Interview with Mrs. Harper Sibley, Jr.

Mrs. Harper Sibley, one of Rochester's great moral and social leaders, passed away on June 11th, 1980. In memory of this great woman, WXXI presents an interview with Mrs. Harper Sibley, a program of reminiscences and insights recorded in the WXXI studios, April 1st, 1974. When - when were you born? I was a born May 30th, 1887. That makes you... So I'll be 87 if I live to the end of May. Were you born here in Rochester? No, no, I was born, uh my family lived in New York, but I was born the end of May, so we were out in the country in New Jersey where we lived. You were born in New Jersey? I was born in New Jersey, really. What did your dad do there? He was a broker and banker. And you grew up in and around New York City? so I grew up in New York City. My grandmother's house was downtown, Gramercy Park area, so as a little girl

I played in Gramercy Park. So that was around the turn of the century. Yes, I grew up around the turn of the century. What was it like growing up? Now, of course, the great blizzard was in 1888. That would be a year after... I was not quite a year old. You don't remember that. No, but I remember the tales of it. How they went out to get milk and how they had to...it was a great blizzard in New York. And so I grew up there, then my family's house was on West 37th Street. And I learned to run an automobile on 37th Street in New York between 5th and 6th Avenue. You'd have difficulty today. And then when we were... How old were you then? When you were driving around? All those years, all those years! My mother and father's house was there. And I went to school in New York at Miss Spencer's school, and then when we were first married and my three children were born, at 500 Madison Avenue. You were born, ha, excuse me, you were married when? I married in

1908. I was in 21. Where did you meet your husband? He was in my same class with my brother at Groton School. And so we met up in Maine where we all used to spend the summer. And of course young people in those days, all of my grandchildren get jobs and work and do all sorts of things, but in those days they didn't quite so much. And so they'd have vacation and play tennis and golf and they would sail. You think we took life a little more relaxed? Oh, much more relaxed! No question. How do you think it's changed us that we're not as relaxed? Oh! Oh! The pressures are much greater today, than they used to be! But but you were able to take those vacations I mean... Oh, yes! You weren't working class. You weren't a working class family, where you had to work a 10 hour day, 7 days a week. [laughs] No. No, no. Which I think many did in those days.

I think so too, I agree with you. I'm not sure if they had much leisure... Yes. they had. But, the school vacations... A great many young people did not work in those days. Now of course the ambitious ones, my husband always felt that the boys who worked their way through college, got much more out of college than the ones whose parents sent them, because they knew what it costs to get an education. And he really felt that they made much better grades and made much more of their college education, the ones who worked. I think we're inclined to associate you entirely with Rochester but you really didn't come to Rochester... I didn't come to Rochester (until when) until I was 25 years old and I had my 25th birthday in the house in which I now live and have lived for 62 years, and our first party... But you that would, you came to Rochester that would be... 1912. 1912. And our first party was for everybody who had worked on the house.

From the architect to the youngest plumbers' and bricklayers' assistants. So you had the house built? No, it was it was my husband's grandfather's house, having been built about 1865. But we hadn't...it was done over, added more bathrooms. People seem to need more bathrooms. Why did you come to Rochester? Ohh, my husband's roots were all in Rochester, he was an only son. His two brothers had died as little boys, his father was getting much older and he wanted very much that he would come and help share the responsibilities. And so they gave us the grandfather's house. What was your husband's your husband's roots were here, (yes) were they pioneers in this area? Oh, no, he was born in New York, he was born on Madison Avenue where Brooks Brothers now is, 44th Street and Madison Avenue, because his mother was a New York woman. She was Margaret Harper, and her grandfather

was one of the Harper Brothers of the Harpers Publishing House. How does the Sibley family tie into Western Union. Oh! Oh! Well my husband's grandfather Hiram Sibley, came as a young boy to Rochester, worked his way through on a canal boat and came first to Lima, and then Honeoye, because there was water power there. And he started two mills, and the foundations of the mills are still there, in Honeoye Falls. And he did mending of machinery, manufacturing, grinding corn. He was never a farmer, although my husband's love of agriculture was the thing he loved the very best. And so Mr. Sibley did these things, then he moved into Rochester, because he became sheriff of Monroe County. This is your husband... My husband's grandfather, my husband's grandfather who came about

