The Wyoming Debates; Debate between Al Simpson and Kathy Helling in Wyoming

Good evening and welcome to the fifth and final broadcast of a series of political debates on Wyoming Public Television I'm Barbara Agos moderator for this evening's debate between us Senator Alan Simpson and Cathy Helling the candidates hope to represent Wyoming in the United States Senate for the next term. Senator Alan Simpson is the offices Republican incumbent and Cathy haling is the Democratic Party nominee for the office. I'll briefly touch on the rules for a debate that the candidates have agreed upon. Each candidate has two minutes for opening and closing statements which will not be rebutted. Speaking order has been decided by a coin toss. Questions will be put to the candidates by a panel of three news directors and writers from Wyoming communities. Each question has to be answered by both candidates. At the time of tonight's broadcast. Neither candidate has had advance notice of the questions to be asked by our panel. The first candidate to respond to a question will have an opportunity to rebut his or her opponent's response.

And the speaking order will reverse for each succeeding question. Let me introduce our media panel next to me is Angus armour managing editor of the Jackson Hole News. Seated next to Angus is Mimi Makana Glee news director for the Great Western network KGW CTV in Casper. This evening's panel also includes Tom Duncan news coordinator for KPRC radio in Riverton. We'll begin tonight's debate between Kathy haling and Alan Simpson with the candidates opening statements. Kathy Hayling will speak first as the result of our earlier coin toss. It's hailing. Thank you very much. And I would like to thank the panel and those who have been responsible for setting up this debate. And I would like to say that I'm very proud to be the Democratic nominee for United States Senate. It's quite an honor and and quite a responsibility that the people of Wyoming have. Placed in my hands

and I'm here to do the best job that I can do. I'm not a professional debater. In fact this is the second debate that I've ever been in in my life and. It's quite an experience. But I'm here to do the best job that I can do as I said. And. Hopefully we can discuss some of the issues that are of importance. To the nation and to Wyoming. I hope that we can talk about the. Lack of representation I feel for the working class people of the United States and the veterans and Social Security benefits and. Environment. And. Last but certainly not least the unborn children and so on that note I would say that I look forward to this debate. Thank you Miss Helen. SENATOR SIMPSON I have to thank the sponsors for this

opportunity to debate. I have never had the occasion to personally meet. Mrs. Haleem before and I'm sure that I always enjoy face to face discussion. That is my nature in all relationships. I think the key to success progress and growth is one's husband or wife for parent and child. Political candidates legislators world leaders. The issue is face to face communication. I've given 26 years of my life to Wyoming's public service my beloved native state. Surely the Wyoming legislature and now in the U.S. Senate I didn't go to Washington to seek power. I didn't go to find fame or get clout. I don't want to be president or vice president of the United States. I'm a legislator. I love legislating. Attractive to me is very dry work. I love it. I believe

I'm effective at that. Legislating is the art of compromise learning to compromise an issue without compromising oneself is the key. And you learn to. Do that when I played with the Wyoming cowboys that you can't win them all. What you've got to keep trying. I work very hard and I'm fair and I'm strong willed and I'm a fighter. And one of my credos of life is what my good grandfather taught me. He says I can't tell you how to succeed but I can sure tell you how to fail and that's try to please everybody. I've been campaigning very hard working for I find Republican candidates all over the state and that's why my voice sounds like it does. We've been on the road for five days and we're having a great time meeting people talking issues answering questions and I'm really looking forward to this. So fire away and we'll get right at it. Thank you Senator Simpson. As a result of the coin toss held earlier Kathy how long will take the first question which comes from Tom Duncan news coordinator for

KPRC Riverton radio. Tom thank you Barbara. Cathy and Senator Simpson as well. This question directed to both of you and Senator Simpson mentioned in his opening remarks that he went to the nation's capital because he enjoys being a legislator. But I'd like to ask both of you why did you decide to run this time. Well the reason that I decided to run was because I was unhappy with the way things were going. I feel that our nation is in very bad shape right now in terms of the budget and the situation in the Persian Gulf and I decided you know as an American citizen if you're going to complain and. Say you don't like the way things are going then you better be willing to step forward and try to make a change. And so that's what I decided to do. Was to step forward and to try to have a

voice and to be heard. And I think that's important in the democratic process. You know I know that Senator Simpson is is a folk legend here in the state of Wyoming and now big name politicians were willing to take him on. I think Senator Simpson is probably a very nice person but on a political level we disagree on a number of areas. And that's the reason that I decided to run. And. It's been a good experience and a learning experience and I'm just you know there too to do my best and try to make the changes that I think are necessary. SENATOR SIMPSON your response. Yes I decided to run again this time because I think the problems that confront the country are absolutely daunting. And I think that people aren't paying attention as to what's going to happen in the year

