Speaking of Rochester; 115; Howard Relin

[host]How do you do ladies and gentlemen. I'm Barber Conable and the program is speaking of Rochester. In this program we talk with various pillars of the greater Rochester community, about the past and the present and the future of our community, get some sense of where we've been and where we're headed. Ah today we are privileged to have as our guest a ah ah a pillar of the of the um legal system particularly the public legal system. Our longtime district attorney Howard Relin. It is a pleasure to have you with us Howard and I've ah very anxious to hear what you've got to say about the the administration of of the criminal law because you're the man here and have been for a long time. (guest)Well I appreciate being here Barber. It's always a pleasure to see you. And I think I've expressed ah ah my admiration for you in the work that you did. (unintelligible) many many years. (host)Now now you're a born Rochesterian and many of the people on this program come in from somewhere else drawn by the attractiveness of our area

and and have attached to it, but you it's bred in the bone right here isn't it. (guest)I was born a long time ago at Highland Hospital and uh have stayed here other than college and law school my whole life, and I think it's a wonderful community and it's been a great honor for me to be elected district attorney here. And I love the community and I think it's a unique place in the United States. (host)I don't think there are many of us who live here who want to get away. (guest)I think that's true of some of us might like weather but if we can have weather(host) ha ha ha (guest) like we've had this year no one will ever ever leave Barber. (host)Well the the climate in terms of Justice is pretty good here too. And now you are originally went to Columbia? And you were going to New York Law School and then you dropped out and went in the Army for a while and decided that you really wanted to be a lawyer. And uh came back went to the University of Buffalo and when you graduated from Buffalo law school you you joined the district attorney's office and been there ever since That's since

1968 isn't it? (guest)Yes it's only 30 years ago it uh it seems like it was yesterday but uh I really had wanted to do trial work as a lawyer and my criminal law professor at Buffalo said the best place to do trial work is in a district attorney's office and I took him very seriously and I was fortunate enough to get accepted as an assistant D.A. in 1968 and was appointed in July 2nd and have been there ever since and I've really enjoyed (host) and do have or not had the temptation to go to private practice I'm sure you've been tempted because there's more money there.(guest) Ah (host)But but you've resisted that and public service has been your whole career. (guest)It it has ah. I've really ah never thought that when I started I would have been in the district attorney's office for that length of time. But the reality was the work was fascinating to me. I was trying cases one year I did 21 felony trials and as a young lawyer I don't think there was anything more exciting than than doing that. (host)Now I don't think most people have any idea how big the district attorney's office is. You have

to have a fairly substantial staff here because of the large number of people and therefore the large number of crimes. (guest)We're actually the fourth largest law firm in Rochester.(host) ha ha ha (guest)We have 80 attorneys we have 60 support personnel and our budget is over eight million dollars each year. So it is a large law firm and there is a great deal of responsibility when I tell people there are 80 assistant district attorneys. They're pretty shocked at that I think most people think that somehow we get along with four or five deputy attorneys. (host)I know that's the case. But ah but ah. The necessities of a large urban area like this, I was like that you'd have to have a lot of assistants to run the office. Now you started at the bottom and worked your way up. uh Did you start with petty crimes and things of that sort? (guest)I did I started ah as ah an assistant district attorney in the City Court of Rochester trying petty larceny's, resisting arrest, DWI cases and then

worked my way up to felony cases and then progressed up to murder cases, rape cases, robbery cases, drug sale, the whole gamut of criminal prosecution. (host)And in 1983 your predecessor was ah ah appointed head of the state police, And you were appointed the district attorney and you've been elected four times since then. (guest)Yes I've been very privileged to serve our community. It was a goal of mine a professional goal to be district attorney at some point in my career and uh I'm certainly very pleased that I've been able to show the citizens of our community that we do a good job in our office and I'm planning on running for one more term next year in 1999. (host)Well good I think. I think people will be relieved to hear that. (guest)Well I appreciate you saying that. (host)Ah, ah, How It's, it's a kind of a tough job isn't it? This business of prosecuting people who've erred and ah and ah having to pay the consequences and yet it's pretty necessary to have anti-social

types taken out of ah, an environment in which they can reek harm on other people. (guest)That's a good description of it. ah There's a balancing process. When we have violent crimes there isn't a great deal that we can do to help change those people so that those people get treated very seriously and end up in prison for long periods of time. Our hope is that with some younger people in the criminal justice system the probation and community service sentencing can help reform them so that they don't go on to become violent criminals and one of the things that's happened recently that's been good has been the drug court in the City Court of Rochester. Their people are getting drug treatment for their drug addiction. And we have several hundred people that have gotten out of the criminal justice system as a result of drug treatment. (host)Have been treated and therefore didn't have to commit crimes to get their ah their. Their ah, particular addiction.

