Fresh Air

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Fresh Air
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Interview: Actress CCH Pounder discusses her career, her life, and her current work on the FX TV series "The Shield" Review: Kevin Whitehead discusses current works of jazz pianist Michiel Braam
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DATE June 5, 2006 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A NETWORK NPR PROGRAM Fresh Air Interview: Actress CCH Pounder discusses her career, her life, and her current work on the FX TV series "The Shield" TERRY GROSS, host: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today one of the most gripping, terrifically acted and violent TV cop shows receives broadcasting's most prestigious award, the Peabody. The Peabody Web site describes the FX TV series "The Shield" as, quote, `riveting, densely-layered adult entertainment and more. No cop series has posed harder questions than "The Shield" about how far we're willing to let law enforcement officers go to keep us safe,' unquote. "The Shield" is about a police strike team that works the streets to find drug dealers and killers. The team is very successful, but these renegade cops can be as violent as the perps they're stalking. The series is in hiatus on FX, but Spike TV recently started rerunning the series Friday nights. My guest, CCH Pounder, plays Detective Claudette Wyms, an honest and effective cop who knows that the strike team is dirty. Before the show went to hiatus, Detective Wym's superiors found out she had lupus. In this scene they confront her and she confronts them about the investigator from Internal Affairs who has ruined morale. (Soundbite of "The Shield") Unidentified Actor #1: Let me get to the point. I've been made aware that you have a serious medical condition, one that could compromise your ability to perform your duties. You needed to disclose a disease like lupus. You didn't. Ms. CCH POUNDER: (As Detective Claudette Wyms): Because it was a personal matter. Actor #1: Suppose you had taken than header out in the field. You could have put other officers at risk. Ms. POUNDER: But it didn't happen, and I'm not here because of how I knock down doors. Actor #1: I'm ordering you to see a city physician for a full medical review. Until then, you're assigned to desk duty. Ms. POUNDER: Then let's get it done ASAP. I've got plenty of cases to clear. Actor #1: I'm responsible for the health and welfare of everyone working here. Ms. POUNDER: Then maybe you ought to do something about the epidemic..(word censored by station)...in this place. Actor # 1: Claudette, don't let your frustration get to...(unintelligible). Ms. POUNDER: This man Cavanaugh that you've just given the place over to. I understand he's got an investigation to run, but have you any idea what he's doing to morale? Actor #1: You've got a point there. Ms. POUNDER: IAD is arrogant and intrusive. It's the nature of the beast. But this man takes intimidation to a whole other level. He's got every officer in this place spooked. They spend more time looking over their shoulders than they do doing their jobs. Actor #1: That's a fair assessment. Ms. POUNDER: Our last captain had unpopular policies so you stuck us with an interim jellyfish that won't rock the boat, then you cut resources that we need to do the job. Talk about putting people at risk. (End of soundbite) GROSS: Detective Wyms wasn't punished for that outburst, she was promoted to captain. Actress CCH Pounder first became known for her starring role in the 1988 film "Baghdad Cafe." CCH Pounder, welcome to FRESH AIR. You know, although I'm steeped in the reruns on Spike right now, I can't wait to see what happens when "The Shield" returns on FX for its new series with you as the captain. That must be really good news, not only for your character, but for you as an actress, because you're going to be at the center of the show. Ms. POUNDER: Well, actually, more for my public because I was trying to be captain for quite a while, this character, and when I didn't get it the first time and Glenn Close's character got it, I tell you, the news, the letters, the e-mails, were amazing. I had no idea that it would have such an impact, but it went to the bottom line of American racism and... GROSS: Really, like they gave it to a white actress... Ms. POUNDER: ...people perceived themselves... GROSS: ...that kind of thing? Ms. POUNDER: Absolutely. GROSS: Uh-huh. Ms. POUNDER: I couldn't believe it and, you know, you really forget that out in the world there, somehow it translates to a sort of real place for many, many people. So that was about being shoved aside, just like it is in the real world, and people were quite angry and very pissed off. And so they have been sending letters going `If they don't give you that job, I'm gonna...' `If they don't do that'--they were very clear. I'm leaving the blanks out. GROSS: Right. Ms. POUNDER: But they were very clear about how they felt. GROSS: Just for our listeners, for any listeners who haven't been following "The Shield," Glenn Close was the guest star for a whole season, and when you were passed over for