Speaking of Rochester; 103; Joan De R. O'Byrne

How do you do ladies and gentlemen. I'm Barber Conable and the program is Speaking of Rochester wherein we will explore the past the present and the future of the Rochester area and what it means to the people who live here. Our guest on the program today is is Joan O'Byrne well-known Rochester lawyer a native Californian graduated from one of the fine California law schools the University of California law schools and went into the Peace Corps for a couple of years ah then came here as part of Action for a Better Community a part of the overall War on Poverty and worked in legal services as the head of that program building up eventually to a staff of some 70 people serving the underprivileged here in Rochester who did not have access to legal services other than through her organization. Welcome to the program Joan.

Thank you, Barber. It's a pleasure to have you. I think first of all we ought to talk a little about the Peace Corps since both you and I have had some international experience in that respect. I assume that it was your idealism that brought you into it. You spent most of your time in Africa didn't you and [Joan]I did the central Africa, East Central Africa.[Host]:E.Central Africa and that was generally a British colony as was it? [Joan]: Well yes I was in the Federation of Rhodesia Niaslaan which I believe you know something about Northern Rhodesia.And ah [Host]:And that's called Zambia now [Joan]: And Zambia now it was then Northern Rhodesia and then it went from a federation to a Commonwealth to independence; so that all happened in the two years that I was there. [Host] It's a sobering experience for a young person to find him his or herself in that kind of an environment and it must be an introduction to the realities of life that brings you up rather short doesn't it? [Joan]:Well sobering, disenchanting I might add. [Host]:Disenchanting only because Africa was so far behind the rest of the world in terms of development, in terms of the quality of life its people is that right? [Joan] Well

it wasn't so much the poverty that got me down; it was the politics that got me down. It was the murder and the mayhem and the actual breakdown of the rule of law. I think for any lawyer it was a miserable experience. [Host]:Well were you there at the end of the colonial period?[Joan]:Yes I I was there at as I said we went through Federation status then we went through commonwealth status and then we went to Independence. [Host]:And unfortunately the people who lead the liberation movements during the colonial period are not necessarily the best people to govern a country always. [Joan]: No no they're not and you mentioned something as we were talking to before we started the program and that is that ah. You know people have a way of dealing with the opposition. And in our the country that I was serving in the one way to deal with the opposition was to just murder them or physically remove them and other places they handle a different way.So that that's always I think difficult for an idealist. [Host]: Well a transition in a backward society is a difficult thing to accomplish without a good deal of

violence isn't it? Well, I suppose, but it was not only armed conflict in the sense of civil war but it's just like the. What I'm saying is that the whole rule of law broke down, so that anybody became fair game. It didn't it wasn't warring tribes; it wasn't warring political interest groups. It was just everybody was a target. Well in some ways did that prepare you though for for the later part of your career? [Joan]: Well it made me tough. I think you know you have to be though, [Host]: Made you tough. [Joan]: made me very tough just another thing to made me a little bit tougher. Ah then then I had been before which you know going into the legal profession in the first instance I think is a toughening experience. I think for a woman in those days in 1960 it was tough. [Host]:Well let's talk about that a little. Back in those days there weren't many women lawyers were there? [Joan]: Well there was one in my class and three in the school. [Host]: Now, half the class of most law schools is

are women. [Joan]: 60% not only half, but even more than that. [Host]: So you were a pioneer in a real sense of the word. [Joan]: Ah might say so, [laughs] I'm a little bit embarrassed talking about this I've got to say that because I never though of myself as that. Because I'm not a pioneer I don't think of myself as a pioneer. On the other hand there weren't anybody else of my gender there I guess I was, but I it's embarrassing to to me. To me now to. I mean, I don't think that I'm any different from anyone else. I just kind of had a different career and. [Host]: and well maybe we'll come back to this, but I know that you know I'm interested in the people in this program and in seeing where they've come from and what kind of experiences they've had because lots of times it speaks to the particular types of leadership they've given in the community. [Joan]:You mean from New Deal Roosevelt Democrat to voting for you? [Host] [laughs] I'm talking about. [Joan]: Do you mean that the transition? No not that transition. [Host]: No no. You came here then as part of the War on Poverty and the fact. [Joan]:Well I came here. My husband took a