Attended to. (guest)Exactly. (host)and and ah many of them are very young people aren't they also? (guest)They are, from the time that I join the district attorney's office ah. til now we would see people in 1968 in the system a 25 26 years old who were starting criminal behavior. Now people started at the age of 11 or 12 and ah that is alcohol abuse and drug abuse and a variety of other things other factors but the one of the disappointing trends in criminal justice, not just in Monroe County but throughout the United States is the fact that criminals are getting younger and younger and younger and violent criminals are getting younger and that's something that is very difficult to deal with. uh when you look at the community and the wonderful community that we have here. (host)So if the problem is drugs and it's very young people. If you can get them off into a treatment program it's far preferable to sending them to prison with hardened criminals and ah, locking them into a life

of of violent crime isn't it? (guest)That's ah, one of the things that we've done with the drug court and it's been so successful here in Rochester, that we're now one of the teaching drug courts in the United States. (host)Now what does that mean you mean your people work on these particular types of problems. Move around a good deal is showing how you have successfully treated druggies to keep them from becoming violent? (guest)Yes and we've had people from all over the United States come to Rochester to observe the drug court and to then replicate what we do here and take it back to their own communities. Last year we had people from Oregon, the state of Washington, I think Nevada and many states quite far away and it's been a very very good program and that's one of the things that I think has been good in the criminal justice system in recent years. If we can get people out of criminal justice out of coming back as a recidivist we save five or 10 crimes a week per person so we're saving literally hundreds of crimes a month

by getting drug treatment for people.(host)Recidivism is a big problem isn't it? Recidivism is the return to crime after you've taken your punishment and ah of course in this in this state we treat repeat offenders rather rather roughly don't we? (guest)We do and (host)I lived near Attica prison and they're all full of people who've committed multiple crimes over a period of years and therefore are lifers. (guest)When we get to the situation where someone goes to Attica or Auburn the maximum security facilities. Ah The chances are four in five that they will come back out into the criminal justice system unless they're in jail for life sentences of course. But that's one of the problems and, the former division for youth which is our state facility for people under the age of 16 has some appalling statistics that people that have been there in their programs have a 75 percent recidivism rate. And one of the things we're doing in Monroe County is to take, after care workers

from the county and follow up the people who go into the division for youth which is now family ah ah actually family care. Is their a new title, ah to prevent them to get almost like a parole system for young offenders so that we can give them education, drug treatment, job counseling, an a variety of other things to prevent them from becoming part of the recidivists that we see in the system. (host)We hear a lot nowadays about, bout, very young people committing violent crimes particularly school shootings things of that sort. And that's happened around the nation that isn't necessarily in any one part of the nation. But ah that's a particular problem isn't it? (guest)It is ah in Rochester. (host)Is this a matter of gun availability or is it is it more a matter of early use of narcotics or what is it? [guest]There are a number of factors Barber I would say that the primary factors are, a lack

of parental support.(host) un ha (guest)We have a single parent family and many times a single parent has no control over the child. We have alcohol (host)Frequently a single parent has very little contact with a child because he or she has to work to earn a living and the child is left flopping around out there. (guest)Exactly. And ah we also have them being recruited by drug dealers to work in the drug area so that they become (host) become runners and things of that sort, (guest)they become runners and carriers for drug dealers. They also have availability of illegal handguns and they then get the idea that they are all powerful as a result of having handguns and they don't hesitate to use the handguns and it's shocking that Rochester could have people like that here. But in that sense we're not very different than New York or Philadelphia or any major urban center. (host)They see violence around them a good deal don't they also? And even on

television and in the movies where violence seems to be more entertaining to some people than ah thoughtful entertainment. (guest)In addition to that they see violence in their own home. They see relationships, that are violent relationships, where from the age of two or three they're used to someone beating up their mother. They're used to some type of a abusive situation. (host)Sometimes they're the subject of abuse also (guest)and many times they are the subjects of abuse both a physical abuse and mental abuse. And that creates a great risk that in the future they will then become abusers themselves. (host)They don't have the balance in their lives, that ah, that ah, prevents them to, to find a more equitable type of survival. (guest)They don't have a situation in their life as we did when we were young, that if we ever get into an argument, our parents would counsel us and say let's just discuss this or let's stop discussing it and let's not get into a physically confrontive situation. Now physically confrontive is not just punching someone, it's stabbing

someone or shooting someone, so that the escalation of violence certainly is tied into the availability of weapons. (host)That's a difficult subject in itself. (host)The administration of the law with respect to hand guns and things of that sort depends on the states to a substantial extent. Some states it's very easy to get a gun. And in New York it's pretty tough. But of course there's nothing to prevent somebody getting a gun somewhere else and and ah transporting it into New York for sale or for ah, for use. (guest)That's the major problem we have. We have a pipeline from southern states up into New York State and many of the guns are just Saturday night specials that are cheap handguns, manufactured to (host)To get a bullet into somebody. (guest)Right to get a bullet into someone or to be participating in a crime. And ah despite the tough laws that we have in New York, which certainly could be a little tougher ah, but in any event, those cases come up here

