The Winter Soldier Investigation (Part E)

And then that doesn't count the noncombatant men and boys young men. In brief that spirit now I have a few pictures at the end but I want to say a few words about Laos since very few Americans have ever had the opportunity to get into the liberated zone of Laos in Laos basically the United States is carrying on the same program it carried it. It carried out in North Vietnam that is systematic bombing. Everything I was in the chief city of the liberated zone I was so pictures of that that city not a soul lives in that city anymore. The destruction was greater. The town was not completely leveled but every single building had been hit. Every village in the surrounding area was

destroyed. I have not seen such destruction that comparable scale in North Vietnam. Actually there had been granted destruction because North Vietnam had been more populous is a more populous area but for the for a given region to just completely destroy a city. That was the aim of the US bombing to the ultimate strategy was to depopulate deliberated zone to take the people away from the revolutionaries. But it has not completely succeeded although according to the statistics of the Kennedys Refugee Committee approximately a third of the people of Laos have become refugees because mainly because of U.S. bombing. A few more brief remarks about what the U.S. is doing in

Laos another way they depopulate it by sending in CIA teams sabot sabotage teams that tried to force the people out at the point of a gun. They have little villages in Laos sometimes has only 50 people live in a single village is teams of mercenaries run by the CIA are brought into the town and tried to force all the men to leave to go into the end zone. To conclude. In Vietnam the bombing is beginning again. I don't believe Nixon. He's not just bombing military targets he's bombing the people in Laos. The bombing is continuing. According to the most recent press reports

the bombing has been heavier than at any time previous in the whole history of the war in Indochina in Laos and Cambodia together. That means. That it has been been done since October and the end of the rainy season. This is going on to this day and. It will go on until we give it an amazing Laotians and Cambodians to get us to stop Nixon. Right if you get the right recipe the slideshow opened up a question because we're running out of time. This is the city of San

Noir. From the distance it looks like a very beautiful pastoral landscape and it's impossible to see that. Every every building has been hit by a bomb I thought the screen was going to be about four times the size it is. So but that's it that's what it appears to be from a distance you can't tell. So now close ups you can see the windows have been blown out. There was a just one man I saw walking through the town except for the people in our party. Every single building the church everything that hit these us against that. Still stand. You can go on.

I could have gone down every street and then you would see that every building is gone. And here is how some of the people managed managed to survive. This is a mountainside. And inside this mountain is a K and people live in there. And what this particular cave caves are used only for a very very important. Institutions. This cave happens stuff I School of Art. This just added to show for the press his concern about American pilots. There's an American plane downed in Laos which was just ground that the pilot was ground into

cinders by the crash. So there was no possibility of getting is his name no layoffs and no possibility of identifying those again of the same weapons you've seen before so. This is a particularly vicious weapon. This is that's a ballpoint pen next to it. Just a little arrows cause flash shots which are used as anti-personnel weapons against the populace that were used against the populace and in North Vietnam. This is just one example of what it's like to live in a pacified or quasi I pacified area of South Vietnam and that is to say that until it's pacified this is what happens. This was live living in a liberated village. I

asked to see it now in the north for treatment one eyes is still completely closed. She's regain this partial sight in one eye sees the surgeons feel that they have regained partial sight in both eyes when they finish they have to have an operation. That was napalm. This is like a Roman Catholic Church in North Vietnam as I said I was never part of a war crimes tribunal and the Vietnam and Emmys made no effort to emphasize how many churches were destroyed I was examining a photograph of a recent visitor to North Vietnam and I saw that I think at least a dozen pictures of at least a dozen churches destroyed. That's the rail lines. Despite the efforts to destroy the roads

and you see that the destroyed rail cars still there. The traffic goes on. This is a hospital. But I should say it was a hospital there's nothing left of it. It is in the city of bean. Near Near where I stayed It's about halfway between Hanoi and the 17th parallel and it was near and near the small hotel that had just been built because it was seen as near a coachman's birthplace and they have a number of visitors and I looked around and I asked the interpreter. Where is the center of the city. And he says you were there and it was almost bare fields wherever I looked to be in the city of bin was about 99 percent destroyed by the US bombs. That's another view of the hospital just to show you that everything had been destroyed.

