Louisiana Legends; Andrew Schally

Announcer: Funding for the production of Louisiana Legends is provided in part by the Friends of Louisiana Public Broadcasting and by Union National Life Insurance, a Louisiana company serving Louisiana and the South since 1926. Weill: Hello. My guest is Dr. Andrew Victor Schally. And chances are

that name doesn't strike a chord in most of you. And if you look at Dr. Schally, and we'll try not embarrass him, he looks like most of us. I've been chatting with him. He's a very pleasant man, just another guy. Well, not quite, because in 1977 Dr. Schally was sitting in his home or probably sleeping at his home in Metairie, in suburban New Orleans. And then about 6:05 in the morning, the telephone rang. Dr. Schally, tell us what happened. Schally: Well, my wife, is a physician and I normally leave for the Veterans Administration Hospital in the Tulane Medical Center around 6:10, 6:15 in the morning. So as you said, telephone rang and my wife took the call. She said, "It's for you." and then I heard, I realized this was a telephone call from Stockholm and a person identified himself as a member of the Nobel Prize Committee in Medicine and

said, "Congratulations to the new winner." Weill: You had won the Nobel Prize. What was the feeling, doctor? Schally: I was very proud, very grateful to the Committee and very very much moved by the fact that I was awarded the Nobel Prize in Medicine because many scientists can do excellent work and toil for 15 hours hours a day. But relatively few win the highest award which exists in the scientific and medical world. I was deeply moved. My wife said, "Let's drive to the hospital." You get emotional, of course. Weill: Doctor, tell us about that ceremony in Stockholm. Schally: Well, Nobel Prize has some

85 years of tradition. I think it was instituted in 1898. Therefore the Swedes have developed, have gained much experience. And their organization, how to run the Nobel show. It's a very moving ceremony. It consists of several days of lectures, banquets, receptions. Perhaps the highest point of which is the Nobel Prize ceremony which, in the presence of dignitaries, ambassadors, and and finalists of the winners. The King of Sweden, the presence of the Queen and the royal family award the Nobel Prize medal, 300 grams of gold by the way, and the

citation to the winner. That is, the ceremonies for the Nobel Prize in medicine, physics, chemistry and literature take place in Stockholm. The ceremony for the Nobel Peace Prize takes place in Oslo, Norway. So it's a beautiful ceremony, which is of course [inaudible] before with. Weill: Did winning this prize change your life? Schally: Oh, yes, very much so. The Committee warned me that sometimes I'll feel like giving it back to them. I seem to have so many obligations and to the Society, to medicine, and I receive so many invitations. People try to involve me in so many activities, some of which are, are against my principles. So life is not easy and the first thing I have to learn is how to say 'No' because, had I accepted all the

tasks that people tried to impose upon me, I would have been a dead man in spite of my excellent health. Weill: Doctor, Schally: so you have to say 'No.' People ask me to see those kinds of diseases. And I'm a specialist in just one area, the gland. Weill: Doctor, in the most simple terms, as you would explain it to a child, what did your work consist of for which you received this highest award that our society can bestow? Schally: Well, my work in the field started in Canada when I was still a graduate, undergraduate and then graduate student. The pituitary gland is a master. It was called a master gland. It was well known since the 1920s that it controls the other glands in the body which are sex glands, the

testes, the adrenal gland, the thyroid and so forth. But in turn, people visualized that the pituitary, itself, could be controlled by some system and there are many theories as to its control. As a student, I began to favor one theory which said that brain contains a certain section called the hypothalmus and this section, by means of chemical messengers hormones, controls the pituitary gland. The support for this theory at a time when I was a student was a very weak one so I embarked upon a long-term program with the first 3 or 4 years of which took part in Canada, 5 years in Texas and finally, let's see, some 15

years in Louisiana. And we succeeded in providing the experimental proof that certain hormones exist in that part of the brain which control the so-called master gland and through it control the other endocrine glands in the body. In simple words we proved that hormones exist in the body which control, via the pituitary and other glands all, virtually all the bodily function. Weill: Now what might be, from your discovery, what might be some practical applications. You see, we laymen. We, er, er er, we see man walk on the moon. We see man fly about in space. And we're paying the bill for it, the taxpayer. And at some point we say well that's magnificent and I'm glad that he got to walk on the moon and I'm glad that he's 26 miles above the

Earth. But how is this going to affect our lives? Now, what might be some practical applications of your discovery? Schally: Well, there is a number of practical applications. For example, as early as one or two years after the first phase of my work, which led to a hormone called trh, it became apparent to clinicians that, using my hormone, they can use a better diagnosis of thyroid diseases. The uses are uses of our discoveries of both diagnostic to better diagnose the disease, as well as therapeutics, so clinicians all over the world have been using since 1971 the first hormone to be discovered, called trh, for better diagnosis of thyroid diseases and thyroid diseases constitute the majority of the endocrine

diseases. Another important application is birth control. Not all methods of birth control are fully satisfactory and perhaps my one of my greatest discoveries was another brain hormone called the LHRH. It became apparent to us that through this hormone, we can stimulate fertility, as well as inhibit it. So important new methods of birth control are being developed based on this second discovery, LHRH, and governments and birth control agencies and WHO (World Health Organization), are very much interested because that is a pattern and, at least for the time being, the best method for birth control may happen to be based on this brain hormone when we came up with it.

