Speaking of Rochester; 208; Ruth Rosenberg Naparsteck

How do you do ladies and gentlemen. I'm Barber Conable and this program is called, "Speaking of Rochester" wherein we discuss Rochester's past and present and perhaps its future. Um In an earlier program we we met with Ruth Rosenberg Naparsteck ah the City Historian since 1987. And ah a we're marveled at the extent to which her understanding of the lore of Rochester has been acquired in that length of time. We did that program on the Pont de Rennes Bridge below the High Falls. Now we're standing on the Court Street Bridge. With the the Broad Street Bridge in the background. And this also is part of the center of Rochester and one of the reasons why Rochester is where it is. Welcome back to the program, Ruth we're happy [Ruth] Thank you. [Host] to have you again and we want to talk about this area and what it means to Rochester and, ah and, ah

I know you can tell us a lot of, fill us in on a lot of the details. We're standing at the back of the Rundel Library.[Ruth] Yes. [Host] The Rundel library is a relatively new building. I'm - I can tell you I'm always people were always astonished to know that Mr. Rundel is buried in the Alexander Village Cemetery. I live in Alexander - 45 miles from here. He was a relative of George Eastman and got in on some of the early Eastern stock, as a result, thought he owed Rochester a contribution at the time of his death. Ah The Rundel Library is, of course, our great reference tool here in in Rochester. But as we stand here ah we're outlined against the Broad Street Bridge which also includes the aqueduct wherein the Erie Canal used to cross the Genesee River. Ah, also, this is the area where at Ebenezer Allen first the resident of the Rochester built his mills over where the a Blue Cross Arena now it's located. Um

Tell us a little something about the River at this point a Ruth, if you can. [laughs] This is an area which a used to be a be a problem a flood problem, isn't it? [Ruth] It certainly did-- the Genesee River people didn't really appreciate the magnitude of the watershed up until 1865 when we had the most serious flood in Rochester's history. [Host] Of course, the river rises all the way down in Pennsylvania. [Ruth] That's right. [Host] It does have a tremendous watershed. [Ruth] That's That's right and in the last century people thought of the Genesee River as just appearing here they used it for filling the Erie Canal, for feeding the mills and also for dumping things into and then they thought that pollution would just dilute itself and be carried off through the the Genesee River. They also [Host] It was an open sewer for a long time, wasn't it? Yes it was for decades really until recently. But in 1865 we received a telegram from the Mount Morris area telling Rochester to expect a flood and at that time it would take a about 24 hours for flood waters to reach Rochester. But the people here ignored it; they looked around and didn't see any particular weather conditions that they

were not used to and they thought. They were somewhat of a flood every year anyway, the River was fit-full in the Spring. This was in June of 1865. They ignored the warning coming from the south. And about 6 hours later the River began to rise very seriously and by midnight of the evening they received that telegram the water was coming over the Broad Street Bridge which was then the Erie Canal aqueduct; it leveled with the top of it,so that you could not see in the old photographs where the Erie Canal left off and the Genesee River left off. It came so close, so rapidly that the people were unable to rescue their goods from The Downtown area and because there was a depression in the elevation in the Main Street area down at the Four Corners where the Power's Building is many of the buildings became submerged right up over the top of the 1st floor so that all you see in the old photographs is the awnings. [Host] Really a terrible flood! [Ruth] Yes [Host] Did a lot of damage. [Ruth] and the River came with such force that it carried whole trees that it had swept off the Outer Banks from the Genesee River on the south end. And it rammed through the south end

of the buildings on the Main Street Bridge crossed the Bridge and exited through the buildings on the north side and continued on out to the Lake. Some went broadside against the bridges and backed up creating their own dams and it sent water on to the Genesee Valley Canal, as well, on the west side, so that both of those Erie Canal sending water east and west of the Genesee Valley Canal, sending water north throughout the City of Rochester [Host] as a result of that terrible flood, did they They decide to take corrective action? [Ruth] They They did, but in a typical government way, I think, they had the 1st of about 3 major studies over the next 50 years [Host laughs] and it wasn't until this century that they actually did something about it before Before that they did bandaid jobs. They thought well, we'll build a wall, and so they put a retaining wall up and then they thought they would do something with the bridges make them a little wider make them a little higher so that anything coming through there would not be jammed against it. And then they decided in the teens in this Century to deepen the river, so that was the first of 2 river deepening projects where they actually dynamited the base of the River [Host] So it is deeper now than it was