I'd like to please write how much time we have left now. We only have five minutes for questioning. So what if you come up state your name and the organization you're with if you're a newspaper people or representing someone else you want to ask any question worth the microphone that people are going to ask questions of you so that I can recognize people. Do we have such a microphone or are we just caught on right now. Be a lady Oh and by the lights. Well first of all I think to begin with the generals who did what crimes are just the generals

in the Pentagon but are the general dynamics which makes the intrusion detector or the changes frequently as a person approaches it makes the PBS portable combat service surveillance radar makes the grasshopper that I mention General Motors has been a manufacturer of the M-16 rifle which isn't a battlefield but again is another weapon which. Fact in that it has recently there's been reports about the fact that the M-16 has now of course they're working on an improved version of his individual weapon which is going to be 19 and even this is a tiny plastic that drops off and that little needle enters a purse and then spins around inside makes a huge hole inside even though just a needle penetrates on the outside and there are metal calibration.

But then General Electric makes these gunships you're talking about the AC 47 the various many guns and so far they work on some of the automated battlefield contractors or Westinghouse Electric Western Electric Texas Instruments Ferrier and Raytheon radio corp america radiation incorporated Magnavox Keyser industries IBM Hughes Aircraft Honeywell Corp. General Telephone and electronics. So the electric. Generally the Iyonix and so forth. One thing that people in any any community that any of you are in would like to know what production of weapons like other weapons for Vietnam and so forth. What's going on in your community. We have quite a bit of detail from the industries involved in production. All the contracts are awarded for any county in the country for each quarter of the year.

And also we have a book of weapons for counterinsurgency that just goes into some of the weapons we showed pictures at here and the chemical biological weapons and he talks about the contractors and how to organize a project against one of the corporations producing this except the explicit contract the general background same but if you want to actually organize a project and also if anybody here were going to write a new updated book on an on the automated battlefield and if you had experience in using intrusion detection things or you're seeing firsthand use of these and now weapons appreciate very much of the interview for this book will be coming out. We have time for just one more question. I'm sorry the statistics have not been made public to

foreigners as to the number of deaths in North Vietnam by US bombs all I can say is that the North Vietnamese insists that the MID overwhelming majority as I said in my original presentation of persons killed were were women children two thirds were women and noncombatant women and children. But they have not given any precise statistics except to the people of Vietnam itself. That is each locality has been informed. The number of deaths in their area but these have not been published because it would give the CIA information that it does not should not have. All right I have to conclude with that very good Marine Division testifying next. You

keep very down if I were fairly clear we can argue that. Greg thank you very very much. Right now I'm going to be big but you know what give me with. No.

And I just wanted to make is that there are two people minus their DD 214 but they do have military IDs and other military identification which the press can check later. The names are Alan Baker and Walter Hendricks and also

attached to this panel because these people can't stay for tomorrow or the next day. Our Jamie Henry with the 4th Infantry Division army and Nathan Hale an interrogator from the Americana division OK. I want you my name is Alan Akers I am 25 years old from the city of Chicago. I joined the Marines just after high school and was in. Company Secretary infantry unit I am present Karaites and work for the YMCA. I was in Vietnam for May of 65 until March of 66 but the bulk of my testimony will consist of mass movements of billets mass movements of villages after destroying their original homes the killing of civilians in search and recovery can order by fire the fast percentages of blacks in Vietnam told by the Pentagon

and how troops are geared to commit into committing war crimes. My name is Jonathan Birch I am 24 I live in Philadelphia. I joined a Marine Corps right after high school I was a corporal in B Company 3rd shore party battalion attached to 4th Marine Division landed in South Vietnam in 165 in May. I was a field radio operator and presently I am employed as any county in Philadelphia and I will be testifying about the forced relocation of villagers in area. My name is Steven Rose and I'm 26 years old and spent four wasted years in the Navy. That's from one thousand sixty three thousand nine hundred sixty seven. I was a Navy corpsman in Vietnam and I'm presently working now at a psychiatric