1827. That was just about the time the canal was going through. Yeah, the canal had been opened because it came through on the canal. Then he went back to North Adams where he'd come from, married Elizabeth Tinka, brought her out on the canal and brought the first little piano. I think as the story is in the Western New York and that's in the Historical Society, now on East Avenue. But now let's get to the telegraph system. So he became a great friend of Samuel Morse, and of course Samuel Morse invented the telegraph and the Morse code. But he had no promotional ability at that, so many inventors don't have, they're just dreamers, and so his great friend was Hiram Sibley, and he asked Mr. Sibley to go to Washington and persuade President Lincoln to get the appropriation from Congress for the first telegraph line which

went from Washington to Baltimore, and the first message "What hath God wrought," was the first message that went over Western Union. And so this started - it wasn't Western Union then, it was just a very small telegraph line. Then they built some other small lines. Washington to Baltimore, Baltimore to Philadelphia, Philadelphia to New York, New York to Albany and once Mr. Sibley senior, the grandfather, sent a message home to Rochester when he would get back. And he got home ahead of the telegram, because it had to change all the little companies, you see. And so, (How did we finally overcome that?) he decided that it was un- economic that all these little companies. And so he started this scheme to combine them all and I heard one of the recent presidents of Western Union speaking to the Chamber of

Commerce in Rochester say it was the first combination or trust in the United States way back there. And of course I've always felt (Did anyone try to bust it up?) Well, the law is against combinations in restraint of trade. And I like to think this was a combination in promotion (It certainly speeded up communication.) Because it speeded up communication when it was all one. Then he took the telegraph line across the United States before the first railroad which was quite an engineering job and and took it all the way out to California. And when we saw the pageant of the Pacific some years ago in San Francisco they made the statement that that was one of the things that held the Pacific coast in the union. The fact that it had telegraphic and immediate communication. Did your husband in any way connect himself with Western Union? Oh, he was a director and my son Harper is a director. Still to this day. Yes.

Still today the family is interested in it. Mrs. Sibley, your life has spanned all of the 20th century (Yes! Exactly.) that we know and I'm always amazed that people of your age, you've seen all of these cataclysms, (Exactly.) all of the wars, all of the upheavals, not only locally but nationally and internationally. Well of course I feel war is so wrong, but I feel that there was no alternative with the two European wars. You could not allow, certainly, the Kaisar to run over Europe and take England, and you couldn't allow, CERTAINLY! I was in Germany with the International Chamber of Commerce in 1937. My husband was just finishing being president of the United States Chamber of Commerce, and so we went over to Berlin. And we watched the beginning

of the repression of the people in Germany. And we should've much much sooner. When the first synagogue was bombed or destroyed. (Were you there then?) I was there just after that. I was there when Niemoller was arrested, and went to Niemoller's church the Sunday after he was arrested and heard his courageous young assistant stand up in the pulpit and say all these different things, and the next Sunday - the next Wednesday he was in jail. And it's unbelievable but we were entertained by Goering and Goebbels, they entertained the whole... (...time at all?) We couldn't believe it! It just seemed that they were organizing Germany for efficiency. And it was very efficient. The railroads were all on time, and things were moving in a very efficient way.

If our railroads ever run on time (Yes they did. They run on time in Germany.) I mean if they start to run on time in this country do we start to worry? ?(No)? (Exactly, exactly) The two subsequent wars Korea and Vietnam. Yes. [Host] Ah. We were involved in that For better or for worse. How do you feel about those two? (Well, of course, of Vietnam, I don't feel we ever should gone in there.) (Why?) Seemed to me that I realize all the reasons and all the arguments, but I feel that a it's a very complicated thing. Too complicated for this particular broadcast, broadcast, but I feel we never should have sent our troops over there. Other events during your life which the suffragette movement. ?I mean? yeah. And I tell you (you were going through) I was anti-suffragist. (You were anti?) Yes, I was. (Why?) Well, I had a very conservative family, very conservative bringing up, and my mother's

premise was that the family was a unit and the family had a vote, you see. And, so I grew up with that idea idea and having come from a very happy home, married into a very happy home because my husband parents were very happily married and all my friends seemed to be unhappy, that we didn't see, that we felt the family was represented. But of course since then we realize how the man doesn't represent the woman's point of view at all in regard to education. For instance, our daughter is just finishing her 5th term on the Board of Education in Los Angeles. I was with her last Tuesday. The problems of education that they're facing is the second largest school system in the United States and I'm very proud of her because she

wasn't going to run for a 5th term. She'd had 16 years and she was waited on by Black Caucus from the Watts area and the Chicano Mexican caucus begging her to run again because she represented them and their interests. So, she did run again was elected again. (I see. So you've changed your mind about women's lib). Oh completely, completely, I feel we have no alternative except to ?respect?.... (Is there anything about the women's lib movement today that you might take some issue with? For instance, the Equal Rights Amendment that might even draft.) When you had a very ?sting? program last night on television on your channel with Mr. Brockway on the subject being debated; and I think there are some problems about the total "Equal Rights" if it means women are going to have to serve equally in the armed forces and are going to lose some of the privileges that they have now.

