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Interview with your host Charles soup and. The subject. The subject is jazz its history its development where it's going where it's been and its perks do it. This trio. The nice thing about Kirk is that he's as you all know being musicians and is that Kurt's not only a brilliant player and arranger but he's also a teacher teaches in Howard University and so you help I think with the the problem is no one has been a bit unable ever to define jazz correctly. Right and I want to live what is it. If it's if it's in this gal because there's a feeling it's an emotion. It's like if it's emotion I thought it was Ellen. You can't put a finger on and say this is it and that they're ready to do it but it comes in all
colors blue red green. Come in all sizes and beans. You know historically it came where Africa from Africa. And what happened there what was what was the indigenous kind of sound in Africa that that moved to drums strings loops. When you know in the Pali rhythm I guess you know we hear about the you know the native drum kind of thing you know we did some of that it prior to you know we do some things at the club or I'm playing a different thing from what they're doing. I live in McLean and want to give an example that you're playing something different from what they're doing you. Think.
Parallel. What. Now. Now define if it possible that you just did what. Well we played the same thing within the same speed they were slowed down and went to a different thing than a bit anyway. Ok to start playing with one. Example of the fact that jazz has always been such an individual kind of thing that we all want to do their own thing. Sitting you know with a separate entity to make one. OK historically people move from Africa. They didn't want to they will move from Africa to the either South America North America wanting to do their own thing wanting
to express themselves but in a very foreign country in a very foreign circumstance picking up. Did they start picking up their rhythms the sounds of the new country whether they wanted to or not I originally know now OK what had to maintain what they had and they were the slave of yours over the running of a slave period. They began to. Hear other things to the masses and I was like yeah yeah babe I want to rule things in that and I have to. Really a right like you Irish folk songs I would think from a plantation lottery definitely I would think something like that and the spirituals or do you anticipate no they don't you know they hit over him and they intertwining over here and it's fair to now and then all of a sudden. Am I right that it took two branches before it got to what we understand as jazz if it took ragtime and blues that was to
separate. I got a feeling the blues was little before the way they called it at the time the blues with an emotion a sad emotion or happy emotion people sang the blues when they were happy. Blues comes in all colors to that. Yeah I've got plenty of money blues I don't have any money but now it's a tangle thing the blue was the third and seventh note in a 12 note scale from what I understand to be the the blues scale instead of 8 notes 16 notes it went into 12 notes and then the third and the seventh was flooded. While a minor on 12 hours OK out of his I think I'm going to do it and I'm the third in the seventh became a minor and they became they would said that well that's the blue nose. Yeah and the merge that way. That's one form and that's more vocal. But ragtime was was more better more innovative Yeah you know. Now what can you give me what is ragtime what happened there. You sort of had a you had a conglomeration of my
kids at the time that were very. Very. It didn't swing. It was very spirited but it didn't swing you know. So you wound up with the beginning of stride piano beginning AB A lot of you know. Now that would be a basic 2 for all 4 4 in the last four. Okay now what would you do in the right hand. Oh we could do anything you wished in the right. I'll take one of those common to. Is that syncopation in the writing. Yeah you know this Mr. Ferguson. So of course we now have a snow this protection plan. That's from Scott that doesn't know now. How easy was it for
someone to just pick up the piano. You know I mean pick that up. You're doing you're doing two different things you doing improvisation in the right and you're doing basic feet in the left. You did an awful lot of listening. Are you have to want to teach you that originally. As it evolved ears became better for hearing that kind of music out of the plaything of the slave music was planting Yes it was what you felt at the time. The evolution of the right time came from the fact that a certain musician was all that he was the rhythm section of dome of the bass through melody in the whole thing and so he had to he had to come up with it all. Later in the 40s. We had a. Conglomeration of same thing with musicians you know who were going developed their styles to Curt When did you know you were a musician. Do you find a time when you say gee I really know how to do this don't I.