before. [Ruth] It is 17 feet deeper, so that the Upper Falls which we refer to as 97 feet is actually 81 feet today. They, in other words, a deepening here they made the Falls lower.[Ruth] Actually all the way from Court Street to the Falls they cut out much much of [Host indistict]. [Host] [Indistinct] The water would be flowing uphill from here to the Falls.[Ruth] That's right. That's right [Host] So they had to do a major job. But the bottom of this is is solid rock; [Ruth] It's solid rock. [Host] It's shale of some sort. [Ruth] It had to be to be blasted out [Host] It had to be blasted.[Ruth] with dynamite carried out on little trains on tracks that were set right down here in the river and up by the Falls they were putting it onto wagons and little trains and dumping it over the Falls. So that actually created a flood problem for those people like Bausch and Lomb north of the Falls.[Host] Ah ha, well now, [Host] Before this this a a dramatic flood. [Ruth] Yes. [Host] there were a lot of mills here. I mentioned that this is where Ebenezer Allen had his mill. I notice there's water coming out from bottom of of a The Rundel

Library. [Ruth] Yes. [Host] It must be an old mill race. [Ruth] Approximately where the Court Street Dam is today is where Elijah Johnson and his partner Seymore built the Johnson and Seymore Raceway that fed both of this raceway named for them and also the Rochester Fitzhugh & Caroll Raceway on the west side which fed the Ebeneezer Allen Mill in prior years prior to its construction. He had a mill and race a Raceway in the same area,what you see [Host] Elijah Johnson was one of the early developers of Rochester wasn't he?[Ruth] He was was he's one of my favorite characters because he seems to be the kind of man who said we need this, so I'm going to build it. One example, is he built in the best site in this whole area for a raceway because it's very flat and shallow most of the time. He put in the raceway and he thought that because it was spanning the River he would also feed the other side and he sold that that right to draw up water from his mill. He ran it over here just on the side of what was to become the Erie Canal and it it fed several of the mills along this area. On the west side

which was then developed further with the Rochester Fitzhugh &Caroll Mill [Host] And that had swept away by earlier floods hadn't it?[Ruth] Yes it was. And that's what Colonel Rochester was seeing they saw that the Mill Race really wasn't built very well partly because it would have had to be dug through stone so it had to be blasted out. Then Elijah Johnson also thought it would be good to have a connection between the Erie Canal and the schooner's at the Falls so he built the Carthage Railroad which was a horsedrawn railroad [Host] Horsedrawn railroad [Ruth] and he actually. invented the track; it was a metal covered wooden railroad track with a stagecoach that was modified to be horsedrawn and carrying passengers and goods between the Erie Canal and the schooners. He also built the 2nd Main Street Bridge [Host] So did this put him in competition with Colonel Rochester who is the the developer whose name finally settled on the city? No, not at all actually they worked together. And Johnson's property here 80 acres was actually annexed to Rochester before it even became a city in

1834. [Host] Ah. So the 2 of them work together and they then they get both are entitled to some credit for the [Ruth] Yes, yes. [Host] develpoment for this as an early city [Ruth] So you can see which of the developers worked together because of the way our streets are laid out. Some of the streets joined together like they do in the Browns Race area and here with the 100 acre tract on the west side. Other areas you'll see a street and you need to take a little jog to continue on that street that is usually a sign that that was an area that joined the City later after the cities were laid out as separate little settlements. [Host] Then the famous "100 Acre Tract" was on the west side of the River. [Ruth] Yes.[Host] And included. Places like Corn Hill area. [Ruth] Yes. And a third ward and so forth, [Ruth] Yes and [Host] there were there were originally that was where many of the wealthy people lived. [Ruth] Yes that's where the Miller's lived most of whom made their money off of the mill sites down in the Brown's Race area. But some also from the east and west sides of where we're standing near the Rundel Library and the Blue Cross Arena. [Host] All right now tell us about the Aqueduct over the ah under the Broad Street Bridge.

