The Great Depression; Interview with Augustus Hawkins. Part 2

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Mark.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, so I showed you all that, that anti-Sinclair prop, stuff, did you think that propaganda was fair?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

During the so-called EPIC Movement in California, and the candidacy of Upton Sinclair, I would conclude that the state was shocked and highly motivated, in reaction to the type of thing that was done in politics at that time. Upton Sinclair was a very believable type of individual, but he was not a convincing politician as such, and I think that people were not quite ready for the type of statements that were being made. So it was fairly easy to scapegoat things by portraying Upton Sinclair as a Communist, even beyond being a Socialist. People were not quite ready for change. The minorities, who had recently made some gains, were obviously conservative in trying to protect those gains, and so Upton Sinclair, as far as the minority community, for example, did not make many inroads. Obviously, the role of the minister in many communities was a great influence, and by and large, the organized churches, organized religion, was heavily against Upton Sinclair, so that was a real force throughout the state. But the type of things that were circulated is hardly believable. There was, the whole idea of the state was, if Upton Sinclair was elected, California would almost sink into the ocean. I think the propaganda was such that eventually, it was just too much to overcome. There are those who say also that some of the elections were manipulated in certain areas, and I wouldn't doubt at all that ballot boxes were changed in conservative areas where they could get away with it.

There was a determination that Upton Sinclair was not going to be allowed to win, and he didn't. But the fortunate part of it was, that a lot of

good people, rather liberal,

forward-looking people, were elected at that time.

I recall that Culbert Olson became governor, later, because he was elected a state senator in the Sinclair landslide, and he built on that and became governor of the state, and proved to be a good governor.

INTERVIEWER:

Right, right, OK.

INTERVIEWER #2:

Actually, could I ask you repeat one [unintelligible], it was very noisy in it, you were talking about minorities who made gains during that time period tended to be more conservative? Can you talk about that again? Because there was a lot of street, and honking behind it.

INTERVIEWER:

Do you remember what you said?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

We were talking—

INTERVIEWER #2:

I can, I can refresh your memory, you were saying that many people were not ready for the kind of changes that Sinclair proposed—

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

Oh.

INTERVIEWER #2:

And in the minority communities where people had made, recently made some gains were conservative and wanted to protect them.

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

Yeah, in the period of the mid-30's, when minorities were beginning to get a toehold on the state, in terms of political office, in terms of breaking down discrimination in the unions, when they were beginning to become judges for the first time, and to be integrated into the postal service, that they were, in a sense, becoming middle-class. And, as such, we had a movement that blacks becoming more conservative, politically, and not the type—

they were getting a piece of the action, and they wanted to protect it. I suspect that many, just becoming a part of the middle-class, also did not enter into the EPIC Movement

as such. Professionals tended not to be supportive of the EPIC Movement. I recall that my own brother was a practicing physician, and to him, Upton Sinclair favored socialized medicine, and I recall that I went into one of the Sinclair headquarters, invited to give my own views because I was a candidate, I indicated that I favored a pre-paid health insurance, but not the socialization of medicine. I recall that as a result of that, I was not supported by, not endorsed by the EPIC Movement. In the primaries, after I won my primary, in the final analysis I was a part of the Democratic ticket, but not in the primary, and I think that illustrates the conservative trend that was developing at that time.

INTERVIEWER:

So, you weren't, you weren't an EPIC endorsed candidate, but they seem to have claimed you in their victory-

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

Well, all of those who became Democratic nominees were a part of the so-called \"EPIC ticket\" in the general election, and that is the way it came about. I was not opposed to the Sinclair movement, I just did not take a real position on it, and as I say, because of one or two issues that I had expressed myself on, I was not endorsed by Upton Sinclair in my primary election.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, generally, just to repeat, go over something that you said in the middle of another question, blacks didn't respond very well to Upton Sinclair?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

As to whether or not blacks as such responded to the Upton Sinclair movement, I would say that it was very, very lukewarm. They were just becoming Democrats, and I think that that change was fast enough for them, for most of them, they weren't about to change from the Republican Party to the Democratic Party, and then overnight become allied with what was termed a Socialist movement. It was just too shockingly quick. I think that in the final analysis, they voted for the Sinclair ticket in the general election, but that's because they were then becoming strong Democrats, and their economic conditions made them more allied with the new Party, even though Sinclair was a part of it, than with the older party. And consequently, I would say that the support of Sinclair in the black community was lukewarm. The ministers, who exercised quite an influence, were not pro-Sinclair.

