Eyes on the Prize; Interview with James L. Hicks

[camera roll 137] [sound roll 1115] [slate] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: SOUND NUMBER ONE. [sync tone] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: OK. INTERVIEWER 1: GOOD? OK. THE FIRST THING I WANTED TO ASK YOU WAS, YOU WERE A VETERAN IN WORLD WAR II AND YOU TOLD US WHEN YOU CAME BACK THAT THE BLACK VETS FELT A LOT LIKE THE VIETNAM VETS. THEY HAD SOME, SOME DEEP FEELINGS BUT THEY DIDN'T REALLY EXPRESS THEM. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT AND CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE INFLUENCE THAT RETURNING BLACK VETERANS HAD ON THE, ON THE COMMUNITY AFTER WORLD WAR II? Hicks: Well, I, I think that to begin with the veterans of World War II, when they returned they had their a, that is, the black veterans that they were really an influence and so much so that they were activists and they had been trained and, of course, when they said no more of this Jim Crow or what have you, that the people picked it up, that is the black people, and they, I think, that they set the tone for what came later with King and the, and the rest of us. That is following King, I mean, he knew that he had some truth. INTERVIEWER 1: WHAT DO YOU THINK IT WAS THAT MADE THE, THE BLACK VETERANS SO, SO ACTIVE? Hicks: Well, being over there, and moving in concert with whites, so that when somebody said, let's do it, they were, they were trained to get up and do it. So that when they came back from overseas, they automatically--some of those who possessed leadership would step into the knots where the officers had been and they would take over and say let's do it. And the people who had been denied leadership or--but who were real leaders fall--fell right in and say, let's do it. INTERVIEWER 2: CAN WE CUT FOR A MOMENT? CAN WE CUT FOR A MOMENT? CAMERA CREW MEMBER: WE WANT A CUT? INTERVIEWER 2: YES PLEASE. INTERVIEWER 1: YES, YES. [cut]

CAMERA CREW MEMBER: NUMBER TWO. [sync tone] INTERVIEWER 1: I'M GONNA ASK YOU THE SAME QUESTION. CAMERA CREW MEMBER: OK. INTERVIEWER 1: --THE SUBJECT. YOU WERE A VETERAN OF WORLD WAR II AND YOU WERE TELLING ME ABOUT THE WAY THE BLACK VETERANS FELT AFTER WORLD WAR II. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT FOR ME, WHAT YOU AND OTHER BLACK VETERANS FELT AFTER THE WAR AND THE, THE INFLUENCE THAT THEY HAD ON THE COMMUNITY? Hicks: Well, I was a veteran and I spent three years overseas in New Guinea, and I became an officer during that period and I had been eager to exercise what I considered authority and when I got authority, I mean, it was spit and polish and we--I was put back into the same unit that I had been serving as a first sergeant in and the--I was tough on the men and the men respected me because we were the only off--I was the only officer back there in that period in the, in New Guinea. So when we got out, it was just one more step to say, well, look, we aren't going to take this anymore. [laughs] And a, believe me, a it--I knew that I had some followers and this was something that was understood by officers, you take the 369th and the 332nd, these people were officer material and they--when they said, you guys come on, well, they were talking to people who had been serving under white officers and, and without question so when they said, follow me, there was no question about it. The veterans would follow them and, and pretty soon we looked around and there were civilians that came under influence and they, they picked up on it because said, he knows, he, he's, lets get behind him and, I think, that this is why so many people in the Air Forces for instance, got in top level positions because it was not only them, but it was the veterans behind them that would back them up in civilian life.

INTERVIEWER 1: DO YOU THINK THERE WAS A LOT OF RESENTMENT AMONG THE BLACK VETS WHEN THEY CAME BACK? Hicks: Oh, yes. Simply because-- INTERVIEWER 2: EXCUSE ME. YOU--HAVE YOU INCORPORATE THE, THE ANSWER. Hicks: Oh, yes. Well, you asked me if there was resentment, I think that there was extreme ex--resentment because they felt that I paid my dues over there and now I'm not gonna take this anymore over here. Cause that was a war time and now its peace time and we're just going to--I'll get myself ten men and straighten this thing out.