Special rights, which I think is understandable but I think there is room for a great deal of improvement in regard to equal pay for equal work, equal promotion for equal ability and some of those things. But, I also realize that many men's egos are very fragile (laughter) or they were threatened. (Did you have any feelings as a young married or as a young woman. What kind of things were you engaged in were you?) Oh, Oh, well, of course, one couldn't belong to the Sibley family and not be involved in the Genesee Hospital because of the tale that I'd been brought up on was the way it started was that a very sick man stopped at the house in which I now live; so ill, they couldn't get him over to General Hospital and that my husband's grandmother took him in and

nursed him in our own house; somebody she had never seen. And then two days later said to our husband, Hiram, we must have a hospital in this part of the city. And so, he and his partner, an intimate friend, ?down the lot.? Watson got themselves very busy and brought in other friends and they started, in a very modest way, the Genesee Hospital. So, of course, both my husband and I became very active in the Genesee hospital. Then my father-in-law had been one of the people that had helped build St. Paul's Church out on East Avenue. So we started in there. And I taught Sunday school for 25 years. That's quite a long time. (What did you think about having a career as a young woman or what kinds of careers were open?) (Well, of course) to your colleagues? (There were a few women in politics. Not very many, but I had two friends who were congress women and of course the teaching career and

certain other activities that people did. But, it wasn't just everybody. Now, I have one granddaughter who's taking pre-med; hopes to be a doctor. Another granddaughter who is taking pre-law; hopes to be a lawyer. (Did you ever want a career?) ?Then there are lists.? No, no, I was saying You see, I was tremendously interested in ?volved? My husband's great interest, as I told you, was agriculture; so, we went to Cornell and started agriculture. (And you went together.) We went together. We didn't take the four year course we just took the very INTENSIVE summer course in agriculture and became. I am very proud because his leases in the state of Illinois are the model leases for ?live? ?I don't know if she merely? (By leases do you mean ?many of

us.? Yes who Who was. [Host] So he leases land. (Mrs. Sibley) He did. (Host) or he did lease land.(Mrs. Sibley) My son and my grandson's now do. And, in the old days we called them tenants. Well then tenant (Host) This was the tenant farmer system. (Mrs. S.) They were supposedly but the word tenant isn't a very nice word anymore. So we changed the whole idea of the lease from tenants to partners.ah (Host) And were they in fact true partners? Did they (Mrs. S.) Yes they ?are when I was a partner and the man who worked the land was upon them and they were? parties of the first part; parties of the second part. (Host)Those farms are still being worked? (Mrs. S.) They're still yes all these. (Host)What is the product? (Mrs. S.) Well over 100 years. It used to be corn, corn, corn (laughs) and now it's corn, soy beans, And, of course, in the old days we used to leave a quarter of the farm fallow, as we called it and put it into clovers together to the humus.

But now, with artificial fertilizers ?they? and with the hybrid seeds you wouldn't believe when we began working them the yield on some of those farms was 28 to 42 bushels to the acre. Take a guess. What it is now. (Host) I I would say perhaps it's doubled. (Mrs. S.) One hundred fold. (Host) Four times. (Mrs. S.)Four times, well not 4 times the 42, but. (Host) Oh I beg your pardon.(Mrs. S.) but more than than one. (And some of them more than a hundred bushels to the acre. But of course, there is that very expensive fertilizer goes in. But the never the less. And so we're grateful that the program of subsidizing people not to plant which I think went on much too long.) (Host) Your interest in agriculture, I think, it comes maybe as a little bit of surprise to some of us. We had no idea I ?have? your background is so varied. I wonder if we could talk about Rochester in this area a little bit. Ah. You came here in 1912. (Mrs. S.) Yes. (Host) Now in 1974 ah

I guess you've seen the society (Mrs. S.) 62 years. (Host) if we could call it a society change. We've seen (Mrs. S.) Tremendous. (Host)The economics of the area changed, the politics certainly changed and and I wonder if you could comment on each one of those. Was there a Rochester society? for instance when you came here? (Mrs. S.) Well, (Host) Does it exist today in your mind? (Mrs. S.) Well of course I have never taken very seriously the society that gets a ah quoted in the society columns. (Host) We've read so much about George Eastman's time and period and ah(Mrs. S.) Yes. (Host) what life in this area was presumably a little more ah. (Mrs. S.) Well life was oh so much simpler (Host) more enjoyable enjoyable? (Mrs. S.) ah I wasn't here in the really old days that people talk of when New Year's Day they'd put on their best clothes and go around and call on everybody. I always wondered how anybody was home because everybody seemed to be calling on everybody else. Right, they did, but, of course, Mr. Eastman's Sunday evening parties were great events. He always had his

quartet and the organ playing and then a buffett supper. And it was an interesting experience because there were so many people from Kodak; so many people from the University of Rochester. Then the Medical School and then people that a a one knew and a so it always made an interesting gathering, and a (Host) What has been the most dramatic change in your view in what, say in the city of Rochester whether its economics or politics or what? (Mrs. S.) Oh I (I think the change that's happened in the entire United States in the matter of Civil Rights. To me that's the most exciting thing thing because, for those of us (Host) And that (Mrs. S.) who had cared at about way, way way back. I couldn't get to first base. The last 10 years we've just moved so incredibly fast. (Host) So you think of the Civil Rights Movement in this area with the most dramatic change that we've