INTERVIEWER:

Were they anti-Sinclair?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

Well, you can phrase it as being anti-Sinclair, I would not go that far. I would say that they were supporters of the Democratic ticket, and more a matter of splitting that ticket than it was a matter of being strongly anti-Sinclair.

INTERVIEWER:

OK. Did, did Socialism scare the members of the black community?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

The black community has never been really scared by Socialism, and I'm not trying to identify necessarily that voting for or against the EPIC Movement on the basis of the fear of Socialism. Socialism, during those days, was not a great [inaudible]

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

And audio ran out. There is no more audio left.

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Marker.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, let's talk about what attracted the blacks, or what didn't attract blacks to the EPIC Movement, and that they were attracted to the Democratic Party.

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

Ready?

INTERVIEWER:

Mm-hm.

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

Well, let me state in terms of that particular time and the politics of that particular time, it was not a separate movement as such, but we had several movements that coincided.

Blacks

as such

were not attracted to the EPIC Movement as such,

they were never a strong part of it; the leaders were not, let us say, involved in the movement. The movement had very few minority leaders as such, as a part of the EPIC Movement. But blacks were changing, they were becoming Democrats, and the election was not only an election that featured Upton Sinclair, but it featured a lot of other candidates, including myself, as an example, as a Democrat, and I was running as a Democrat—

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

—who happened to be on a ticket with Mr. Sinclair in the run-off, but the whole—

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Sorry, we just ran out.

INTERVIEWER:

We ran out, we ran out of film.

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

Wait for my mark, call, thank you—mark. Second to mark.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, so tell me about you running as a Democrat. Explain how you weren't necessarily an EPIC candidate.

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

During the EPIC Movement in California, let me make it clear that I was not actually running as an EPIC candidate, I was never a strong EPIC supporter, no particular reason, I had no ideological objection to most of the program. I was, however, a Democrat, a new Democrat, who was running as a Democratic candidate. It was tough convincing many of my friends and supporters, as a Democrat, that that was the right thing to do, but I just happened to be a Democrat, and I ran as a Democrat, and while I disagreed with one or two things in the EPIC Movement, it doesn't say, doesn't mean, that I was opposed to the whole idea of changing things across the state. There were many things that needed changing. And so it just happened, we just happened to converge. I think one must put into proper perspective, that that was not the only thing that was happening, particularly in the minority community.

Minority was just beginning to break through many barriers. In those days, we had a terrific time to get a black judge elected, the first one in the state, the first supervisor in the post office,

the first woman, black woman in the post office,

and so forth,

and all of these things were happening at the same time as the EPIC Movement was happening, so it was not a monolithic community, it was a community that was undergoing a great transition, and as such, people, I think, I think a majority did vote Democratic, and consequently, for the EPIC ticket. And so those two coincided rather than one being the cause of the other.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, thank you. When Social Security passed, oh, let me ask you about, I have one more EPIC question, did you hear about some of the scare tactics that were used for businesses?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

During the EPIC Campaign, I think that most of us do recall the tremendous pressure that was put on everybody, throughout the state, to oppose Upton Sinclair at least, the top of the ticket. I recall that in business after business, throughout industry, employers would call their employees in just before the election and say, now look, if Upton Sinclair is elected, you're not gonna have a job. I can recall that in many household, blacks who were in service, and that was a great number of them, were told that, if Mr. Sinclair is elected, I won't be able to hire you to continue in employment. And that type of pressure was throughout the state, and that was a tremendous dis-incentive to vote for the top of the ticket.

