Dick Meisler Interviews Arthur Morgan (Part B)

And so you feel that in the circumstances in which you grew up there was relative freedom from that from prejudicial attitudes to a large degree of freedom. I knew I didn't know more or have it as a negotiator. I thought of that as I did other people. And there were some of the European races that Fred was patient Europe invited over here somewhere. Yeah. Polls in some areas had had a kind of a guess but that was minor. Where I say is that the largest proportion of foreign born of any state in the union. And I got along well. I'd like to change the subject again. When when one talks with you or hears you speak. The influence of Darwin becomes becomes quite clear you grew up in it in a period of time which was

strongly under the influence under the intellectual influence of Darwin and the theory of Everwood evolution. Another major intellectual influence of the time goes back to Freud. And I was wondering whether you have any reflections upon psychotherapy in general and the whole line of thinking in the view of man that has come from Freud I know I have not yet. Equated lash out. With pride to. The extent to be thought of. And. I give you feel. Government should accept that. I.

I found quite a bit I agreed with his psychology. But now I should I rent. I want to get sick or hurt in my. Writing. Yes and. I have made up my mind I tried to be. I didn't want to lose the value to our culture and yet it seemed to be this absence of questions I thought I would NEVER MIND I have to ask all questions I was told to Don't think about it that's bad. I came to conclusion that it seemed to me a real question and that I must ask questions when I think one of the influences of Darwin is to. It's to emphasize the continuity of human life with the rest of nature one of the influences of Freud is to give us a more complex and deeper view of human psychology than probably existed

when I read something and tried to add that I felt that. To some extent had had picked up elements and and really did pretty hard. Yes that's right. Some of Freud's more aggression followers. I thought it. Over. Over every show they showed elements. And. I. Asked myself whether I didn't need to spend time with her and I could see their age they knew their best Washington to do actually in the pattern I had. I think that's right. When you think back and over the people whom you've known and worked with who have become involved in

psychotherapy do you feel that it was a productive influence in their lives. I wasn't great associated closely associated many people. I didn't see her show she asian very much because I shall what they were doing. And it seemed to me that a normal human living didn't need to. Emphasize some of those elements as much as they were being emphasized. Are you talking about the sexual dimension of human human life that was emphasized by Freud the sexual against. Somebody. I did. There's applications. I didn't say. That I think you have taken this but especially but it seems to be about pressure.

Yes. And I never became a specialist in that field. When one thinks about the interests that young people have these days. One of the things that comes to mind is their very intense interest in eastern and Oriental philosophy. And. I know that I know that you have spent some time and done some work in Asia. I wonder to what extent you do your own thinking has been influenced by Eastern philosophy. And not so much. Purely Hindu philosophy. Yeah just. By a personality. I had a deep regard her. But he did.

And. I have others but. I really departed from. Nikkei lost. There were sure I never mentioned it. But there was. A section. I think it made a kind of dogmatism. There's a very fine quality. Inquiry there. But I read some of the things I had said. Maybe you're flush with each who worship should publish right know which books you're thinking right.

I know which books you're thinking of but I don't remember. I really thought I would be getting a room and I held interest. Yes there is. I did not object to that. I could your god they did without objection. It is outside of the objectivity. And I. I was rather trying to. Objection or inquiry as she approaches question she should try called changing attitude. And I didn't feel that that was necessary but she did post production to be productive. Do you find as you look back over your life that there were elements of mystical experience that are emphasized in eastern philosophies

emphasized to the to the disadvantage of objectivity. I found Michele and I asked. Who I bring up her own objective conclusions. Take my own intuition I think intuition in the issue in question something said race director a spiritual reality. I shouted. Objectivity. And it came to conclusion that I manage intuitions. I the product of many. We manufacture ish the normal person said his biological drives contributed to each object. His early teachings your striking experience she's had and that he's reading

his his education. I try to residue. Every kind of influence. And. Just reach its intuition as a separate creation separate from our earliest sayings. I hear it's a mistake and I have an intuition I try to examine that intuition just as I think I haven't any other fact. Yeah. And I add after I fall into issues rather than my religion because I feel it. Intuition may be to measure your experience as my reasoning may be that you know you are if you look and sometimes I am I just have a feeling that. If that's conclusion. It's probably do sort of a more noble and more experiencing that line of reasoning. But I get a pressure of considerations.