2030 or 2040 to our young people. I think I that I have a terrible feeling about what's going to happen to children and grandchildren in that year because we are on a true course of access and it has been called a decade of excess. And I see the tough problems I think call for tough choices and they will not be popular politically. I've learned that long ago. Have to go do the tough votes. You know you have to. You have to walk the walk and not talk the talk. That's very important to. Me mean I love people I'm very accessible I wander all around the state look like a big crane wandered through the marshes. And I see people and I talk with them they come up to me and they say you big barn owl Why did you do this or why have you done this. I'm very accessible. I hold 20 or 30 town meetings a year and I go in. I speak for five minutes and I just let them

rip. And they rip because Wyoming people are tough strong and ornery and loving too accessible for my mail. I hope I can say that when I finished my work in the United States Senate that I made a difference not just not just nationally that's secondary but made a difference for the history of the state of Wyoming. And I've helped to put some laws on the books which are going to be extraordinarily helpful to the state. One is the Clean Air Act. And if we're talking about the working men and women that Bill is going to put more people to work in Wyoming than any legislation that's ever been passed in US Congress is going to do things for or low sulfur coal to do things for natural gas and to do things for our extractive industries and do it in a way which is not in any way destructive to our environment. I think that's doing the job. Rebuttal. All right.

Yes I would like to say that I'm I'm pleased that the Clean Air Act has been passed. I think that's a step in the right direction. However it's taken now approximately 12 to 13 years to get that act passed and there's been a lot of damage between that time and now we have a lot of dead fish out there and a lot of poisoned strains because it has taken so long to get the Clean Air Act passed. I question how how an act that has been around so long in the chamber is all of a sudden has passed a couple of weeks before the election. I think that's interesting. And I don't think we can stop at the Clean Air Act. We've got many more problems ahead of us. It was a good piece of legislation and I'm glad that it's that it's passed. Thank you. The next question will come from meaning mechanically who's director for case GWC TV in Casper. Directed to Senator Simpson.

Senator Simpson you do have something of an advantage over your opponent as much as you yourself have said for 26 years you've been heard you're very vocal on your views are very well known and you've certainly reemphasized where you come from on many issues. My concern is that Mrs. hulling has not been heard very much. And in fact most of our campaign so far unfortunately has been perceived by the media as a reactive campaign that she's reacted to what you've said and to some extent she has criticised your stance but very little has been known about where she comes from. So the question is really for me a question to Mrs. howling but I'd like to reiterate your stand on the issue. I know I'm touching on something which might be something of a sacred call here in the state but in the last week from my own personal experience we've had some senseless homicides in Kaspar in the last week two days we had three deaths all by gunshot wounds but then a family I know that there an increasing concern about the violence in our country and even in our state there is a lot of

death and unnecessary violence through the use of handguns. And I know that you've gone on record on your stand on gun control do you still maintain this kind of how do you feel about. The question of guns in our state. When you when you represent a state like Wyoming gun control is how steady hold your rifle. I ran for this job. I prepared myself beautifully I thought and then went out around the state. And I'd get into the back of a meat market or some shop and they'd say I'd go through this marvelous ritual of all these things I knew and how clever I was and they'd say How are you on gun control. So that's all I want to know. That's the state the right to keep and bear arms is a religion. And I'm not about to become an atheist. I would go back. It is regrettable to me that Mrs. Helli has not been

heard because I think she is prepared releases and presented them to the media and the media has done nothing with them. I think that's a shame. I think we ought to feel guilty about it. A campaign has issues and she has presented issues and they don't get printed. I know my own situation is they do print them because I'm an incumbent I understand that. But I've been waiting for that. And I think it's the media of Wyoming could have gone forward and asked her to develop her position but they chose not to. And I think that's a failure on the part of the media. I've been working on a crime bill. I was on the conference committee on the crime bill. I very much believe in the death penalty. And we lost that in the last negotiations on the crime bill because the House of Representatives was not represented by people who spoke for its membership. We lost habeas corpus reform so that a person can go three four five 10 years and never get any further into the system. I do not favor

any form of gun control. I think when you get into the issue of assault rifles you transgress on a person's right to own semiautomatic rifles and I'm not for the tank response Michelle in my position on gun control is that I believe that it should be left up to the states to determine whether or not there should be gun control. And I take the position that in Wyoming we don't need gun control as Senator Simpson stated in Wyoming. People want to know your position on gun control. I've had several phone calls that. People wanting to know my position on gun control they didn't care about anything else just gun control and I don't think that it has been a problem in Wyoming. It's unfortunate that we have had the homicides in Casper in the last few weeks but I don't think that's the normal for Wyoming. It's not something that we see that often going on in Wyoming.