INTERVIEWER:

OK. All right. Social Security. Why did African-Americans feel so happy when Roosevelt signed the Social Security bill?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

For a long time, African-Americans were not the ones who enjoyed government benefits. They had been denied this in the Deep South, and even in the north, and also in the West. The idea of the government helping them was somewhat foreign. In 1935, when the Social Security Act was passed, I think one must remember that the Act included not only protection for the elderly, but it also began protection for children. For the first time, child aid became a reality, and that was an important part of the Act for blacks, and the Act also provided help for the disabled, and led also to such later programs as Medicare and Medicaid, and whatnot, and these were tremendous benefits to the black community which had been denied them, even when they had been offered to others. But for the first time, everyone enjoyed the benefits of something, under the Social Security Act, and I think that to blacks it was a great life-saver. It's pretty difficult to visualize what type of security people didn't have, in those days. Instead of Social Security, the elderly were confined to what we call, then, 'the poor houses', it was a place that was set aside for the elderly, where they were, in a sense, incarcerated, in a poor house, when they became elderly. The mental cases were actually locked up, those who did not have families, and families, the families just put their mental patients in a—

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

—in a room—

INTERVIEWER:

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

This is take eight.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, so, once again if you could tell me why African-Americans felt very happy about the passage of Social Security.

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

With the adoption of Social Security in 1935, to blacks it was almost like the Emancipation Proclamation, or something comparable, or something like the Magna Carta in the English tradition. For the first time, blacks considered themselves, having something which others had, and which was guaranteed to them, which could not be denied. Everything that happened that was good was somehow denied to African-Americans, but under the Social Security Act, there was no such distinction made, and so it was a real breakthrough. To them, it simply mean, meant, at that time, that as they grew older, they knew that they would gain this as a matter of right. They knew that their children, under childcare, which later became the AFDC and Medicaid, and so forth, they knew that this was an opportunity that they could pass on to the next generation. So it was revolutionary, and a great, great day, not only in American life but I think an outstanding day, similar to the Emancipation Proclamation among African-Americans.

INTERVIEWER:

OK, were folks angry that domestic workers were left out of this, though?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

At first, obviously, there was this omission, there was the omission of domestic workers, but that was soon repaired, and on the state level we moved to do it, we moved to get those benefits for domestics on the state level. But at that time, and later, obviously, domestic service was not as important to blacks as other occupations, and are we getting, sort of anticipating a later period, when domestic service was no longer the major activity or source of income for black Americans.

INTERVIEWER:

Can we cut a second, please?

INTERVIEWER:

OK, 1934, what were your hopes and fears, your personal hopes and fears?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

In 1934, we in the state were highly involved in civil rights, I would say that we had a civil rights movement prior to the one in the 60's. I have indicated that there were signs throughout the state that indicated that blacks were not welcome in places of public accommodation. Traveling was a problem, at first it was directed against the Chinese, Orientals, who could not ride street-cars in some places throughout the state. At that time we moved to strengthen our civil rights act, we had a civil rights act in California very early, but it was not very strong and it was very poorly enforced. So we moved to strengthen that, and I would say, in the period from about '32 to about '40, that the great impetus was in strengthening the Civil Rights Act. We were not as much concerned with other issues as we were with the one, great issue of civil rights.

INTERVIEWER:

Was this your personal feel- hope?

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

It was my personal hope that, as a member of the state legislature, we could strengthen the act, so that we could in effect allow minorities to ride undisturbed on street-cars, to testify in the courts where white persons were concerned, in order to break down segregation in the schools, the schools were highly segregated, and also—

AUGUSTUS HAWKINS:

—we were just starting out to strengthen the law which would protect minorities against restrictive covenants. They couldn't buy in certain neighborhoods, because they were restricted.

CAMERA CREW MEMBER:

OK, we're out of, we're out of film for right now.

INTERVIEWER:

Oh.