Say Brother; A Case of Justice; 922

Get good evening and welcome to say brother Tonight's program is entitled A case of justice. This is the first part of a two part series. Two months ago the Boston Globe published a

story speaking to the harsh sentences that were handed down to blacks in this court system of Massachusetts. Say brother has been aware of such action by the judicial system of this state for some time. This evening we're going to attempt to disclose some of this information to you. We will approach it by way of case studies in our studios this evening. We have guests that are directly involved. Three of the cases we have chosen as examples of the injustices perpetrated on blacks of the state of Massachusetts we will refer to these cases by the names that are commonly used by the people in the press to assist you in identifying and remembering stories and reports surrounding them. The first is the popolo case. The second is the Harkin Jamal case and the third is referred to as they really Saunders or the Brighton rape case. During the second half of of tonight's program we will open the phone lines to answer some of the questions on these cases. The murder of a black woman in Roxbury and other issues that are of concern to

you for sentencing guys in here around. Two. To time especially blacks. We send these guys to. Telephone numbers on 30 to 40. Guys can use impossible for men to do. Is know. It's possible for a man to do that much time. You know he's a guy called me and he's. 18. 19 years old. He said that 30 to 40 for break any injuries. He had. I don't. Hurt many guys anymore. Guy come in here 16 years 17 years old. Judge Roy. Sentenced him to a life imprisonment he tried to rob a bank. You know what. Somebody really needs to get in there and start looking.

At the way this sentencing people. To prison in the process of doing it. That's the way things are in Massachusetts you know like they have a worse criminal justice system I've seen in the United States in the country right. Before this like racism and everything. In this. State. You're right. You know it's hard for a black man. To. Get justice. As it stands. The public don't know what's going on in courtrooms. It's closed to the public. They. They. Like. It's hard are really to say you know he is a man he's never had any experience with the court before in his life. Come into a courtroom. He don't his family don't know nothing about the court he don't know nothing about the court. And a man dictates what the law is.

And when you find out what the law really is. It's totally different than what this man was giving out. It's my feeling that a lot of people we need to get involved court system is not going to find out about. The cases that they did. That goes on it really happened in Roxbury that we read about in the papers because on the papers the TV. Media. Ah working to project one image when it isn't. Exactly what images like on my right now I very seriously doubt about those brothers who got arrested for the great loss in the murders right. Dead on. That they have got really a fear. You know they've gone on it again. I don't think you just snatched him up. You keep the public quiet. That's just one opinion. But then again they might be the one. To watch. That in a place that they will be and he not. Call. You. Know. A lot of brothers lot of brothers take that very serious.

You know long. You home and the woman. Oh dear. You know one thing that you don't do. I don't hear any you don't harm women and you don't harm kids. You do that. You got to come to this joy. You. Know. Really nothing we can do. You can't go no. Now that will give you an ample of some of the ramifications of what we're dealing with. We have to apologize for not being able to identify them I guess we're having some problem. But you are listening to Abdula Sabri and Dennis Zulu. Those are two brothers that are currently in Walpole for life sentences. They are directly involved with a hike in Jammal case went to Walpole about two three weeks ago. They however because they are inside were able to speak to. What happens to people that come inside for certain kinds of crimes but also mainly which is what we're dealing with tonight the injustices of

this judicial system. Let me introduce now our guest. We are first going to deal with the popolo case and our guest to deal with that are Mr. Frank nicer. He is the secretary to the citywide Coalition for Justice and Equality. And then we are going to have Mrs. Mary Harris who is the mother of Eddie Suarez one of the defendants in the popolo case beside Mrs. Harris we have Mr. Larry games who's the chairman of the citywide Coalition for Justice and Equality. And last but not least as our professor and expert Professor Alan Dershowitz who is of the Harvard Law School. I want to thank you all for coming to say brother. And this is a very important program. It's a very important two important two part series it's the first of our two part series. And. I want to throw out my first question with regard to the sentencing that came down on

March 24th 1976 Leon Easterling Richard Allen and Mrs. Harris the son Eddie Suarez were sentenced to natural life with no chance of parole. One of the main points about this was that the prosecuting attorney based his case on the premeditated joint enterprise theory and before we went into that thoroughly I'd like Professor Dershowitz to inform our viewers about what that is. That's something that's probably unfamiliar to them. Well it's a very confusing very complicated legal concept it's not at all self-explanatory. It essentially means that there was an agreement prior to any actions to engage in an act all together that they all agreed to engage in an act together and they didn't come together by some accident or provocation or incitement or last minute event that it was all agreed upon in advance.