that we've undergone. (Mrs. S.)I thought it the most dramatic thing in the whole United States. (Host) You were involved in the Civil Rights Movement. (Mrs. S.) Well I was concerned,(Host) To what extent?(Mrs. S.) I was concerned, Well I happened to have been chairman of a committee called the Commission on Religion and Race, which was a very important commission nationally, trying in every way to promote equal rights and opportunities and dignity and all the things we feel belong to every human being. And so, in Rochester we have been ?meeting? for some. So after those riots that happened. Ah after the governments of '63 or '64. (Host) Ten years ago. (Mrs. S.) They met at our house that next morning to see whether there was something we could do. And then we kept meeting for the next 2 days ?is great many spent the night. We'd send out and get sandwhiches (Laughs) and so forth.

So, a great big group were there. And we'd tried to do everything we could to see, if possible, that it wouldn't occured the second night, but there was a problem the second night and then things began to happen a little bit. And people began to realize that there must be a great many changes and although nothing ever moves fast fast enough for those who always hold the ideal before us ourselves. Nevertheless, when I look back and when I see some of these different situations I have particular friends in the South because I was president of what's called Churchwoman United which was all the Protestant women in the United States. And when I realized we wanted to meet in Washington while the war was going on because we wanted to be able to bring a lot of pressure on our senators and congressman. Now our black members of which we had a great many and because we took in no organization that wasn't totally integrated whether it was

Savannah, Georgia, Atlanta, Texas, Louisiana wherever it was, it had to be an integrated organization. And I've been to meetings down there when we had to come to the church separately. We couldn't be on the street together. Ah Black friends and ourselves and we had to leave separately. But we could meet in the church because that was our business and this meeting in Washington. Black members couldn't stay in the hotels. So we all stayed in each other's houses. We white people stayed in black house with black hostesses and the black people stayed in white houses and not the White House (Laughs). Course although it might have been because was it was during Mrs. Roosevelt's time. And she was very very liberal. But a when you think now the things that have happened and are growing that still happen. (Host) Do you think the civil rights movement is still alive? (Mrs. S.) Oh. Yes. Yes, but, of course, you don't have as dramatic

cases of abuse as we did have. And so it's always a little harder to stir up people's continuing emotions, but I believe that many people are just as concerned as ever. Every area. (Host) Do you think without the riots in Rochester there would have been progress anyway or do you think those riots had(Mrs. S.)I think there would have been progress. I'm not sure we would have been aware quite as soon. But of course I always disliked a force and violence(Host) Do you think that was the most dramatic thing that ever happened in Rochester in your lifetime?(Mrs. S.) Oh no. Oh no. I wonder what It was the most dramatic. Well, of course, one of the very dramatic things was the great decision to build the Medical School here. And the music school here. (Host) They both about the same time, were they? (Mrs. S.) They're very

nearly the same time. And a (Host) Mid 1920's? (Mrs. S.) A ah.Yes Mr. Eastman ah was a tremendously interested in a music. He had his organ in the house and he had a organists: Mr. Gleason and at one time Mrs. Vaughn (?) ah played the organ. She was a very very fine organist. And ah ah so that was done, and I don't know whether you realize that Mr. Rockefeller sent the doctor to ah a find the place to build a new medical school that would cut away from the old traditions and the old faculties and they went around to different colleges. And ah a then they came to Rochester. They said so many of these colleges had a menu like the Waldorf Astoria. But when you came there look at the at the catalog read like the Waldorf Astoria.

But when you came to look at what they really had all they had was ham and eggs.(Laughs) But you looked at the University of Rochester and they didn't offer so very much but everything they offered they had to a very superior degree and they also Mr. Rockefeller wanted to find a donor who would match him. And in Mr. Eastman he found someone who was tremendously interested. And so this whole drama of the Medical School and the School of Music and the great Eastman Theatre. These are some of the great dramatic moments. (Host) Those are amazing times and I know if you review and go back over the years ah certain things stand out. Now I wonder what stands out in the city of Rochester or in this community in terms of government? Ah these You saw the introduction of the city manager system here. (Mrs. S.) Yes. Yes. (Host) Ah You've seen us beset with problems both in the City and the County.

