It would not be carried through. Equally so some of these TPV states of the independent states. I couldn't be viable so there there has to be original ization of state borders. Also you're not insisting that the homelands and the independent states within certain borders remain exactly as they are no not at all. But we say for instance in our case of was an attack on their geo political and historical realities that make this essentially one state you know and has sufficiently distinct characteristics from other regions of South Africa both in terms of the population mix the demography as well as the history of historical evolution. So

we see those characteristics must be must be given expression in the federal Constitution. In addition to which the concerns you expressed earlier and in much of the literature that I have read indicate that your fear of what the ANC might do is related to the ANC as domination as you see it by the Communist Party of South Africa. You mention the words of Chris Huhne in your published do you mention some of the words of Joe Slovo But the fact is that communism is dead in Eastern Europe and a lot of people outside of the United States which I guess in which people can still believe that people can cling dearly to those ideas may find it ludicrous to argue that the ANC will attempt somehow to impose a communist system on South Africa what leads you to believe. And Dr. Young I'd like to hear your comment on this at this point. What leads you to believe that the ANC still clings to communist ideology and communist values.

The present fight Love is about extreme levels of political intolerance and that intolerance and money from the value system embodied by a lot of the ANC follow us. I have no doubt that given the chance we will be forced into the Patriotic Front. We should eventually mean a one party state. Why why do you say that is what I'm going to get because of the intolerance that's going on. You know there is no acceptance of Africa should have free and full multi practising You know these days always. You're saying that the ANC card race advocate a one party state despite what its leaders say publicly about being interested in a multi-party democracy. We are saying this firstly that if you look at the fact that the ANC are insisting on the day look they dock breaking mechanism if you look at the fact that the ANC are insisting on watering down the closes in the Constitution which relates to the end of ship of land it's not a right. They are back

clauses which would have that down if you look at the fact that the free enterprise system advocated within the Constitutional language of the draft constitution. The ANC again are insisting that the central state can have overriding powers which negate the principles of free enterprise it throws in the Constitution. We are concerned that the ANC still advocates the fact that it was not communism which failed in Russia but Russian leaders. The fact that Cosatu is dominated by ACP leaders and agencies executive dominate plays ACP leaders and the whole approach to the Constitution making is undemocratic. We are concerned that once we have given this kind of force in the Constitution making free reign we will then find that the ANC begins to work out a strategy in which the first elections or first step which will be followed by a drive towards a centrist

and a one party state where you see a different view about that because I see your view that communism as an international system is terribly weak and that doesn't mean to say you don't have communists in order parts of the world you may still have dreamers who believe that communism could be resurrected. In the South African context communism has two purposes in my view. One is that it has been used by all of a regime to drum up support in the West thereby getting Western fears in the service of a perfect now that communism is dead and her fate itself is on its dying bed in South Africa. Communism as a fact is no longer very relevant. What is important though and I think the constitutional guarantee or the arguments that have been made by Encarta and others would be much stronger if the eye view along the lines of protecting minorities regardless of their racial class or Sushil

tribal backgrounds. So this way you have guarantees in the South African constitution for minorities because white South Africans are not going to disappear even on the ANC dominated government because the ANC Jr. and Zimbabwe are going to stay there. So for that reason you have to have some guarantee for minorities. Now the encounter is not going to disappear because South Africa became a temporary multiracial society and I thought that is gone. The Internet is going to be dead. They have to have some guarantee as an opus ition and I think that is something that they have the right to play for at this particular juncture in their history. Let me go to the telephone thank you for waiting call you're on the air go ahead please. Why can't the parting point by a man alleged to be perpetrated by street level supporters and does this reflect assuming the current party does support it. Does it reflect their lack of faith

in the usual system which is why they would apparently take the law into their own alley thinking alleged in packs. Thank you very much. To what extent does the Inkatha Freedom Party support the violence in the streets and to what extent does that mean that you don't believe in the judicial system. Well our president Dr. Patel is has repeatedly called and talked to Mandela. There they go together to address joint rallies haven't they done that. It's not been done yet. OK. You know by these a lot of has a lot of hesitancy on the side of the ANC to do this. We up all of it is over people who are at the receiving end. We don't have a private army to protect our people. We depend entirely on the judicial system each other for carrying out these protests. The process of protecting the individual and we are not getting such as fiction even from that court.