job here so I in a sense I'm a camp follower, you know, sort of a coattails person. That's how I got here I never would have thought to ever come here. It would be I hate to say it now because I have adopted this is my home, but it might have been the last place in the world that I would come. [Host]: And probably you didn't like it very much when you got here did you? [Joan]:I did not like it at all when I first came. [Host]: Now you're a Rochesterian now all the way. [Joan]: now. Now I think I've yes. I have a city or a house in the city and Yeah I consider myself a Rochesterian now. [Host]: I think were always privileged also to have people with different points of view come into our community and help the mix. It ah it ah contributes ah to the our understanding of ourselves. Um Well, when you got here Rochester was in some turmoil wasn't it? Yes you had just had the riots of '64 and I as I said before when we were talking apart from out of the out of here out of context of this program I came the day Martin Luther King was assassinated so also was.[Host]: That was a very auspicious day you

[Joan]: No no wasn't a it was not you're right. And ah I came here and looked around for a job in the first thing I found out when I got here which was totally unlike California was if you weren't a member of the right political party you couldn't get a job in the District Attorney's office in government or anything of that kind. [Host]:It was different in California. [Joan]:It was very yes it was very different. They had nobody. The first thing they asked you when I went to get a job at the DA's office and I think Jack Littlen[?] was a D.A. and then I and I also went to the public or the didn't have a public defender at the time; they may have just had a public defender. I think Charlie Willis was. Judge Willis was.The first thing they asked me was what political party I belong to us.[Host]: Oh I see. And I was very offended by that. So I told SDS and that sort of sealed my fate. [Laughter] I was a gonner. I was gonner at that point. [Host]: That was controversial at that stage.[Joan]: So I had to I had to create my own. [Host]: Students for a Democratic Society.

Yes [Host]: Yes very good. [Joan]: Yes. [Host]:Well you had been in legal aid in California and so it was quite [Joan]: Well [Host]: natural for you to move in the legal service. Well I no I wasn't I was in Legal Services in California I came I came back from the Peace Corps in this thing called the War on Poverty had started. [Host]: Umhm. [Joan]: And a so I got a job in the Central Valley in California and I basically worked in migrant camps so I had did not have an urban background when I came here. So this was something different. [Host]: Would you like to describe the Rochester community as you saw it then as you found it? I thought it was ah very conservative. A la Barber Conable kinda Frank Horton was a little bit different. Different kind of animal from you I thought although he was a Republican. He seemed more of a kind of a John Lindsay type. And I thought the it was very conservative both a socially and politically and [Host]: But there was a large black community. [Joan]: there was a large black population which were basically unskilled work force type.

They lived in a particular [Host]: Mostly came from the south [Joan]: Yes mostly came from the south. Yes. [Host]:Shortly before that time you arrived. Yes. Mostly came from the south. [Host]:And so they were ill equipped for the opportunities that Rochester had to offer which were largely high tech opportunities weren't they? [Joan]: Yes.[host]: Alright. [Host]: I I remember having the impression when I first started representing Rochester in Congress that a a that the ah the white community here didn't know a black community existed in Rochester. [Joan] Ah yeah. [Joan]: Yes, that's well a. There was an element of the of the of the one of the major confrontations I had at the very beginning was with our former mayor. And a he was a lawyer and he represented a lot of a what I call slum lords in other words having [Host]: You're talking you're talking about Mayor Ryan. [Joan]: Yes talking about Mayor Ryan. And I remember that we butted heads at the very beginning and a I was surprised quite frankly and shocked that he had an attitude like that that since I mean with low standard housing that he, you know,

know seemed so defensive of his position when there was clear that there was huge ghettos here. And with the housing codes that were being violated and that sort of thing and he was the mayor of the city. [Host]: Well. [Joan]:So that surprised me. [Host]: Well I a had the impression that the war on poverty activity in the various organizations spawned by that including yours. Ah did a good deal in the way of of bringing people together at that time. A The the poor people sat down with the community leaders they had to and in groups like Action for a Better Community. And a they dev they learned from each other to a certain extent. Certainly, it was good for Rochester to have a the poor people realize that the community leaders couldn't couldn't push a button and make their troubles all go away a.