I wonder if you have any observations (Mrs. S.)Well.(Host) Concerning local politics. (Mrs. S.) Well this might interest you. My husband and I were up in Maine and I had a telegram to ask if I'd allow my name to be put up to run for the first city council council. (Host) Which was when? (Mrs. S.) Well wouldn't it have been then about ah '28. I would say. say just about. (Host) And how did you responded? (Mrs. S.) I didn't turn it down.Well my husband was perfectly willing. He didn't think I'd be very good at it because I'm not a detail person and so much so city council has to do with streets and sewers and all that kind of detail. But I was always fascinated with politics. We lived next door to Theodore Roosevelt's sister. So from the time I was little girl Theodore Roosevelt was one of our great heroes all of us young people and the first time I ever went to Washington I stayed in the White House with the Theodore Roosevelts which

was a very informal thing to do in those days and ah so forth. But my father-in-law was so horrified (Laughs) at the idea. (Host) What was your impression of Theodore Roosevelt? (Mrs. S.) Oh! A very great person. Great vitality. Great ideaism. Very forceful and ah very able. And the thing he did he surrounded himself with such able capable men. This was one of the things about(?) Mr. Taft and the various people with which is surrounded himself. (Host) Well when you consider all of the dilemmas we're faced with today if you can call them that or maybe you'd view them differently. We have an energy crisis; we have a conservation and ecology crisis we have a transportation crisis. (Mrs. S.) Well we've always had the problems.(Host laughs). But then someone comes across the crisis. (Host)I would I wonder if if if you could foresee any of these things

developing whether it was long about World War I or during the 20's or 30's 30 or 40 years ago was there anything on the horizon that would point out all of the the problems of today. Some might consider breakdowns in society. Ah I wonder if there was ah any (Mrs. S.)indication. Well. (Host) Or wouldn't you view them as being that serious at all? (Mrs. S.) Oh I think they're very serious and I think the people who really are responsible should have foreseen and forewarned. I I think this, of course, we use so much more than our share of the world's energy that the (Host) The United States. (Mrs. S.) United States so much more than our share of the world's natural resources in every way that I think maybe we're going to now that the whole world is becoming industrialized and

mechanized. They're going to have to either find new sources of energy. And I'm always looking for that new source. (Host) Or (Host) Or be willing to take our rationing (Mrs. S.) Or be willing to take our lessening because I don't think there's a person that drives a car that doesn't spend some time and unnecessarily. And I I think that discipline is very good for people. And ah so certain restrictions on them. I I think is good both for young people and for older people. (Host) Mrs. Sibley I wanted to talk to you as I mentioned earlier a little bit about being old. (Mrs. S.)Yes I know all about it. (Host) Some of the problems or advantages or disadvantages. disadvantages of being old. You're 87 ah? (Mrs. S.) I will be if I live till the end of May (Host) That's another month. (Mrs. S.) Yes it is. (Host) Ah and the a these are particularly hard times for people on fixed income I (Mrs. S.) Very. (Host) I assume that's not a problem for you, but still growing old must have

some disadvantages. (Mrs. S. ) It's a problem for everybody. (Host) The cost of food transportation, housing ah. How do you view some of these problems? We can take them all together or specifically. (Mrs. S.) Well I think one has to be willing to change one's attitude and one's point of view. In the first place. Everybody I think has to get used to having great physical limitations. Let's start with that. Because whoever you are cataracts have no respect to persons and ah nearly all my friends. I have a few exceptions have had problems with their eyes with cataracts or Whatever it might be and a. (Host) And you have that problem? (Mrs. S.) Yes I have cataracts in both eyes and glacoma in one. You helped me down the steps. (Host) How did. How do you get around this? (Mrs. S.) Well the doctor won't operate and you just live with it. (Laughs).

And hope you won't fall down.(Laughs). What what what is the greatest disadvantage you see (?)too. (Mrs. S.)Well of course ah I I'm grateful for the sight I have and I'm grateful for the New York Times in large print which enables me to read James Reston and certain other of my favorite columnists once a week, but I miss the daily newspaper. And this is why I'm so grateful to television and to channel 21 for bringing us certain things on which I'm really very dependent. (Host) Thank you very much for that we really didn't ask for the testimonial that was unsolicited.(Mrs. S.) I know. But I mean it it is something that means a great deal and not only to me, but to all my older friends. Now I've just been visiting my granddaughter in California who lives out there. She has 5 children and a career. She's very active. She's a Gestalt Psychiatrist,

at least a works in that field. And is a consultant. She's a consultant and a therapist and she also now is taking a degree in theology has five children, but her mother-in-law lives with her. And the mother-in-law is. This is what used to happen. The grandmother always lived in the home. We had my grandmother living in our home and so forth. This doesn't happen now. (Host) Why do you think that doesn't happen any more? (Mrs. S.) Largely because people don't have such big houses. I mean the houses you take the farm houses even though the people didn't have great wealth they always had room. (Host) There was (Host) Always a place for Grampa (Mrs. S.) Always a place for Grandma and Grandpa. (Host)What do you think of the (Host) The new ah design for senior citizens, the high rise buildings. (Mrs. S.) I think they're pretty grim. I think not to be able to get your feet on the ground is is a hard thing. Because I think we

need Mother Earth to nourish our souls. (Host) What what would the alternative be for many of these older people? (Mrs. S.)Well I suppose the townhouses village(?), but, of course, that's much more expensive to build and maintain the heat and ah so forth. I I think we're caught and I'm not critical of it, but I I in these ways wish we could go back to the family that had the different generations. In my mother's family, not only my grandmother lived there, but my great grandmother they didn't live in our home, but they lived in my aunt's home. And So we grew up whenever we're visited them with my great grandmother, my grandmother, my aunt and then we children. And it bring something pretty wonderful. (Host) I I wonder what will be the final outcome of this trend to move everyone into these cubicles and around(?) many (Mrs. S.) But it's never final. (Host) Many many.