It's a a We can see the little a a arches there. Ah, So that the water flowed below the arches-- at that point the Erie Canal was only about 4 feet deep, wasn't it? [Ruth] It was at first about 4 feet deep and today we keep it 10 to 12 feet deep. [Host] What about. [indistinct] [Ruth] It's guaranteed by the State. [Host] But of course, but of course, has not been used that part has not been used for a long time. [Ruth] That's right. In 1918 it closed and at that time it was probably a 6 to 8 foot depth and much wider. What what the Broad Street Bridge shuts on is the Second Erie Canal Aqueduct. The first one, by the time it was completed in 1823 the canal officially opened 2 years later, but they already knew the canal was too narrow to contain the amount of traffic that was brought onto it and that was really unexpected and it made New York the Empire State. This secondary canal-aqueduct is much wider and much deeper and it was also very successful. [Host] But ultimately the canal crosses the river in a just a river crossing ah ah By a by a The Genesee Valley Park. [Ruth] Yeah,

yes. [Host indistinct] [Ruth] Today it was possible in 1918 when they replaced the canal in downtown Rochester it was possible through different engineering to make it grade level and that was partly because the canal was re-routed, as well, so that the water didn't have such a steep decline or incline. They didn't need to put in locks, but in the Downtown area when they changed from the muledrawn canal boats to the diesel, the boats became much larger and again the Canal needed to be enlarged and there was no room in Downtown with the buildings here to accommodate it. And people were upset with the Canal too when they would drain it in the winter. Some people thought it was wonderful they could ice skate in the Canal and be uninterrupted by the traffic. But other people saw the dead mules in the [Host] Oh oh. [Ruth] And then the old garbage that had been thrown into there. [Host] The pollution from the barges that went up and down The Canal. [Ruth] Yes, yes and there were some interesting things that developed too when the seasons ended in around November early December. People would bring their canal boats to the eastern widened waters which is today Lake Reilly at Cobb's Hill Park. Or, they would go to what was called the

rapids which was on the Genesee River near the bend at the University of Rochester. The Brooks Genesee Avenue area and [Host] Not real rapids. [Ruth] They were rapids; they're now submerged when they put in the Court Street Dam in order to keep the river level high enough for the Canal it submerged the rapids. But at one time there was a little community there called Castle Town and they thought that was a good place. The Wadsworth's had defined as a place for a community because it was a transfer point. That was the end of navigation because of the rapids people had to stop take their goods off put it on wagons and continue their journey around the Falls [Host] around the Falls. Yes. [Ruth] to the Lake. But after the Court Street Dam and Elijah Johnson Johnson's Dam was put in that raised the river level and the the rapids were submerged, but also the Erie Canal feeder was put in at approximately that area. So people used to bring their boats up and take a a jog onto the Erie Canal feeder and they would come out near the warehouse at One Mount Hope Avenue. That that stands today.

[Host] Let me ask you, we're on the Court Street Bridge, [Ruth] Yes. [Host] right now. The Court Street Dam was where? [Ruth] It is just a little bit south. [Host] A little bit south. [Ruth] Yes. [Host] And it was it was not part of the bridge. [Ruth] It It was not, no. That was put in in order to raise the water level for the Barge Canal System which was put in in 1918. [Host] The Barge Canal System needed water because it it'd ah if the river was was low at that point the water wouldn't flow into the Barge Canal, is that right? [Ruth] Right. [Host] So. [Ruth] The water actually coming from the west side to fill the Erie Canal goes across the River at grade level and it makes a change because of the velocity and the current volume of the Genesee River coming from the south. It actually sweeps some of that river coming from Lake Erie sweeps it north so that we're actually bringing Lake Erie water into the Genesee River flowing north to our Lake Ontario. The rest of the water coming from the south on the Genesee River is swept by that same current. Eastwards so that some of the river water is then entering the Erie Canal [Host[ Erie Canal [Ruth] and going eastward. So there is a slight exchange there.

