The Rochester I Know; 124; Rev. Charles J. Lavery

[Tones & Opening Music] [host] The Reverend Charles J. Lavery chancellor of St. John Fisher College here in Rochester was president of the college for 22 years beginning in 1958. St. John Fisher grew considerably during his tenure. Enrollment went from 475 to over 3000 full and part time students. A respected spokesman for higher education at both the state and national levels, he serves on numerous boards and advisory groups. Join us today for the "Rochester I Know". Father Lavery, let's start off by you giving us a little glimpse of your childhood: where you were born and when, when you entered the priesthood, and so on. [guest] Thanks, Bill. Well I was born for history's sake on May the 1st 1915 in Toronto and grew up in Toronto in a very happy family with my father and mother and two brothers.

And I went through elementary school and high school in the University of Toronto at St. Michael's College my alma mater which is a part of the university as you know. And uh I had thought very much about becoming a priest and a teacher and I'm sure due to the impressions of the faculty with whom I dealt in high school and college and I for another reason too that St. Michael's was we always said the Notre Dame of Canada because of their hockey teams and I was greatly interested in hockey. So I thought of it in high school but any rate I went to college and took my degree in honor philosophy with the idea that if I should become a priest I would be saving time. So I did do that at the end of college, made the decision to enter the novitiate in 1937 and I finished that in 1938. I, humorously got three appointments in a week. My first was uh to the seminary and my second

was to Rochester, to Aquinas and I came here on a Thursday or Friday and lasted for one day in the school and got a phone call and said I was moved back to Toronto to St. Michael's College, my alma mater, to begin graduate studies theology to be a prefect in a dormitory. So that was the beginning of the life that then in a sense not as ended but has got me back in the dormitory now here. [host] So you actually came to Rochester [guest] in 1938 [host] in 1938 first to Aquinas High School. that's a little known fact. [guest] Yes, and then I had 2 years of graduate work in theology and came back here in 1940-41 and taught math and science which I had never anticipated. [Host]Again at Aquinas? [Guest] At Aquinas and probably a step in God's providence as I look back I was associated with Father Haffey at that time who had taught me in high school and college and he had me start a study club which brought in college students and high school students and to give them some ideas of philosophy and education and so on and so he was the one that

ultimately of course purchased the property for St. John Fisher College. So I studied. [Host]Before going any further, when was that? [Guest]Well that was in 1947. [Host] The property which is now St. John Fisher was purchased by Father Haffey [Guest] in 1947. [Host]I presume that's who had it all isn't it. [Guest]That's right. after. [Guest] But then I went back to Toronto was ordained a 1942 and then went to the University of Chicago in 1943 to begin graduate studies in political science and international law. And uh, so that was another part of my career and during that career I was asked to bring the then president of the University of Chicago, Robert M. Hutchins, who is a an innovator in education to Houston to help my associates there who had just opened the University of St. Thomas. I went for a weekend and they asked me if I'd stay longer and so I came back to Chicago and got some clothes and went back for a month and stayed for four months. And their first year of that college and then returned and got my, finish my doctoral work at

Chicago and was moved back to St. Michael's as a registrar or Dean as we call it here and then vice president where I was for 9 years. [Host] Fascinating preparation for the job you were about to take undertake in when 1950 [Guest] '58,[Host] '58,[Guest] '58 at St. John Fisher College. That's you came here in '58 to[Guest] in '58 [Host]be president of St. John Fisher. [Guest] Yes. It was one building, [Host]one building, [Guest] at that time.[Host] Can you give us an idea of what, how the community struck you in 1958? [Guest] Well, I had fond memories of Rochester from my earlier days and I must admit I thought I was well established back in Toronto at the university when I was asked by my superior if I would come over here as president. And obviously I said yes. In those days you did what your superior asked you and I recall well when I arrived at St. John Fisher I'd been only there once at the laying of the cornerstone. And I said the first night I got here standing on the front steps having transported myself or been transported from Toronto. And I looked over the