(Mrs. S.) It's never final. But actually(?) (Host) But many of the elderly people in them don't seem to mind it. They (Mrs. S.) No. (Host)They often that they view it as being very efficient. (Mrs. S.)Yes, yes. they do. (Host) What will be the final step? I don't know if you had any thoughts about that.(Mrs. S.) I think there'd be alternatives and I think that that you know there's a certain building now is being done with some townhouses, some high rises some different things and I think there's a lot of experimentation going on and this is entirely new the whole idea of Social Security so that people do have something. It may not be very lavish living, but at least that gives a certain a possibility. (Host) We know from talking to many senior citizens that they really don't know how they're going to get by from one week to the next. (Mrs. S.) No. No. (Host) Particuarly now with the huge increase in prices of all sorts. When the prices and grocery stores just are totally out of reach. (Mrs. S.) Yes exactly. (Host) Not only are not sure where they're going to live they're not sure

how they're going to eat. (Mrs.S.)I think that insecurity. It it ah I don't know whether you've ever been in quicksand. We've spent a great deal of time in the West. And we had a ranch in Canada and there was a place where there was quicksand. And just once I got into it with my horse fortunately not too far and it's the most devastating feeling. That you Everything just going underneath you. You (Host) What what happened? (Mrs. S.) Well, of course, you jump off your horse as fast as you can. And I wasn't in too far. But I know what it feels like and this is where I think a good many older people feel the crumbling under them of any security. (Host)The other thing that we've noticed with older people is they they won't complain very much. (Mrs. S.) Now that's (Host) Now despite all of these hardships it's very difficult to get them to complain. (Mrs. S.)Now that's very interesting observation. (Host) And I I wonder if if you had some thoughts. (Mrs. S. ) Oh oh.

(Mrs. S. ) You you mean there's a stamina there. (Host) And I wonder if it has to do with growing up in another era or another age? (Mrs. S.) Oh I'd have that have to contemplate that because a ah well (Mrs.S.) Well. (Host) This is not 100% true. (Mrs. S.) No no no. (Host) For the most part they're unwilling to (Mrs. S.) Come forward and complain. Hm. (Host) Publicly or openly. (Mrs. S.) Yes or openly (Host) or with (?) What was the greatest disadvantage to you as you grew older? What what did you dislike giving up the most? (Mrs. S. ) Oh. (Host) Did you have to give up anything? Well of course each child that leaves home ah is a kind of a wrench and yet you wouldn't have it otherwise. Because it's the normal thing for them to do; leave home. But of course the most shattering experience I think for any woman to particularly if she's been happily married is when her husband dies

and she has to start life coping with it. And particularly. (Host)When did your husband die? (Mrs. S.)15 years ago this month. So it's been a long time and a he was a. Decision Maker. He was very decisive. And ah in so many areas. I I was glad to have him make the decision. And I'm not a a tremendously decisive person. And so So I miss that having my decisions made. He'd decide whether we might have the privilege of going to Europe and he'd decide so many different things that ah made life exciting and interesting. (Host) Have have you found any advantages to growing old and being a senior citizen? (Mrs. S.) I've learned that you do do have only one and that's a little perspective. Of course, I think one thing that if one has had a strong

religious background. And a strong religious faith and, of course, our greatest activity you asked me at 1 time has been always in the church. My husband and I both of us ah have served both the Episcopal Church and, ah for instance, ah we get now now Church World Service Sunday. He was President of Church World Service which is the interfaith body from the time it was born 'til his death in '59. I was President of United Church Women. That was the Protestant women. So we've served in our parish for 25 years. He is a superintendent of the Sunday School and high teaching. We have served in what was called the diocese which is our next unit of a government. And then in the national church and then had great privileges in the international a church and ah in the International YMCA.