captain, she became the captain. Ms. POUNDER: Right. GROSS: So now your character and your character's fans were resentful that she was passed over and Glenn Close got the job as captain. Were you, as an actress resentful? Did you expect your character was going to make captain, and were you sorry that Glenn Close came in and took the position? Ms. POUNDER: Oh no, far from it. As a matter of fact, our writers are--must find me to probably be the most unusual actress that they've dealt with, because I think many of us want to be in a position that reflects real life, like upward mobility, they're the center of attention. And it's not necessarily my interest as an actor. My fascination is how do human beings get themselves out of this particular corner of a box? And usually they would call an actress in and say, `OK, we're going to do this this season,' and I usually say, `I don't want to know about it.' Just write the script, and I'll figure it out. And that's very tough for a lot of other actors to believe and/or take. GROSS: Now, I wasn't sure you'd make it through this last season. Ms. POUNDER: Right. GROSS: You know, we've learned that your character has lupus. You collapsed, and things weren't looking good. I wasn't even sure you were going to come back. Did you worry that you were going to be written out? Ms. POUNDER: Well, I had suggested that if--I had suggested in season five that perhaps Claudette should just boil off because I get frustrated when brilliant people or bright people or fairly intelligent people cannot take one particular person down. How do you dismantle someone like a Vic Mackey? And they keep coming up with fairly clever reasons for me to stay. And one of the things--in the very beginning I always felt that perhaps Claudette was the one that would take Vic Mackey down, and now it might not necessarily be that. But in looking to my character's future, I always thought, `Well, if she took him down, how would she do it? And just, dear God, just don't let him be shot in the streets. I want to have him dismantled.' And that's one of the big challenges I've had is having intelligent people around us and that man still surviving. GROSS: And Vic Mackey is the leader of the strike force and--I mean, he's corrupt, he and his men. They take money from the drug dealers. They beat up suspects to get information. And you're one of the people on the show who's not intimidated by him at all. Why isn't your character intimidated by him? Ms. POUNDER: I think Claudette's already been through her baptism by fire simply by being perhaps one of the earlier black women on the force, sort of female, black--those sort of parameters of the setup sort of becoming a detective, going through what's required in a very all boys network for the most part has got a tough outer layer, treats herself as one of the guys, and doesn't make exceptions for anyone. And she's got a moral code that's very clear, at the moment, how she's written and has not been challenged--she's not had it challenged by anyone so far. GROSS: What's it like being one of the women on a show that's really a very testosterone driven show? Ms. POUNDER: Right. Now, this is the actual great question where there is a crossover, where, as the actress and actors working together, there is an awful lot of testosterone on our set, and there's a lot of testosterone in the story, and that can get very--the crossover, the gray area gets very, very, very blurred. Thank God for Catherine Dent, who is the only other woman that's permanently on the show, and it's--it can get very hairy. People sort of forget that you're a woman, and they speak of all kinds of body parts, as, you know, like cups or saucers or tissues or whatever. So I've used Claudette's attitude a great deal of the time and sort of put my foot down and kind of go, `Now listen, while I'm on the set I don't expect to hear that language,' or `talking about that part of my body while I'm here' and I can pull up Claudette every now and again and be very clear about it. GROSS: Do--that's what you have to do. Ms. POUNDER: But it's--it's testosterone driven. You do, you do. GROSS: Uh-huh. Ms. POUNDER: It's testosterone driven, absolutely. GROSS: Now, one of the things that your character has is a piercing look. She can almost like look through people when she's talking to them. Is that something you can do in real life when you need to? Ms. POUNDER: Apparently. And I'm not really aware of it, but my husband says the same thing. It's like, Whoa! What is that about? So apparently I've had it for a long time, too. GROSS: How did you get the part on "The Shield"? Ms. POUNDER: Clark Johnson, the director of the pilot, I had just finished doing "Boycott" with him. I had one of the best experiences in filmmaking where, once again--I guess this says a lot about me--I had no idea what the next shots would be, even though, as a veteran actor, you kind of figure it out fairly soon. OK, they're going to do that setup, and then it's going to be this, that, and the other. But with Clark Johnson, I had absolutely no idea where the camera was sometimes and how we were going to do the shot, and I found it very exciting. And