[Host] Well now this must have been a very humming ah business business spot, mustn't it? [Ruth] It certainly was [Host] With all the mills along the River here in the center of Rochester. [Ruth] Hm mm. [Host] And the city radiated out from this point. the residential part of the City [Ruth] and the government business areas in this area. [Host] Well now ah tell us about the government business areas. It was there some competition about where the ah Government buildings would be? [Ruth] Yes, each of the settlements had their own public square which was intended to be a courthouse square which is what court house [Host] Now each of the settlements. When you say each of the settlements which settlements do you mean? [Ruth] There were about 6 settlements along the Genesee River, including Carthage, Charlotte which still identifies itself so strongly that many people say, no I don't live in the City I live in Charlotte. [Host] But Charlotte is part of the City, technically. [Ruth] Yes it is. Yes, and this 80 acres belonging to Elijah Johnson was a separate section [Host] And the "100 Acre Tract" was another section. [Ruth] Yes and what we call [Host] The "100 Acre Tract" [Ruth] Washington Square [Host] finally got the government buildings.[Ruth] That's right because Nathaniel Rochester agitated for the Square to be in his 100 acre tract; he already had the Main Street Bridge which was a state road coming through

there since 1812. So an 1821 when the County of Monroe was formed his seemed like the appropriate place to put the the Courthouse. [Host] So the Courthouse has been there since 1821. [Ruth] Yes, on that same site even though it's not the same building [Host] Even though the City didn't become a city until ah 1830.... [Ruth] 4. 1834, [Host] '34, '34. [Ruth] but it was 1817 that it was large enough to become a village. [Host] Now where there are other buildings around here that had considerable significance to early Rochester right around this point? [Ruth] Yes. Yes that's the site of the Blue Cross Arena. The War Memorial is where Ebenezer [Indistinct] Allen had his Mill prior. [Host] The Blue Cross is this side of the War Memorial [indistinct]next to each other, aren't they? [Ruth] It's on the west side of the River; that's right.[Host] on the west side of the river. Yes [Ruth] Yes, and the Kimball Tobacco Company was there most recently and the ah [Host] Was tobacco grown in western New York? [Ruth] They tried to grow it, but it didn't have the same quality that the ones from Virginia or North Carolina had. [Host] They grow it in Connecticut, I know, too and they grow it on Ontario [Ruth] Yes, but [Host] But. [Ruth] the very best of of the ah

cuts was taken from North Carolina and Virginia and brought here and they were cut in different [indistinct] ways. [Host] So they did not furnish the tobacco for this particular tobacco industry. [Ruth] No, they didn't. What made this Kimball Tobacco Company so large nationally was that they took inventions and they also took improvements on inventions that they purchased and worked on; they were able to actually produce miles of cigarettes per day because they had a cutting machine and they had certain types or shredders that would cut tobacco in different angles so that they could use it for pipe tobacco or cigars or cigarettes [Host] Snuff. [Ruth] and rather than hire women which they said had the agile fingers to roll cigarettes. They developed machines that could do that so that they could produce miles and miles of cigarettes. They also [Host] When did cigarettes become popular? They They smoked cigars or up through the Civil War [Ruth] The Crimean War actually because people were introduced to the Turkish tobaccos and the Turkish cigarettes and the men brought that home with them and that popularized it in this country even though the Turkish tobacco's were very very

strong. [Host] What brand of the Kimball Tobacco Company ah ah produce? [Ruth] Ah Excelsior was one of them, but there were many many different [Host] This was a [Ruth] brands. [Host] A big tobacco industry here. [Ruth] It was it was nationally important and it was so important that the American Tobacco Company bought it out in the early 20th century.[Host] Ah ah. [Ruth] They had a very very successful public relations advertising art about them too. They began to put small playing cards so you had a 52 plus the 2 jokers [Host] Yes. [Ruth] and they put girls-- it would be equivalent to the Gibson Girls or something like that and they were all dressed very, sort of risque. [Host] Scandalous [Indistinct][Ruth] for those days.[Laughter] Today you wouldn't consider them that way at all,[Laughter] but they were burlesque type and the men were very anxious to collect all of those cigarettes. They also [Host] The Kimball Tobacco Company then was where the War Memorial is now [Ruth] Yes, yeah. [Host] where the Blue Cross Arena is. [Ruth] Yes the arena's inside the War Memorial. [Host] Now what about across ah the ah the ah Broad Street Bridge.