So we've been all over the world. In connections refugees, in connection with various program, particularly refugees in a Palestine and various other parts of the world: Germany after the war. And so that made life very exciting and very dramatic always. (Host) Your life has been very exciting and very dramatic. (Mrs. S.) It has been! It has been! (Host)Would would you change any part of it? (Mrs. S.) Well of course when I started (Host)which is a a trite a trite question, but I I wonder. (Mrs. S.) When when we we started I had an idea it would be nice for my husband to go into politics (laughs). It was the last thing he ever wanted to do. He was a basically a very shy person and ah a he just somehow loved the land and a love the agriculture and the cows and the calves and the animals on the farms and things of that kind. But ah a. Life couldn't have been more interesting because it took us into every part of the

world you name it - Addis Ababa, Indonesia, Bali, besides European countries and China. We were sent around the world in 1931-32 to make a study of Christian missions in India, China and Japan. So we spent a year doing that and you can imagine the thrill of that. So we ah um did have a very very interesting and exciting life. So ah one does a feel limitations of being older not to be able to do the things but a I think perhaps one of the greatest compensations is trying to help young people's dreams come true trying to help them fulfill the daughter the granddaughter wants to be a doctor, the grand the great granddaughter I've just been with who wants to be a lawyer and a a a trying

somehow to encourage them and help them. (Host) You apparently have a great deal of faith in our young people of today. (Mrs. S.) I have great faith in our young people today. They're different and they do different things. They certainly dress differently and ah ah in many ways, but I believe in them basically that they're great people trying to create a better world. You were a young woman here in Rochester. What did you do for fun? Who were your friends? (Mrs. S.)Oh oh. (Host) When you had good times here and ah in the early 20s or during the teens. What did you do? (Mrs. S.) Oh. Well, of course, a great deal of our life was lived in connection with the church. And ah um ah we would have a (coughs) have been in our home with have a great many of the young people, a great many of the teachers of our Sunday School school. Then my husband was president of the YMCA when the big new building was

built down on Gibbs Street so we were always having meetings of that kind. It was in our home that the Rochester Association for the United Nations was born. So it seemed to me we were having some kind of a meeting at our house constantly. And a I've I've never been just terribly enthusiastic about having dinner parties just to have a dinner party. Ah I was always much more interested in having it in relationship to something that was going to accomplish something. It seemed to make it more exciting. (Host) You've been devoted to community service all your life. Well for community interests certainly and ah my husband was on the the Trustees of the University of Rochester, President of the Dental Society. Mr. Eastman gave. So when we went to Sweden we were entertained. He gave a I don't know whether you knew he live a dental dispensary in Sweden so we were entertained over there by the Swedish health group

and a then when we went into Poland we went to the YMCA. And there met all the interesting people (coughs) and ah the thing is that when you're working with those people you're working with people who are doing things. And this spoils you for people who ah just a trying to amuse themselves. I think it's fine if it amuses them.(?)(Host) What are you doing now? What are your interests?(Mrs. S.) Oh(laughs) interested in in, of course, the church, interested in ah. The YWCA. But, of course, I'm so old now that I've a been revolved as they say off every possible committee because you know the longest term of service is usually 2 terms of 3 years each. Well you could imagine so although I'm honorary member of a good many committees and go to them. I don't do as much, but

now a I'm interested in hearing and perhaps encouraging a little bit. Perhaps once in a while advising a tiny bit. Although I think the advice of our generation is that should be very scarcely given because so many things have changed. One can only lay down the principles, but I go down to New York next, right after Easter. I've been very much interested in an organization called the Japan International Christian University and I was in Japan when it was born in 1949. Soon after the War and it's celebrating its 25th anniversary. So I'm going down to New York to speak at that ah meeting. And then we get a meeting at the house for the women of the St. Paul's Church and ah then there'll be a YW (laughs) meeting all these different things that are doing things, the Ralph Bunche Scholarship Fund.

You know we've sent so many students for their first year in college just to get them off the ground. Then they seem able. These ambitious young people to win scholarships or to find ways of going through the 4 years. So you've probably met Mrs. Hamm. Ah She's been the moving spirit in that and that's been a an exciting adventure. (Host) Your your interest in everything is going on in the world never fails. (Mrs.S.) Yes (Mrs. S.) Well the there (Host) (You amaze us.) (Mrs. S.) are so many exciting things and you wake up each morning thinking that maybe something new and wonderful. For instance when I was out in San Diego, I I went to Dr. Salk's Laboratory. And ah (coughs). I met Dr. Salk and had an opportunity to discuss the Salk Vaccine. (Laughs). Well now I'm hoping to wake up some morning and they arrived in town yesterday a man from Los Angeles with whom I have been very much interested in a

possible breakthrough on cancer. So the reason I was 10 minutes late ah I wanted him to meet somebody up at the University of Rochester Medical School Research where we're trying to get a breakthrough on cancer. I won't go into it. It's very technical. But I'm I'm each morning. You almost always turn on the news and I'm waiting for that moment when maybe it will be ah in New York maybe it'll be at Sloan Kettering. I don't know. Dr. Goode, of course, is a very exciting person. And you had a program, I was in California, on cancer the other night down here. (Host) It was the series called, "The Killers". Probably. (Mrs. S.) Yes. And my friend who lives with me tried to get a telephone call through. But she said there was so many people telephoning in questions (Host) It was quite a popular program. (Mrs. S.) She couldn't get it through. through because Dr. Bachmeyer who is working on this project that I'm interested in is the one who was on your program.