OK. Thank you. With that I'd like to get first. I guess Mrs. Harris's reaction to whether or not your son and the others involved consider it to be premeditated and prearranged and then we'll go to Frank was a premeditated it was a prearranged question. Did they know each other at all. They did not. They did not know each other. My son did not know he was in New York for three years. He met her actually previously to that. Night and he also had not had not seen. Neither Richard Allen nor East. He did not see them for quite some time. He knew them but he did. He had he had dealings with he did not. He did not affiliate with them at all. OK. Because.

They they knew each other for years. Way back. And about five or six years previous to this and they happened to run up on each other at that point. And he had no idea. OK. Frank let me ask you to go over you're very familiar with this case and working with the coalition. And I would like for you to go over. That. Day. That. Was described to us by the three defendants. Well that was quite quite an evening. What actually transpired in that. Was an attack on two black women by and number of the members of the Harvard football team that occurred on the evening of the final day of the Harvard football season and it is traditional and this was testified to by a Dean from Harvard and participate in the trial by the prosecution it was a tradition that on that evening the whole Highbridge football team celebrated. So they went to the Harvard Club

and afterwards they went down to the combat zone looking for a certain type of entertainment. As I was saying this was traditional. When this incident took place they a number of these members of the Harvard football team were pursuing and attacking two black women. And they had one of them down on the ground and were kicking her when some of the defendants in this case came upon the scene. The two women were able to get away and the football team members proceeded to pursue the defendants. And in particular they got Eddie Suarez very Harrison up against the wall at the end BTA kiosk at Boylston Street had him surrounded and were attacking him. Now the only one of the three defendants had any type of a weapon at all was Leon Easterling who had a knife. And none of them had any conversation with each other during the entire course of this event. They came upon a scene and were affected by the situation and were themselves attacked and outnumbered at every point. And this scenario this description of what happened is borne out by all the testimony

that took place in the trial. Now that this situation continued and Andrew popolo was engaged in a fight with Eddie Suarez in fact some of his other members of the Irish football team had worked in trying to constrain him and hold him back and he jumped out and engaged in this fight with Eddie Suarez. Now Leon Easterling they in fact had passed Andrew popolo whom they never seen but the defense had never seen him before didn't know him. They walked by him on the street had no obvious intention whatsoever to do harm to anyone. We caught up in the situation with Eddie Flores and Andrew popolo fighting and all of the defendants outnumbered by the whole Harvard football team that was engaged in this situation Leon Easterling used a knife in defense of himself and also that the Suarez and as a result unfortunately Andrew popolo died. But there is no way that this could be construed as premeditated. It was an act of self-defense.

The whole initial involvement came out of a case of a racist attack on two black women and on these defendants who really themselves are the victims here. This was completely turned around by what subsequently happened in the trial and in the media in Boston because the person who died happens to be white happened to be a Harvard football player. And because of the station in life of the defendants in this case. Thank you Larry. Can I have your reaction as to the information or knowledge of the coalition was able to gather with regard to the I guess questions around this incident. Well the information that we were able to gather through. Many sources we don't want to disclose at this point it was very obvious to us that they did. Open themselves in that it did stop because these young black men were being attacked in

the entire pulse beat of the community as well as. Within the sea of works. And we're talking about blacks or people in the whites and. People who are legal feel all see the same thing. And historically because of the double standards of justice in Boston and also referring back to the Boston Globe that made it very clear that the judicial system was acquitted a few judges that definitely dealt with those deals with justice in this way. Many to relate to me to be clear that they made it clear that many will people. Who had committed the same crime as white were given the maximum and some to whirlpool the blacks and whites were assumed to disarm. We investigated within the courts. We talked to people more enforcement and

the data makes it very clear that the double standard of justice was involved in this case also. OK. I'd like to ask Mrs. Suarez we're running out of time quickly Mrs. Harris mother of Suarez to give us just a quick account of what happened when you were waiting in the courtroom for the verdict to come from the trial. Well while we were waiting in the court house for the verdict. We waited that evening you know because we thought they said it would be back. Our. And so the next thing we can when we get there when I get there in the family. They. Approach me in in 15 minutes said that you know that the verdict was coming on. So we went in my son and I and the family went into the courtroom. And at this point we went into the room. They

approached us with a gun. And the officer came in front of my son and I. And put up the gun and said we don't want any trouble. And the woman the you know the the that they had the officer's gun and you have a woman running out of time and a greater set. And she she said get her some saltwater get her some get the Epsom salts. So the point is is that there is water. Actors are actually actually it showed me it showed me that they knew the verdict already before before the verdict came before the jury came back. They already knew what the verdict was and they showed us this OK. We have a lot to pack into this one hour. I'm going to go from here to set you up for the Hocken Jamal Roland. They are going to you're going to hear the malmö brothers William Johnson