So I think that on it on a state level state should be able to decide what level of gun control is needed. So I'm not in favor of gun control at any time. I say in cities like Los Angeles a waiting period of possibly three days before a person can buy certain types of guns would be certainly a reasonable timeframe to it to have a cooling off period or something of that nature. So my overall opinion on gun control is that it's not a necessary thing nor do I think it would be that effective. Thank you rebuttal Senator Simpson. I think in this arena talk about guns and crime and death homicide in Washington D.C. Last weekend there were nine homicides. That's more than in El Salvador in a month. It's

an extraordinary thing that is happening in the nation's capital. And I think the way you resolve it having practiced law in Cody Wyoming for 18 years and representing some people who were animals and some who were dear and lovely people. But you got to get tough on the criminal and not on the gun owner. And I think once we make that so very clear that that's what we should be about toughening laws on those who use a gun in the commission of a crime or not on the gun owners and I think that's bungs proposal is way off the wall. And I voted twice to avoid the gun control restrictions. It failed. And then we later tried to pass a bill which had the death penalty and habeas corpus reform and that got failed in the last hour. Our next question comes from Angus farmer managing editor of the Jackson Hole News and is directed to Miss hailing misselling the United

States and the world is facing a grave situation in the Middle East. What do you believe the Senate's role is in declaring war. Should war be declared against Iraq. Would you vote for a declaration of war. What could you do to keep the peace. Well I'm absolutely not in favor of war. I don't think war has solved any problems in the past and I think it's a tragedy to think of sending our young men and women into war again and to think that we are going into war over a barrel of oil is even more sickening. I think we have to look at the process of what put us in the situation why we're where in the Persian Gulf. Back in April Senator Simpson was quoted in a very reputable news paper as going over

and talking to Saddam Hussein and defending Saddam Hussein against against the Western press. I think those kinds of statements and treatment of murderous killers like Saddam Hussein encourage him. I think that time is something they shouldn't shouldn't have gone on. I think we all make mistakes and we all say things that we shouldn't say and and that we maybe regret later. But I have yet to hear Senator Simpson apologize for those comments. And I think those comments led Saddam Hussein into believing that he had support that people you know didn't view him as a as a murderous killer. And so I think that's a you know a sad situation when we buddy up to somebody like Saddam Hussein. Your response Senator Simpson. I wish I could use some of her time for this one. That's about the nuttiest thing I've ever heard.

Let me tell you what I said about Saddam Hussein. We took a letter to Saddam Hussein from the president said you're a martyr. You've got chemical weapons. We know what you're doing and we present this letter to you from the United States. He immediately turned to the five of us Doel Metzenbaum Murkowski and Maclure. He said he said I am being it's a conspiracy by the United States and England what they're doing to me. I said Bosh. I said your problem isn't with England and America. Your problem was with the media why don't you let them in here. If you're if you're that big guy you have nothing to fear then let the media in here let them go to that chemical plant or you say you make pesticides and open your country to the Western press to try to pretend that I'm sitting down with Mad Dog Hussein crying in my beer about the Western media is just a total distortion and I won't sell it. She she won't sell it. I won't buy it. The United Nations is working for the first time in the history of the world. Let it work.

They are doing things. Can you imagine that we're getting votes from the Soviet Union and the People's Republic of China. We've had nine resolutions against Iraq. They in the Marauder's or the earth. Let me tell you this is not about oil. This is about what the world should have done in 1937 when a man named Adolf Hitler suddenly said that all he was doing was reuniting his various homelands just gathering up some of his territory. That's just what Saddam Hussein said. And if the world had done something in 1937 we wouldn't have lost millions and millions of lives. That's where we are with this guy. He's a mad man. He's got an air force bigger than France and England combined. Our job is to dry him up with the embargo put the screws to him get him out of Kuwait and then figure a way to disarm the Middle East like we've disarmed the Soviet Union and the United States. Now our greatest ally. That's what we wanted. It's telling you have one minute for

rebuttal. I agree that we have to to dry him up as Senator Simpson said. We have to keep those sanctions as tight as we can and we have to do what we can to get our men and women out of there. But at the same time I don't think making comments like the one that Jack Anderson reported Senator Simpson as saying helped the matter at all. And as far as as the Chinese you know we have given China most favored trading nation status. You know we're talking about ruthless murderers over there to the massacre in tenements where Senator Simpson is still in favor of getting a nation like that most favored trading status. Thank you. Our next question comes from Tom Duncan who is coordinator for KTAR radio on Riverton and is directed to Senator Simpson.