hospital on Long Island. I will testify to the blowing up of a civilian bus by the VC and the throwing out of wounded civilians by their our gun crew. Also talk about the preparation of ears from the Marines to be shipped back to the states. Thank you. Well my name is Shawn Newton. I'm 24 years old and a resident of Santa Monica California. I joined the United States Marine Corps 964 right after high school. I served in Vietnam from February 966 til december 966 as a private in 3rd Battalion 7th Marines. My second tour I was is a lance corporal with Delta Company 126 and with combined action group

3rd combined action group from August 67 to August sixty eight. I'm now continuing my education at Santa Monica City College. Like I said My name is Mike Springdale Arkansas. I was 30 before listed as my rank was private and I served with Bay Company 3rd Battalion 3rd Marine Division from September 1966 to October of 1967. I want my job was going to tank and I'm presently a student diversity of Arkansas. My name is Jack Smith. I'm 27 years old. I was a student at the university 1/2 years before I was then a Marine Corps in 1966 and I was also an unemployed carpenter at the time I listed. I was a radar counter motor radar team

chief and a Vietnamese interpreter. I started Vietnam in 1967 in all of 169. I was with headquarters battery 12 Marines and I am presently. An unemployed carpenter and an on strike student. My testimony concerns genocide against the Vietnamese people murder civilians all women and children harassment and maltreatment of children and also the murder of children. The maltreatment of Arvin soldiers racism against blacks both institutional and by official policy and individual the crossing of borders with artillery fire and the maltreatment of these excuse me I couldn't give what you were going to speak about. Could you tell us OK if you do that you first.

I just a moaning. My testimony will consist of the burning of villages the killing of civilians mutilation of bodies the taking of scabs and heads the destructions and the destruction of crops and livestock. Use of the four units. Do you vacuum ration of civilians from their villages to relocation centers. The killing of bin Laden with the troops in the racist policies of the Armed Forces in Vietnam. My testimony will include witnessing of killing civilians destruction of villages and training of the president of war. My name is Gordon Stuart I'm 20 and I live here in Royal Oak Detroit area. I joined the Marines in January 68 until November 70 I was a sergeant sort of Vietnam of the second of time. Raines as a private observer

attached to hotel company in September 68 through August 16. My testimony concerns our operations in a canyon which is an invasion of Laos. Contrary to published documents I'm also going to talk about the genocide committed against the Vietnamese people. Killing is the variance. By calling our children well-priced and villages and hamlets My name is Christopher Suarez aged 20. Rest in New York City New York. I'm currently unemployed student because of disability. I was in high school in New York City New York and had a part time job before joining the Marine Corps. My rank was Lance-Corporal 83 was a rifleman and for trade grants my AF and Vietnam was Gulf Company 2nd Battalion Nightmist regiment their marine version of my testimony to consist of the invasion of Laos correlated well correlated with the store operation to accounting.

February 6 now to March 6 in a mortar attack an approximate 30 WANT TO yards nightly age in our fire using high explosive and why phosphorous rounds. Throwing cans of food to civilians while passing by on truck convoy caliber machine gun use an anti-personnel weapons to kill it seems just to be contaminated. I witnessed people don't get beaten and Target and I want to form civilians. My platoon sergeant had a $1000 bounty on his head. Kramer's Roy age 22. I'm a resident upstate New York right now because of disability. I had a Marine Corps shortly after working six months as a lathe operator. I was. Trained as an anti tank person now and when I reached

Vietnam AI's made a regular right from and I'm going to be testifying about entering Laos so I can search out from moving chap said villagers warning of civilian personnel for suspicion of being with NBA firing nightly. Mutilating of bias of NBA. And a killing who was shot to death. The soreness and soreness of testimony I also recall my fired up the charter boats rivers. My name is Bill Hatton and 23 years of age and I was a high school student before I entered the Marine Corps in 1066. I spent four years in a regular Lisbon. I attained the rank of corporal as a lance corporal and Corporal both during my tour I was in Vietnam from

