The Rochester I Know; 120; Thomas Hawks

Tone Opening Music Opening Music WXXI presents the Rochester I Know, a series of interviews with notable residents of Monroe County and contributors to this area's rich history. Your host is William Pearce. (host)Hello and welcome to the Rochester I Know. Our guest today is Mr. Thomas Hawks, the former President and Chairman of the Rochester Savings Bank for 23 years. In addition to being one of the area's most well-known bankers. He has been an active civic leader for his entire adult life in this community. Tom - welcome to the Rochester I Know. We know you know a lot about this town,(guest)thanks Bill (host)we're only going to touch I believe on just part of it today but nevertheless we'll take advantage of every minute we have. Your

family goes back in banking many many years your father and your grandfather. Where was your grandfather from and how did you get started in banking. (guest)Well my granddaddy. My grandfather was associated with the Rochester Savings Bank and as a matter of interest he and Mr. Eastman were on the Rochester Savings Bank at the same time, and I remember stories of during noon hours when Mr. Eastman would make many of his experiments in the small garden just in back of the Rochester Savings Bank during lunch hours so he and my grandfather were good friends, and while Mr. Eastman left of course to to start the Eastman Kodak Company, my grandfather continued in the Rochester Savings Bank but I think their friendship was of long standing. (host)When was this approximately the time? (guest)Well I would, this would be 19. In the early part of this. (host)Turn it on the turn of the century. Did George Eastman your

grandfather were what clerks or? (guest)They were they were senior clerks and tellers and then they move themselves up. (host)Where was the bank then? (guest)The bank was at the corner of Fitzhugh and Main which is the same location as our present West Main Office,present time (host)And it had a garden at the time? (guest)It had a garden behind, that's right, before the bank building was ah was expanded (host)And George Eastman took a long lunch to conduct his experimental? (guest) Well I don't know if it was a long lunch or not but at least he he, he conducted many of his experiments back there and of course those stories have been handed down through the employees of the bank for years and years and they and they still roam the halls of our buildings today. And then my father was ah, ah was ah president of the Rochester trust and safe deposit company which, ah merged with the Lincoln Alliance Bank to ah to form then was the Lincoln Rochester Trust Company.

And then I was fortunate enough to go on the board of the Rochester Savings Bank in 1949 and to become its president in 1951. (host)You became president in 1951 as I recall you were the youngest banking president ever at age 35 in this community? (guest)Well uh that's what I was told I've never researched it but ah that was mentioned. I think Ray Ball told me that he was 36 when he came in to be president of the Lincoln Alliance Bank and Trust Company. (host)So he was one of your contemporaries at that? (guest)Well that's true I had the great privilege when I first went into the banking business in Rochester to be associated with those deans of banking like Ray Ball of the Lincoln, ah Lincoln Rochester, Emmett Funuken of Security Trust, Elmer Milamen of Central Trust and my own immediate predecessor Alan Stephens of the Rochester Savings Bank. And of course banking was

different then than it is today. I uh am interested in telling people that when I went into the bank, went on the Bank Board in 1949, I think the interest rate that was paid on deposits then was 1 and a half percent. When I went in in as president in 1951 I think the interest rates that we paid on deposits was then about 2% and things, of course, as we all know have changed dramatically. (host)What would a home mortgage have cost me in 1949?. (T. Hawks) Probably ah, at those anywhere from 4 to 6% which is quite a far cry from where they are today. But I remember that, ah ah up until the late spring of 1951 it had been a policy of the Federal Reserve. Board to support the government bond market so that the market value of all government securities was at par or above.