Well since the ANC isn't here let me also say that the ANC has said that they have been on the receiving end of most of the violence. And they argue that since the in-car the Freedom Party has more influence with the police inquiry who inquires on the homeland that the police do not help the ANC very much but it is clear that there has been violence on both sides and atrocities have been committed on both sides what is it that keeps the two leaders have spoken. They have both held press conferences together denouncing this isn't that important that they appear together. Well I mean that they go. Can I just follow up on this. Yes. Why is the ANC still taking young boys to Uganda to be trained in guerrilla warfare. What happens when they get back after training away deployed. What I mean. Just tell us was this is a contradiction in terms of saying I want peaceful transition. I am not aware that the NC is taking young boys to Uganda for training so I cannot verify or deny that statement but I can go to the telephone. Thank you for

waiting call you're on the air go ahead please. Yes this is a gentleman representing. It seems to me that the present process of the political situation in South Africa that people are lazy and carpet at the present process once the ANC does when the elections if they win the election that they're they it looks like they should. It seems to me that your power would be greatly tied to it. And how would you respond to one would say that that's your fear of the present negotiations. That's just not true. We are quite prepared to be a loyal opposition and in many respects be the much more comfortable to be a loyal opposition than it would be to the party in power faced with an enormous task and the impossible task of meeting the electorate's requirements. We are not opposed to the fee addictions we're not opposed to any party winning election or the already quieting is that we have a constitution in which they can be changes of government because the people require that. That for us is the beginning and end of the

moccasin. One thing is very clear and that is because Dr. Salih manya and I do not live in South Africa and have not had relatives on either side of the dispute between NC Indian caught a party be killed in that dispute then we do not have the same level of distrust on either side that is apparent in these negotiations and one can only hope that that distrust can fade away and that some agreement can be reached so that there can be elections in South Africa. On April 27 1994 Gentlemen good luck to you. Let me return an update on what's happening in a few other African countries. Stay with us. Welcome back to evening exchange the continent of Africa has made a big splash often on

international national and local newspapers usually with incomplete accounts of ongoing hostilities in various countries. In this segment we'd like to update you on some of these countries like Ethiopia golden Nigeria Liberia if we have the time because still with us is Dr. Salih Munyon who as we mentioned earlier is the former head of the African Studies Department here at Howard University Dr. Young to start with Nigeria because there was a much heralded election held in Nigeria there was long preparation for this election. There were provincial elections that preceded the local elections that preceded it. And then when it eventually ocurred the president of the country General said I don't like it. I'm calling off the results of it. And most recently he has put in as the titular head of the country and individual who can best be described as a puppet. There are ongoing protests against what has occurred but where will this all leads. Well Nigeria really is no crossroad and

any team can have one any time in Nigeria based on the information available to me. Now the thing is the only thing I can say really right now is that the elections where Arnold by the out I mean the former president who retired and now of course he has. He handed over power to achieve second. Who came from the same town as the president denied bula bula. And I must say that the owner was supposed to be a friend of President. Yeah he was a good friend I mean because you know they were part of these what I call the into the ethnic. Elite in the US nobody is poor among the proto cleric in Nigeria and of course what is very interesting as I said to us when I you know friends is that because I mean the town from where sonic and I view it and form of Nigerian head of state over US and

UK enjoys the distinction of being the only town in the world where you have three presidents really have the same phone is in town and one of them was supposed to be president. One was drafted the order one was denied to be president. Now this is a very interesting development and it has serious implication for Nigerian society. Now those democratic forces in Nigeria would definitely like to see. Reinstated as the president. But of course there are very powerful forces in Nigeria who are very suspicious of Bula personally and who are also very disturbed by the way he behaves since he was elected president and the money in which he left the country. Now of course if you are supporters have told me that he had no choice he had to leave the country because there were forces after him now. Real or imagined the fact is in Nigeria right now there is a crisis. The formal

government of president probably has the Nigerians to have a democratic system by the time he leaves office. Of course he changed his mind three times before he finally decided to sanction the elections which led to the election of Abiola. But there is one point of clarification now which should be made here and that is the Nigerian government. That is the electoral commission in Nigeria which was headed by a provision was never. Announce the results of the election. That's true it was the Nigerian press and some of the international groups that came out with the figures suing that Beulah won but based on the results that were announced by the electoral commission itself a viewer definitely was leading. To address the crisis you do we have a situation in which General Babangida while not being the titular head of state is still the most powerful individual in the country. And what

kind of international pressure this seems to have been a distinct lack of international pressure in this situation I'm not sure. Well I think you see a bugler candidacy as president elect was very much compromised by two things One is the fact that his own party. Was drawn into disarray by his departure from Nigeria because soon after he left Nigeria chief an Indian who is the chairman of his party went on BBC the was the dirty linen of the party. I mean and of course really did seal the fate of Abiola because in a way it was now driven between the poor leadership that remained in Nigeria and of your love abroad and of course that to let extend weaken his position. The other thing we work against and I think it is not set in Washington but I think it is a very important point is default that Buno has been very much identify with the