INTERVIEWER 1: OK, GOOD. NOW GETTING BACK TO THE TIME PERIOD OF THE '50s, WHEN YOU SET OUT AS A REPORTER TO COVER THE TILL TRIAL. WHAT KIND OF PRECAUTIONS DID YOU TAKE BEFORE GOING INTO THE SOUTH? CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US, WHAT IT WAS LIKE FOR BLACKS IN THE SOUTH AT THAT TIME. Hicks: Well, you asked me how--what situations that we encountered going in during--after the war? This was a situation that we, we sighted [sic] up, one of the greatest editors I've ever seen, who, he was a black man, who was trained in Heidelberg for some reason, I don't know, but he was the, he was the publisher and editor of the Afro-American papers and one of the rays on--one of the things that we agreed upon was that, number one, if I were going to a city or town wit--that was loaded with race hatred that the first report that I would get into was to go to the FBI office and ask them, could I make a phone call from there? I mean I would ask them, what was the situ--what was the situation regarding so and so and so and so, but the point of actually visiting was that I would ask the agent to allow me to use his phone and then I would call Carl Murphy in Baltimore and I would say that I'm in the FBI office and I, I wanted to know so and so, and so and so, and we'd go ahead on with that. So he said, he would say, you in the FBI office? And you in Memphis? Or wherever it was, that I was there, and this would be recorded and so that when and if I would disappear, the paper would be able to say the last word that I heard from him was that he was in the offices of the FBI. And this was something that worked out to a good degree because I think the FBI knew what we were doing at, at that time. INTERVIEWER 1: WELL JUST HOW, HOW DANGEROUS WAS IT FOR, FOR BLACKS TO COME DOWN TO THE SOUTH? Hicks: Well, it was, course you got, you, you must remember that there were blacks there all the time in the South, and--but it was danger because if you were gonna be a uppity nigger, as they called you down there, it, it was something that--you were something that a thorn in their side and they would try to get rid of you by peaceful means. Get out of town! Or violent means through the Klan or the Citizens' or you--Citizens' clubs that they have down there that, you, you would a, become discouraged if you didn't have stamina and guts. So, it was difficult, because, I mean, I think that the, the Chaney case illustrates that, that the, you know, the three fellows that disappeared in three Freedom Riders, one of them was black, and, I mean, that they found them eventually in the, in the bayous of Mississippi.

INTERVIEWER 1: YOU WERE TELLING ME SOMETHING ABOUT THE DEER BEING OUT OF SEASON AND THAT BEING A QUESTION. CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THAT? Hicks: Yeah, well I, the a, that was Dr. T.R.M. Howard and he told me when I first went into Mississippi that people down there, the white men down there, didn't think any more about killing a black man than they did about shooting a deer out of season. And I, I was shocked and, I said, you're, you're kidding aren't you? And he said, no, no, no I'm not kidding. And later on, I mean, doing the Emmett Till trial, I mean, I, I saw that. I mean, I, I understood it that this was something that, I mean, this was like well, you know, what his crime was, I mean, he had some change and in that store it wasn't--you didn't touch a white woman, even hand to hand, so he, he did like that to give--to take the change from her hand and, I mean--

[cut] [wild audio] Hicks: --that was just--she told her husband, and what they do, they come and got him. They came in the middle of the night and got him. INTERVIEWER 1: HOLD, HOLD ON JUST A SECOND. 00:11:12:00 [cut] [slate] [change to camera roll 138] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: SOUND THREE. [sync tone] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: THANK YOU. OK. INTERVIEWER 1: I WANT TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT THE TILL TRIAL AND EVENTS THAT WERE HAPPENING THERE AND IN MONEY, MISSISSIPPI. FIRST OF ALL WHY WAS THE NATIONAL PRESS ATTRACTED TO THIS PARTICULAR STORY? THERE'D BEEN HUNDREDS OF LYNCHINGS OF BLACK PEOPLE BEFORE THIS HAD BEEN COVERED, WHY, WHY THIS STORY NOW? Hicks: Well, I think that the Till case aroused the suspicion, the--angered people, both sides because there had been a thrust of black people in that area, because the Freedom Rides were going on and everything. 00:12:12:00 [cut] [wild audio] INTERVIEWER 2: YEAH STOP. CAMERA CREW MEMBER: YES. INTERVIEWER 2: I'M SORRY YOU'RE JUMPING IN TIME BETWEEN-- INTERVIEWER 1: YEAH. FREEDOM RIDES WERE A LITTLE-- 00:12:18:00 [cut] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: SOUND ROLL ELEVEN-SIXTEEN. CAMERA ROLL ONE THIRTY EIGHT CONTINUOUS. SOUND FOUR. [sync tone] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: READY. INTERVIEWER 1: ALL RIGHT. WELL, I'D LIKE TO GO DIRECTLY THE TRIAL ITSELF. CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US IN, IN, IN SENSE OF WORD PICTURES WHAT THE TRIAL WAS LIKE AND, AND THE WAY IT WAS RUN IN THE COURTROOM, THE SENSE OF IT. Hicks: I can describe what happened in the trial, in the Till case, the trial, the two races and this to me was unbelievable in, in many respects because I had covered courts all over this nation, but I never saw anything like the Till case before. And it, it was stemmed from-- number one, it was a segregated courtroom and the veteran whites, the white veterans, were all deputized. The press table was denied the black press, we had to sit at a bridge table far off from the jury and the-- CAMERA CREW MEMBER: STOP. WE GOTTA PICK ONE. [cut]