Three months after I went in as President, the Federal Reserve changed its policy and what they claim, they pulled the plug on the government bond market. And of course at that time interest rates as they went up, the value of government bonds went well below. (host)You had no advance warning of that? No I certainly didn't, and was a matter of fact the Fed couldn't have made any advance warning because it would have shown it's hand, and it would have of the, the market would have been chaos at that time. But also then, I think one of the differences in the banking today as against banking in those days is that the commercial banks were not actively seeking savings accounts. The savings banks and the savings and loan associations, but more particularly in New York State the savings banks, were originally developed to provide a safe place for the small saver to keep his or her money. They did it on the geographical

basis, on a group basis that's why you have such a ah names as the Mechanic's Savings Bank, the Seamen's Savings Bank, ah or the Bowery Savings Bank in New York ,the East New York or the ah East River. But as time went on particularly through the ah, end of the late 50s and early 60s the commercial banks became much more interested in savings accounts and they were beginning in New York City particularly. They started to promote those very very energetically, and ah at that point why of course the competition between savings and commercial banks ah became much more keen. (host)Banking changed in this community considerably ah. some years ago when many of the New York City banks opened branches. (T.Hawks)That is true and of course that was when

Branch, when ah state branching legislation was changed and and ah permitted um a statewide banking and we do have and have had as you know the Citibank here The Chase, The Chemical, Manny Hanny which has changed the competitive climate here in Rochester. (host)The savings banks have changed considerably to and they're coming closer, (T.Hawks)Savings banks have changed and they have been giving, been given many more powers than ever had before so that now, they really can provide most of the services that commercial banks can provide. and I personally predict that at some time or other we will have a monolithic banking structure and legislation which will permit, savings and commercial banks to provide the same services and also

legislation which will permit the merging of savings and commercial banks. But that's as I see it today. (host)Tom when you were president of the Rochester Savings Bank back in the early 50s there were only a few other banks in the area and I think you remembered some of your some of your so called peer group at that time who were heads of other banks. The community was probably smaller then. And is is it true that the decisions were easier to come by in the community at that time than they are today? (T. Hawks)Yes, I would I would certainly think so because ah particularly as it relates to ah, support of ah, civic, cultural and educational institutions by the banks ah this was done through a clearing house association, ah that very closely knit organization has become much more loose in ah the recent past for reasons that I won't go into this afternoon, but a yes there was I think a um

if not a closer feeling at least it ah, decisions could be made ah, by contacting fewer people than perhaps is today. (host)The feeling seems to be that there's a leadership in the community was much stronger then that today, we the leaders aren't there is it because (T.Hawks) No I don't think I agree with you on that score not by a long shot. No I think the leadership we had strong leadership then, if you're referring only to well if you're referring to banking or if you're referring to the total community (host)Community wide leadership. (T.Hawks) Community wide leadership I think we are blessed with tremendous leadership today and always have been because I believe ah, that that those of us who um have been in Rochester and lived in Rochester for a great many years and have seen the examples that have been set by some of our ah by the men and women who have gone

before us. I don't like to select names, but I just off the top of my head people like Gilbert McCurdy, Herb Eisen, Howard Herbert Winn, Jim Gleason ah men of that a generation followed by such great people as I've mentioned Ray Ball, Emmertt Funuken, and Elmer Milleman in the banking, Jean Hargrave and ah um others who have been ah great leaders come down another generation and you come into the Mercer Breughlers in that group and ah Joe Wilson and I think today we are blessed with as strong community leadership as we have ever been. (host)Well you've destroyed that myth there in very short order.(Laughs).(T.Hawks)Well I I I have I feel very strongly about. We are fortunate. (host)You've been ah, you've been the head of many local community social

organizations. The Civic Music Association which is now the RPO, the United Fund and 30 or 40 more. It's just, it's endless not only local, but state-wide. I don't know if you've got more satisfaction out of one or the other but it occurs to me that the civic Music Association now the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra is one of the main cultural organizations in this community and you headed that up during many,(T.Hawks) Well, yes.(host) many years and I wonder if if you could dwell for a minute on the development of that organization how you sought. (T.Hawks) Well. (host) out then and now. (T. Hawks))Well as I think many people know that was organization was spawned by, by Mr. Eastman's interest and, of course it was a volunteer organization that was going to sponsor the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra for many years known as the Civic Music Association. During the time that I was ah most active in the ah Civic Music Association, not only did the organization