John King still in the brown speak to the injustices that has occurred with regard to their sentencing. Let us stand by now and watch. What do you. See first as the major points. In your favor. Of your case. OK. One that was found not guilty. By a 12 man jury. To. Isaac which you and the brother of. Philip Keyes. Confessed. Of killing Grover parking's you know. Just like convinced. Really Isaac Michu. If they're lucky they confessed to this. We had a hearing. August 2nd 1970 6 I believe was 77 facilities copped out and he

received a two to 20 which he did 18 months and now he's out on parole. What do you mean Carter. County cop. He confessed. Confessed that he was there and that he said that Isaac Mitchell shot. King Jamal. You also got arrested the day broke. He also talked about me didn't he. We. Didn't get a fair shake of justice. That they're the one who did it. And we had no knowledge of it. OK. That's one strong point. You know Isaac Mitchell got a 15 to 20. Which he got. It's also manslaughter. He's got about four years and he should be out in three more years on the street. Myself. Zulu and brother Clay. Were not eligible for parole. We didn't shoot nobody.

But yet we do a natural life. Matter of fact he was sentenced. To death. Illegally. During a trial. The jury. Found him not guilty. The jury was polled. Everybody says not guilty not guilty not guilty. They did a full on. John King's scale for Brown and myself. All three of us. Were found. Guilty of entering the dwelling. From that. Day three went out and just missed the jury. Jury went out. And. The court clerk. Had some words with the. Jury. While the jury was asked their hats and coats. They were no longer a jury. They were. Plain citizens again. He didn't have some words with the jury and comes back into the courtroom and whispers into the judge's ear. Don't. Judge and hear him have a conversation and he said bring the jury back. OK.

For me. The judge went on and brought back from the jury. The jury stood stood in the jury room and they. Said they made a mistake in the jury the reading of the verdict. They said they meant to find us. Not guilty. Of. Injuring a dwelling and guilty of. First degree murder. OK. From that. The. JUROR. From that down the judge. The judge or the jury. You know to change this verdict now the jury didn't change say that they meant to find this. Innocent. On being in the house. Which is into a dwelling or guilty they say guilt not guilty of first degree murder. They didn't change that. According to a law. Once a jury finds you not guilty that's it. It is nothing to be said said I have a staff of law like this he is.

On it. Lay a notion it's impossible. For a jury. To change its mind on the verdict. You know get up during the verdict the verdict is polled the verdict is. Come From. Dead. It's illegal to get up to Reno. Call after a jury after a jury has been dismissed. You know because normal citizens again. Criminal law eight eight nine jury may not be recording criminal case after it has been discharged. And has left court room in order to amend its verdict. The jury itself hadn't changed its verdict. The judge did in the form. There was no in the transcript there's no thing of the jury changing their verdict. To what the court is claiming that you change it to. The court's claiming that you change it to. Guilty for first degree murder which is never been. An. Not

guilty for enjoying a dwelling. Which we got sentenced to into 1st August 2nd 1973 to natural life. For entering a dwelling. And. For first degree murder. He was sentenced to death. Now let me tell you from day one Mr. a.. Know he being a law professor a well lawyer and everything. He wanted to handle my case his way. Well you know I feel personally I'm not. A lawyer so to speak. Right. But I don't know about my case. I know the details. You know. Involved in my case. I asked Mr. HAYGOOD to bring out certain issues right. You know the case is political some political overtones. The case you have three organizations involved with the case. So you have to present it as what it is a political case. Why do you say as a political case. Tell me why.

Right. First of all right we are a black man right. We're going for a white. Judicial system. All right. We're blunt with members of the organization. That. The media played up has been. Anti. United States is that the United States government. They say we're against the government that we advocated violence et cetera when really in reality we didn't know nothing about us. You know like most of us Vietnam veterans right we came back here we were trying to build educational programs within the black community. Try to read the black community of some of the crime activity in the black community. You know that the police failed to take care of so we were trying to deal with that. You know to read a community of some of the violence you know no one can control all the violence you know what we were trying to do something like that. All because of the incident that happened were something miles miles out of Chicago. They stereotype all of us as being notorious. You know and.