Weill: Doctor, how does a research scientist work? For example, Is he like in the science fiction movies? Is he a man who stands over Bunsen burners and bubbling test tubes? Does he work at a computer? Is he a theoretician who sits as we envision Einstein with pencil and pad? How does a great research scientist work? Schally: Well, every scientist has his own method. First a theory has to be conceived, a certain working assumption. In my case, the assumption was the brain, that there are some chemical substances called hormones in the brain. So the scientist has to formulate first a working hypothesis, then using the most modern methods, which are very expensive, which require a highly trained team of collaborators. I was very fortunate as far as these collaborators went to have some very excellent ones, some of whom are still working with me. So using, working collaboration with a highly trained team,

and using the most modern equipment and killing say 40,000 rats and other animals per year, obtain the proof. As to the validity or lack of validity of this or has hypothesis, so the smartest scientist has to be a fully realistic, has to be a business manager because money is short. He has to learn how to use his money wisely. And also he has to know how to statistics to prove that the outcome of the experiments is valid to be accepted according to the modern levels of medical testing. Weill: How important is a computer, for example, to your work? Computers save us an awful lot of time. Fifteen years ago we had to use manual calculators. Now, we do certain biological tests and each test has a program so that my collaborators put the

program in the computer. In a few minutes, they have the answer -- the calculations and everything. So it saves us an awful lot of time. But we don't, we could never conceive of theory based on a computer. The computer is just one of the tools we use for calculations. Weill: Is the theoretical part, that is, when you arrived at the original concept, the brain is secreting hormones, the basic concept. Was that mostly out of your head? Schally: Oh, yes. At that time computers didn't exist or perhaps they existed for the defense organizations of primitive computers, but this was strictly a theoretical concept based on the work of others. Weill: During the 21 years that you followed this theory, what, were you ever discouraged and said, "I'm wrong. I've made an error." Did you ever feel like a damn fool, in

other words? No. I had great confidence that my theory was correct. Everything says the faithful experiment, but check it out. An undergraduate student in 1954. Everything indicated to me that such hormones must exist. Weill: Doctor, we are all familiar with the Oscar Meyer wiener commercial on television. Oscar Meyer, the meat packing company, played a very important role in your work. Would you tell us that? Schally: Yes, yes, indeed. Well, you could say working on the project of obtaining brain hormones we needed tissue of origin, and so we quickly realized that we needed hundreds of thousands, and I mean hundreds of thousands, of brains. Our competitors, in fact, used millions of brains. We were somewhat more

efficient and we had less funds [Weill laughs] to be satisfied with some half a million pig hypothalami. And we trained students, we designed a special sharp spoon, and the students at the Oscar Meyer plant in Madison, Wisconsin, after this cow is split off and when the pigs, slaughtered pigs, move along the assembly line would use this instrument to remove the area of the brain we were interested in, and Oscar Meyer graciously would freeze it and then freeze dry it and ship it to us completely protected in a dry state and vacuum thermos bottles. So they were...Oscar Meyer was very important in providing us the tissue, the brain tissue. Weill: So while the rest of Louisiana was busily using boudin, Dr. Schally was using the pig's brains so nothing went to waste. Let me ask you

this. Was there a moment in the lab when you said, "That's it. I'm right. We've proven it. I've got it." Was it a moment or was it a slow evolutionary process? Schally: It was slow evolutionary process, Gus, which required quite a bit of backbreaking and frustrating work. You asked me whether I lost, if I ever lost faith in the validity of my concept. I never lost my faith, but, of course, such work is surrounded with frustrations and it's very difficult. So there are several such moments because we don't work with one substance, we dealt with several substances, each one of which is an entity, a chemical entity. Weill: How do you handle it? How did you handle the failures along the way? How do you handle disappointment?

Well, we simply have to decide to try again. And try again. It wasn't easy. Even NIH was discouraged at one time or another, I think 1969 or '70. They even planned to cut our funds and, without funds, you cannot do any work. But I was very lucky the Veterans Administration, for example, generously supported our research. Now there's another Dr. Schally in your family, Mrs. Schally. Yes! Can you tell us what part she plays in your work? My wife, Anna Maria, is an outstanding clinician. Working in research, one has to travel abroad in order to meet other leaders in the field. So I made many trips to Mexico. I made several trips to Brazil to talk to other clinicians, to provide them with some of our substances. And

my wife obtained a sample of some of the hormones we make here in Louisiana and carried out very outstanding work in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. So I was very much impressed not only by her beauty which was obvious, but the medical quality of her work and the enthusiasm for medicine, endocrinology. Endocrinology is a branch of medicine specifically deals with our work. So the romance started and continued through many other medical meetings in Brazil, in Europe. My wife was invited repeatedly to Europe to discuss her work there. It finally led to marriage. Weill: Doctor, when I was reading the research material on your life and your career, I read something that astonished me.