October in 1968 to September 1069. My outfit was engineer maintenance platoon and forest you Brownwood on how my testimony will deal with the stoning death of a 3 year old Vietnamese child. Are handing kids he tab sandwiches mad firing minutes at stud throwing cases of sea rats at women and children off moving trucks and fragging in price sitting on the heads of officers in the unit. My occupation of president and the director of the Department of Planning promotion for the village of Bagley Minnesota. My name is Bob Crocker 22 years old and after high school and other Marine Corps I started a battalion a radio operator interpreter with God company tonight from May to August 1969. From December 1969 to late February 70 I started as one for a chief calling in air strikes in Vietnam. I'm currently unemployed a resident of Philadelphia my

testimony was concerned killing of wounded prisoners. Prisoner refused medical attention as a result died with about 30 Marines watching including a colonel brutality towards the enemy's children and women. Name's Jamie twenty three years old was drafted in August 8th Air March 8 1967 ETF March 7 think it's 69 in Vietnam. August 30 first 967 returned States August 1968. I'll be testifying on the murder of innocent civilians which ultimately come one aided in the execution of one thousand women children in the causes behind these murders. My name is Nathan here. I'm 24 years old and a resident of Coatesville Pennsylvania. I'm currently a student and a candle maker I joined the Army in April so

66. My rank at discharge was Specialist 5. I was an interrogator linguist with America out of vision. Our show a series of slides. Of an interrogation by the Vietnamese national field police and describe General techniques used in interrogation. OK now Iraq. You mentioned. The killing of civilians as one of the things you'll be testifying to. Could you elaborate on that please. Yes we were given orders whenever we moved into a village to reconnoitre by fire this means too whenever we step into a village we were to fire upon our houses to our discretion that looks like there may be someone hiding behind or under. But what we did was we carry our rifles about

to the village and start walking firing from the here. Now there were times when the Vietnamese villages have men made up bombs out is to protect themselves from air raids. Well sometimes when we come to a village there was a bit of the media going out of the bomb shelter you know per car. So consequently this surprise would startle any individual and they were out of power. But I've given him a change. Also explain the first casualty reports by the Pentagon. Definitely. I was with the 2nd Battalion 4th Marines in the same unit I was there in Hawaii shipped out an expression of 700 approximately six or

six hundred of them were black and the same with the other two battalions of the 4th Marines now 600 out of eleven hundred. Mostly black soldiers on the front line. They have people in the rear asshole that were black but the ones who were not of the grants. Consequently because of a balance of black soldiers in their units whenever a unit was sent out the soldiers black soldiers were used as point guard to Echo Company to third or to be kind of a person most prized by the company worth Colonel precious what he called a magnificent bastard.

And the major power company can say well it was about 50 percent of black voters that came down from him. Yes he was kind of the if you remember I believe the book by just sort of where he was elaborately mentioned in the book had been one of the few laughs you know. I just heard you mention the relocation oppression and robbery don't I please. Now this was in July and I was in the period from May to August of 965. I went at the same time as House unit when I was attached to the Fourth Marine Regiment of what was which the second battalion was a part of it can support his testimony with the

percentage of the blacks within the units on the beach where we landed was a fishing village up in the northern edge of dank white bag. It was perhaps five to ten heights. These people had been fishermen all their lives. They had both say they knew nothing but fishing. But since the Americans the military wanted to use that area they moved them up a river for about a mile and a half at the coast. They were still fishermen could still go out but they were suspected of being VC. They weren't VC they were just fishermen and you have to go out every day if you can earn your living by fishing. So they decided I will move them up the river for other stuff where we can keep a closer eye on it. They did that and then just about August they moved them into a relocation village which is off the river and they took the boats away and burned them and gave them land and said Alright now you can become farmers. People need food and. We don't trust you fishermen. We personally took some of their little round boats they