Six from my right eye. Sometimes I don't follow my. Intuitions until I have my back I have more right after this guidance missions. Yes that often you know like you. And me better than I who fundamentally should change. Because as I say they reflect a wide range of experience. Earlier today when I was anticipating talking with you I try to imagine and this is very hard for me to do of course. I try to imagine the circumstances of your childhood and to compare it with the circumstances of children growing up in America today. And I come up with a couple of obvious contrasts but perhaps you can help me more. Earlier during the early part of your life time people lived in extended families. I suspect in which

large groups of Badr groups of related people lived together. Aunts uncles grandparents and so forth. Whereas today we we live by and large in the nuclear family. It probably in your childhood we lived in small communities now we live in large communities. I this point in time in our current households today we have the enormous influence of the mass media and radio and television being brought to bear on children at early ages whereas it was the personalities of a small community that were brought to bear on our own children in earlier times. Can you reflect about the difference is that these factors resulting in a lot of really on the shoulder. Michel every day as a regional migration. And. I handed relatively a Shochet sure on Fridays to me I sing

and. I had. I didn't have. I had when I was grown and that mad people can't imagine editions of that pressure media. And if we were we were new people there. So that's an old old tape. Community should wash the town I lived in when the time machine any percent of the people. Were rationed by my goods and Roman Catholics Irish and I remember having had I was at an Order of Merit and we were on good terms but we were strangers I know you are a stranger I wish I was or I don't you know there was a mobility and strangeness that was more like contemporary America than it was typical. Well at least eastern seaboard America at that time. Yes I love you very much. I spent. Some time just as I would kind of.

Carry. Her would. I love just having a German background. And Germany. And there are evidently having a little bit of pleasure as I was near it. And here I found my structure that I never shared and I think a great British had not my share. As these people had integrated as there are units here. I heard my grandparents lived worked. There and I don't. Think I heard high grade spoken there. Every member of the Jaime her grandchildren or grandparents or have their duties as a casual. And very orderly existed as wonderfully orderly and with an I never heard it does me good. Calling

understand me and that I have just as I did I live is one of my great experiences just aren't Irish like Schreiber having. Back fresh in Germany one of the most dramatic of the recent technological developments is the mass media. How do you think they change our lives and how do you think they come to bear upon the growing child. And. I. Feel that. That. Is sharp and they respect their IRA. Making commonplace. Experiences A. Brotherhood we read a hundred look at it's. The fact I lack your gracious and kindness. And that in my look asked to a large extent. And I think that.

We need mash. Actually I take that. One of my shovel that Pashto should children and the continuity of culture is not about leisure of today is a cultural thing. A tragic sad. It's partly biological but it's quite lies a cultural and child becomes the pattern that you version too. Now there are elements of culture that people who work for here are trying to refine their lives and yes maybe less dependable less integrity. And. So forth. So that would make. And when it was chaos and. As Josh which I know there's been a great price paid for her. How delusional how Giroud should do nothing. Now if we

should drop the separation we don't touch. We really should be very important. And so I should make sure I in one respect I should have freedom from from one's background that should it should be held objective there critically. It had all been your background is obsolete. I learned that if you could have prayed it objectively. We don't know how to get it because you are against it because you knew he would see what effect was you having about the question he would live. He could make that kind of a distinction. Then we will shed Shabbat Hayes together he's. Done for mass communications media represent the possibility of communicating in a very direct way to people. The continuity of cultures and of the unity of mankind.

That's. That kind of duty a culture. Maybe continuity mediocrity. It's quite common it has to be and the oppression has paid a great price for a shy status as a House report. If he had he has 72 or so operation. And if he is in number shower I guided by number. We will not be eyelash level experience. Because the average Persian ish is a rather mediocre Persian. And the Arab leadership has such a thing as people who have been paid a great pressure and passion. And some of the elements in a culture. Have been one of the big great price and it's headed by now there were such that it is so common. I think it

was too bad because people just tend to shed the whole pattern of the culture and what is needed is a discredit any objective inquiry and a selection Additionally keep visual imagery she had to show them that we do it with thought and care and effort and we put a lot of the right to do it. If we can we can actually do it. We care about examine compare and try and. Experiment to ask question is that it should I manage precious should we hide and shut up as they should i. Should be actually right without question actually impressions your part. Let's conclude by talking about education. You. You educated yourself largely And you've done quite well without formal education without much formal education. If you were growing up

today do you think that the formal institutions of education would have much to offer you but you think you would be attracted to the same process of self education which you pursued when you were a young man it was known as house education. Just by accident. A great American. And whenever he was pressured to hire a Haitian government Shushi did Lincoln's cabinet. Sure he wanted to expression is appreciated for a member of our community and he said to him I library three thousand volumes are the cream of the world literature and the rule book over me chop. I have good with there I found a cross-section. We're a little sure that it was rare and I often wonder what I would have