She wrote me in California. So I'm just waiting each morning for that breakthrough to come. And So many other possible breakthroughs. A new energy. (Host) If you ah If you would like to see one thing accomplished in your life time or if you had an opportunity to ah to do one thing what would it be? Whether it's local, national or international. Would would some kind of breakthrough in cancer be the thing that (Mrs. S.) No (Host) would be most satisfying? (Mrs. S.) No. It it would be a great a breakthrough on the meaning of every human being. Now, too many people in too many parts of the world. I don't whether you've ever been to India or (Host) No. (Mrs.S.) ever been to the some of those countries or even some of the slums in our own countries where human life is held very cheap. (Host) Those I've been in Mexico (Mrs. S.) And Mexico and some of those, but you don't even have

to leave our own country. Ah ah. You saw the other night some of the a migrants and the conditions under which they live. It would be that every human being as a child of God. Would have the place in the sun that they as human beings deserve. We're doing certain things. My granddaughter is also working in the training of people who work with handicapped children and adults and we have done wonderful things in that area in in new ways. But it would be that every human being just because they were a human being (Host) Whether black or white, men or women or (Mrs. Sibley) (talking over) And had the opportunity (Host) or red are really a fulfillment that that would be my dream with a great sense of the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man. (Host) You mentioned a little earlier that if you lived another month you'd be

87 do you think about dying? Oh I think everybody who is over 80. I've thought about it ever since I was 70 and you ah ah you can't can't help it because you happen to know that's one of the next facts. (Host) What do you think about dying? (Mrs. S.) Well if a one has been brought up with a great sense of faith a perhaps Emily Dickinson has put it, "Because I couldn't stop for death. Death kindly stopped for me. The carriage held, but just ourselves and immortality." And you this is your wonder and your dream and I think Emily Dickinson expressed it in a wonderful way. And we don't know, but we believe the God who brought us into the world will be there when we leave this world and will sustain. And My prayer has been since I was 70.

Grace to be discarded gracefully.(Laughs)As you get older you do get discarded. Everybody else is president of everything and so on. And the other one is courage to die gallantly. Because you just keep hoping they won't just fill you with. I don't know what they fill you with. So you are just in a coma from the word go because you would like to. There's a great line in one of the poems: I hope to meet my maker a face to face. I think that's Tennyson's, "Crossing the Bar" when I have crossed the Bar. (Host) You know you would like to to die. (Mrs. Sibley) Die conscious. (Host) Conscious. (Mrs.S.) I think we all would. I think we all would. And ah I think so much of this keeping people alive after they have gone. is a dreadful thing, um. And just contradicts all our beliefs and faith and everything else, I think. Well medicine has done wonderful things. But I

think every now then it does it a disservice too. (Host) Is this Mrs. Sibley. I would ask you maybe another kind of a trite question, but ah would you have any advice for young people who are trying to make their way today? (Mrs. S.)Well I I (Host) In a society that looks as though ah it might be ah not all the way they they thought it or were led to believe it was? (Mrs. S.) Well, of course, any advice would be so inevitably linked to to our Jewish-Christian religious tradition and we find it in other countries too. We find that in Buddhism we find it in various things. The great idea that there is in each human being some something beyond the physical, a a really spiritual aspiration the thing from which all great art, great poetry great music. We had a most beautiful 2 organ recital at our

church last night. And you had the feeling of the lift of that there is in great the art of any kind. Through the centuries to somehow help them believe that this is the real meaning of life and then attempt to fulfill it in some way that gives meaning to their lives and ah I think the phrase that's used "to die without a cause" is the greatest tragedy. And if quite young as my one granddaughter is to be a doctor another one to be a lawyer finds a cause which really challenges them. Because one is doing it for Health the other for Justice. That then life has meaning even if there are disappointments one is always committed to that cause. It was a great belief that the first word was spoken by God and the last

word will be with God because He will not be mocked. And somehow the evil destroys itself and therefore in the end we must have ah a ways that are better than any ways we have yet dreamed because we believe it. If we do believe that they are in the purposes of God who created from the beginning. What De Chardin calls the purposeful evolution to the fulfillment of the end which I believe is a more perfect society. (Host) I think Mrs. Sibley we're going to end it right there because that was a beautiful piece of advice for all of us. Ah You're optimistic. (Mrs. S.) I am. (Host) About everything and I think that would make us all happy to have that the same optimism, (Mrs. S.) Don't think I don't know the realism of the other.(Host) the same joie de vivre that you have. other. Oh thank you!(Host) You've been just delightful today. (Mrs. S.)You're terrific.

Oh you're terrific. This has been an interview with Mrs. Harper Sibley at WXXI presentation recorded on April 1st 1974.