You know this violent you know people you know they didn't know nothing about it. OK now that was talking about the hucking Jamal case that happened in 1973. We have with us a strong advocate of that defense committee that's Sandra Cani. Sandra welcome to say brother. OK. I'd like you to speak and really quickly about the the habeas corpus that was prepared by Danny Zulu about the jury changing the verdict with. A writ of habeas corpus was filed. And the judge who handed down the decision. Stated that the law that was cited by Denise was correct. And. That it was his personal opinion. That Judge Roy had made the right decision by having a jury. Come back and reverse their verdict. And he denied the motion for double jeopardy. OK. Let me go to you Professor Dershowitz this is a sticky one based

upon the the law that we're speaking of. Can you give me the legal interpretation of that. Well there's no simple interpretation the Supreme Court has really confused the area of double jeopardy law as have many courts. It's very technical it's very confusing. The point at which you can no longer recall a jury and ask them whether they made a mistake varies and is not certain. All I can say on the basis of what I've heard is that this is an extremely close case and I hope will be appealed further. It sounds to me like the last word is not said on this matter. OK. Thank you Larry. I'd like to ask you about the community impact and the information surrounding this place. Well one good point to play is to put a rule to the brother that spoke that the community is Toby with a fair and was them that to my miles were. In the community for the good one. They did please the community at crime was cut

down. The other piece of that is that within the community we have very very strong. Beliefs. I'm saying this very clearly that you have been brought to our attention that not only as a political but with strong beliefs because historically the view the government has said clearly that he was involved in destroying the paper points that were sold he was a strong believer that the government was somehow involved in this particular case also against hope that somehow the government might just to shoot with men by their. Gay son to come back to you with regard to what other areas around this case. Do you feel needs serious attention. Ineffective assistance of the attorneys not arguing certain points that the defendants had asked him to give us examples of. Certain. Witnesses that they asked to testify on their behalf and they were

denied the right of having these witnesses come forth and testify. And that these witnesses were in fact some of them were the son and daughter of King Jamal was killed. Yes. Yes it was and they would it definitely given credibility to the fact that how came Jamal and the demonic organization were very friendly and that his wife and son and daughter believed to this day that they did not intentionally kill this man. OK. What we're going to do is the second part to this two part series specifically deals with this case Kim Jammal case next week we're going to run a one hour documentary on this case. We were not able to get to everybody. We were able to get some to some very key people of what you're looking at today and it's a little surprised. And we hope that this will shed more light on it for you. And that as a community will be able to help

write some of the wrongs. What I'd like to do now is welcome Mr. Andre Sanders who is the brother of Willie Sanders who has been arrested for the rapes and Breitling he was arrested in February. I would like for you to bring out some of the major cases. First let me welcome you to say brother. Thank you. OK. Can I have you bring out some of the major points that you think needs serious consideration around your brother's case. Well first I would like to say that before the lineup prior to the lineup. That Willie Sanders Pitou was shown. On TV and in the Boston Globe tried to line up for these victims who said they were accused of being raped was not evil to make a positive identification. This picture was being put on TV and in the globe after that fact that.

He was being positively identified. It was only after the fact that his picture was being on TV and that the victims made a positive of it. Don't fixation with that sentence. OK. How was it. What is the situation with your brother now. At this particular time he's out on bail. $10000 were raised through Defense Committee efforts. He's employed at this particular time. And what we're trying to do is educate the people and let them know what was going on about the case. Some things like. Concern in the line it was unfair. Why was it unfair. It was unfair because of the fact that. A lot of took place at police headquarters this does consist of six people with five of them were. Police officers. They were different from height and

weight of willies. And as they were. They had. Big beliefs which really stands did not have and therefore he would stand out and people would know exactly know who they were looking for. OK let's pick up on that point. Is there any particular law that one goes by in terms of how a lineup procedure is to. Be executed. Yes. The Supreme Court has in the last 10 years articulated some standards about lineups as have the lower courts and suggestive lineups are improper. That is it's not proper to show somebody's pictures in the newspaper and then say can you identify the defendant. Lineups cannot include some of the characteristics that have just been describe the defendants or the defendant in the line up has to have similar characteristics in general to the others in the lineup. There are two ways of challenging this one before the trial on legal and constitutional grounds. And then at the