done with libration II. Well I think that makes my question even more relevant because as a growing person today as a young man today you would have access to that sort of library almost any place in the country I suppose to a library to work and I wonder did I say should I how such trivial to trash it had little value. I went back to my town to see what happened there and I inquired around. Just how just process I didn't know it so I went back to it. What happened to those books where are they there now still there and I think I hear people it has a spirit of the library and much above the average American Library. Well let me ask the question in a more direct way then do you feel that the that what formal institutions of

education are offering young people today is relevant and helpful to them to the problems of growing into being a productive adult. I think that our education in trouble now when you take teachers you're going to strike doesn't represent a good beautiful cultural relationship and they feel you know. Rebellion against I guess you little culture is lots. If I say the establishments where people do we are taught by the way people do it more and more there by books and in the way people do. I rush article. We become shit and. I feel that we did some adventure in education

and India. I did two things with a large care one a small scale I was a member of the universe distribution and there were 10 members of it and 80 percent of the people were villagers had about the same status as indeed had a negro has been shipping there are ignored in education and I had. Proposed we set up a new institution I called them a rural University rural issues and by a commission of 10 had only one friend. All of us are against it. Yeah I want Fred to see all the Bush commission and we were a lot of very loving. The question here we both can be sure and India has built 350 to try to rule Russia. It's a fairly fundamental change. I let you know

that I love village and South India. I thought I was bad. Like oh my God to answer your fire boy bided I shall have. No ironic part of it about I think I probably would probably be sort of this big threat. What were the qualities of this man he had been to school or to go or encouraged to. God just basic education school and then he was a great guy and then that bit a generation before him a man like a gardener who out of small scale he got his picture here. He was a free man he he washed for British he was even big and.

He he he had respect for you about love. He had tolerance for people patience with people and concern for people. And he had his picture. Education was like education how to touch everything going to be everything. But sure the academic education is good. Academic education began because before it began people learned by the human relationships. But there are some of these heeler relations just shifted thresher it interested in literacy occurrences and so that we picked out what was fact Elater lie and separate because of the school. And we pick people out of life and put them into school. Oh yeah that's has tended to leave out the partial life we grew

by before there was a school. And I have had a picture of a school I had the passion I had hoped ability what I ever got to write ever got and where growing up a child he has an academic trait he had economic trade he had surgery have symmetry. I was very he had health tragedy and he did physical development although he would be would come into his experience. That's average education would be. And I certainly shall end it. Here. Look cached version and I've been trying to pay attention to where I spent writing out three ten fifteen years. That's not a small scale is it.

But true the case today is it is a truly coming close to your ideals of what education should be. The trouble is to find associates for that. He's got a bright young brother a great personage over here and I we're getting a big American education that's conventional but in trying to get an accredited business by we should show him back home a big community I think to economic growth. Thanks guys. Doc sure everybody. Sees Were they don't have toilets and dishes but I don't need your figures and you can take your show. And so children I show up. Yes very wherever service or RAMSI to food they don't get it

and they're stupid just for having worms. Let me take you on and brush race to high when you talk about having a party and we had a Bishop pretty impression working shop. And textile shops we had to house the whole crush on her I asked. I'd like to see education become a more evidence of living. Let me ask you about a controversy which comes up in educational experimentation in America generally and certainly at Antioch over the last few years. There's a controversy between two emphases one emphasis is upon the discipline that a student needs preferably from a person who is older than him and more experienced. And the other emphasis is upon giving the student

freedom to to follow his own. To follow his own inclinations and perhaps to waste his time in ways that he wouldn't if he were more tightly controlled by older people. Where would you come down in this controversy. Wish time issued a bit on that. Perhaps that's what some people say. Loss of control out here human life must be addition and process and you can't live together Lashley short of addition and we can try to straighten out of Mobutu I disagreement if you know where I disagree you're put in jail. That's an obvious fake but better respect we need dishnet I knew I had the discipline you take all the originality of the choir. And we can be we could be. Sure sure

sure discipline. And that's going to cost a developer there. And there I think you need to be working consciously on the motivations of people. By doing have I have I got to have I got the pattern of the picture. I was trying to she watched her work you for it and carry it on show we put everything we got into it. We have that that discipline and freedom can come together. Unless there is a desire for her action that's right. It takes it takes discipline to keep people out of the track. Answer To be sure. Quality. Even then you want to get out of the dictatorship a dictatorship could be worse than energy

perhaps. But the traveling together. You ended your purpose and aspiration and determination on the one hand and recognition of the right of the country to go together. Well I think we've used up our time and I think that's an appropriate note. You have been listening to an interview with Arthur Ernest Morgan. Dr. Morgan was interviewed last Saturday morning August 16th by Dick miser a professor of philosophy at Antioch College. For those interested in learning more about Dr. Morgan he has written a plethora of books. Most if not all of which are on the Kettering library of Antioch College in Yellow Springs Ohio is books are also available at the Antioch College bookstore.