[sync tone] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: THANK YOU. INTERVIEWER 1: START WHERE YOU JUST STARTED. BEGIN DESCRIBING THE-- Hicks: Well, you asked me about the, the Till case, the--I had covered the courts in many, areas of this country, but the Trill--the Till case was unbelievable. I mean, I just didn't get the sense of being in a courtroom. Because it was, first place, segregated. And the press itself was, the black press, sat at a bridge table far off from the court. The jury itself plus the judge and whereas the, the white press sat right under the judge and the jury. I--right up front at a, at a reserved section there. We had a bridge table, and I had the displeasure of seeing not only us and the boy's mother came down. They sat her there at the, at the bridge table with us. Plus, the United States Congressman, at that time Diggs, he came down, and I was the one that got him in because he, the, the sheriff wouldn't let him in. He had sent a telegram to the judge to say, I'd like to come down and observe this [coughs] see the trial. The judge was the, was the one white person that--he appeared to be fair minded. So he wired Diggs back and told him that, come on down and you'll be welcomed. Well, there came a recess in court and everybody went outside. The whites went to the right side to wait till the court opened again. And the blacks went to the left side. So while we're out there standing, in the meantime, the, the, the local people who would try to get in, they had to stand back until the whites came in and filled up the place then they sat in the back of the courtroom. Now this court room was a, was a huge place compared to that town. It was, it was probably the biggest building, certainly, that--in the section that I saw, was the biggest building in there. And the, the courtroom occupied more or less the whole floor. So when this, when the people start coming, they fill up the whites then the blacks would fill up what's left. When Diggs came down the room was filled. He couldn't get in. And so he, when--at recess time he came by and he said, I knew him before so, he said, Hicks, can you get into the courtroom? He said--I said, yes I'm in there all the time but I was Jim-Crowed. And he said, well look, I, I would like to have this judge give, give my card. Take my card up there and tell him that, that I wrote to--I wired him from Michigan, you see. So he gave me his card when the court opened I went straight up and started for the Judge's bench. He hadn't come in yet, but on the way up to the bench I was stopped by one of these veterans who had been deputized. And he said, where you goin' nigger? And I said, I want to see the judge. And I said, there's--I pulled open the--my coat pocket and there I had Diggs' card in it. I was going to hand it to the judge but I mean OK he challenged me, so I said, you give it to him, then. So he said, just a minute, just a minute. He called another deputy over and this was, it, it, it took place, I wrote this, this was something that I've never seen, I've never--had really seen it before. He said to me or he said to the deputy that he called over, he said, this nigger here said there's a nigger outside who says that he's a congressman, and he has corresponded with the judge, and the judge has told him to come on down, and, he would let him in, he said, but, the, sheriff won't let him in, so he's sending his card up there. So, this guy said, a nigger congressman? And he says, that's what this nigger says. [laughs] I said to myself, my God, I have never seen anything like this in my life. And we, we, we, so he went then to the sheriff and the sheriff says, I'll bring him in here but I'm going to sit him at your niggers' table. And, I mean, when he brought Diggs in, that's where he sat him, right there at the table. INTERVIEWER 2: CAN WE CUT PLEASE? INTERVIEWER 1: HOLD JUST A SEC. CAMERA CREW MEMBER: CUT. INTERVIEWER 2: CUT PLEASE. [cut]