It wasn't just a matter of being unwilling to help them. It was a matter of requiring more than just the pushing of a button to change the quality of their life. And then, of course, for the leadership community to understand that there was a block of people here who had aspirations very different from their own and a and a had a long ways to go. That meant that the community was likely to activate itself. [Joan]:But there was a lot of conflict amongst the, you know, amongst the blacks population themselves. I mean there were different leaderships. There were different. You know they were more some were more radical than others and some wanted this and the different agenda and you know so it was hard to sort of, you know, it wasn't like you're trying to portray that it was like them and white and black. There were all kinds of variations in between and it was very hard to get a to get a get a consensus. Even my own board, I had a board that was composed of I don't know 20 or 25 people. And they were it was an integrated

board in the sense that there were black whites there were, you know, all Hispanic different but everybody had a different agenda. So I mean it was ah. You know this crazy, [laughs]hard to get. [Host]: Not unlike the liberation movement in the in a in a Africa.[Joan]: Well, it was yes it was like I mean it it just ah there were all kinds of groups so there was a more radical group which I tend to be more tended to be more in line with then there was the Action for a Better Community group which tend to be the more establishment middle class type black I call it. So there there were different variations of that so. [Host]: Well did you did you see the you see the situation evolve over the period of time that you were working in the in the legal services? [Joan]: Well, evolve, you know, it was like you'd go after the slum lord so you have rents. So there's one - a couple of ways of doing it. There was the doing ah the, you know, defending against evictions and there was rent strikes and there were more activist types of of conduct which I

which I thought were you know clearly the better way of going at it than trying to do it as you know I mean being a lawyer as you are doing it the legal way is the slowest. I mean Justice does pursue with lame foot and believe me it was pretty lame then too. It's pretty lame now. So it it was a slow methodical. By and large inadequate way to accomplish change. [Host]: But while you were doing this you used the legal system fairly extensively.[Joan]: Well I did but I got disgusted with it like everybody else. I mean it was too slow, it was too unmoving. It was too reactive. I mean it wasn't reactive enough and you know one of the one of the sobering, very sobering experiences I had in the mid '70's when I was at legal services and then we ah kind of branched out did a lot of the draft the anti war kind of thing, but was in the middle of my living room working on plans with the Weathermen to blow up a seal manufacturing and processing plant in North Carolina.

And I'm like a lawyer. And I'm like in courts every day. How did I get myself to this stage and at that point in time I realized I was going the wrong way and I got out of legal services. [Host]: Ah ha.That was the reason you did. [Joan]: I did. did I got out because I was so consumed with the inadequacy of the process even though I was a part of it. I was so consumed by the inadequacy of the process that it was radicalizing me to an extent that. I just felt that everything that I had promised that I would obey including the Constitution. I I was suddenly [Host]: getting in trouble. [Joan]: I was in trouble. I was in trouble. Big trouble. [Host]: But but you took a case all the way to the Supreme Court [Joan]:I did. Yes that was a [Host]: having to do with residency and that was actually it was [Joan]: Yes yes. [Host]: It was a one of those cases that changed that the law all over the country. [Joan]: Yes it did. Yes it had the effect of changing residency requirements all over the country with respect to admission to the bar with respect to oh why entitlement programs: everything. It was a wide far reaching. [Host]: Regardless of your own

involvement and your own concern about yourself here in this process. Did you see any evolution occur a here in Rochester as a result of the the work during that terribly troublesome period? [Joan]: Well, I think yes. I mean things are definitely better than they were there. I mean at that time point in time they're better for the people that are recipients of of welfare grants; they're better for students. I don't know if the schools are any better, but at least they're a little more integrated. I think there are other areas in other entitlement; the housing to some extent has improved vastly from what it was when I first came. And you know there've been those improvements. [Host]: And we're dealing with a whole new generation of course. [Guest]: And we're dealing with a yes totally. When we first met Barber we were just talking about that you were like in your 40s and I was in my 30s.

Now you told me you were 75 yesterday and I'm 61. So yes. [laughs] Things are different. Things are different.[laughs] But but the change you'd say generally been good hasn't it? [Joan]: A yes I think the change is good, yes. [Host]:You didn't uh particularly like Rochester when you came here, how do you feel about it now? Oh man. I I told you, i the Country Club of Rochester asked me to speak at their club on on Wednesday so I guess I've arrived. Don't you think? [Host]: Well I think that must be but a but a but also [Joan]: I like it. [Joan]: I like it a lot.are you enjoying yourself? [Host]: Ok that's the question. [Joan]: I like it a lot I even like the weather. [Host]: Well Rochester very self-contained community. [Joan]: Yeah. Yes I like it. [Host]: And one that uh one that uh has its own values and uh it's easy to become part of the crowd here. [Joan]: It It's been I I love it here. I love the weather, I like the people, I like the institutions. You're a lone practitioner in the law [Joan]: Yes. [Host]:You don't belong to one of those big corporate law firms. [Joan]: oh no no no no [Host]: um [Joan]: they wouldn't have me in [Host]: um [Host]: The legal profession has changed a good deal here too hasn't it? [Joan]: Uh - Radically. [Host]: Well tell us about