expanse of land around us, this contrasted with the heart of the city of Toronto, I wondered what have I done that they have sent me to this place?[Host] St. John Fisher you had one building, [Guest] one building, [Host]Kearney Hall. And that, that was, what, formerly a farm. [Guest] That was a farm when we bought it [Host]and there were, there was no other building around.[Guest] No there was one, a little and a chemistry building was under construction as what they thought might be a temporary building it was because it was a labor strike at that time; it was not completed so it was one of the first things I had to do was complete it. And a there were not many homes around the college at that time except the ones that had been in that area of Pittsford for years.[Host]So it was [Host] So it was literally a sand dune. [Guest] It was a sand dune and there's lots of sand out there, too, I guess. [Host] The landscaping today is absolutely beautiful at the college now. How did that all come about? [Guest] Well there's according to the geologists they call it Pittsford blow sand and they think that's the remnant of a lake that years ago probably led to the ultimately to the recession of the waters to the Irondequoit Bay.

So the while it's sand it nonetheless puts when you put water with it there's fertility and hence with a lot of water we got grass. And a among the other things that I that I did since I have always loved trees was to a figure we needed some plantings and a I found out that I could be declared a farmer by the federal government and they were happy to conserve soil and so I got 5000 seedlings a year which the biology department planted. And so those trees today have grown and many of them are on the campus that you see as you drive along and around the buildings and over where the Murphy Hall where I now live and the golf course is. So those trees are, [Host]the golf course is referred to as Lavery's Links, so I don't know how that came about. [Guest] I guess because I like golf. [Laughs][Host]Also you spend a little time there. Well we may get into that a little later but before we get too far past the beginnings of the college, why St. John Fisher here in Rochester in the late '40s? Why was there a need for a Catholic Men's College?

[Guest] Well I think there are 2 I think 2 reasons. One our Bazillian Tradition is our whole work has been in high schools and colleges primarily although we're in parish work, likewise, in missions in Texas and Mexico. But a our work has always been our headquarters the University of Toronto it was the mother house. Once I graduated and where I was subsequently. And when we were asked to take over the high school in 1937. And a when it became a tuition charging or at least they had to pay tuition instead of a free school. One of the agreements that we made or the community made with the bishop was that we would like to someday go in a higher education and a there was not a men's college at that time. And we came in 1937. And so did Bishop James Edward Kearney who came from Salt Lake and he was a great Fordham man and so when our men decided they would like to start a college he was very amenable to it and hence the search for property that led to the purchase of the sand dune on the corner of

East Avenue and I 1 letter described this property by Father Haffey to Toronto, just said a piece of land at a corner of 2 roads called East Avenue and Fairport Road. I looked at it and often wondered at God's providence bringing us there, but who could have had a more wonderful place? Now [Host] I think the land value has probably gone up though, [Guest] Considerably, [Host]a few dollars since then. So a Bishop Kearney, then, was really one of the true founders, really, of Saint John Fisher, [Guest]And he loved the place right to his last days as you well know. [Host] I - I do recall at the groundbreaking of the library which is named after you, Father Lavery, that Bishop Kearney was there for, yes, for that ground breaking and dedication. [Guest] Yes the dedication he was there [Host]like that was 1976, 6, [Guest] 6 I'm going to say '75 or 6, six, Bill. Bill, I'm it's probably '76. The dedication was done a little earlier to coincide with his birthday and also with the, well at that time, the Governor Wilson was running for re-election against a governor who was subsequently Governor Carey and Malcolm used to be on our board was a Fordam man a great friend of the bishop, so the

at that occasion is marked on the library. [Host] Father Lavery you came here in '58, [Guest] 1958,[Host] 58. You had one building and about 475 students. Today as we mentioned earlier there are over 3000 students. What did you see as the future of the college then did you, did you think it was going to reach 3000 and it would eventually admit women and how did you, how did you come about it? You can't say it in just a few words, but go about getting started? [Guest] Well, as I told you my first description was I thought I wondered what I had done to be sent here. And a [Host] You thought it was penance? [Guest] I wouldn't say that, but I was So after a short while I realized that the all of the students were coming from the city of Rochester and I thought that it would be good because of prior experiences for us to have students from other places and I began to talk about a dormitory and some of my colleagues who had spent earlier years as prefects in dorms were not too interested in that project. But I saw it as necessary