look like a little Santander these little round things. They were both about which you know the same things we do. So these people had been fishermen for generations. Now suddenly became farmers and land they could not be fined zero and in and around to lie on the beach was was sand very very dry rotten sand so that's what I have. OK Steve wrote it was about the blowing up of the prospect of a see how many people were on air what was their status how many were killed and wounded. You know this is on Highway 1 outside of Camp EVANS It was an eye core area I would say was about 50 civilians on the spot so they pack in

pretty good on these bastards with all their belongings and this bus was heading up Highway 1 north and the way they did it came back to us before we went out was that. Mr. Speaker the convoy didn't come through today so I was at headquarters and the doctor and I went out to the people all of them and most of them were dead. But there were some that were still alive and we did you know preparatory work on helicopters came in with American American and we asked the civilians around the area to help us load the wounded onto the helicopters and which they refused to do. Now understand why it's not really their war. It's not

we're too involved there. And so what happened. This is the second time for these bodies on two choppers as a child just choppers took off into the distance. The wounded that we put on were being thrown off into the field. I was a chopper one of these people was running. It was about 100 yards out maybe about 50 or 60 feet just taken off and the taking of yours you know which explains. The cut off the left and I had some friends I was back down and some friends came out of the field and there's a crime and they can get a

bottle of something and put it in and so I could ship it back to the states to do what sort of emotions the guys have of cutting out the gears and send him back to the states. Happy about it. I think the time I spent in Vietnam a time when you just function and do things that hopefully you do when you come back home. I think it's sort of emotional if you do it you know you did it so you can do it and just send it back you know make a big deal of that. OK sure. You see I spent two tours

and if you would know. That's right. QUESTION I'd like to ask you this. What were the differences if any kind of policies. Of units that you were in Vietnam from the first or to the second or the first time I was in get no I was with the 1st Marine Division 3rd Battalion 7th Marines and the second tour was with the 3rd Division First Battalion 26 Marines and 3rd combined action group which were this. That's what that job was in an advisory capacity with South Vietnamese militia living in villages. The overall policy of the Marine Corps in 65 and 66 to me seemed to be sort of a scorched earth policy. There was a lot of burning and a lot of killing and no one was

saying much about it. When I returned in 67 our staff and CEOs in offices would tell us you know you just have to be careful if they're newsmen if their news men who go out in the operation would you just be cool you know. But if there's no one there that can do the same thing you did in 65 and 66 so you just have to be a little careful. And that was just about the only change that I noticed besides an escalation of the war. Before you went to Vietnam did you expect any have any expectations for what was going to happen there or did you receive any kind of information what you going through training. Well when we went through. What do you call the four weeks you know the four weeks before you go staging. When I didn't have to go through staging the first time because they gave us three

days notice gave us no leave it on and put us on ships in Long Beach we couldn't even call my parents and tell them where we were going or why we were going or anything and they said we're just going out on the new various like 11 days later. You know we knew that we were going to be going out in the new virus. It was a question really tired. What kind of information that you received. Going oh yeah going through staging like they just tried to hype you up and prime you to go over there and and just waste him you know the communist threat was a brought up time and time again. I would like you had to go over there and do this thing so that they wouldn't come invading the United States make a beach landing something up in the air. Mike

testified to the killing of civilians. And the treatment of us would like to talk about that. Well in January of 1967 we were in operation Newcastle about 30 miles of the name and our function as a as a tank unit we had I'd taken Smith injured people on top of the hill while its more tanks and infantry was sweeping through the valley below and our job was more or less plaster their area before the infantry got there and then if there was any stragglers left in the stragglers after our people went through we were to plaster them again. Well we were told that we couldn't fire unless we saw our people with packs and rifles that was more or less the policy as written. But our. But we had already made a practice day and our unit was to base the body count. We think a little hat a triangle shaped head on the side of our tanks each confirmed kill we

had. So any chance we got to have more hats to the side of the tank. We fired in this particular occasion we fired on five people that we had no way of knowing who they were because they were not armed. And as far as prisoners of war go in the back of a tank there's a thing called a travel lock. So when the gun tubes to the rear it can be locked down we're going to be bounced around. They don't use these in Vietnam but they use them in the States but we use them for in Vietnam as we could put bases head earth bases suspects had that travel lock unlock it down but it could be dangerous because we did hit a bump it could break the person's neck. Mikey said that this could be done was done and did he witness it. Yes I did. Could you tell us approximately when this was and where this would have been in the same general area around Manning.