Tom Senator Simpson and Mrs. hulling Let's talk about the wind river Indian Reservation water situation. Two questions. First of all what would each of you like to see done and secondly what is likely to happen as far as the situation is concerned. Yes sir. Since I get two minutes I guess I can use those in any way I wish. The reason Jack Anderson is on the funny paper is always in every major paper is because of what he does. Jack Anderson has been repudiated more than I could ever do and Jack Anderson also brought down a U.S. Senate race in Wyoming years ago and he ripped the whole Frank Beara and helped elect his opponent. And as far as the most favored nation status of China if we do that with a hundred and fifty seven countries and China has voted with us on every single issue before the UN when River Indian Reservation are we going to address the question time after time. That's not so much. You know that's my business if it doesn't answer the call

OK place. So the wind river issue I said and I said it as clearly as I could. Nothing's going to be resolved on this issue before the election. You have the governor running for re-election the congressman running for re-election against the former water negotiator. Can you imagine anything sensible coming out of. Me running for reelection. You got Bert Hutchison running for re-election and John. So I have said as clearly as I can. This delegation was asked to stay totally out of this. We were asked to do nothing except the sure that the federal agencies personnel that were involved here were not advocates for the position. And we're just here to assist. We did that. I tell you what I've said we're going to do. Win lose or draw. Well then I'm a private citizen or a U.S. senator going to have a meeting in December a real town meeting in Fremont County. We're going to have all the people they're going to have all the parties there. We're not going to have mouthpieces. We're going to have human beings that make the decisions. Of course we will. Will also be favored with consultants and lawyers what we spend on

lawyers from the state of Wyoming and US taxpayers are paid to the tribal attorneys is beyond comprehension and they love to do it. I say get them all in a room in December and large start hacking through this stuff. Like I said before nothing would ever happen that would be sensible before November 6. Thank you. That's telling two minutes for your response. Go ahead. Yes. First of all what would you like to see happen. What do you think is likely to happen. What I would like to see happen in the Wind River situation is I would like to see the federal government and the federal representatives step in and try to mediate a solution to the problem on the Wind River Reservation concerning its water. I think the federal government gave that water away twice and it's their responsibility now to step forward and seek a resolution to that. What I see as something that would be possible there is that

we store the water and take care of the problem before the farmers and ranchers are in a crisis situation. I think that it's sad to think that we're going to wait until someone has been devastated before we give them that kind of assistance that they need once their crops have been destroyed. As far as the delegations sitting out until after the election. I don't like that. I think it's a cop out. They're elected to do that job and to sit back and wait until after the election before they jump in there and tackle it it's something I don't think we should be going on. They should be going forward with their jobs and their jobs are to find a resolution to the problem with the Wind River water situation. SENATOR SIMPSON You have one minute. Thank you. I can't say it clearly enough I croaky voice but I'll

try again. Delegation the federal delegation was asked to stay out of this by the governor and the tribes. I hope you hear that it's the truth we could not get in and tell the issue is join until they decided what they wish to do. But do they want to they want upstream storage or do they want this what what was it they wanted them to tell they made a decision there was absolutely nothing the delegation could do. I know what I think we ought to do to get the distribution system straight out of the water on the reservation the wheres the ditches ditches and lining of the ditches and see that the water that's there is protected there's plenty of water there for everybody. And this delegation being responsive to the people who were burned up passed a bill. It's law. 250000 bucks to take care of any person on the reservation who was injured by drought because of this water issue. I call that being responsible to your constituents. Our next question comes from Mimi McConaughey news director from the Great Western network and is

directed to Miss Helen. Well this really is a question for both of you and perhaps an additional part for Senator Simpson who might be able to answer that part for me wanting now has to pay a share of the administrative costs for the federal mineral royalty program because it's understood now that because of the windfall that we're going to have in oil royalties with the price of oil going up you'll be able to afford this. The price of oil today I believe is somewhere around 35. But there is no guarantee that it will stay there. And it's possible down the road the price might drop. How do you feel the situation will then be taken care off if this happens WWL-TV still be tied into paying this share of the administrative costs and also for Senator Simpson was there a deal made on this that the grazing fees was you know dropped a 500 percent rise in the raising fees was dropped so we could accommodate this share of paying our administrative costs.