academically and for the community and so it that led to uh discussions by the board and um then we a we then realized that in the 19 that was in 6 1960-61 we were talking that way. That was the beginning of what became a very very powerful period of growth in the state of New York as you well know in the nation and the full fruits of World War II as far as college students and the baby boom was upon us. So the, we then drew a master plan and a 1962 May 7th was a when it was unveiled in May and that envisioned a complete campus as the architect dreamed it and I did and a the only thing that I never thought I'd see the day when it would be built as rapidly. I thought I put in what I thought I would love to see which included the dormitories and then I put in one corner with the theme was at that time building for the 21st

century and I had a geodesic dome in one corner of the master plan which was to be the communication center and that's the only thing missing that I'd like. [Host] Well you had amazing [Guest] may come yet [Host] You had amazing foresight, but now you're here you are you're a Canadian citizen you're, you're about 40 years old when you you come here to Rochester and I presume you had a few contacts, but you didn't know an awful lot of people.But you are accused of making the right connections when you came to Rochester, you know. What were the right connections, were they people institutions or whatever because obviously you had some gift that allowed you to build St. John Fisher College so well and so rapidly. [Guest] Well I must be very humble and say that I as I became closer to retirement I was being interrogated about it I and what I had, the thoughts were in my mind the very question you're raising. I went back to read the interview that I had when I arrived. And I was surprised to note there that the 2 things that I struck was that I was not going to have big

time football, but that I was a firm believer in the community and I wanted to work for and with the community. And, because of my experience at the University of Toronto which was a very fascinating experience of Federation of denominational colleges in the provincial or state university. And we were an intense part of the community and I saw the great need of the college not being in isolation on a sand dune. And a so I believing in the community I got into it and I guess that was the result and I suspect the other reason was that since I was a priest and wore a collar that was a bit unusual and I had the full blessing of Bishop Kearney to do everything I could in the community and participate. So the net result was that as the college then made its plans to expand. The community leaders thinking above all of the late Joe Wilson and Bill Vaughn and Mr. Chapman and many others.[Host] As you know Joe Wilson was the president of Xerox [Guest] Xerox. [Host]at the time and Bill Vaughn was a president of Kodak at the time and

and Abe Chapman was that. [Guest] Well Albert Chapman was the chairman of Kodak, but then Abe Chapman was with the Amalgamated Clothing workers [Host] Right. [Guest] and he became a friend likewise. And [Host]you had business and labor, [Guest] Yes, yes, and a [Host] on your side. [Guest] And the, it's I guess one thing I believed in the community and I didn't realize that how these would be interpreted later as making the best connections, but they were men that believed in the community of Rochester and Joe Wilson, of course, was the chairman at that time of the University of Rochester. And, a and then because of this whole community I think because of the number of higher education institutions at that time, I was deeply interested in an area of this size having so many institutions. The private ones with Nazareth College, our sister institution and Roberts Wesleyan. And then R.I.T. and the University of Rochester and Colgate Divinity. It seemed like a community

in which higher education had certainly had great prestige. [Host]So what you're really saying is at that time at that period in history we had a group of community leaders, who indeed could bring some major support to bear for your effort at St. John Fisher College. [Guest] And respected the higher education very much. [Host]And a how did you convince them there was a need for another college? Well I, first the college had been planned before I got here to start the first one but they saw the necessity and because our first graduates who had come out in 1955 had been so well received in the community a the first year 3 were admitted 1 to the University of Rochester and 1 to Georgetown and one I believe to Temple University in medicine. And then from the beginnings we had our accountancy program was accepted right from the start. And the 3 I think, again providentially, the our curriculum had the was a very well-planned