I believe the dialog Prov. it would have been in late 19 it would have been in late 1966 around the same day. OK thank you. Jack Smith you were going to lie about the crossing of borders and the treatment of people would you go. Right we were assigned a kind of mortar unit we also had other electronic equipment along MacNamara's wall up there and we were involved in tracking enemy rocket fire and mortar fire and we would in turn direct artillery fire back on the division that we look at it. Now we are in a generally a free fire zone along the DMZ overlooking the river. It was a free fire zone anything that moved out there was fair game. The NBA used to come down across the river.

Farmar rockets and mortars at our base had done we would in turn fire back at them and locate them without any personnel radar that located them and also the counter mortar weapons that we locate their position and we follow them with our equipment and also with a hose back across the river as they would flee after firing back across the river so we would take artillery and since it was against the regulations to fire across the river what we do is call in a in a grid location that's a quick coordinates and the numbers of the location we called on the grid this side of the river and we would have clearance then to fire a thousand meters around that area. What we do would call in a spot right on the bank of the river and then as soon as we got clearance to fire on that spot because it was this was OK to do then we would immediately start walking across the river and fire across the river and up into North Vietnam and we would fire at any truck movements or personnel movement that we found along and we just keep firing until we had no longer any movement there. Excuse me. When you say you were cleared back to

where we had it clear it with the fire direction center backing down which coordinated all the movements of allied ground in artillery positions and all the units moving in those areas. So they gave us clearance to fire of their clearance. Today's people know that these are around the people who gave you clearance they know these rounds were being adjusted across the river. Yes but it was officially the policy was written that we would not fire across the river but it was standard operating procedure whenever we called in along the river bank that we were going to be firing across into North Vietnam. OK and I think you know this was our practice when we were out in the out advantaged signal of Signal Mountain out in the air and the rockpile out there in support of do we can and we're also firing across the river into Laos we call in the grid in South Vietnam just across the border from where we are firing and in turn to adjust the fire across Laos in support of the ground actions over there. That's part of the go

our radar location was located right next to the teleport at Charlie 2 which is overlooking the DMZ if I can be in the. They bring the trainers in from the field and some of them severely wounded and crying for water and things. They were always denied medical aid food and water until after they had testified to what we wanted to. Have them testify to. I myself didn't interrogate them we simply stood out there and watched them and then they would take several of the Vietnamese. They might have four or five prisoners. They throw four or five them along inside the chopper the chopper would take off fly over by the DMZ come back about 10 15 minutes later and unload to somehow along the lines of probably somebody had decided that they were going to take a walk there so when they lost a couple of prisoners but we never question this if you question that it was simply they were just gooks anyway so it didn't matter. Did you ever come into contact with the Vietnamese people besides. Yes almost every day the vehicle for my had three radar locations up along the DMZ there.

About 40 people there and we had to make a run in with our vehicle every week we had our every day into the supply base it done ha. So we sent our truck into Don high every day and we'd have to pass through the village of Camel O which was just a civilian village located on the way to the highway 9 which runs into Done every day as we passed through the village. The DGI is originally when they get in country they feel very friendly toward the Vietnamese they like to toss candy at the kids. But it's become hard to obtain the kind of inveterate against the war as you drive through the village you take the cans of sea rats and cases and you pick them at the cage you try to build them over the head and one of the fun of the fun games that always went was to drop the see wrapped cans of the candy often off the back of your truck. Just some of the kid will have time to dash out grab the candy and get run over by the next truck. Then if you or else if you're one of the other fun games where you take you take the candy and you toss it on the concertina wire because it's so much dying for the candy that