Well what I think about the situation is that the Colorado delegation has said that there was a deal made. Senator Simpson says he's not aware of any such deal but we're facing a situation where we're going to lose royalties. We've never we've never been faced with that before so. Makes you wonder why all of a sudden now we're going to be hit with 11 to 12 thousand dollars loss in mineral royalties per year. And I believe Senator Simpson is saying it's not a real big deal right now because we're going to be making money because of the price of oil. But I think the problem has to be looked at like you said namely that what happens when the price of oil goes down. We're still going to be stuck paying for those and those royalties and it's really going to hurt us. And I think we can see that coming. And the

response has been well we'll worry about that when it comes. Well I think that's what has gotten our nation into the problems that we're now facing is because we take care of today and we don't think about tomorrow. And I think that's very sad. Tomorrow is going to come and we're going to pay the price. And the money's not going to be here and we're going to be really hurting. I believe. SENATOR SIMPSON your response. I share exactly what Mrs. Hollings is saying about it saying about the future. She has children. I have children. We don't make the tough choices. What we tried to do out here recently on this budget thing was Medicare was going to go up 11 percent and we only let it go up 10 percent. So any country in the world where a 10 percent increase is called a cut. That's what's happening in America. Back to the federal mineral royalty. No deal was made at all that was known to this Senator. I was working late in the night and on the clean air Crime

Bill Clark Fork wild and scenic river. No deal at all. But this delegation knocked out every single raising the grazing fee. And we should have. It's absurd. Seventeen million bucks is what that cost to us. Oh we pump about 4 billion into the corn guys and 5 billion into the wheat guys. We tell you what we did. Ted Stevens came into the room they were talking about paying some of the administration expenses. Malcolm can tell you I wasn't there he said I think they ought to pay some of the administration expenses. Everybody fainted. And so they said OK since you're going to be getting next year you were figuring 21 21 buck a barrel oil or even 15. Next year is going to be 35 or 40. Last year when we got 186 million bucks this kitty next year we may get 350 million bucks. And they're asking us to share the part of a 30 million dollar administration fee. Our share is 12 million. I think when you give up 12 million bucks to get a 100 or

150 million bucks that's not cheating your state. And since I have been in the U.S. Senate we want to talk a little about bringing home the bacon. This program has brought to the state of Wyoming in my 12 years one billion 170 million smacks. That's what the oil royalties are brought to Wyoming and that's what they'll continue to bring. And if we can't pay our share when the government has a debt limit of three trillion two hundred billion bucks then you know don't send anybody back. Having rebuttal. Well you know Senator Simpson keeps referring to this 10 percent cuts and how it was supposed to be 11 and a half percent and now it's 10 percent. And and he keeps saying how can we how can we call that a cut. Well the fact is we're still being cut 10 percent on Medicare. So it's down from 11 and a half percent. It's still a cut a 10 percent cut.

Thank you. Our next question is from Angus STURMER managing editor of the Jackson Hole News and first response will be from Senator Simpson. SENATOR SIMPSON You just obtained some 2.8 million dollars for the purchase of some private land in beautiful buffalo Valley which is the east entrance to Grand Teton National Park. There are some 3000 acres there right next to this private property which some people would hope would be preserved from development is Brigitta Teton National Forest land which the Forest Service would hope to lease for oil and gas development. If you think private homes are would spoil this beautiful entrance to the park wouldn't it. Development of an oil field there also be denigration of that place. The I think we did a good job trying to protect the buffalo Valley.

That was something that the constituents of Teton County want and I think generally throughout the state we got that there's lots more to be done trading lands perhaps in the Los Angeles area and so on and the owners and so on. I think that's called responding to constituents. There are surely areas in the forests. We have seven National Forest Wyoming and there are certain sensitive areas within those forest where no oil and gas drilling should ever take place. But there are certain areas within those four US where indeed it should take place and could without detriment to the environment. We're not talking about the parks. You get in this place. We're not talking about wilderness areas we're talking about the Forest Forest. The laws of the forest are called multiple use and they're managed by professional land managers and they do it to provide recreation timbering grazing oil and gas. And that's the law. And it was the law long for Al Simpson never wandered into the Washington. I

come from Park County Shoshone National Forest. The biggest one in the U.S. right there was the ranger station reclamation project. And three of the greatest oil fields in the United States Oregon basin the Elk Basin for bear. All of it very compatible Teton County is different. I can understand their fears. They really don't have any oil production. They're talking about what if they hit what they have the distribution systems. What do you do. Truck a pipe but how much do you rip up. Those are valid questions but I'd like to leave those questions and the answers to the professional land managers if this delegation ever starts to micromanage the seven National Forest in Wyoming. We won't be able to speak at all much more coke like I am right now. Is having your response. Could I have you repeat the question time. Yes the senator came back to Washington after this recent budget session with $2.8 billion to purchase private land in