Yeah I see two thousand nine hundred and ninety two thousand ninety five album. I'm serious I you know you don't you don't really get it all you know. When did you first start playing. I was five years old I was four years old I started playing by ear at all for less than a school. What is the genius of playing by ear. What what. Why do some people never try to figure out why people can do it and some others I don't know like a piano at home my mother played. And so I was always around music so it was easy for me to pick away that all the times I've gotten things a little tiny hands you know and I began to play a little hymn of the Sunday school. And that's my first gig to go to think about it without really knowing that that was a five seven cotton No no I don't concept of what I look at what they don't know. When did you decide to do it professionally. Twelve years ago. I was playing in Chicago you know and I the clubs sort of like Sammy said you know you
can't get to know you and they were putting up and saying well you didn't play that right if you sit in a session I think I said on the show you. And. They would able to take a big man doing and and you know they would call me and show me how to do things and then as I became more educated academically and I understood what I would do it now made a difference. Did it change your attitude towards it and could you over learn something you know could it become dull. Already done I would say if you let it if you let it. Things that play now are BB I'll give you a case in point out. I guess that's about as basic as you can get. You know and I'm not content with just the basic I have to have a million of course to go with that.
GUY TO HAVE MY have to have what's happening you know call and keep evolving this and keep building on that and expounding on it and pretty soon you'll find if you find something you know to the court with and I've gone as I have 32 so far I'm still working at trying to get even more. Templeton now you know what you get in the end. Well you and I have find it impossible to find anybody. Take a stab at defining J. Sorry I'm not a musician but I would like to point to someone who may I mean slow. Yeah I know it felt like volunteering to accept or. Not. Volunteer. How is it possible to do. I have never actually seen green jazz. I must say that your give it to me you know that's what I'm really looking at women giving a check was that I forgot how that works. Yeah yeah yeah. Jazz to me I think the basic the most
logical word I can think of is improvisation. Yeah and I think that beyond improvisation goes soul feeling knowledge of the instrument and that sort of thing but basically between jazz and classical music is playing the music or playing the improvisation. So I would think if that is soul. And if it's all improvisation when the great jazz people make recordings. How do they make them if they don't know what they're going to be doing next and you have to have something organized you have a you have an organized Galton a chord pattern of a certain song and it depends on the size of the ensemble are what's involved. Musician music musician wise it depends on what's involved or who's involved. If you have a meaning that you haven't worked out that generally you know what tempo you're going to be in but if you do and secondly that you know you're going to go down to the back to the tonic and yeah you know
we had this the quote pattern to what I just the thing I just played had a pattern to it. All that could be expounded upon improv in for improvisation only you know and of course that's it you know. I just wanted to say you are like my name's Ross Martino and Menards show at the Union Plaza. We do a lot of school concerts for children here and I'm a pianist like you. Yeah. And getting back to. The interpretation of the word jazz when I tell those little ones and demonstrate to little ones is two words two words or three words I try to try to explain. It's sort of improvisation is sort of well. Making up something as you go along. And it would be as if you take a doll of some kind and you
add a little more color to it a little more dress to it and dress that dress that doll up. Now there's improvisation and there's also another word syncopation that goes along with it with all our other words and example Kerk of syncopation that we touched on out in ragtime but I could you give an example so I understand what what he means by syncopation ok what time to pick. Me has a thing as that. Is that a paint that. What you're doing here what I didn't originally was. The second point that would be OK. My layman's ear hears hesitation on the beat that could be part of it.