trial itself or in simply impeaching the credibility of those who made the identification. One has to know the precise facts of the case to know obviously how it's going to come out. But there certainly are important legal issues that are suggested by your description this sounds. Like from what is happening here. What we talked about was a hakim Jamal case and what we talked about during the popolo case there's definitely. Questions as to whether or not blacks can be judged fairly in this state and one questions if they can be judged fairly even in the country I'd like you to speak to some of your knowledge about that. Well in the country it's very clear the system of justice throughout the United States as it applies to whites who attack blacks and black attack whites is very unfair. The statistics are extremely dramatic just to look at the most extreme penalty. Capital punishment. The statistics are just unbelievable in a state like Florida. If a black

kills a white he has almost a 20 percent chance of ending up in the electric chair whereas if a white kills a black there's that distinctly at least no chance of ending up in the electric chair. No one has been sentenced in the past few years. That's not only true of southern states that's equally true. For example Ohio where the data show that there's a 21 percent likelihood if you're black and you kill the white of ending up on death row and a zero percent likelihood if you're white and you kill a black just extrapolate those statistics a little bit. Generally if a white man rapes a black woman the likelihood of a prosecution and conviction and sentencing is very slight if a black man rapes a white woman. The likelihood of prosecution and conviction and high sentence is much higher. There is a double standard of justice in this country and it relates not only to the race of the defendant but also to the race of the victim. And that applies in some of the cases that we've been talking about here today. OK thank you. I'd like to get some reaction from our community expert in

terms of this particular case of police on this case. Now I know. That you are well aware of information that again has question marks surrounding it with regard to this particular case I wonder if you would share what you could of that with us. Certainly Dabur the bills. Craig backing up. I believe that all of the women who had been raped made it very clear that the president had very bad skin. However that was explained in the contradiction is that the brother definitely has very clear skin. I mean how do you explain that. The other thing is that I don't understand the legality but the warrant was available at one date and it wasn't issued then later on a period of time if the with the propaganda will put all the warrant was issued and he was arrested and we don't quite understand what that really means.

Was there a period of time of about two months or he was actually arrested as to when the warrant was issued. I think it was a boat. Andrea is that true. Yes it was. As a matter of fact they do want somebody 28. They did not arrest stay in until February 1st. OK. I'd like to talk about the standards surrounding issue issuing of warrants and then when one executes that in and picks up that person the law unfortunately is very bad. And the point of view of when you have to pick somebody up after the warrant has been issued the Supreme Court in a case 12 years ago said there is no right to be arrested at any given time. There is power to issue a warrant and then delay the arrest for investigative purposes. As far as the standards for issuing a warrant itself they require that probable cause be established that is that if there is substantial evidence substantial likelihood that this defendant in fact committed the crime at issue.

So at any any period of time can pass between the issuing of the warrant and the actual arrest. I won't go so far as to say any period of time in the cases that the courts have considered It's been a reasonable period of time involving months. I would suspect that if it went much beyond that the courts might get very suspicious and the circumstances are always suspicious when a warrant is issued and they're not executed for a particular period of time particularly when the execution of it follows media publicity. So it is a suspicious circumstance. I'd like to talk. For a quick minute about again the what appears to be double standards in terms of the judicial system in this country and in particular in the state. In January of 1977 a young black youth Brian Nelson was killed by a white Marine and others. The others were released and the Marine was acquitted by an all white jury. It almost seems impossible as we continue really look at these can make these kinds of

comparisons that we. It seems like it's an impossibility for us to ever expect any just decisions to be made with regards to blacks I like your opinion on that. Well it's a national problem as you know recently in New York a white policeman killed a black teenager. And the jury found him not guilty by reason of insanity and then he was immediately ordered released after just a few therapeutic days in a mental hospital where the psychiatrist found that he was perfectly OK. That case is on appeal. There's no doubt that it is difficult to see justice in this country as a single standard as equal justice. And one can understand the rage that's been expressed in the black community about this double standard of justice. There are of course instances where justice is done but there are so many instances where particularly you find the sentencing is different in relation to blacks and whites and it gets involved at every point in the process. It's