It said that only after you received the Nobel Prize, were you accepted in the National Academy of Science. Now that makes the National Academy of Science look just a little bit maybe annoying? uninformed? Schally: Gus, you picked up a very, very good point. Let me say this. I have much affection, for example, for Mexico and Brazil. Brazil because of my wife, the beauty of the country in Mexico. Because the Mexican physicians recognized the possible medical validity and the possible medical applications of much of my work much earlier than National Academy of Sciences and earlier than the United States physician would do. So the medical National Academy of Sciences is a very selective organization and the Mexicans made me a member of their Academy of Medicine in 1972, some six years

before I was accepted into the United States Academy of Sciences. It's sad. A prophet is a prophet everywhere except in this country. Weill: Doctor, I must ask you this because it's a question that affects almost every family some kind of way. We're in 1983. In our lifetime, will we make a serious dent in the cure of cancer? Schally: Well, we hope so, Gus. Much money is being spent. A number of brilliant scientists is working on this extremely difficult topic, but cancer is not one disease or conglomeration. It's a group of diseases consisting, perhaps of as many as several hundred syndromes. So one has to separate, for example, leukemia and Hodgkin's disease from

lung cancer, which is the leading killer for men and women, and from hormone-dependent cancer. So the type of cancer which my wife and my collaborators and I are working on. So we have become extremely interested in some types of cancer which is hormone- dependent. And we've had, we've carried out much basic work and recently quite a bit of clinical work. So we are working on an area of cancer and I can only speak for that area. Weill: Doctor, I think that most of us assume that research is going on in a beautiful laboratory with a golf course outside the window, and I think it would fascinate our audience to know that most of your work has been done in a laboratory between the Superdome and those elevated freeways. Now that can't be the optimum conditions for deep thinking.

Schally: Well, there are many elegant institutions such as Salk Institute, M.D. Anderson Hospital, Cancer and Tumor Institute in Houston. But the work which which emanates from a research laboratory is not necessarily linked to the beauty of its architecture. [Weill laughs] Weill: Touché. Doctor, what's next for you? What will you work on now? Schally: Well, I feel that because of my intense interest in cancer and because of the lucky stroke of fortune that I was recognized for the Nobel Prize in Medicine at a relatively early age for a scientist, and because of a certain measure of success we've received, and we've encountered, in investigating certain types of cancer, I want to devote at least 50

percent of my time to basic and clinical investigations on certain types of cancer which are hormone-dependent, namely prostate cancer, breast cancer, some types of bone tumors, some type of tumors of the pancreas. The work is very exciting and has been quite successful. Nearly 1,000 patients all over the world are being treated for prostate cancer with a method which we developed in Louisiana. We are very proud of it. Weill: Now, what does Andrew Victor Schally, Nobel Prize winner, do when he goes home? Do you take papers with you? Books? Test tubes? What do you do at home? Well, after working very, very hard -- I mean to the point of complete mental exhaustion for 12 hours a day -- I'm totally drained and just shot mental battery. So I like to do a vigorous physical

exercise which includes swimming and weight lifting and so forth, and then I have to keep track of the world's events, Watch the television, read the newspapers. My wife and I simply relax. Weill: You don't talk work at home? Schally: Very, very seldom. We enjoy cooking. We're both very good cooks. Weill: Do you like the New Orleans food? Schally: Yes, my wife loves it. Weill: Doctor, what other attributes does a man or woman need to be a research scientist, in addition to great patience? What would you say would be the main? Schally: As you said, patience might be the primary quality. Also an awful lot of devotion is necessary and the confidence in one's theory or concept of Education. I was fortunate I was trained in England by several Nobel Prize winners.

I was trained in Sweden by some outstanding scientists; in Canada. But I worked in mental hospitals as an endocrinologist. I became acquainted there with all the possible implications, not only of the mental illness, but of endocrinology and glands. Then I was trained in Houston. So it's, it takes universal training, the ability to communicate with others, the ability to speak foreign languages. And, above all, practicality. Money is so short you have to use the meager funds one has. Weill: So you spend a good part of your time managing a buck. Schally: Well, fighting for that. We have accountants, we have. Weill: How many people on your staff now? Oh, about 25 and some are experts in running the budgets who help me how to plan my budget for personnel, which is

a major expenditure; for animals, for chemicals. So the scientist has to fight for funds. By fighting, I mean apply, send grant applications proposing certain work, primarily to government institutions and other institutions such as World Health Organization or birth control foundations and so forth. So I call this fight for funds and it's a fight that's not always successful. Weill: Doctor, I want to thank you and Mrs. Schally for being with us today. She was, joined us earlier er- And thank you for what you are attempting to do for the rest of us, those hours spent in that laboratory, those computations and so on, perhaps mean a better and a longer and just a good life for the rest of mankind and surely no man could devote

his life to a more noble cause and I thank you. Schally: Thank you very much, Gus. It's been a great pleasure. [music] Announcer: Funding for the production of Louisiana Legends is provided in part by the Friends of Louisiana Public Broadcasting and by Union National Life Insurance, a

Louisiana company serving Louisiana and the South since 1926.