science a a curriculum and in a the business and accounting and in the full field of the humanities and social sciences and the 3 areas, of course, the social sciences, humanities obviously were in that field, but in both the sciences and the business and accounting the uh the liberal study of the liberal arts was a third of the curriculum or more if they so wished which at that time I think was very innovative. But today obviously is recognized as being extremely necessary. So I'd say right from the beginning the curriculum helped us take our position in the community in this particular area where science, of course, has such prestige and prominence. [Host] Father Lavery something else that was done along I think about around the mid '60s was the change in the, in the, the trustee make up of the, of the college. You know founded by the Basilian Fathers [Guest] Yes. [Host]And then and then what, when was the decision made to go to entirely to lay trustees? [Guest] Well I say again looking forward to the future and I must say

again with the experience of the um I think of the University of Toronto and a that was my plan that St. John Fisher would not be isolated as an independent college 'cause we had never known that in our tradition we were, our 2 big universities were in Windsor at Assumption which many people in this community know and St. Michael's which was then well I'd we'd celebrated the centennial when I was there so, St. Michael's had a long history of partnership in the community and in the educational community and this was very much in my mind here and so indicate the community's support, we had it from the earliest days a board of advisory regions. Well I wanted to get the word advisory out first of all that I wanted them to participate. And then bit by bit on the basic board of trustees who were originally our religious, our priest's college and other men, I then added laymen and bit by bit expanded the board to its full size and then made the board, as they say, ecumenical with

representation of the priests, of Father Dorsey, the dean and myself and then also a representative of the community in Toronto of the say of our headquarters to keep the Basilian continuity and so that has continued to this day and a with.[Host] Father when in 1971 You made the decision to admit women to St. John Fisher College. Why? [Guest] Many people have asked that question, Bill, obviously and I, I think I can be very honest and say I would have made it coed the day I came because in 1952 we had done the same thing at St. Michael's College when we had two women's colleges attached to St. Michael's in Toronto, a triplicating our programs and that was in a period of expansion then we saw how ridiculous it was not to have them as 1 and when we made that historic decision in the centennial year those who had been separated from us said Why wasn't it done years before? So when I came here I thought well here are 2 colleges a mile apart it doesn't make sense. So

we've for a long time obviously kept that relationship. But then a [Host]. You mean the 2 colleges you mean St. John Fisher and Nazareth College [Guest] and we were closely related, of course, but a the high schools at that time see the Bishop Kearney and Mooney the local schools were coed and the public schools are coed, so to me it was the natural thing to think about and I saw the demand until we made that decision at that time and we informed Nazareth I knew it was going to be not too pleasing to them but subsequently they, of course, made the same decision and we were both. But that... [Host] Nazareth decided to admit men was that a year or 2 later? Probably a little bit more than I think, maybe 4 years. But and again our curriculum which was geared toward the business and accounting and the sciences had a strong appeal that was beginning then for the women students and so that coincided with the I think the trends that were very evident in the country. And so the day after this it was, in 1976 that as I believe

the think, was it '76? you probably checked on the dates for me. [Host]That's pretty close. [Guest] But in any event now that our undergraduate enrollment we're very close to 50/50 men and women taking our full head count and continuing ed were up 53 or 4 percent women students. So the women actually outnumber the men at this point. Which is true in the state of New York and across the nation. [Host]Father Lavery now we go to do just leave the campus for briefly and come into the Rochester community. You've been here, you were President for 22 years and that was 2 years ago that you retired became chancellor, so you've been here now 24 years. [Guest] Yes. 25 years or so. [Host]You've seen changes take place in Rochester, what in your mind were the what events or people or changes stand out more than any other? Well as the, let's say as the college drew in the Pittsford area, so did the whole community of Pittsford and Brighton and Penfield and Fairport and Henrietta. And Webster. And Greece. And so the biggest change I

saw as they say what is called a flight to the suburbs in other cities. In our instance that distance from downtown Rochester to the suburbs is not that great. So I think the biggest and most dramatic picture is that the inner core of our city has been reduced. And let us say the periphery of the suburbs has all increased uh and that's one of the reasons I've been so interested and supportive of the concept of metro government feeling that this is what we need and because we are so close and that this is one community and all so I, and because the city of Toronto became a metro government a little after I left it so I can't say, but I saw what it did in that city and I've always felt it was the same thing here and could be and I suspect will be in due time. [Host]Father you've been the recipient of every community award that I can think of. I know you received the civic medal from the chamber and all sorts of awards from every local community organization. I think at any given moment in your 25