What else could have been done even off the baby I mean accenting How do you know anything that I could write unaccented parts of music without getting too technical writer but I'm actually expressing what you mean by off the beat putting stress on the end that usually carry Russ's description. Further if you have a melody usually you know in a set of chords the chords you go the melody and you improvise on that. Then you don't have to stick with the melody. You don't have to play the same chords as he is he showed as he is totally. Freedom is totally you. We could all play the same song that he did and it completely different. All of us each one of us would be different. That's the freedom and you are a musician and tell us your name. Archie loco. I work at the Riviera the declarer and you play trombone is a lead trombone player with Canfor and Emery Yes we'll get to that. Improvisation Yeah some of the gun. Okay off beat not
just say it again so I understand. Well that's that's you have to be playing and syncopated beat would be off beat playing bump bump bump bump bump bump bump bump bump bump play syncopation Yeah unheard note in their unheard No. Yeah so there's a mystery of silence Yeah and Roger bandy also had you know in the marching bands I saw he had I not on the beat. Yeah right right. That's your horns and you know and so it's the silent note as well as you know it could be you know students it right you know the student your night match car. Do they ever get around to trying to define the mystery of jazz. I don't think technically they get down to talking about it but I think it's more of a. Feeling type thing and a static thing where it's just you know it's sort of understood you know and
I think everyone kind of knows where everyone else is coming from and you just try to approach it from that level it really does jazz appeal to you. Well I think basically it's it's just an expression it's of your own self you know and it's an extension of your own mind and what comes out of your own heart you know and there's very few rewards I think that can equal that. You know is this the motivation for you Kirk went into in the first. I got tired of playing you know I mean it tended to become a concert pianist you know and give myself one day and buy the great symphony orchestra with tails and looking the setting down and then the great thing and I got to the point where you have to play it the same way every time you've committed some sort of musical heritage you know and they you know they need to nail you to the cross for it so I said to heck with that. You know that's not the way Chopin did and I don't yeah I don't and there are people who go to concerts who remember every note every beat every every every
time signature every time change ever a dynamic level and then there's that. So I said well if you get out of that then I'll just go another route and try to marry the two. I try to marry the two and that's that. But into being what the classical feel right. But the improvisation thing in the way that I look at it was about the time I thought hearing Dave Brubeck and then I begin to. Say Aha. And I can it can be done you know. And it wound up it was the opposite of that happening a little bit in the gym and music is the feel of the conductor or the composer wanting to have the player have some sort of a jazz feel playing classical in his orchestra that way sometimes. We'll get back to this and move it up historically when we come back and I want to second world war what happened around the 30s the 40s and what influence that had on jazz we will live. We'll be right back.
The subject is jazz history where it's been where it's going. And this is parts to a country.
Now we know why people flock to the Desert Inn to see you from Kirk again. The need that was so instinctive as if I was listening. The need for the personal expression you making your statement you giving time then for the base to make its statement. The drum and then tying it all to the recapitulation. And that's pretty much what happens as you know historically the. Why did swing come and what is swing and why did it come about. I guess we're talking about the 30s. OK. Near as I can. Can put together with one thing came about as a result of the march thing of the of the rector moving a bit. It was listed above more so than danceable. It was a little bit more so more so than that is that you could dance to musicians saying hey listen to me instead of asking.
What it was a case of musicians at the time were going to teams were going to play movies. Background movies background for the movie before the foundation came in and. I began to put ensemble together was. The evolution of Lincolnwood came about because people want what is what is an example a swing as. What. You came in for five different styles of swing on. Which argument this is the the big band era today. Yeah well the case in point would be we can base it. On.
Then what happened with bookie come into all this. You had this solo musician who could play the saloon the saloon musician. You couldn't have a band. Probably the job didn't call for two or three or four to musicians or whatever you had saloon music. He had to be everything you had to be as a rhythm section. You had to be as long. As horns and you had to be. Really our space yeah yeah yeah. Then you had. Another style then you had the ABA AMA style.
What technically did you just do that is different from the other. I didn't. And this is. Not the same as any of you. I have several different styles of what people call jazz musicians traditional jazz Dixieland jazz jazz. They all seem to know what they're talking about. But it all sounds to sounds different like traditional jazz when I say traditional jazz to me. Brings to my mind W.C. Handy as far back as Jelly Roll
Morton which is traditional to me that you know the tradition of the jazz and then it evolved to two I mean the Dixieland came out of it it seems to me but it probably came out at the same time but it's different. And then on into the swing. But it also changed color the tradition traditional to me was black. Never see him and Jelly Roll Morton the soul the x need to express the sound and the feeling and then with the swing I say I think of Tommy Dorsey I think of Glenn Miller. And it it seemed to have changed color but not necessarily change soul ocurred. Going back into the 70s with hundred sixteen hundred eighteen hundred. You had. You had to do what we call the east of the plantation music. During And as time evolved into into into and on into the 20th century geographic locations.