Buffalo Valley. That could be developed. It's the east entrance of Grand Teton National Park and it's a very beautiful area right next door. The bridges the national forest proposes leasing for oil and gas development and I'm wondering if if the if the development of a private home right there is is going to mar the beauty. Wouldn't that development of an oil field also impact Grand Teton National Park and should that property be least by the Forest Service. Well I agree with you. It's going to have to hurt the land to have a home there hurt the natural beauty then certainly in an oil exploration would would destroy that. I think that we can work together in terms of multiple land use. I think environmentalists and developers can work together and come up with equitable solutions to these things. I too believe that the Forestry

Service and the BLM and those organizations should be left to professionals and that politicians should stay out of that area. However I'm speaking with the BLM person just last night he told me that the the way that it works is that the politicians are saying well we're going to stay out of this and you do what you say necessary. But what happens is if they don't do what the big ranchers or the big developers want them to do then all of a sudden their jobs are they're transferred to somewhere else in the United States. And so I don't think politicians are staying out of that situation. I just think they're staying behind the scenes. And so I would like to see that kind of situation handled. Like I said by the professionals in those areas who know what they're doing and and have the environmentalist and and developers work

together for toward multiple land use. Thank you Mr. Chairman. Senator Simpson you have a minute for rebuttal. When I went to wash there were some real difficulty with some of the BLM offices in Wyoming. I think a large part of that has been resolved. I think we have a good line administrator of the Bill M in Wyoming. Politicians are not in this. Ranchers and people are they're called tax payers and they have to be in it because when the professional people of the bill them come by and say you're not going to have any more ability to graze there you're going to put you know more salt licks no more fences. These people have a right to know why that is what's happening in Wyoming and it's good. Kind of hard though for people to take is that there's a lot of public hearings on these things and there you have they're scoping hearings and they do this type of material. The people have changed their attitude about the public lands

and they let the forest managers and the BE and managers know it. And I think that's called pure democracy. That's how those things are changing. They don't change because those of us who are politicians. Next question comes from Tom Duncan news coordinator for KPRC radio in Riverton and first response will be from Cathy Helling. It's a question for both of you. What do you see as some of the major issues likely to occur during the next six years in the U.S. Senate. Well I think one of the major issues that is going to be a very heated situation is going to be Social Security. I think you know we've talked about Social Security in our last debate. Senator Simpson is in favor of of means testing Social Security. I personally believe that we should not means test the entitlement programs such as Social Security and veterans benefits. I think if we

do means test what eventually is going to happen is that we're going to develop another welfare program. I don't think we need additional welfare programs. Right now what I think we need is programs that benefit the middle class. If you happen to be rich in this country then you don't have to worry if you happen to be poor. You don't have to worry that medical care is going to be there. Which makes me direct my attentions to that medical care. We need to have a national health policy. We need to make sure that our children and our senior citizens are able to have medical care. And so I think Social Security and senior citizens and medical care are going to be major issues in the next six years. SENATOR SIMPSON I want to get very clear on this

issue at least at least I want to give my position and let the. Audience determine it. I have never ever ever voted to cut a Social Security benefit. So let's you know put that one to rest. I have talked about means testing of Cola's and I specifically said that we ought to means test the cost of living allowance for someone who is 20 times above the poverty level and is already drawn from the Social Security 20 times what they put in. I have said that I take all the lumps you want to lay on my board on that one because there won't be anything for our kids if we don't start paying attention. That's the major issue. The reason I joined the Select Committee on Aging in the U.S. Senate to address the issues of health care and selling is exactly correct. We tried to pass a catastrophic health care bill but the cost was $4 and 16 cents a month. And it would have provided a panoply of services to choke a horse and it failed. I did not vote to repeal it. I thought it was a tragic mistake to repeal it. It would have been

very important. And then we're going to have to go deal with long term health care which is 10 times more expensive than catastrophic health care. This veteran's issue gets distorted. I am a veteran. I put myself on the line. I've never ever cut a veteran's cola. I tried to pass one this time and they tried to hang Agent Orange and 3000 other things on it. Too bad they died. I have to deal with it in January. I was shocked by that. I've said about veterans this you show me the combat veteran from the combat theater training accident and I say write the ticket for that man someone who served to 10 20 30 years and then I said when you're in a time of limited priorities 31 billion bucks goes to veterans and that's great with me. I voted for it all. But then you deal with the service connected disabled veterans. And then thirdly the non-service connected veterans and that's what I'm talking about when you have a budget shortage like we do. You talk about priorities. I do with housing. I would like

to talk about the veterans and non-combat and combat veterans. You know right now in the Persian Gulf I think we're looking at some 40 deaths already. And I think it's very unfair and very sad to think that the families of those people who have given their lives in a non-combat situation are going to be treated with less care than those that died in war. I think we have to honor the commitments that we've made to veterans. And I think if we don't honor those commitments there's going to come a day in this country when there aren't going to be people who are willing to stand up and fight for their country because why will they fight for a country that reneges on the promises that they've made to the veterans. And so I think it's very sad to try to separate out combat and non-combat veterans. Our next question comes from Mimi iconically. I do the same thing. It's kind of hard to keep this straight meaning maybe my McConaughey has next