Ah what buildings were over there?[Ruth] That is the lawyers co-op and it stands along with the bank building just towards Exchange Street at the side of the [Host] the lawyers building is the one with the mercury figure on the top. Yes. [Ruth] That's right and that was moved from the top of the smokestack of the Kimball Tobacco Company. Mrs. Kimball thought that the downtown skyline was very ugly with smoke coming [Host laughs] out of all the stacks and she wanted to put some artwork on it. So they hired their, I believe, it was the brother-in-law and he is the 1 who created the model for it and. [Host] For Mercury? [Ruth] Yes and they thought that is was beautiful. [Host] So that goes back a long ways beyond the lawyers co-op a a business.[Ruth] It certainly does. Lawyers Co-op has had it only for about a couple of decades since about 1973. Prior to that [Host] So it's a [Host] landmark in Rochester now [Ruth] It certainly is and [Host] And, [Ruth] during that time it wasn't there it was really missed and the people were asking for it to be brought out, so it was put on. [Host] We owe Mrs. Campbell for it. [Ruth] Yes we do. [Host] Ruth we've looked at the north side of the Court Street Bridge in some detail, but there

are some things to point out on the south side, as well. Ah, for instance, ah that ah the red building over there is the old Casket Factory isn't it? [Ruth] Yes on the southwest side of the Court Street Bridge is the old National Casket Company. And that's still referred to as the National Casket Company. It's kind of a landmark in the Rochester area, but that is the casket company that made the casket for President Grant when he died. [Host] President Grant and Grant's Tomb down in New York City. [Ruth] That's right and [Host] It was a famous well-known casket company. [Ruth] Yes, it was [Host] Of course, ah [Ruth] and they did handwork and it was very good and there is a cane that to this day we don't know what became of it. There was a cane made from the leftover wood of Grant's casket and it was presented to the then mayor of Rochester. And we don't know what became of that cane. [Host] Well, a that's a business that's not subject to Depression, obviously. [Ruth] No, it isn't only a modification of the wood that they used. [Host] [laughs:] Now ah also across the street from us where we're standing now. [Ruth] Yes. [Host] Is the old Lehigh Valley ah

Railroad Depot. [Ruth] Yes. [Host] That crossed the River somewhere to the south of here and came up the bank of the river and is now being used as a barbecue or something of that sort. [Ruth] That's right, primarily in the last century railroads were very very heavy in this area. Railroads, of course, could be built almost anywhere and they were taking a lot of business from the Erie Canal. [Host] They certainly were. [Ruth] And [Host] The minute you had railroads the Erie Canal started to decline.[Ruth] That's right and it took [Host] Because it was so much faster. [Ruth] That's That's right and it also took a different type of freight. Because people were able to get so much faster and more comfortably where they were going on the railroads. That was their preferred mode of travel. [Host] That would have begun about 1845? Somewhere around there. [Ruth] About about that time. Yes, when the Auburn Railroad came through Rochester. [Host] Ah and And ah so the Erie Canal continued to have some ah commercial value. [Ruth] Oh, yes because of the heavy goods. [Host] Civil War, I'm sure. [Ruth] Yes, Yes [Host] Because of the bulk that ah could be carried on the Erie Canal [Ruth] That's right. [Host] Very cheaply. [Host] Late [?] much more cheaply than on the railroads. [Ruth] Hm mm. That's right. [Host] There must have been a lot of