manage and and provide the Rochester Philharmonic with its wherewithall, but it also had a very very extensive artist series and that artist series um was ah so successful that the profits, or the excesss of income over expense relating to that activity. (host)There'd never been nonprofit in that. (T.Hawks) That's right ah, it(Laughs) was ah was able to offset ah any deficit with respect to the a to the Philharmonic. Times have changed, ah ah with the escalation of prices, of wages, umm CMA has found itself along with all of the other major orchestras in the country, ah in a financial squeeze. Ah, but great effort has been made and is

being made to raise additional endowment funds from which earnings can be used to help offset the the ah gap between the box office receipts and the actual costs. (host)In this sesquicentennial year you're optimistic about the future of the Rochester Philharmonic? (T.Hawks)Yes I am. I am very optimistic about it, there are men and women who are dedicated ah, to its success and are working ah long hard hours and not only the paid staff from Tony Dechario right on down, but the hundreds of volunteers, thousands of volunteers that are involved in it. You mentioned a, a moment ago the, the Community Chest which is now the united, the United Fund or the United Way. Um I remember that when I was president of, the years I was president of the Chest back in the mid and latter part of the 60s when

we had a tremendous amount of pressure brought on the Chest by Metro Act which as some will remember was a very active organization act socially active organization and ah (host)We might back up a little on that because Metro Act was formally what, Friends of Fight? (T.Hawks) Yeah I was the (host)When the Fight organization (T. Hawks)that's right (host)was formed after the riots. (T.Hawks)That's right (host)and there was an organization of Friends of Fight which became Metro Act and Metro Act felt very strongly that ah that the users of service ah should have a larger say and how the dollars are allocated, the Fund dollars, The United Fund dollars how they were allocated. And there was a lot to be said for this, but we had to be very careful that by, that we didn't go too far

and destroy the confidence of the givers, because our community chest and now United Way has always had and an enviable reputation. Per capita giving in Rochester is is the highest if not (host)Is what? (T.Hawks)one of the highest, if not the highest, of any city of comparable size. And we feel that that the success of raising dollars here was due in large part to the confidence that the donors had in the operation of the Chest and the fact that the dollars would be properly and effectively spent. Well, I'm happy to say that ah that we gave this whole question of Chest organization a great deal of thought, and during the succeeding ah 3 or 4 years which would be in the early 70s ah we did do a major restructuring of the ah United Way, bringing together under one umbrella the whole

function of fundraising of um evaluation of our participating agencies and the allocation of the dollars. And I think that today our United Fund is even stronger than it has been in the past. It has a great leadership, executive leadership in Ted Moore and his staff and it has ah outstanding volunteer support. (host)Tom youv'e ah you've now ah spanned a period you know as a president of a bank or a member of a bank from the late 40s, ah this is 1984 ah seen a couple decades of change in the Rochester area. Is anything occurred to you about that change, where we're going or where the community is going? Is it is it coming back to the city?

Is it moving further out a? (T.Hawks)There's no question what you say Bill there has been a great change in all areas. Perhaps ah 1 of the greatest change is that a I don't believe is unique to Rochester, is the phenomenon of the migration population --migration out of the city. And this is one of the things that I believe all of us who are interested in our City of Rochester and the entire community of Monroe have a great concern about. And I think it is for that reason that as much effort is now being exerted through such organizations as the Rochester Downtown Development Corporation, of our Metro Center for the Arts working with city and county and other volunteer organizations to do what we can to improve the climate

within our central city, and to encourage more people to use the central city for their shopping, for their nightly entertainment, and for residence. I've had a great deal of ah of fun really in the last ah four years, being Chairman of the Metro so-called, Metro Center commission. (host)We've talked too much about some of these positions you've had in the past but actually you're you're still active right up until now with your interest in the metro center, (T.Hawks) Right. (host)for the arts which includes that area around the Eastman Theater, the new YMCA, and and other developments that are going in there. Ah Maybe you could just back up slightly and tell us how that came about? (T.Hawks) Alright. (Host) What was really the motivating force there? (guest)Well ah four or five years ago the Eastman School of Music had completed a very extensive survey of