question and it's directed to Senator Simpson first place me said to Simpson. You're being very largely in the limelight with the immigration bill that has recently come into effect again in a reformed bill. I know that a lot of questions have been raised on that new form of the bill because there's definitely some changes from what it started out originally. What was your role in this and how do you feel about the bill as it's finally turned out. Well I am going to mention the misspelling left out when we were talking about veterans the fact that said training accidents. This is certainly something I want to get a clear 27 1/2 million veterans only three and a half million I've ever been involved in any kind of combat theater activity. That's why I said. Immigration reform. We've got a good bill. I was pleased with it. We set a limit on national immigration.

Six hundred and seventy five thousand people a year. That's an increase of 35 percent. Anyone who can say that that's closing the golden doors is just using the issue. It also has a remarkable thing to it. It it begins to correct our problems with illegal immigration including construction along the border education of employers the deportation of people who have more due process than the American citizens did. We corrected that. We provide for criminal aliens and their deportation. I'm handling it through the court system. And here's what we really did. We we finally broke the pattern of distant relatives and we're now saying that 200000 people a year will come to this country with special skills special abilities and special contributions to our society. It was called by a Democrat chairman or Democrat Chuck Schumer of Brooklyn a classic immigrant. The Ellis

Island immigrant type. So finally we broke that we provided great numbers for the Irish. That's because Ted Kennedy was on that committee. With me. And so we took care of that. We opened the doors to countries adversely affected. It's an extraordinarily generous bill. And finally finally brings to our shores about three times or four times more people with special skills doctors Masons whatever people with special skills special abilities special workers and knowledge of English to is telling your response well I don't believe that term American borders should be open only to those who have special skills or special training or necessarily a command of the English language. I think this country was founded on people coming from all around the world to a place where they saw better hopes and dreams of a wonderful future. And I am saddened to think

that the only people that we allow into this country now have to have special skills or a command of the English language and. I think the immigration bill it's been reported by The Wall Street Journal too to be called an I.D. card. With that I.D. card comes a computer system where employers can call in and pump in names and numbers into a computer and what that means is that we're all eventually going to be on a computer in our private lives are going to be open to whomever in the government would like to check us out for whatever reason. I think that's scary. I don't want to say that. I don't think it's fair and I would really be opposed to that kind of thing you know. Senator Simpson back in a town meeting that I attended in January talked about computers and he talked about a man who had been questioning him concerning Social

Security and and Senator Simpson said Can I have your Social Security number and the man said No you may not. And Senator Simpson went behind his back and was able to get that social security number. And he took it back and he ran it through the computers in Washington and he came up with this man had paid $6000 and got 2500 back are two thousand five hundred back in our Scuse me 23:5. Back and Senator Simpson said that was great. He thought that was funny. I don't think that's funny. I think it's an invasion of privacy and I don't like this computer stuff. SENATOR SIMPSON are vital. Well you know really I didn't say the people that were going to come in on this bill were all going to be with special skills. I said this was the most generous country. I mean if I if have just told you and I did that six hundred and seventy five thousand people were going to come to the United States and each year

and 200000 of them were going to be people with special skills which we've been trying to do and get people from Hong Kong and other places around the world that leaves 400 and 75000 people. That's what my opponent has just described. I'm all for that. I'm the guy that did it. Four hundred seventy five thousand people a year will be the little guys no training no nothing family reunification no nothing. I think that's pretty generous. The Social Security kicked some guy got up. He's always raised it with me. Some guy came up and gave me his number said check and see what he's got. I found out he put in six grand taking 26000 I wrote him a note. I suppose that's part of the problem with Social Security who's going to help. Next question from Angas former managing editor of Jackson Hole News and we will begin with Miss Helling. Answering your question first. Angus misselling would you vote for any lazed legislation that would limit the woman's ability to get an abortion.

Yes I absolutely would. My position on abortion has been very clear from the very beginning. And you know I haven't faltered on that and I won't ever falter on that because I believe that abortion is the taking of a human life. And I believe that all human lives should be protected in this country. We are afforded life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. When you take away a person's life I think that says it all. And I would fight for any kind of limitations that I could to be placed on abortion. Senator Simpson and I differ on this. I have two kids Senator Simpson of riding the fence because I believe he does. You either think abortion is the taking of a human life or you don't. You either think it's right to take a human life or you don't. And I don't think it's right to take a human life. Response Senator Simpson.