[Host] Railroads that came through here because by then Rochester was a real business center. [Ruth] That's right the [Host] impact railroads[?][Indistinct] [Ruth] Baltimore and Ohio, Lehigh Valley, Erie station all also a the New York Central all of those came through Rochester and it becomes a very geneological study to look at the history of the railroads in the last century there were a lot of mergers and new start-ups and buyouts. So the tracks changed their names and their uses frequently in the last century. [Host] Well, Ruth Rosenberg Naparsteck you've given us a great tour of a number of the important sites here in Rochester. [Ruth] Hm mm. [Host] But we haven't talked about Rochester in general and I'd like to do that a little. For instance, can you think of what what episodes or what incidents were absolutely germinal in the development of this area? [Ruth] Oh I would say definitely [Host] Obviously water power had a tremendous impact. [Ruth] That's true. And definitely, Colonel Rochester's foresight in putting the Main Street Bridge's state road through Rochester and also the Erie Canal route which they had to

anticipated to have through this area because of that the Route 90 following the same route. And in the last century many of the more famous people in the more famous movements like the Abolitionist Movement-- many of the famous speakers who came through here and also the Women's Movement all of those followed this route coming through Rochester partly because of the foresight of putting the Erie Canal through which is equivalent to our Interstate 90, and, as you know, when you do conventions today you want things to be accessible to other cities. [Host] Obviously Rochester was part of the burned over District [Ruth] Definitely. [Host] of New York where it was so many ideas got their start. [Ruth] Definitely. And it must have been a very vital community in the first half of the 19th century. [Ruth] Oh, so many ideas not only germinated in Rochester or the Rochester area, but also. became very fiery in this area; there were a lot of debates, a lot of different ideas and actually as conservative as Rochester is they encouraged those different ideas. And they they often came together at Corinthian Hall and other convention centers in the last

century and discussed those, but if I had to look at some of the things that we carry today more than events, I would look at the diversity of our population, as well as, the diversity of our industries those are the things that have carried us through the Depression periods. And, the diversity of our population is what we celebrate today. Partly because [Host] Also the arrival of George Eastman's germinal. [Ruth] That's that's true. Yes, but you know when when he had his idea he was one among many who had ideas. Some take off, some don't-- some of those ideas became support industries for major industries like we have with Bausch & Lomb and Xerox and ah Eastman's Kodak. [Host] Um, Rochester is a vital community still. It seems to me anyway a little like an oasis in the vast wasteland of Western New York. Ah ah, As long as, we have the skilled workforce we've got here. As long as, we have the substantial industry [Ruth] Hm mm. [Host] and the high tech industry that's available to us.

It should have a a promising future even though water power is not likely to play a large part a part in it. [Ruth] Well actually water power may not, but the River itself will and so will The Erie Canal. -- Our development today with the Vision 2000 plan for the City actually is following the River and re-orienting all of its vision towards towards the River, down at the Brown's Race area we're putting in the festival tent in those events areas and along the River and Canal on the west side we're developing an area for a marina. So the River will still play an important part just in a different way. [Host] And in a traditional way that ah people will look ah back on and see it is a part of the community in the sense that ah that probably no other single force is.[Ruth] That's true. Yes, ah I think the geography plays an important role in defining us. We think of ourselves as east or west siders as being north or south of the Genesee River. And it defined in the last century what kinds of goods we we could produce and what materials

our homes would be made from and even what kinds of things we could grow in our areas. You talk about Rochester also being sort of an oasis here, but we depend so much on the lands around it [Host] Surrounding area [Ruth] for agriculture and for animal products. And. And, more recently we are wrestling with the whole idea of suburbanization and how that that will go. It seems like a scary thing today, but looking at it historically, we have always been a city that grew and annexed and and continued to draw from the outside. What we are seeing today is a redefinition of what the City is --a sort of a metropolitan area today. [Host] Thank you so much for the history you've given us. [Ruth] Thank you. [Host] Thank you for the vision. And the ah opportunity to learn what's important about this community that means so much to us all. [Ruth] Thank you very much. [Host] Ladies and Gentlemen our guest has been Ruth Rosenberg Naparsteck. Excuse me - The City Historian. Ah, we're very happy to have had

you. With us for this interesting tour of Rochester. Thank you for watching. Barber Conable. [Ruth] Thank you.[Music] If you'd like a copy of this program send $19.95 to WXXI. Post Office Box 21 Rochester, New York 1 4 6 0 1.