reparation movement and you're familiar with that yes. And of course there are some controversial people who are linked with that movement and of course I don't think President Clinton is very worried and I want to be that either that the State Department has not really come out very strongly in favor of the condemn the annulment of the elections. But what I've you know was expecting food support from the State Department and the White House. And sending signals to Nigeria telling son Akin that you have to prepare the state for the reinstatement of a bill and that has not happened. So what we have in Nigeria is an ongoing crisis and that's particularly ironic because Nigeria is the most powerful influence in the echo was forces which are in Liberia with the intention of overseeing the installation of Democratic rule in Liberia. The last time we visited this issue at the early part of the summer we had some representative of Charles Taylor's party here and Charles Taylor of course has been portrayed generally as the

villain in all of this. In Liberia can you give us an update on that situation. Well I think the Liberians are now moving towards the resolution of their problem. It is very interesting and very ironic as you pointed out that Nigeria played a very leading role in destabilisation of Liberia is now thrown into confusion by VIKKY of the actions of the military leadership over there. But in Liberia now you need things are beginning to move towards resolution. I mean just a little. And the government headed by a militia has a soya. Have come to some understanding. And of course that agreement is to be implemented. We hope that there is no use for it down the road. I am sure that the Liberians now are tired of war and would like to really start reconstructing their society they are good people and of course it's unfortunate really that thousands of people have been lost because of this

tension and confusion. So I think Liberians themselves have been telling me that well listen big brothers from Nigeria are giving us Law and Order. Now they have to get a law and order in their own country and we want to be democratic. Ethiopia there was supposed to have been some form of agreement in Ethiopia leading to worse decisions over what the territories that wanted to be independent could be independent and theres not been a great deal about that in the news lately what's happening. Well I think you know the interview and situation really is still very. Much unstable in some areas of course the Ethiopian government agreed to sanction the independence of every child they had no choice because the theatre company and but anyway they. It was I make it will divorce. So you know when I separate way. And of course it will maintain itself. Now the

problem in Ethiopia right now is to what extent the ruling party in Ethiopia now on the scene now we would be able to work out a modus vivendi. We do various ethnic groups and of course in the situation you have what I call the two losers you have. It's not only a change of government from mongoose to to this new group. You need to appear but you also have a chain of ethnic rulers. I mean all along the dominant forces in Ethiopia in history at least for the last century where they are hers and they played a very important role in developing political culture in Ethiopia. Now of course many of those people feel victimized by the former secretary of state because they blame him a lot. Former Secretary of State for I mean form of the Africa have been

going for letting the Tigre I think great people of the great barrier but I don't think that is a fair characterization but that has been said by many to opinions but I think what has happened really is that like in all human power struggles you have the ins and the outs. It would be in such a society right now the people are dominant because it's a great liberation party was able to work out some kind of modus vivendi with ethnic leaders. And they received a call by some of the opponents of the regime ethnic satellites and of course does it think satellites real or imagined. Now I have to work out a modus vivendi in the pool's mongers to reconstruction of utopia. And this is where you have a serious problem in Utopia. To what extent. New leaders you need to be committed to a unitary government as it was on the Hill Selassie. And when this to all idea really willing to

reconstitute it into a federal structure whereby the sea fears and anxieties that we talk about in South Africa walked out of your situation to get up at islands between the two. Let's jump across to the other side of the continent in Angola where there was an election that was held that was internationally supervised and which the international observers agreed that the NPL a government of Eduardo dos Santos had won and in which Mr Jonas Savimbi who was the loser in that election and for many years received military and financial support from a great deal of the Western world decided that he didn't like it. He decided to go back to war again in this continuing military activity in which it is claimed that the casualties are worse than we are hearing about from Bosnia and Serbia and in which the war just seems to be going on. Now uncle is a very serious case and goodwill has the largest number of beauties on the planet because of the number of land mines.

And right now the number of people if we had to trust the media we regard to the number of people who are dying every day in Angola. It is frightening. The U.N. special representative learned in bay from Mali. Report recently reported recently that the situation is very bad it was done in Bosnia and in Somalia and that something must be done now. The problem really in Angola I see you have to report Awami problem in Angola. The first problem really is the problem of political culture political state building and political running out of time very quickly. The second one is economic development we cannot have one. Because right now the Angolans have been some people have speculated that the NGOs have already mortgaged seven years of the oil production in Cabinda So there is a problem. You know several of them is reconstruction. And these are issues that we will revisit again on the evening exchange but we thought you needed to have the

short update we have to take a short break we'll be right back.