so I said to him, `I don't care what you're doing next, please could I work with you again?' We did have a wonderful time. Anyway, eventually he called me and said, `Well,the next thing is sort of "Seven Guys and a Blonde, so no luck.' And I went, `OK, fine.' I mentioned it to my agent, Judy Page, brilliant woman, who said, `Well, why can't you be one of the guys?' And so I went, `Whoa!' I don't--I don't--I don't know how to do that. And so she just made the arrangements. My se--I went up with several gentleman, I was the only woman there, and I got the role that way. (Unintelligible). GROSS: So you read a part that was written for a man. Ms. POUNDER: Yes. And it was written in the male vernacular, and in that testosterone driven sound, but he was an old, sort of gumshoe, been around the block quite a few times, and he was on his way to retirement, and I read that role. And I remember Scott Brazil who is our--was our executive producer, I said to him, `Well, it was kind of masculine. If you let me come back and read it again, I'll decide what sex I want to be, because I think I sort of got a really low voice, and I was trying something, and they said, `No, it was actually pretty interesting.' So... GROSS: So the part was rewritten for a woman. Ms. POUNDER: Almost. One of my requests was that they didn't rewrite it for a woman. It's to write the woman as one of the boys, and I think that's what gives Claudette her edge, is that sort of no-nonsense, that tiny lack of sympathy for people really helps her to sort of portray herself as one of the guys, and therefore, person to be reckoned with and certainly somebody that Vic Mackey would not cross the line over, especially when you see him in this series with other women. GROSS: My guest is CCH Pounder, one of the stars of the FX cop series "The Shield." More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. (Announcements) GROSS: My guest is CCH Pounder. She plays Detective Claudette Wyms, who was just promoted to captain, on the FX TV series "The Shield." Now, for anyone listening to you who's a fan of "The Shield," they'll be able to hear that your accent, as you're speaking to us now, is a little different than how Claudette sounds. Ms. POUNDER: Right. Right. GROSS: What's the difference? Ms. POUNDER: I'm from British Guiana, which is now Guyana. I grew up in England, and I came here as an adult. I spent seven years working on American accents, and then Peggy Rogers, who is, by the way, from Philadelphia, was one of my friends in college. And I said to her, `Peggy, I need to speak the way you speak,' and that's how we started. And basically for the first three years of my friendship with Peggy, I stole her voice and would use it for auditions and so on. And then as the years have gone by, it's sort of become that sort of mid-Atlantic, in the middle accent that I do use for work, because a black British actress, when I arrived here, didn't have that much to do except go to auditions and people have you called--always have callbacks and kind of go, `Listen to this one talk,' and I always thought that was the oddest thing. But now, you know, years have gone by, and we're much more international and aware of the rest of the world. GROSS: So would you show up at the audition speaking to the casting director in your more mid-Atlantic voice, so that they wouldn't be prejudiced against your British accent? Ms. POUNDER: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Because, unfortunately, there's a lot of things in America that sort of go with black. I mean, I've actually been told by directors could I be more black. And I would say sort of, `Well, just look at me and tell me what exactly do you want because I can't get much blacker than I physically am, but what attitude would you like?' So it's forced them to describe human feelings in a much higher range than usually when I'm around. You know, it's been really fascinating because--this is a kind of sidebar, Terry--the thing about being black and having a different accent in the beginning is that it makes you foreign, and then it does not make you, how can I use this word? I'll say it, and then you edit it some other way, `a nigger,' and so that, with your accent, you are somewhat protected always by being foreign. But I wanted to be an American actress. Coming from England, I knew that that was where the real stories would be, and it would take England much, much longer to come up with these stories. They're just getting their feet wet now, and this is 25 years ago. And I subjected myself to that feeling so that when people talk to you and you receive those insults and barbs, and I replied just the way with my same neck jerk and I gave them what for, and you kind of become a part of society. It's part of the whole assimilation system, really, and the moment that you're not foreign, then you get hurts and pains and pangs that you are no longer protected by your foreignness, which people, regardless of your color, always give you the opportunity of giving you--graciousness, politeness. They give you the excuse of, `Well, they're not from here so they really would not understand.' GROSS: So... Ms. POUNDER: Does that make sense to you? GROSS: Yeah, and I want to ask you about that in a second. But first, I wanted to ask you, you used what we often call `the n word.' Do you want us to use that word or did you want us to edit it out? Ms. POUNDER: I couldn't find another word--that--that really, that's the word. GROSS: That's the word. Mm-hmm. Ms. POUNDER: That's the word. I have never been called it until I got an American accent. That's really important. Do you understand what I'm saying? GROSS: That's really interesting. I think that's really, really interesting. Ms. POUNDER: Yes. GROSS: So tell me more what you think that says about people's assumptions about African-Americans and black people from other countries? Ms. POUNDER: It is with the same wonderfulness that French people treat African-Americans and the disdain that they treat Africans. GROSS: Mm-hmm. Ms. POUNDER: It is with the same difference that the British treat African-Americans compared to how they treat West Indians, part of their colonies, and therefore, America does the same with African-Americans because we African-Americans here are their colonized people of--who are the underbelly people, the lower strata people. So I hope that's really, really clear. I really want it to be clear. GROSS: You know it's interesting. You spend a lot of time in Africa, too, because your husband's from Senegal... Ms. POUNDER: I do. Right. GROSS: ...and runs a museum there so you're in Senegal a good deal of the time. So you're also a black person in Africa... Ms. POUNDER: Right. GROSS: ...and how does--what are the some of the assumptions you've run into there? Ms. POUNDER: Well, in Africa I would be called a "tubab," which means white for some people, but really it means foreign, and so it's the same. I'm very well treated in Africa because there's the assumption because I'm also exceedingly rich, and I'm--I have the status--the first foreigners that came were white, maybe Portuguese, and they had the--you know, the white people were the tubabs, so--I've heard them call me `No, no, no, no, no. Not that lady, the tubab lady.' And they know exactly who I would be. GROSS: Do they think that you're rich because you're foreign or because you work on television? Ms. POUNDER: Well, they haven't seen me--oh yes, they have seen me on television now. But in the beginning, no, because you're from outside, just really means, you know, coming from another place. GROSS: Now, does being an actress, and a successful one, and being on a series like "The Shield" get you a ticket out of all of those assumptions about how race or country define you? Ms. POUNDER: Oh, yes, sometimes, because that makes you different. You you know, you're more iconic so it can be--you can be in the presence of, say, white people--you're in the presence of white people. They're talking about black people negatively. They see you, but they don't mean `you.' You're different, so you become iconic, and that's very common. I know many, many people are very aware of that. GROSS: So have you used different versions of your accent and different versions of American regional accents in your roles in television knowing some of the implications that accents have in terms of the assumptions people make about others? Ms. POUNDER: All the time, and everyone does it all the time. It's just the difference between, like, you can speak scatologically around--amongst your friends so they understand what you mean. GROSS: Mm-hm. Ms. POUNDER: You speak better towards your parents. You speak in a very formal way towards people that you've never met before. And so imagine, Terry, that I am from a very interracial family in terms of where we grew up, so I was born in Guyana, which has a kind of accent like that. And everybody speaks a little bit on the high side and, `Good morning, girl. It's so nice to see you.' That's where I started. And then you ended up in England, so you have--I did speak the Queen's English, and it was in a boarding school, so it's very, very proper. And then you got to America, but you didn't land in, say, Maryland, you landed in Brooklyn, so I've got an edge as well, so while I'm speaking at my dinner table, you can hear all of those accents all within one conversation. It just sounds like the Tower of Babel, but we all seem to manage and get along. GROSS: CCH Pounder plays Detective Claudette Wyms, who just got promoted to captain on the FX series "The Shield." She'll be back in the second half of the show. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR. (Announcements) (Soundbite of music) GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with CCH Pounder. She plays Detective Claudette Wyms on the FX cop series "The Shield." Just before the latest round of episodes ended, she was promoted to captain. Recently Spike TV started rerunning "The Shield," beginning with the first episode. Today "The Shield" receives a Peabody award at the awards ceremony. Now, in addition to your regular part on "The Shield," you've done a lot of the crime shows. You've done "Law and Order" and "Cagney and Lacey " and "Hill Street Blues," and--I mean, so have you done a lot of victims and, you know, perps on those shows? Ms. POUNDER: In the beginning, I did. In the beginning, I was the sniveling wife with the crying baby, selling crack for medication for her children or being accosted by her husband, abused by her husband. I spent a couple of years, literally, just crying on cue, and I think it was actually "Miami Vice." "Miami Vice" I played a mother on crack who sold her child for crack cocaine and, at the end of it--I had a marvelous time, by the way, in terms of acting, I had a great time--and at the end of it I looked back and I said, `I never want to do this again,' because I had, by this time, discovered how powerful television really, really is. Television is this incredibly powerful medium that people blur the lines between reality and fiction and take it as gospel, so I decided that after that I'm going to play some women of worth, of character, of strength, of authority, educated. Because the people who are watching me needed to see something that was far more uplifting than what I had been doing. GROSS: So what did you do, like, sit home and wait for people to offer you uplifting roles? Ms. POUNDER: I did, and I starved for about a year and a half. And I remember distinctly calling my agent and saying, `OK, well, I'm really sort of six cents in the cookie jar now, so whatever comes next, I'm going to have to take it.' And it was a script for not "Law and Order," "Hill"--"LA Law," the very first one, "LA Law." And I got the entire script, and there was a miserable little person that I was meant to read for, and then there was a character of the judge, and I said, `I want to read for the judge,' and I was told that no black woman had read for the judge yet, and they didn't think they would let you in to do it. And I insisted and my agents backed me up, and I went and read for the judge, and they were all like, `Oh, I guess, yeah, she could be a judge. She could be a judge. There are black judges, aren't there?' That was one of the quotes I heard in the room. `There are black judges out there, I mean that are women.' And somebody said, `I'll look it up,' I remember, a young kid. And I got that job. GROSS: Well, you know, since we were talking about different accents before and different voice placements, I'm wondering if, like, in your years as a victim, on TV shows... Ms. POUNDER: Mm-hm. GROSS: ...on crime shows, was there a certain kind of voice that you would use for that? Ms. POUNDER: Well, it was up, kind of voice high and whiney and then, `I'm not quite sure where she went, but she was over there and I had the children down. They were like down two stairs, and I just don't know where they are right now but--' It was kind of like that. An endless parade of that, so you know, so after a while, you get really nasally. GROSS: And why that voice? What matches about that voice with the kind of victim you had to play? Ms. POUNDER: For some reason, high seems, I guess, in the minds of people, female, therefore vulnerable, therefore, less than, you know--somebody who needs aid, come to one's rescue. It's really true. GROSS: Now, in your role on "The Shield," you use a very deep version of your voice. Ms. POUNDER: Right. I like the professionalism of that. I like the fact that... GROSS: Oh, it's power. Isn't it? Ms. POUNDER: Yes. Yes. It is. It is a maleness that I don't have physically, but I try to ground the--that maleness, that boys' club in the sound of her voice. And by doing so, she gets almost instant authority. And I'm always trying to lose weight, and they're always happy when I'm heftier. And so it's sort of that sort of hefty look with the deep voice and piercing eyes is like, `Yes! That's Claudette Wyms.' But you know, it's part of human nature that we certainly recognize signage, and that really is signage. GROSS: My guest is CCH Pounder. She plays Detective Claudette Wyms on the FX TV series "The Shield." Spike TV has been rerunning the series Friday nights. They're in season two now. (Technical difficulties, overlaying of Gross' voice) GROSS: You know I think... GROSS: Here's a scene... GROSS: ...a novelty act. Is that how you would like to be seen? GROSS: Detective Wyms is interrogating a vicious drug dealer who has huge burns across one side of his face from the burner of an electric stove. GROSS: We seem to be having some kind of problems here, so forgive us as we get this straightened out. So here's the clip we want to hear. (Soundbite of "The Shield") Ms. POUNDER: (As Detective Claudette Wyms) You've got a lot on your plate. Where'd you find the time? Drug trafficking, consolidating a Mexican power base, murder. Am I leaving anything out? Oh yeah. Juvenile rape. Unidentified Actor #2: So you say. Ms. POUNDER: Let's hope that genius IQ means you know how to help yourself. We've got you on tape making a death threat. Actor #2: That could be anyone's voice. I'll challenge it in court. Ms. POUNDER: What about the testimony of a cop with his own grill mark. You going to challenge that too? What happened to your face? You used to be so pretty. Actor #2: I'll only give my confession to Detective Mackey. Ms. POUNDER: You don't make demands, not to me. (End of soundbite) GROSS: CCH Pounder