You know people migrated. And of course what started here was heard there and somebody picked it up and added Well flavor to it here so you wind up with a New Orleans style of jazz and you have the Dixieland jazz and some people call it traditional jazz which is still played in New Orleans you know and get to Memphis jazz you have Chicago jazz you know and you haven't gotten westerly yet at that point because the West whether. You know what unsettled is what it was about. So is this difference in a month the reason why it's very difficult for someone like you to to you know sometimes to write about jazz because it has taken so many variations. That's right there are so many meanings to it and so many different types of jazz as this young lady pointed out. And. It just would go in cycles it would go from Dixieland in that wind to swing and dancing had something to do with it along the way. About one thousand twenty four is
when people realized that they would like to dance to the various types of music and that's where the foxtrot came in and I thought of the name Isom Jones was very instrumental in bringing that music where they could dance and then of course that led into the 30s when you had the middle 30s with the Miller band coming in the Tommy Dorsey the Benny Goodman's and so forth. So it would just lead right into swing. And of course the life of swing stayed to about 135 until well about 1950. What happened what was the reaction. What what got us out of swaying Was it the need for the musicians to say hey wait a minute I'm not being recognized. You're not listening. You're just dancing could be that swaying was maybe constricting. It became a question you know when you were locked in and you played these charts every night.
That said you played the same note the same way every night. So the freedom of expression. They're called A lot of fellas to venture out just for the sake of anyone who's watching who doesn't know the term charts. It's constantly used in a variety of ways. How are you using shots written arrangements Okay written written orchestral arrangements. And they were locked and so it that becomes monotonous. Yeah I had a career question. Kirk you have been a professor of music. You have been the musical director of Nancy Wilson Julie London Della Reese and now you have a trio and it's a great trio. Do you prefer now doing what you're doing versus these other things that you've done the past. I haven't done anything in this that I didn't enjoy. Even the teaching I had a ball. I've been in here would you like what you're doing right now like what I'm doing now tomorrow if I'm doing something I thought like it it's all not as if occur.
How does it differ. It doesn't. In terms of what you have to prepare for and is it is it nice and relaxed working with a trio rather than a big orchestra for Della Reese let's say no because I enjoy conducting that's that's relaxing to me because I get there when I write and I get to hear the things you know. In teaching. It's nice to watch the students grow. You know and and blossom. If you had a good hour that you could have him teach you anything you wanted what would what would you really want to center in on GC's had so much experience I mean that that's probably what I want to talk to you about most. Just the people that he's played with and why. Well because really that's that's what jazz is all about. I mean I think you know this is the easier experiences with with other musicians and well just your own life experience. You know. And that's what I'd like to talk to you about mostly.
Well you only have a few more minutes. I'd like to know if he's if he ever worked or met with Louis Armstrong. No I did not I have one person I guess might have been too young or whatever I did I would I know I was in school and I did see him play with and what influence did he really have in terms of for the musician we know in terms of the listener he moved us all brilliantly but but but from what did the musician learn from. OK. I wasn't born during that era when he was you know making all these impacts on people but based on recordings. Talking to people who knew him and. Knew him when he started and was doing he he let it hang out the reason and then he let it hang out and it was new it was. It was different. Rip the chains of constriction and the improviser became free
and it to end it. It was different at the time and people began to imitate it. And I guess I'm still to down south I know to do what. OK well. How did the break come from Swing Boogie into bebop. What is bebop as. Bebop was the probably the emergence of poly rhythms now poly meaning many rhythms going on at one time or back to the roots as it was in the business you know. Again as you were saying the corset style of the swing we gotta get you got I want everything I know ever there are people who want to explore and do new things you know you can create new forms and that they have I that have to be able to have it and that's about the time I came along. OK drama when Dizzy Gillespie and Charlie Parker start playing who they seem to have more notes
within the chord you know than had been existing before or played before. And while the notes were jarring to some ears they were within the chord as they found it and they used it in improvisation and form the style that was called bebop. Now remember hanging out with Jack Teagarden around that time and he had music charted you had it on a blackboard. And he said those notes aren't in the chord. And yeah but they found them and what they were doing was getting deeper into the chord and. They felt those notes in their own improvisation. It came to them naturally like jazz does to anybody who plays it because my personal feeling is that it can't be taught. I think you can teach chords I think you can teach facility. I think you can teach the use of an instrument but the improvisational part of it has got to come from
inside. And those two people I believe were in the beginning solely responsible for bebop which was originally Reba up in the morning up I think propping it up I don't know what it was we grew out of this segment would you give us an example please Kurkova of bebop and then we'll when we come back we'll talk about where this crazy music is going and what the electronic element did to all of it but. But an example of bebop player. Pianist only but powers probably he probably the number one. We bought pianos as a more or less the same. Seven. Yeah I got five out of the cycle for you that a lot you know. So you have things.