Well you know my position on abortion is very clear too. And I have not faltered on it either. I deeply deeply believe in this anguishing personal decision. And boy I'd hate to be making it but I can tell you I deeply believe that the woman should have the choice to make that decision. I have never equivocated on that one. And I've also said that in my mind hopefully this should be done with the consent of the spouse. I would hope that would be done. I also said hopefully it would be done with a pastoral counselor that needs to be done. That's a terrible time of life and certainly with the doctor I formed that decision after Roe vs. Wade when I was a member of the Wyoming legislature and one of the most intense personal debates I've ever heard in my life. I practiced law for 18 years with real live human beings. And I'll tell you I saw some that needed that option in their lives and I'm not going to foreclosure. In fact I don't even know why a male legislator is involved in the

process. Telling you have a one minute for rebuttal. I believe the attitude that and that legislators should not be involved in the process of deciding about abortions is part of the problem. I believe that the laws on the books that were enforced that make men responsible for fathering a child make them responsible for the child care payments and then maybe we wouldn't be faced with over 4000 abortions being performed every day in this country. Men have been able to take the attitude that they have no responsibility. And that statement by Senator Simpson brings that home. I think we are nearing the end of our allotted time for tonight's broadcast and because of that. We'll move now to the candidates closing statements and because MS. How long had the last rebuttal she will make the first closing statement if you will please.

Well I would like to thank everyone here once again for allowing Senator Simpson and I to be here and to see the contrast in our viewpoints and to. Let the voters have the opportunity to see us and make an informed choice on November 6th. And I think that if the voters have decided that in their minds that they think things are going well in Washington and that we should continue on with business as usual then they're going to vote for Senator Simpson. But I think it's the voters have reached the conclusion that things aren't going well and that a sharp tongue doesn't always solve our problems that maybe they're going to go to the polls and they're going to vote for someone else this year. And I happen to be the Democratic nominee and I'm giving them that opportunity. I think the people of Wyoming are strong minded and strong willed and I've had many phone calls and and much support. Concerning the issue of being

unhappy with the way things are going and I think the Budget session this year has shown the people that it's a disaster in Washington. I think we need new blood in Washington. I think we need a new outlook a new person who will go in there and fight without our special interest groups anything. The only person I know the only people I know are the Wyoming people. And I would appreciate your support and your vote on November 6. Thank you. Senator Simpson your closing statement please enjoyed this time was Mrs. Helling. It's a great honor and privilege to represent the people of Wyoming and the United States Senate. I'm a totally accessible person. I love representing these people they're strong loving and tough. I do 20 to 30 town meetings here. I love a little tiny places. I'm home every other weekend in Wyoming. I meet Wyoming people in Washington every day. Lots of Democrat public and I don't care

who they are or where they come from. This is our home Wyoming our native state. It's where we've been schooled where we've been married and I've worked where we raised our children. This is where we this is where we even keep our house payments up. And that was the exception to three weeks when my mother went to Denver to have me. I was a big fly then and was the army I've lived right here in this state all my life. I work work awful hard for the state. I get 500 letters a day and I answer them all reviews and personally I do that. I enjoy people I care about them I care about care about young people old people. My dad's 93 mom's 90 and mother's 90. We look after them care for them love them. And the recent budget debate the saddest part was it left a confusion and doubt among senior citizens what was going on. Anguish. So unnecessary. There are no cuts in Social Security. There were none. I've never ever voted to do that. No one does. There's a 5.4 percent cost of living allowance coming January 1st and the cost 21 billion

bucks. Fine with me. OK. Pretty generous and caring government. You know me by now I'm not a sinister evil sharp tongued Armand's arrogant man. That's not he what the world. I do my homework. I'm a scrapper. I'm a Lessner and I care always. May sound repetitive. I made only two promises when I ran for this job. I said I work very hard and I have. And I said I hoped I'd make you proud. And I hope I've done that too. And I personally asked for your vote on November 6th. Thank you Senator Simpson. In closing I'd like to apologize in the rush to fill in as I have tonight. The schoolteacher in me corrected Nimi Makana Glees name and I apologize to you. I thought it was spelled am I am I and I am I. In closing I'd like to remind you to please get out and vote. We'd like to thank the candidates cafi Helen and Senator Alan Simpson

for being here this evening. This is the busiest time on the campaign trail with both candidates engaged in a number of personal appearances. We thank both candidates for making tonight's televised debate possible. Thanks also to our panelists Tom Duncan Nimi mechanically and Angus Dearmer. Who prepared tonight's questions. In case you tuned in late this evening the debate will be rebroadcast in its entirety Sunday at 5:00 for the Wyoming debates. I'm Barbara gross. Good evening