they'll they'll tear their flesh in their clothing and their their clothes off trying to get this candy which is thrown inside the barbed wire. Additionally when we had to go into Donna we also had used have to make a garbage run about every other day in the garbage the garbage dump was located just down the road in front of the village a cam low. In order to in order to unload our garbage without the least amount of harassment to the to the Americans. But we do we send down our barrels of garbage and we send down a team of five or six or a squad of five or six Marines along with it. One guy would be assigned to dump the garbage and the other six would beat the Vietnamese shoot them do anything they could to keep them off the truck while you were loading the garbage because they wanted to get into the cans and be the first one to scrounge through to get something to eat. So in order to save your vehicle and keep the equipment that you had on it you just throw the throw the Vietnamese off the side of the truck and dump the garbage cans on top of them and just just chuck them overboard or if they got too frisky just blew a couple I'm away. Excuse me you mentioned that after you would be giving

candy that a kid just throwing it to them. But you said people got invaded and you started going after back to drugs and when they get run over. Do you know why you were invaded. Well I there were. Two of us two of our people have gotten gotten killed by stopping in the dump and. Rapping with the kids and somebody had given a grenade to one of the kids and he walked up to the pull the pin on it walked up to the guy in the truck and just handed the guy in the truck the grenade blew the kid in the guy in the truck up. So and one of our guys out there pass and candy come up and was gut shot through the through the forearm by a 45 pistol. He was shot by about a 9 year old kid so they tended to become a little invader to the kids and as the kids would drive through the kids would as you go through the bill the kids would be allowed chop chop chop chop they want to candy from the kitchen and so in general you tended to get alienated from the kids. Gordon Stewart and Chris Soares both of you have mentioned

an operation that I think is fairly familiar to most of the American public. Do we can and you know an operation crossing the border in a way out. Gordon could you start by explaining that. It's the name of the operation was do we can you know I was a fort observer with Secretary Raines who participated in the operation. My job primarily was calling in artillery fire and mortars in their strikes. I would forward our control working with them. We said counter-rotating published documents and the operation did take place and I was I have a map here present anybody who wants to look at its official documented me up and present us and I saw where the route was taken helper we penetrated into Laos is approximately four miles. The operation started in January of 69 in ran through it ran through March

69. Approximately February 25th hotel companies 2 9 pulled an ambush into Laos on a near North Vietnamese convoy destroying a tank bulldozer trucks and a lot of personnel. Where we get the permission to do this I don't know. I heard over the radio undoubtedly came from higher sources as everything did. The next night an approximately 12 o'clock hotel company moved into Laos again and the whole company and set up a base camp on a hill and the next pretty much of a lot of contact unless a lot of men but of course you know we never lost anybody which is hardly true at all. Many men were lost. The men became quite in better doing this and better during this operation. It came easy to kill Vietnamese just animalistic. I was what I was never

trained and I just got in Laos in February and I mean in Vietnam in February. Soon after I was choppered out to I was going to show him our part of the reactionary with the battalion commander Major Collins and. We set up there for a couple days. We had one of our squads ambushed and I saw strikes in Laos. I saw airstrikes and wails and I saw a lot of men killed and we had moved down from this hill down a valley and across it across the stream and up on a hill a couple days later. We have come upon a hill which was strewn with rise. Now this was tons and tons of rice. I believe it was hotel company that have found this rise and had destroyed it. Instead of having

air vacs now the people in South Vietnam are pretty are pretty damn hungry for this rise but instead of that we destroyed it. Another thing is that. I'd like to bring up about talkies talk. Chris is talking about hills in Vietnam and the SEALs he's talking about. I can confirm with the grid coordinates because I called in artillery and airstrikes and mortar fire and he wanted the North Vietnamese. To my knowledge we didn't kill any civilians and I said came before and later but during the Laotian operation Dewey Canyon we moved down Route 9 22 in Laos. We could have gotten helicopters into it to evacuate our dead and wounded but the battalion commander didn't you know he wanted to be going home carry the dead and litters carry the dead for three days on litters. They don't smell very good. We discovered a lot of the operation was a military success and look at it in a military point of