CAMERA CREW MEMBER: MARK IT. [sync tone] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: READY. INTERVIEWER 1: OK. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE, THE ROLE OF THE PRESS CORPS IN TRYING TO COVER THE TRIAL AND GIVE IT THE MAXIMUM PUBLICITY? Hicks: Yes, [coughs] the [coughs] so far as maximum publicity is concerned, you asked about maximum publicity from the standpoint of the press, the--both sides, the dailies and the weeklies, but more the heavily the weeklies because it was a lynching and it was us involved and so, I think, that it--most people or most papers tried to muster somebody down there to cover the trial and either through a syndication or, or one man or the--just, well, taking it out with the-- 00:20:53:00 [cut] [wild audio] Hicks: --it. INTERVIEWER 1: DO YOU WANT TO STOP FOR A SECOND? Hicks: Yeah, let me stop. INTERVIEWER 1: OK, OK. 00:21:00:00 [cut] [slate] [change to camera roll 139] CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1: SOUND ROLL ELEVEN-SIXTEEN CONTINUES. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 2: MARK. CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1: SOUND SEVEN. [sync tone] CAMERA CREW MEMBER 1: THANK YOU. INTERVIEWER 1: CAN YOU DESCRIBE FOR US THAT, THAT MOMENT WHEN MOSES WRIGHT STOOD UP AND IDENTIFIED THE KILLERS OF EMMETT TILL. CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHAT THAT WAS LIKE AND THE TENSION THAT THERE WAS IN THE COURTROOM? Hicks: Yeah, we had been told at, well, you talkin' about Moses Wright now and the testimony and that--when he got up we had been told that the stuff was gonna hit the fan when he gets up and acc--points his finger at these two murderers. INTERVIEWER 1: CAN WE STOP--CAN YOU SAY MOSES WRIGHT? CAN YOU SAY HIS NAME? Hicks: Yeah, yeah. INTERVIEWER 1: START AGAIN. IT WAS TERRIFIC, BUT JUST SAY HIS NAME AGAIN. Hicks: Well now, what we're talking about is--what, what you're askin' about is Moses Wright's testimony and Moses Wright was a se--seventy year old man, I guess, and he was called, he had, he was the boy's uncle. And he called, he was called up on to testify as to, could he see anybody in the courtroom, identify anybody in that courtroom that had come to his house that night and got the, Emmet Till out. He stood up, and there was a tension in the courtroom because we had been told at breakfast by the people in our motel that, hey, when they--stuff is going to hit the fan when they stand up and identify--when Moses Wright stand up and identifies J.W. Milam and the other fellow, I forget now what--anyway, he in his--he's not schooled so when the, when the question was put to him everybody called him Uncle Mos and that was resentful to--I mean, but he said, Uncle Mos, can you identify the people that came to you that night? And he looked around and there was a tension and he says, in his broken language, dar he. And so it was, well I had been alerted, and I told you everybody had been deputized and there was a veteran white sitting near us and he had a .45 on. And it was sitting just like this on--he was sitting on a chair that didn't have this arm around it or whatnot and this .45 was sticking out like that and I told the fellow that table that--cause we were saying what in the world are we going to do when we were up there on the second floor. And I said, I said, I've got a gun, and naturally they, what do you mean? And I said the man who sits--the deputy who sits daily in, in, in front of me white, he has a .45 which I was equipped with in the Army and I said, everyday I've been checking it to see whether the safety's on or not and this was something that well I did--agreed and course there was one black girl and we said, well she'll get out. But it, it was a terrific tension in the courtroom, at that time, but nothing happened. That--this is the thing that was a let down. I mean, what I mean, is that no, no, no outbreak came at the--but I think that was because of the judge.

INTERVIEWER 2: WHAT DID THE JUDGE DO? Hicks: The judge he was pounding on his gavel and saying, order, order, like that because I, I would assume that he had already been alerted also that, that it was going--this was the peak of the trial when it came down to the identifying of these people. That anything could happen. And just say he was a good judge. INTERVIEWER 1: DO YOU THINK SOMETHING MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED IF THE JUDGE HADN'T SPOKEN OUT? Hicks: I believe it. I believe it 'cause we had, we had--I worked it out where I was going to get the gun, somebody else was going to get the gun, somebody else was going to take this girl to the window, she was going to go to the window. Two floors down, we don't know what was gonna happen to her, I mean, we were just going to grab the chairs that we had and fight our way out if we could. INTERVIEWER 1: LET'S CUT FOR A SECOND. [cut]