And it's a it's and that was that was one form. But then you got the Charlie Parker and the diseases you know. Thank.
Where it's been where it's going or it's going to.
I do caught up as I am about to do what we just heard of being so wonderful to listen to but I sort of appreciate it as intensely personal to him. Do you get that feeling right. Yes and I'm and I'm and I'm especially pleased that when you're discussing jazz you're talking about a kind of music that was very respectable and beginning it had its beginning and saloons and Vestal in wherever it was rather than your good piano player yes and now we have find students that schools of music you know like at the University of Las Vegas and you know people actually young people actually studying. They are the people who brought it from. It's not a respectable state. However a lot of people have said Kirke that because jazz became so personal so intensely individual that it forgot its commercial value it forgot its audience and therefore its future is in jeopardy. I was in jeopardy and I was in jeopardy I say. It got to the point at one point where people
couldn't better put to it I think that's really part of it. Turn off from the guy like me who wants to be a jocular layman couldn't pass his foot to it and technically he didn't understand what I would want on it if I got it right. He felt like he was being shot at out. With the musicians doing this on purpose. Bit of an elitist group coming up and I don't think so I think they were just inventing creating expressing you know and doing and hurry up listen to because he's where I am so reach up for me. There was a time there were some groups like that I don't call names with that one run. Stan can I say one thousand fifty one. Carnegie Hall I used to sit there at 11 o'clock at night up in the balcony of the cheap seats in the front row. And because Stan Kenton was then doing his real improvisation and you played with him around I do 56 but I was sitting in those rows to San Francisco you know in a head what did he do. As far
as the musical history Stan was an innovator a searcher who was never satisfied to stay in one particular type of music or one particular style of his band. Maybe more in five years. His personality always covered everything it was always when you heard the band it was always Stan Kenton but the music changed a lot. But he was saying in effect historically if you can make that kind of a generalization that takes its time to stop dancing to my music and stop and listen to it true I think he started out. It started out as a dance band with a lot of other dance bands that I didn't think that was really his TRUE. That's not the direction he ever wanted to go and it involved and evolved into other things and do just that right Jazz and no more dancing and concerts. And then as he said many times they didn't even know where they were going. They had to stop and get back on the train themselves. It was he was constantly searching. He was a
man. Where had his time always as far as I was was around. That's what attracted me as a these guys age. That band was always searching for new things always doing new things and some things and work some things to it but always forward never back and he hated to look backward. And as on the earlier interview we had with Sammy about Sammy Davis about Count Basie. Stan did not like Ghost Dance. Meaning when the leader is gone. Band is gone. That's why nobody carries on Stan get his orchestra to do it is to entire library to north Texas they understand and it's always for young people always for the young musician the young ranger the young composer always and it was a privilege to be in an organization like that. But another example of going on camera just did the noncommercial attitude of jazz improvisation or what we're talking about Stan Kenton and such. Did that hurt
jazz as a popular form is that why for instance rock came in to replace it. Probably did it was probably one of the reasons why I changed into rock. Because a lot of people hurt when we're not saying Yeah I don't care where you're going. Like I either cannot get up where you're going or I don't want to and it's threatening to me. It demands too much knowledge that I don't have to think about it and I just want to you know it's not my thing and forget about it. You know my head rolls think and you lose the beat you're losing people. People want something to dance to or something they can come to for if you're floating off into other things which may be great and experimental everything there's an inner core of people that will dig that. But then the masses want to stomp their feet you know what annoyed me at those concerts go where it was all it's got to have a beat You know what it is that is the roots goes back to the roots of the Beat you have to have the beat. What annoyed me about those concerts is that the most tremendous audience
response never came when Charlie Parker was just moving around magnificently but it was when he or Gillespie or something would take a few bars and just John John John and then all of a sudden everyone went wild. There was just an opposite and that's you get turned you wanted to beat and you go with the beat. I get that on something. The young musician today that I had that I'd have said this more than once that I feel sorry for the owner that the day the kids who are here from college there is really no place for them to cut their creative teeth. Jam sessions etc. Nowadays people they be the only musician does not is not interested in saying hey come on let me grab you by the hand and show you this. Well that and the economics of whatever the case may be have sense of course rooms to close whereby the cats can go hang out. I was
fortunate in that I was able to hang out in a room where people like Clifford Brown Camy and Max Roach came in and that was it. This is the Cotton Club in Chicago. They had sessions to 24 hours a day virtually. Seven days a week. And I remember I remember playing one day. I was going around 14 I remember playing and I was a room if you know I thought I would ask but I was doing it you know. And as I came off the stage a man with a cigar. Rather portly gentleman said Son you have a nice right hand. But the piano is a two handed instrument. And I got insulted Of course you know. And he told me some things to do which I did. But before leaving the club I asked Who was he you know who could talk to me like that you know who you know I'm you know young and brassy and you know they are taken with the people who are not. What was the genius of ought to.