will be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR. (Announcements) GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is actress CCH Pounder, and she's one of the stars of "The Shield." She plays Detective Claudette Wyms. Now, you grew up in British Guiana, and I know you must be asked all the time the question I'm about to ask you, which is did you know anybody who was involved in any way with Jim Jones' cult group in Jonestown? Now, that might have been French Guiana and not British Guiana. Ms. POUNDER: No, no. It was in British Guiana. GROSS: It was in British Guiana? Ms. POUNDER: Yeah. It was in British Guiana. And no, I didn't know. In fact, not many Guyanese people knew about Jim Jones until after the fact, until the airport incident, until it was literally all over, because the people were from the United States. And I don't know if you know the back history. This was when Guyana was opening up its land for development and had--was offering land, you know, for people from all over the world to come there and develop the land, and they would get sort of 70 percent and the government would get 30, so Jim Jones' group were the first Americans that came and created that extraordinary tragedy. And very few Guyanese people know about them because they were in the interior and, as you may or may not know, Guyana is mostly occupied right at the water's edge in Georgetown. That's the majority of the people. We don't even have a million people in Guyana. It's a small, small... GROSS: Mm-hmm. Ms. POUNDER: ...population, and really primordial kind of country. It's the real deal jungle. It's the orchids hanging from the branches. It's anaconda and all manner of strange-looking creatures and bright yellow frogs and just an exquisite place, but that kind of raw, scary beauty that you expect King Kong to come swinging around the corner. And so people have hugged mostly to the edges, which is Georgetown, the biggest--the capital, the biggest city, and that's right on the coast. And there are few interior towns, New Amsterdam and Bartica. GROSS: Mm. Ms. POUNDER: Where Jim Jones was, not a lot of people knew them. GROSS: So how much contact did you have with the jungle? Ms. POUNDER: As I was growing up as a kid, none whatsoever because I was on a sugar cane estate, or plantation, and that was a clear jungle. That was miles and miles of sugar cane and canals, and lots of water everywhere. GROSS: Did your family own the plantation or work on the plantation? Ms. POUNDER: My father was the first African to--he was the second in command at Versailles Estate. GROSS: Now, I read that when you were growing up in Guiana you were struck in the head while watching a match at school--I don't know what kind of match--and that you suffered short-term memory loss. Is that accurate? Ms. POUNDER: Almost. I grew up also in a--after Guiana, I left Guiana about eight. By the time I got to England, I was in English boarding school around nine, ten, got struck at the back of the head with a cricket ball. Did have short-term memory--scared the heck out of the nuns. They didn't know what to do, and so they started to give me a poem per evening to learn, and then they would check it the next day, see how I was coming along with my memory. And it started off with sort of one or two nuns would come just listen to see how I'm doing, and I guess they would go back and say, `That girl, I mean, she's really quite, quite amazing.' You know, `She's quite lovely. You'd better go hear her.' And so I'd get three or four nuns, then five or six nuns, so I found myself entertaining the nuns, and I think that was my first glimpse of applause and pleasing people... GROSS: Mm-hm. Ms. POUNDER: ...by poems, and I think maybe those were my first performances. I used to do also performances after lights-out. I'd play Dracula and Superman and Hercules. GROSS: So what poems did you have to memorize? Ms. POUNDER: Oh, I did things like "The camel's hump is an ugly lump which well you might see at the zoo, but uglier yet is the hump we get, when we haven't enough to do, to do, to do, when we haven't enough to do." And I'd do "Matilda tells such dreadful lies that made one gasp and stretch one's eyes. Her aunt then who was often out to the theater"--can't remember the rest of that one. Those were Ogden Nash. I did a ton of those, and then pretty things like "in copses and woodlands soft wings were astir, mid budding of larches and flying of fur, and a blackbird was whistling out in the ranges over and over and over again, pretty girl, pretty girl, pretty girl." Do stuff like that. I can't believe I actually remembered... GROSS: You still remember a lot of this. Yeah. It's amazing. Ms. POUNDER: ...three or four of these things. I cannot--I mean, it's probably not all correct, but somewhere in there is a bunch of stories that--poems that I'd have to learn. GROSS: So how's your short-term memory now? Ms. POUNDER: My short-term memory is awful. My rote memory is exquisite. And so if you were sick and I had to come and do your show and memorize your show, I would be the person to call. If I had to find my keys to get to the office where you are, to do those