Tell us about that. [Joan]: OK. [Host]: Because the legal profession is a very important part of the professional life of the community of course. [Joan]: It's not only that, but I'll tell you if you didn't they don't always you know there are millions of lawyer jokes out there right. OK so, but if you need a lawyer if you're in trouble where do you go. You go to a lawyer. And too if your institutions are in trouble what are you doing? you're looking to change them legally. But at any rate a yeah there's been a major change in in the legal profession here and I think one of the one of the major change that I see you see a number of women that are now practicing law. [Host]: When you went to law school as you said there were just a few.[Joan]: Just just a few [Host] Tiny few. [Joan]A tiny few. [Host]: and now there are a great many ones. [Joan]: Alot. Yes.[Host]: Now you were a pioneer in the sense that you had to fight your way into this men's club. Yes. [Host]:What about the women today? [Joan]:Well they don't have to fight. They're there accepted. [Joan]: They're accepted in the club. [Host]: and many of them are very good lawyers of course. A do they do you find them a a

willing to carry their full burdens as the [Joan]: Well I find them a a [Host]: Officers of the court? Well a lot of them are young because the generation coming up is that all that group that we're talking about the third at Harvard and 50 percent here and 60 percent there I mean they're like lawyers. Ten years of practice or about that. So I call them baby lawyers in that sense. I mean really the first 10 years I don't know what you really know, but anyway. [Host] As I recall as a young lawyer I didn't know much.[Laughs] No but you think you know everything that's unfortunate. But anyway a lot of people get hurt that way. way. [laughs] But anyway. Well I. You were asking me about this off kind of off the camera and sometimes I say things and I don't want it to be taken in the wrong way when I say these things. But I think that a lot of women whine a lot about why they can't do this and why they can't do that and they haven't made this and they have made that and they don't get this and they don't get that.

[Joan] And [Host]: Do you mean that there's a strong sense of discrimination out there? [Joan]: They say so. I mean they whine about it or they. or they moan about it. Ah [Host]: You kinda took such things head on when you came out of the legal profession [Joan] Right [Host]as a men's club didn't you? [Joan]:Right. [Host]: So you feel that you've perhaps done a lot of their work for them and they shouldn't be whinning is that it?[laughs] Well I think if they're dissatisfied with something rather than you know trying to just explain it away by some simplistic way like they don't want women in this area or they. You know it's because I'm a woman that this happened. Uh I think they should look at whether or not they've prepared whether or not they've done their homework whether or not they're good at what they do; whether or not they're in the right place doing the right thing as opposed and an some other inadequacy other than the fact some sort of gender reason. Have you ever worried yourself with the issue of women's rights? [Joan]:You well I mean [Host]: You've obviously worried about the problems the rights of poor people.[Joan]: Well Barber this is the problem

with somebody like me and you put I mean I think you you saw this when we were talking earlier. I'm an individualist I and I don't like organizations. I've never liked organizations a you know I've been in organizations because you can't survive if you're not. You mean you know you have to be a member of the bar. You have to when I was in college you had to be in a sorority. [Host: [Indistinct] in society to some extent [Joan]:and that is what I said I mean to some extent and to be an individualist or to be different is to it is is to bring upon yourself a a a reaction that most people can't tolerate or don't want to tolerate. They don't want to be on the outside. They want to be on the inside. [Host]: But to be an individualist is to be a moving part in society isn't it? I should think there'd be a good deal of a. comfort and pleasure in knowing that you have been part of a process of change and that you are on the front edge of it. Well. I don't ever see myself like to see myself as doing my own thing and getting