What was it that you don't expect he's going to scrabble. You know when you want to say whether because he was did so many and he could do it all I mean he's the only place he and I are two of them stand to me are probably the two masters of this instrument. It really is time to thank and Strykers know this way and I feel that I have heard the note grow in volume really and come back down and you know it's just it's you know you just don't do that. CURTIS Well what happened with electronics it that hurt all of you. Just people already has it taken it into a direction that maybe it shouldn't go. No I think it's I think it's a viable entity in music. It's going to face it's going to be here. I notice you don't you how I have it but I don't use it a lot and I have to thank the thousands and that I did and the electric piano which I don't pull out much. I'm still playing around here. With what direction I want to go. Where is it going generally and as well as word do you want to go personally.
Personally I'd like to see it happen. I think that the future is electronic. You know their homes are elect our electronic now they have to compete everybody has a computer nine at home virtually on and it's going to be that way and something will have to accept. Now I'm only hoping that it is prudently. And tastefully put together and used for something constructive. I think a new form of music even coming. What ideas I don't know yet. You know but I don't really want to have any instincts about what it will be but I don't think so. I know that's not that's not what I meant when I said being prudent with it that meant being you know being being very careful and thoughtful about what they're doing. There are some groups who now and even now when you when you hear like they are turned off. I agree with everything they have you know 9 million amps of this ion and it's a DRE. Excuse me. But I think the Young Musician of the music you elect there would really probably be an electric trumpet as it were. You know we have the saxophone as he is you know
some kid is going to come along or some people are going to come along and eventually create something totally electronic that's going to be very tasteful. Before you would you kindly. They look young too. They are. And back to what I said about cutting one's teeth. You know. I got a break when I was about 15 years old. From a gentleman who was about 35 years my senior and. At trying to pay him back financially he won't accept it. This is my way of paying it back. He's 25 years old this is but Broadnax and he's from Virginia Beach Virginia. You attended Norfolk State University. OK. This is the newest member of the group with a group two weeks. This coming Saturday of the week this coming Saturday. Clayton Cameron he's from Los Angeles and he attended Northridge
Interview with Kirk Stuart
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Vegas PBS
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Vegas PBS (Las Vegas, Nevada)
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Topic: Jazz. An Interview with Kirk Stuart in front of a live studio audience. Performance by the Kirk Stuart Trio.
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Performing Arts
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Copyright Holder: KLVX, Las Vegas, Nevada
Director: Ishmael, Leon
Executive Producer: Hill, John K.
Guest: Stuart, Kirk
Host: Supin, Charles
Producer: Winston, Lee
Producing Organization: Vegas PBS
AAPB Contributor Holdings
Vegas PBS (KLVX)
Identifier: 768 (lag)
Format: Betacam: SP
Duration: 00:58:50
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Chicago: “Inner-View; Interview with Kirk Stuart,” 1982-05-11, Vegas PBS, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed November 30, 2020,
MLA: “Inner-View; Interview with Kirk Stuart.” 1982-05-11. Vegas PBS, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. November 30, 2020. <>.
APA: Inner-View; Interview with Kirk Stuart. Boston, MA: Vegas PBS, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from