lines, it would take me hours to find my keys. I can't remember appointments. I have sticky paper everywhere. And I don't think that memory ever got better, and I'm probably--and I don't want to say it out loud, but I'm probably--a candidate for a memory disease that is so literally right on my shoulder. It's a huge challenge for me right now. Huge. GROSS: Now, I also read that your parents didn't really want you to be an actress. They didn't have a lot of respect for the profession. Ms. POUNDER: Right. My parents are sort of staunch West Indians. They love the work ethic. They believe in doctors, lawyers, something concrete, something that does something for the world. And acting was sort of like, you know, closer to the first oldest profession, as far as they were concerned. They thought this was a waste of an education and somewhat sleazy... GROSS: And obviously you disagree. Ms. POUNDER: ...to put it nicely. I did disagree, but it--I'm telling you, it took me a very, very long time to say out loud, `I am an actress' or `I'm an actor.' It took me a long time. If I was working as a secretary, I'd be proud to say `I'm a secretary,' you know. `I'm working at an insurance company.' And I did tons of temporary jobs, as all actors do. And even when I went to college, I did not go directly to the drama department, I went to the French and English Department and thought I would major in English and then minor in drama. And it took a while to say out loud, `I'm an actor,' and then I had to do it. I was running out of time and excuses. GROSS: You know what I think is funny, like your parents are thinking it's a sleazy profession, it's not respectable. And you think, no, it's a fine profession, and then you end up having to play women who are selling their babies for crack. Ms. POUNDER: Exactly. Exactly. But I'm proud to be able to say now that every profession that my mother ever wanted me to do, I've done it, in acting. GROSS: I have one more question for you. Remember earlier we were talking about--we were talking about how, being from Guyana, you had, you know, a British accent, and wherever you went in the world, people would evaluate you based on your accent. And in America... Ms. POUNDER: Right. GROSS: ...people would treat you better probably than they would treat African-Americans because you were an outsider... Ms. POUNDER: Mm. GROSS: ...and everybody has the people who they've kind of like colonialized and look down on. What was it like growing up black in Guiana? Ms. POUNDER: Well, we were the big cheese there. That was never knowing what racism's about in Guiana. It's all about poverty. It's all about haves and have-nots, and it's very, very different. It's not about the color of your skin, because everybody's skin is black. The Indians--they're East Indians--they're the majority of the population. They're black also. The whites are so burnt and crispified they look like black people there, too, so it's a sort of--everybody's basically brown in Guyana, and the differences, there are many cultural differences--there's East Indian, there's Hindu, there's Muslim, there's Christian, there is native Indian. So there's all of that mix, but poverty's a great equalizer, and so that there are more people equal there than they're nonequal. And it's really about the haves and the have-nots, and in Guiana, I was a have. GROSS: So it sounds like this was a good way to grow up, not being exposed to the kind of racism--yeah. Ms. POUNDER: Yes, because you're innocent to it. You're innocent to it, and you don't really recognize it when it's right in your face until people tell you, `No, that's not what he meant about that watermelon, fool. That's not what he meant at all.' And I kind of go, `Oh, but it was a really good piece of watermelon. I didn't realize, you know, when he called me watermelon eater and I went "Mm, it's really good, sir."' Yeah, you know, there's stuff like that so... GROSS: Well, CCH Pounder, thank you so much for talking with us. Ms. POUNDER: I've enjoyed talking with you, Terry. Thank you. GROSS: CCH Pounder plays Detective Claudette Wyms on the FX series "The Shield." Today "The Shield" receives the Peabody Award at the awards ceremony. (Soundbite of music) (Announcements) (Soundbite of music) * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Review: Kevin Whitehead discusses current works of jazz pianist Michiel Braam TERRY GROSS, host: Jazz critic Kevin Whitehead has a review of two new trio CDs by the Dutch pianist Michiel Braam. Braam runs the jazz program at the conservatory in Arnhem and has been recording for the better part of 20 years as leader of a big band and various small groups. Kevin says, "Braam is typically Dutch in mixing serious music-making with a bit of whimsy." (Soundbite of music) Mr. KEVIN WHITEHEAD: You can tell right off Michiel Braam digs Thelonius Monk. In his piano playing, you can hear some of the same creative clunkiness, the joy in making rude sounds, like that bit that mimics a skipping record. But Braam crosses his Monk strain with the puckish crowd-pleasing tendencies of Errol Garner. He has an odd gift for writing tunes that are catchy and exasperating at