the bullet, the guns, and ammunition comes up here and they help trigger the violent crime that we see. (host)And then you have the other side, the people who say I don't want to have my gun taken away from me because then only the criminals will have the guns. (guest)Well I think you and I would probably agree that ah, that anyone who wants to go through the registration process and the background check, should have a gun to protect themselves. I don't think you and I would disagree about that. The difficult part is the excessive accessibility of guns coming up here to people who are engaging in criminal behavior. And that's that's our problem, as it is in every community and in the United States (host)Can you give us any idea of what percentage of the violent crimes are committed now by people who are addicts of one sort or another? [guest] I would expect that ah, when the sheriff talks about people in jail, that probably 80 to 85 percent (host)that much (guest)of violent conduct would be by people who abuse both alcohol and drugs. And

it's normally a combined abuse ah, because they're used to catering to themselves in terms of substance abuse, so alcohol becomes part of that as well. (host)That's pretty important for parents to hear isn't it? (guest)It is (host)so in other words in other words if they see their child embarking on a course of substance abuse, ah they shouldn't be surprised if at some point in that child's life, violence occurs. (guest)I think that's something that every parent has to realize, that there isn't anything more important. in addition to obviously giving their children moral precepts, ah but if you see the potential for substance abuse, that is going to trigger a great many things that could ruin your child's life and we know that it will hurt them educationally, and we know that if young people in the community don't get educated and don't continue their high school degree at a minimum, the chances are that their job opportunities will be minuscule in the future and they will then turn to potential criminal conduct

such as drug selling to ah to earn a living and that will only trigger an escalation of violence. (host)Well Howard Relin has a reputation of being a kind of a hands on district attorney. you're an administrator obviously, because you've got a very large staff that has to be watched and advised and counseled with. You came up through the ranks and tried a lot of cases yourself didn't you? And do you have any idea how many felony cases you personally tried (guest)well it would be (host)in the course of your career. (guest)It would be over 100 felonies and I think we were talking earlier Barber one of the things I miss ah about that when your district attorney you're doing a great deal of administrative and supervisory type of responsibility not being in court is something that is an assistant DA, as a former assistant DA you always miss, so I get into court a lot with Ricky and the first assistant when he tries cases and many of the other assistants and it's fun to go in to see them

and see the growth that they've shown during their career in the DA's office so I try to get into court as much as I can. I wish I could still try cases but when you're in the court of last resort for administrative decisions it's hard to take a month off and then go into court. (host)You are active in the in the. District attorneys associations, also are you not? You've been (guest) yes I (host)the head of the state of district attorneys association. (guest)I'm the former president of the state association and now I'm on the National Board of Directors for the National District Attorneys Association. (host)Obviously in the criminal law you have to do a lot of networking. And and there's a lot of exchange of information isn't there? (guest)There is. We're working on a new program in Monroe County with a specific district attorney for elder abuse cases.(host) ah (guest)That's something that's starting to become more and more prevalent. (host)As the elderly become a larger component in our population is almost inevitable isn't it? (guest)It is, and we know that we're going to be getting a much larger elderly population. So we now for the first time of earmarked

a specific assistant, Joanne Winslow, who will work in that area and we're going to be doing a demonstration this summer to the National District Attorneys Association. We've received some state funding for this program(host)isn't that good! (guest)and we've received the assistance of our local delegation including Senator (?) and Senator Lessie. So it'll hopefully be a critical program not just for us but for everyone in the United States. (host)Older people are more easily victimized Than many of the other. parts of our society aren't they? And ah they become targets for youthful offenders who ah see them as easy, the easy to knock over. (guest)They become targets for people at every level. Caregivers, sometimes family members, sometimes people who are neighbors who masquerade as friends and they do everything they can to relieve them of their funds. Many times you have a situation where people close to the

elderly are turning into financial abusers of the elderly.(host) un ha (host)What about the death penalty Howard? How do you feel about that. Is it justified under some circumstances. (guest)It certainly is Barber, I think the case that we had several years ago the Shawcross case was a good example of that. That was a defendant convicted of killing 11 women over the course of two years and he claimed to (host)Obviously the chance of of ah his becoming a useful citizen rather slight. (guest)Rather slight, he received a sentence of 250 years to life in which means that he'll he'll die in prison. But where you have someone who commits venal crimes of that nature who scares the community and frightens the community I think the only effective punishment for that person would be the death penalty. He was fortunate that he avoided the death penalty because we had none at that time. He was convicted in 1992 and the death penalty didn't come into being in 1995 but I think if District Attorneys are careful about the imposition of