CAMERA CREW MEMBER: SOUND EIGHT. HIT IT. [sync tone] INTERVIEWER 1: --AND WHAT WAS LIKE WHEN YOU GOT THERE? WHAT DO YOU REMEMBER ABOUT LITTLE ROCK? JUMPING AHEAD TO LITTLE ROCK, IN 1957, WHAT WAS YOUR SENSE OF THE TOWN WHEN YOU ARRIVED THERE? Hicks: Well now you asking about Little Rock and I can recall having been stationed at Fort Joseph T. Robinson, I think it is, anyway, in the Army, I had been stationed and that's not-- that's right outside of Little Rock, so that I was there with the--I, I remember being in the Army from there, you know? So--but I, I knew that it was a segregated town and it was not unlike Mississippi, but I did not feel that they would, would, would bar people from the schools and, of course, when I got there they barred these people from the schools. This was a, a quite a shock to me. And I looked up Daisy Bates and we sat down it--it was just something that I couldn't imagine.

INTERVIEWER 1: CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT DAY WHEN YOU WERE CAUNGHT IN THE MOB, THE DAY THAT THE BLACK STUDENTS FIRST ENTERED THE SCHOOL? Hicks: Yeah, this was, this was the first day that they people were admitted to the school. And we went in, to the black press. Moses Newsome, myself and Alex Wilson. We went into Daisy's house, stayed there early that morning, and we had a car-- [sound roll out] [cut] 00:28:19:00 [sync tone] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: THANK YOU. INTERVIEWER 1: IF YOU CAN PICK UP YOUR STORY AGAIN AT WHEN YOU GOT TO THE, TO THE, THE HIGH SCHOOL, CAN YOU? Hicks: All right. On that first day, we went, we traveled by car the three of us, by car to Central High School. Daisy and the Little Rock nine were in back of us in another car. We arrived at the school when there was a, a mob already out in front of the school. And from that point on, we didn't see Daisy and them until afterwards because they went into, and she's clever, we--they didn't come right in the front door. They went into a side door. And pretty soon we were out there on the, on the mall in front of the school. And, the word got to the crowd outside that the, the, the niggers are in the school. And so, then, they, they said to us on the outside, did you decoy? Did you lead these people in? Did you come out here as a decoy and them other people slipping into the side of this building? So, I mean, this was something that we, I said, Hell no, like that, you see? [laughs] And the, rest of us said this was ridiculous. But, I remember one man who came upon me. He was a one-armed man. But now, this was a, a mob all around us about, I mean, we were out-numbered, I guess, about five hundred to one. And so they started getting smart and what not. And pretty soon, this one man, he put his arm around my neck, like this and the others start attacking me. But I was able to look up and see that, whereas I was being held and my clothes torn off, Alex Wilson, somebody had a brick in his hand, and, instead of throwing the brick, 'cause he was too close, and he didn't want to, I guess, throw it, he hit Alex Wilson up the side of his head with this brick. I mean, a full brick it picked up and slapped him like that. 'Course, Wilson was more than six feet tall, an ex-Marine. He went down like a, a tree. The-- Newsome, he was mauled, and I was mauled. I remember being--the one thing that I remember was that when I bent over like this there was a, a man who--while he circled me, because I was in pain, and I bent over like this, and he was circling me to see if he could get up underneath--I mean I'm bent double like this, and he was trying to get his foot, I mean, kick me in my stomach, you know, like that in the groin. And so we started running but it was hardly anyway to run because they were surrounding us, you see. And, well, we saw the--

[cut] [wild audio] Hicks: --FBI who did nothing. But we finally ran away and got down to the black section of, of Little Rock. But the kids got in the school. INTERVIEWER 1: THANK YOU. INTERVIEWER 2: JUST RAN OUT. CAMERA CREW MEMBER: RAN--I JUST, JUST LIKE YOU--