the same time. Braam's melody "Hotch as Ginseng" is as repetitive as water torture. (Soundbite of "Hotch as Ginseng") Mr. WHITEHEAD: The Trio BraamDeJoodeVatcher has been around for 16 years. Dutch bassist Wilbert de Joode is a world-class powerhouse. Ex-pat American drummer Michael Vatcher peppers up with suspense-building hiccups and hesitations. The trio started out just playing Monk tunes but long since switched over to Michiel Braam's own material. Their new CD is "Change This Song" on the BBB label. Not content to lead a fine acoustic trio, Braam now has an electric counterpart with a different rhythm section, including bass guitar. It's called his Wurli Trio because Braam plays an old school Wurlitzer electric piano. Their CD is called "Hosting Changes," which is an anagram of the other album's name. In fact, all the tune titles on both CDs are permutations of those same 14 letters: "Hagish Consent," "Can Ghosts Neigh?" "Agog Shinstench." If that word game didn't link these albums enough, half the tunes appear on both. A piece that sounds whimsical played by the acoustic trio can sound even goofier on electric piano. Compare both versions of "Songs Each Night." (Soundbite of "Songs Each Night" from "Hosting Changes" and "Change This Song") Mr. WHITEHEAD: A little pizza parlor ragtime in there,too. Does anyone even know what that means anymore? Michiel Braam also likes the electric piano's potential for raunch like Sun Ra or 1970 Chick Corea with Miles Davis. Braam knows amplifier distortion can be a good thing, can make that Wurlitzer sound like 64 cracked bongos. (Soundbite of music) Mr. WHITEHEAD: Used to be a jazz musician would be happy to lead one good group. Nowadays, players like Braam or Ken Vandermark or Dave Douglas go out on the road with scores of different bands, which is fine as long as they have something to say. Trio BraamDeJoodeVatcher and Braam's Wurli Trio each pack enough punch to justify your attention. Unlike some well-hyped European trios these days, Michiel Bramm's are the real deal--smart and funny. GROSS: Kevin Whitehead teaches English and American Studies at the University of Kansas, and he's a jazz columnist for Emusic.com. Michiel Braam's CDs "Change the Song" and "Hosting Changes" are on the BBB label. For more information about these CDs, go to our Web site at freshair.npr.org. Trio BraamDeJoodeVatcher is on a short tour in the US June 12th through 17th. (Credits) I'm Terry Gross.
Description
HALF: C.C.H. Pounder TEN: Pounder contd. Kevin: Michiel Braam
Description
Fresh Air with Terry Gross, the Peabody Award-winning weekday magazine of contemporary arts and issues, is one of public radio's most popular programs. Each week, nearly 4.5 million people listen to the show's intimate conversations broadcast on more than 450 National Public Radio (NPR) stations across the country, as well as in Europe on the World Radio Network. Though Fresh Air has been categorized as a "talk show," it hardly fits the mold. Its 1994 Peabody Award citation credits Fresh Air with "probing questions, revelatory interviews and unusual insights." And a variety of top publications count Gross among the country's leading interviewers. The show gives interviews as much time as needed, and complements them with comments from well-known critics and commentators. Fresh Air is produced at WHYY-FM in Philadelphia and broadcast nationally by NPR.
Description
(1.) Actress C.C.H. POUNDER. Shes best known for her portrayal of Detective Claudette Wyms on the FX TV show The Shield. Recently her character got a much deserved promotion as Captain. POUNDER was raised in Guyana, and schooled in Britain. Her film credits include Bagdad Caf, Postcards from the Edge, Benny & Joon, and Face/off. Shes also had numerous TV appearances on L.A. Law, ER, and Law & Order. POUNDER is a member of the group Artists for a New South Africa which is involved in AIDS outreach and education. The Shield is one of this years recipients of the prestigious Peabody Award (the awards ceremony is June 5th) (THIS INTERVIEW CONTINUES INTO THE SECOND HALF OF THE SHOW). (2.) Jazz critic KEVIN WHITEHEAD reviews two new trio CDs by the Dutch pianist Michiel Braam (MICK-eel Brahm). They are: Change This Song and Hosting Changes on the BBB label and are available thru the web site HYPERLINK "http://www.Squidco.com" www.squidco.com and HYPERLINK "http://www.subdist.com" www.subdist.com. Trio Braam de Joode Vatcher is on short tour in the U.S. June 12-17.
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Distributor: NPR
Producing Organization: WHYY Public Media
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Citations
Chicago: “Fresh Air,” American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed April 28, 2025, http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-215-44pk0vxd.
MLA: “Fresh Air.” American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. April 28, 2025. <http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-215-44pk0vxd>.
APA: Fresh Air. Boston, MA: American Archive of Public Broadcasting (GBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from http://americanarchive.org/catalog/cpb-aacip-215-44pk0vxd