it and go for cases that are really the worst cases of all. It certainly has a place within the criminal justice system.(host)Now there's another issue I'd like to talk to you about in the criminal justice area and that is plea bargaining. Some people ah feel that ah that you ought to try every case. Our current system would flood out wouldn't it if that happened? (guest)Well we try proportionally more felony cases in Monroe county than any other large county in the state. (host)Is that so? (guest)We try about 30 percent of the cases that are indicted and that may seem like a small figure but in New York they try 1 percent of the cases that are indicted sometimes even less than that. So plea bargaining is something that I think concerned citizens ah and from two perspectives I think it's important to to understand it. First we have a very restrictive plea bargaining policy here. Once a grand jury indicts then we will not reduce the case unless something unusual has happened to the case so that

84 percent of the people convicted of felonies, are convicted of the top count of the charge. Ah but at the other end if you have a young person who's committed a felony, and it's a technical felony, the reality is is that that person is going to be getting probation. (host)What do you mean by a tactical felony? (guest)Well ah aiding and abetting (host)criminal mischief yes (guest)they do damage to a car and it's over two hundred fifty dollars. If it was over two hundred fifty dollars it would be a felony if were under $250 it would be a misdemeanor. The reality is the victim in that case wants restitution. They want to be made whole for the damage that was caused and to let that person plead guilty to a misdemeanor and make restitution and be placed on probation. Will be the same sentence they will get if they're convicted of a felony.(host)Sometimes in felony murder cases where the person did not actually participate in a murder for instance and wasn't expecting the murder to occur. You'll find extenuating

circumstance of one sort or another. (guest)That's right and you have to be conscious of what you can prove as a district attorney. If we're not going to be able to prove the highest charge, then it makes sense to resolve the case where we can get a long sentence that would be an appropriate charge so. (host)But But even probably the greatest reason for plea bargaining is that usually you can arrive at pretty much the same punishment that you would get if you tried the case. Ah and still avoid flooding out the courts. with so much in the way of trial time that the, that the whole system would bog down (guest)Well to give an example Barber we normally try 260 to 270 cases in Monroe County and that's with approximately 40 felony trial attorneys. If we were to double that we would need to double the staff of the district attorney's office, double the staff of the public defender's office, double the number of judges, that were available so that would be a cost of millions of dollars to taxpayers in Monroe

County and throughout the state, and the reality is as you just pointed out, the sentence in all likelihood would be no different after the conviction than the plea that took place to the top count of the indictment before the case was tried. So there is a legitimate reason for plea bargaining. The only thing that I think as the district attorney that you have to be careful about, is that you don't let it run rampant, and you make it as restrictive as possible. (host)You've got to be sure that your law officers are adequately trained so they can get the evidence necessary to convict. Because if you go into court with, with faulty evidence obviously you're playing a game of Russian roulette with society. (guest)Well we're fortunate here we have a training academy for all local officers and myself and the assistant district attorneys do go in to the training academy regularly to help instruct officers, and there's a very close association also between my office and the 14 ah departments that work

within Monroe County the police departments. (host)Well do you see any major trends in criminal law that we ought to talk about here today? (guest)Well I think there are two things that I think are, are ah good trends. One is that of community involvement, (host)Ahh (guest)more and more citizens are getting involved to help. (host) Mayor Johnson is important in that to. (guest)And Mayor Johnson has done some great things in that area. He's gone out to community groups and said If you want to make a difference in your community and make your community a better place, than when a crime occurs you have to give information to the police and you have to testify. And that's very very important, (host)In other words if there was one message you wanted to give to the average citizen it would be to accept responsibility for your neighborhood. And ah and ah understand that that, that the perf professionals can't do the whole thing. (guest)I think that's a perfect way to describe it. If people would say this is my neighborhood this is my community, and if a crime occurs here I will

help participate, and help see that that crime is solved. We could reduce crime in Rochester by probably 50 or 60 percent. And that's important to have public officials like the mayor, the county executive, the sheriff, myself, go out into the community and get that message across and Bill Johnson does it as well as anyone can do it. (host)Obviously Howard society depends very much on the kind of work you do. We thank you for the diligence you put into that into your work. We're very pleased to had you on the program here today and we wish you well in the future. We we hope the district attorney's office will continue to be a beacon of justice. (guest)Well thank you Barber I appreciate being here and it's great to see you as always. (host)Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen our guest has been Howard Relin, our long time district attorney in Monroe County, ah and we're most grateful for his work and for what he's been able to tell us today. (music) (narrator)If you'd like a copy of this program send 19.95 to WXXI. Post

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