view. We captured a lot of this is all documented someplace. Catch a lot of rounds or Tillery. What can I say. We were in a knot of Marines which is approximately not me is rushing home and I think these residents took place in Wales and we can and does across me 2000 men. And to my knowledge I may be wrong but I know that quite a few of these men were in Laos. All this time I would say for approximately a week a day or so less more or less. And the order was when I left. Do we can and when I left violet which were the operation took place on a helicopter I was given the orders by a second lieutenant that if we met any more correspondents in our rear which is Quantz Ray Vandergrift combat base we

were not to speak to them. At all about operation to a cat and if approached by any war correspondents we were just saying nothing. Perhaps just say that we weren't in operation to a cannon in our name sir know what they requested so if they persisted to go up the chain of command. In other words a war correspondent had any kind of idea that this operation took in Laos. He could not find anything and you wind up knocking on the White House door and of course you wouldn't be let in. So in no way the American people never knew about operation. I mean perhaps knew about Operation a cat in a certain did I know about that it's a place in Wales. Another thing too is body come in second verify one thing we lost. I'll be very conservative. I leased 50 percent of these 2000 men in this operation. Wounded and killed my company itself which is approximately one hundred fifteen man the whole company. We had

about 40 replacements waiting to rear and I was one of the replacements during the operation itself. So that goes for body counts and another thing was the complete devastation and defoliation we just saw the foliation and that area. I do not know if there was perhaps of shrapnel from high explosives delivered by airstrikes or artillery strikes but I know that quite a few hundred miles there were just dumps or something that looked like stumps sticking out of the ground. And let me just say that that land is theres nothing left. When we were in Laos we were very humane about it. We left the bodies piled all along the road in Laos in 1922. That's true on one point one we were moving out on the trail and I walked over a body a dead body that envy a body

and of course nobody would move any bodies or even any kind of objects that looked like it was either MVA or belong to us or whatever because of fear of being booby trapped. So we just left the bodies there. We booby trap the bodies we police your needs without the pins and the need to Buddy's case anybody had a policy to north in means of dragging their bodies away with cooks you know to destroy more people who are moving through Los. When we took a lot of casualties. He was also the policy they told us not to tell anyone for fear of repercussion. It would be very bad for us to die don't care anymore. You know this is going to happen. You mentioned the body count of the U.S. casualties were these figures. I mean. You said they were conservative. But when the Pentagon gives out the statistics they have their numbers but do you agree with

the numbers they give out. Definitely not in a Marine Corps. Put out numbers say it's called Northern Marine. It says that we killed one comma one whine whine and V.A. soldiers now that's a pretty interesting number. Now the only body I thought was the one I walked over and I saw a hell lot of bodies of ours being taken away one place or another. OK Echo Company is another company Second Battalion one reads. I can confirm that they were also in Laos. Moving through Laos a different direction than us B-52 raids were called into Laos and only so-called linear straight in artillery. White phosphorus is always called also calling on hamlets and villages. We didn't want to leave anything above the ground level. I don't know why.

Gordon something but a question I've got for you here is concerning wounded and dead Marines. How did you get them out of Laos if you did get out of Laos. We dragged in on litters. Were any left behind there was a squad was ambushed trying to start a North Vietnamese truck that we destroyed in the bush in Laos. The squad was completely worked out for two we had to leave or didn't wounded we couldn't get back to them. Eventually we did. We picked up what was left and dragged it through Laos because the colonel Colonel thought it was innate it looked like a typical John Wayne out there. When you. When you went back to get the marine bodies in a Marine wounded did you get all of them. I don't know. There's also one Marine received a medal of Honor posthumously presented to his parents. His name will probably be mentioned simply said reading

that he did receive this Medal of Honor later some months later I read it in Quantico paper. And I believe the press has a citation. I was killed in Laos on Route 9 22 right next to me. I said something else about body counts is that no aware of any papers that I read and I saw the tiger in Vietnam or any magazines as alleged in their acts which was put out by the Marine Corps or any such thing special and of course the media was any actual number of men killed or wounded our men killed that one in this in this operation.