[cut] [slate] [change to camera roll 140] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: SOUND TEN. [sync tone] INTERVIEWER 1: THIS LAST QUESTION IS REALLY ABOUT COURAGE OF THE LITTLE ROCK CRISIS WHICH HAS BEEN VERY CONTROVERSIAL AND PROBABLY EVEN IS NOW. IT'S BEEN SAID THAT THE TELEVISION JOURNALISTS REALLY CUT THEIR TEETH IN THE LITTLE ROCK STORY AND, I WONDER, IF YOU FEEL LIKE THEY REALLY GOT THE STORY THAT WENT OUT. DID THEY GET THE RIGHT STORY? Hicks: I never saw it because I, I--actually I was moving around and it's--sometimes when you, you--when you're on the road, you look and see but there was no paper that I read that had the, the, the story that I witnessed out there. As a matter of fact, some people said that we were served as decoys and that, and that simply was not true. I mean, they--but, we represented, the three of us, represented the whole black press, I mean, and frankly, I don't think that television, at that time, was coming up with anything new. I mean--and they had the cameras but I don't see, maybe it, maybe was timidity that they did not get into the, the kicks and bruises that that was centered on us. I mean the three of us down there. INTERVIEWER 2: STOP PLEASE FOR A MOMENT. THERE'S A LOT OF NOISE-- [cut] [wild audio] INTERVIWER 2: --OUTSIDE. I THINK THAT WE'RE GOING TO ASK YOU THAT ONE--

[cut] CAMERA CREW MEMBER: SOUND ELEVEN. [sync tone] INTERVIEWER 1: OK. IF YOU CAN, AGAIN, JUST TELL US ABOUT THE, THE WHITE PRESS COVERAGE. Hicks: Well they, they--first the, the white press did not pick up on the fact that Faubus would not let the blacks in the black press into his press conferences. The, the three of us represented the, the black press. That was all. And we were kicked around by the, the mob, my clothes were torn off. The New York Times, put on the, on the front page the fact that Wilson, a picture of him with--hit with the brick. And that was notorious. But the, the media, that is the electronic media, did not come in on anything that I could read about that was anything bearing the semblance of what I was there. [sic] You know, at--what we saw. INTERVIEWER: YOU SAID A MOMENT AGO, YOU THOUGHT THEY WERE TIMID OR AFRAID? Hicks: Well, that's what I think. That it was timidity on their part to get out there and get into the middle of the mob, because, believe me, I was running and, I mean, I don't see any, any way that that an electronics media could have been in front of that school and, and not get the three of us running away from that mob when this was the only thing that--now the, the, the, the press came up with stills of a story, but I don't know whether it was timidity or whether they--not they--thinking about their equipment or what, I don't know. INTERVIEWER 1: THAT'S GOOD. YOU CAN STOP. INTERVIEWER 2: STOP PLEASE. [cut]

CAMERA CREW MEMBER: SOUND TWELVE. [sync tone] INTERVIEWER 1: OK. YOU--ARE WE SET? CAMERA CREW MEMBER: YES. ROUGHLY. INTERVIEWER 1: IF YOU CAN DESCRIBE DAISY BATES FOR US. Hicks: Well, Daisy Bates was, was a--her and her husband, they were publishers of this state paper and it was not a fat paper, that is, it had no ads, very little ad--very few ads, but it was somebody who was trying to hold up for the black people, and, I don't know of, of--whether she's got a college degree or not, but she was out in the street and just keeping the faith, as we say. And very attractive woman. But it was--the big thing was that she apparently sensed that this, this, this town was up in arms and that, that the--she had a nice home, but this was, they were at one another and, certainly, Faubus was not helping. INTERVIEWER 1: WAS SHE A, A VERY DETERMINED PERSON, YOU THINK? Hicks: Yes, I think so. I think so. As a matter of fact, she, she seemed to be the backbone of the newspaper. Although her husband was the publisher. And then--but, of course, this is something that, you know, it, it--a black man has to kind of keep his hand in with the wife's so that he could get a few crumbs and all and his wife is possibly, the one time, especially during that time that, could be a--could show any militancy.

INTERVIEWER 1: DO YOU THINK THAT--WHAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP DID SHE HAVE WITH THE, THE STUDENTS, DO YOU REMEMBER? Hicks: Oh, they were, they were, yeah, they adored her. They--I mean, she--I don't think that Daisy has any kids at all. I don't believe so, but they made her home their home. And what's the name of this Secretary, former Secretary of Labor? Ernest-- INTERVIEWER 1: GREEN. Hicks: Ernest Green, right, right. I mean, he, he was a youngster then, you know, very, very young and he was one of 'em [sic]. And Minnijean Bro--Minnijean Bro--Brown. They, they all worshipped Daisy. And Daisy was saying, you can go you can make it, you can make it. INTERVIEWER 1: OK. I THINK WE'LL STOP THERE. [cut] [end interview] (c) Copyright Washington University Libraries 2016