where I want to go and if somebody's in the way just bulldozing over 'em so to speak.[Laughs] I mean you know.[laughs] [Host]: Well. [Joan]:Instead of dancing around.[Host]: Joan Joan, that makes you controversial. [Joan]: I'd rather the bulldozer approach [Host]:Joan that makes you controversial, but it doesn't make you any less less desirable from a [Laughs] social point of view as a [Joan]: Oh. Thank you. [Host]: as part of the moving edges of society. [Joan]: Oh well I have friends.[Laughs] [Host]: Well now you like Rochester. You have seen tremendous change since you came here. [Joan]: Yes, I do. [Host]:What do you think lies in the future for a place like Rochester? We have we consider ourselves. [Joan]: Well [Host] ourselves to some extent in an oasis in the vast wasteland of western New York because of our high tech and our relatively high a incomes here. [Joan]: I think that's true by the way. [Host] Um a Do you think that will continue, we have a highly skilled labor force here that spawned a great many small businesses that are um a contributing to the diversity of the Rochester community.

Well I think it depends remember the Brookings Institute? They did [Host]: Yes. [Joan]: that big thing here you know I was on that with the you know hoard of thousands not thousands but there are about 50 people on it. And we tried to project 20 years in the future. [Host]:Yeah [Joan]: That was the whole idea of the program. [Host]: Sometimes a worthwhile thing to do. [Joan]:We did that. We met for months coming up with where are we going to be 20 years from now. And [Host]: what did you conclude?[Joan]: And the greatest minds in Rochester you know a a applied themselves to the very question you're [laughs] asking me. With the assistance of these people from the Brookings Institute and we broke down into these small groups and I don't know you might have been in that yourself, were you in that? [Host]:No, I don't think I was I'm not I'm not a think tank type. [Joan]: Not a think tank. Well I didn't think I was either, but anyway it forced one to go into a think tank mode. So anyway we we had 5 areas that we came out with. One was economics of course that's the one you're talking about. The other areas that became a real source of concern for the group

was education and that's proved to be the case. [Host]: Education continues to be a problem, but it's a problem for all of America too, [Joan]: It is. [Host]: It's not just Rochester; do you think we have special problems here? [Joan]: We had at that time we had deseg a basically a segregated a segregated system. And basically you know the statistics were horrible with respect to minorities and others. And we saw it getting worse instead of better and to some extent that's been the case uh [Host] Well there's less [Host]: segregation now. [Joan]:Yes, but there's worse results educationally in terms of testing and a and where kids actually are. [Host]: All right well we we're beginning to run out of time here now. What were the 5. [Joan] Ok. OK well there was education, there was economics, a I can't at this point. There was there was some concern for social trends. Ok let's let's look at the area I'm in. All I do is divorce work. I mean 85 percent of my work is divorce! [Host]: There's a there are a lot of divorces nowadays [Joan]: and that I didn't start. Right. [Host]: It's a societal problem of some demensions. [Joan]: and I didn't

start out that way it's ending up that way. And that's what's out there on the street if you're a sole practitioner that's what you did; in the '80s I did a lot of criminal work [Host]: There are social problems then, as well as, educational problems. [Joan]: There's all those social problems that go with you know with with a you know You know the family that's been -- we saw that as a problem: the breakdown of the family. [Host] Well I guess what you're saying is that we can't be complacent about our future. We've got all the problems of everybody else. [Joan]: We've got all the problems of everybody else. [Host]:I we have we have the resources to deal with them though. [Joan]: Right yep. You have money here a lot of money here. [Host]: And that's worth something.[Joan] That's right. It's worth something. Is there anything else you'd like to say about the future of Rochester? [Joan] A No I I hope I'm going to be around to enjoy the future. I think a [Host]: You think it will be enjoyable future then? [Joan]:Well I hope so I'm working at it. But you know one tends to make their own life as an individual life. I don't expect anybody to do anything for me. I expected to do it myself and make my own life [Host]: Ah ha. [Joan]: and do the best I can with what I've got. [Host]: That sounds a little individualistic too Joan and I must say.

Well thank you very much for being on the program with us today. It's been a pleasure to have you our guest, ladies and gentlemen has been Joan O'Byrne a well-known Rochester lawyer One who's been on the cutting edge of change for a long time and who is now apparently a quite satisfied Rochesterian although she's a native Californian. A we thank you for a your comments and a [Joan]: Thank you. And a we hope you'll continue to enjoy to the Rochester community and to be one of our one of our pioneers. [Joan]: Thank you nice to be here. Thank you for being with us ladies and gentleman. If you'd like a copy of this program send $19.95 to WXXI. Post Office Box 21 Rochester, New York 1 4 6 0 1.