years you've probably got a dozen boards now a. How did you juggle all those community responsibilities and we know you spend a lot of time fundraising and administer a college, so that it grew from one building to 12 buildings? [Guest] Well I asked... [Host] Well we know you had some help from up above but I mean besides that. [Guest] Well I asked my good assistant Mark McMahon who was with me for almost all of those 22 years and who is now with my successor Father Braden and I said how did we ever do those things in that time and I, Bishop Kearney used to say to me how can you be on so many boards? I can say I did neglect the college, but I had a wonderful assistant from Father Dorsey and all the faculty. And a since I was gifted by God with lots of health and strength I probably did all I could in the all the waking hours and that had the sleeping hours somewhat at a minimum level and a, but at any rate, I was able to do as much as I could for as many people as I could and it's always been a joy so...

[Host] What... [Guest] I got by. [Host]What is the future now, private colleges, I say small private colleges like St. John Fisher College in terms of the financial ability to continue with the kind of program that you want? [Guest] Well it's if we just start off with the closing of Eisenhower College and some others in the last period of time, um it's, it's a, it's a question of which is before the minds of many many educators. I am an optimist by nature and a firm believer that with even with the demographic changes in our state and nation that there is great need for the let us say what are called the small colleges ours today with our continuing ed or 3000 which is much bigger than I ever anticipated it to be. But, there's a great role I think of in the variation we have in this community and in the state and the you know the New York state is very unique which most of us I believe are unaware of politically and financially. The strength of our independent sector which goes right

back to the earliest days of the state and it was for that reason that we did not have a state university until 1948 unlike other states in the union. And so that's why I see that the great necessity of maintaining this small colleges which is going to be a struggle in the light of the cost of education today. [Host]Father Lavery I know in the mid '70s Governor Carey appointed you to a task force on higher education and you played a key role in keeping funding up for private colleges. How do you see that battle going in, in as much as the state universities are beginning to fall on harder times, not hard times and we're surrounded by State State Universities. [Guest] Well I'm happy to say that I'm still active in it in Albany and I'm the only link with the past at this present time the only man that survived the 25 years and the Albany circuit. Father McGinley at Fordham who's 10 years older than myself at the moment. He's at Fordham as Emeritus is out of the picture but I'm still a novelty trying to educate both of the, the college, young college

presidents, the younger ones shall I say. And the legislators as to the history of higher education which developed through the Rockefeller years and subsequently whereby they recognize the great need of both. And that was one of the great tributes I can paint of Nelson Rockefeller and Malcolm Wilson. And now because of the rate of inflation and all those factors and the declining population there's, let us say the former partnership and friendliness of the 2 sectors has been somewhat strained and I would use those words I hope accurately and charitably. And so right now it's going to be a very big struggle for the independent sector to get what I would call their due recognition and make their contribution economically and educationally to the state of New York. [Host]Father Lavery before we close, I know you had an important role to play in the development of the communications division at St. John Fisher College. And I wonder if you could leave us with some educational philosophy about what you would like to see

inculcated in the students today. [Guest] Well it's what I've always believed is that our students should be - let's say able that was the reason behind my idea of the communications not only to be in this world of television but in law or medicine or the priesthood or just family life is to be able to read and to write and to speak effectively and communicate and to know that you have to be well-educated in the broad field of the humanities and the social sciences and above all in a world that is going further and further into high technology. So I see as I say again and so to me communication is, is not only has a great appeal to the young people of today but it's also vitally necessary in every aspect of life. [Host]Father Lavery, Chancellor of St. John Fisher College thank you very much. [Guest] Thank you, Bill. [Host]Join us next time for the "Rochester I Know." [Music] For a VHS copy of this programs send $19.95 plus $3.50 shipping

and handling to The Rochester I Know Tape Offer, Post Office Box 21, Rochester, New York 14601. Include a note with the name of our guest and the program number shown at the bottom of the screen. [Nothing}