the pros and cons of staying where it is on Gibbs street or moving out to the river campus. Fortunately for the City of Rochester the decision was to remain downtown, and the Eastman School of Music at the University of Rochester, of which it's a part uh instituted and completed a major re renovation and rebuilding of the entire buildings of the Eastman School of Music. The Eastman Kodak company contributed some two and a half to three million dollars for the complete renovation of the Eastman Theatre. When this was done that was a real identification by a major organization that the downtown area of Rochester has got to be maintained and hopefully improved. We knew at the time that there were a lot of undesirable merchant er uh (host)establishments.(Laughter) (T.Hawks)establishments, OK all right we call them

establishments in and around the Eastman Theater and it was felt that in consideration of what the Eastman School of Music had done and in the interests of of moving Rochester forward that an effort should be made to improve the entire area in and around the Eastman Theater for several blocks, and at that point the ah Metro or the cultural commission as it is legally known, ah was established for the purpose of carrying out a plan originally developed by Sasaki Associates, and I've had the pleasure of being chairman of that or had the pleasure of being chairman of that commission for 4 years, and I found the work extremely interesting. I think it's important for us to recognize that while the name originally was um

the cultural district, it has since been changed to Metro Center for the Arts, that that art the cultural arts was an important ingredient in consideration, but not the only one. (host)You want to hear a little more common appeal. (guest)We are interested in doing something that would bring people downtown, ah that would ah enliven and improve the quality of the merchandising and the stores and shops and boutiques that were in restaurants there were in that area. (host)Do you think that's happening now? (T.Hawks) Very definitely so because of the present time we have the new YMCA building completed, and ah even in the relatively short time that they have been open, I understand from them that their memberships have soared, the use of the YMCA is far beyond their wildest fondest

expectations. (host)Of course that brings people downtown. (guest)That brings people downtown. We have the new Metro Center garage, ah which is being used very extensively now, and, of course, we the entire area across from the Eastman Theater which is now demolished and and gives such a beautiful view of that lovely facade of the Eastman Theater the use of that core area and the large property on the north west corner of Main and Gibbs Street, Is being restudied a and we are very hopeful that in a matter of well, perhaps not months, but perhaps, but certainly not many years that we will have additional development on those key areas. Even today it's interesting what the development has

brought about, or the developments already been been accomplished that I've indicated, because we know that there are are more developers who are interested in acquiring parcels of land within the cut within Metro Center which is controlled by the Metro Center Commission and the commission is dealing with them on a regular basis. (host)Well that's only one example, Tom of the many organizations you provide leadership for in this area and I would not want to put you on the spot by asking you know which organization to get the most satisfaction out of, but I wouldn't like to end this um discussion without making sure that everyone listening knows the role that you played in make it possible for us to be here today. In 1965 - 66 I know that you, with our then President Harold Hacker with, you particularly were the

prime mover in raising some $450,000 on very short notice so that we could match state and federal monies to put channel 21 on the air. Whether that, whether you came to regret that or not I won't know but that is just one aspect of the leadership for Community Organizations that um (T. Hawks) But I want (Host)You provide(T.Hawks) to get by there where credit is due there and of course it was a great challenge to us and I was very happy to have a small part in it. I do want to give credit, however, to to Dr. A.K. Chapman who was then President of the Kodak Company because when I was asked to see if these dollars could be provided very promptly, Harold and I and I get 1 or 2 others I've forgotten, went to see Doctor Chapman at the Kodak Company. In those days he personally

interviewed ah for major contributions and he was so impressed with and excited about what these dollars could do that he authorized Kodak's gift. I think it was somewhere in the order of I think it was 20 to 25% of what we were looking for which is very substantial. (host)and then everyone else kind of came one line (T.Hawks) Then then we followed through with other major corporations. (host) On that upbeat note, Tom were going to end The Rochester I Know, our guest today has been Mr. Thomas Hawks for many years leading, still I think one of the leading banking individuals in this community, as well as, a community leader in all sorts of organizations. And ah join us next time I'm Bill Pearce. This is the Rochester I know. (music)

(narrator)For a VHS copy of those programs send 19.95. Plus three dollars and fifty cent shipping and handling to The Rochester I Know tape offer Post Office box 21 Rochester New York 1 4 6 0 1. Include a note with the name of our guest and the program number shown at the bottom of the screen.