involved with the arrest point. It's involved at the prosecution point it's involved with the jury point it's involved in the judicial aspects of it so it's pervasive and it's a very serious blemish on our system of justice in this country. OK. Thank you all very much. Go ahead. But I would also be also made that they had a major meeting in Brighton which I believe was an all white meeting that same night we still wonder why it took at the same time as the meeting was taking place for the brother to be arrested. Well what does that mean. I mean we believe that the pressure was so strong that you're saying the arrest took place at the night of the meetings in Brighton. Right. OK. And that would sound to us in the community like an opportune took an opportune time to arrest him and there's just a lot of paranoia a revolt that has gone through that. OK. That's an important point to throw out. And what I'd like you to do now is to get

your pencils on paper and take dance number 4 9 1 0 3 4 No 1 to give you an opportunity to speak with Professor Dershowitz. Mr. KANE So we're going to have Mr. nicer. Come back out and we're going to have a community calendar break. We'll be right back in one minute. On. The phone. Welcome back. I hope that was long enough for you to get your pencils and papers together to take down the number

again the number is 4 9 1 0 3 4 and we're accepting phone calls. Now this is just for Fridays only so for Saturday and Sunday repeat. You won't be able to get through. But for Friday evening 4 9 1 0 3 4 all I'd like to welcome back. Frank Nysa. He's going to sit here with us and try to help answer some of the phone calls that I hope will be coming through very shortly. But why are you sitting here and we're waiting for phone calls what I'd like to do is take advantage of going back to the popolo case we had to do that so quickly. Please bring up some other major issues you think we should talk about. I think it's very important for the community to be aware of what actually transpired in the trial because as I described the situation really the defendants were the victim. Yet in the trial the conduct of the trial can be described in no other way than as racist from beginning to end. The in fact the conviction was overturned by the Supreme Judicial Court because they systematically and

blatantly excluded every potential black juror except one solely on the grounds that they were black. So what's the overturning where does that leave us now. Overturning of the conviction. Well the defendants will be coming back for a retrial in October and they will hopefully find a more supportive media atmosphere because really throughout the trial they were tried to land it was trial by slander. There was no attempt to dispute what the events were that I described earlier. But the prosecution simply impugn the character of the two women who were attacked by the Harvard football team and impugn the rector of the defendants without any evidence and without any truth to it. And it's really on the basis of who they were that the convictions were brought about and they judge who was Judge Roy who was mentioned earlier is the same judge that unilaterally reversed the verdict for the defendants in the Jamal case. He supported this action on the part of district

attorney Monday. And he would sit in the trial tell the defense attorneys to sit down and shut up. And he gave instructions to the jury. We had more or less told them that they had to find all three of these defendants guilty of first degree murder. OK. And Mr. Wright is among the conspiracy theory that you discussed before. OK thank you. We have a caller. Hello. May we have your call please. Yes ma'am. I have a question please. My question is this is a double standard in the court system in the state and throughout the country. And I agree that turns me down about it. How can that be remedied so that there is one standard that applies to minorities and whites in any other group that feels that it's being victimized by this double standard. Very good question thank you. Would you hang up and turn your set back up and we'll try to answer you. Professor Dershowitz What's your address. I think it has to be answered a lot of levels. First we have to improve the nature of judicial appointments. Too many former prosecutors are appointed to be judges in this

state and in many other states we have to get people from the defense bar people from the black community younger people people who don't have the same kind of upbringing and background as has been reflected in the current situation. I think that's the most important thing. Education and changes in the nature of the people who are working in the judicial system. That's a very big mandate. How does one even attempt to try to affect that. Well there are judicial selection committees. I will not comment on on the current judicial selection committee except to mention that it's my understanding I think that Judge Roy currently sits on the nominating committee so I'm not sure that bodes well for the nature of appointments. I point minutes of by Governor Dukakis governor Sargent were were quite good. And so far the appointments by Governor King have not been bad. One can only hope not really limited to hoping one can apply all kinds of pressure because we're talking about a political decision if you will all kinds of pressure to make sure that the

right kinds of appointments are made. And very importantly that the wrong kinds of appointments are veto and not made and prevented and blocked. OK. From a community perspective. Larry. Which you speak to that caller's point in terms of us trying to make some change certainly but I think one of the responsibilities of the coalition will be to begin to have education meetings we have we make it very clear for citizens to become involved one and going to the courts to get a better understanding. Pulling together petitions that will go to the legislatures and on the overall just become cognizant or to deal with the fact there are a lot of pressure has to be applied. I think that that's what community people should be thinking about. And I think that we should be politicizing them on that level.

I think that it needs to be addressed in terms of the source of the problem that this this reality in the judicial system is reflective of the problem of racism in this society as a whole. I think it's up to all individuals to become active in the fight against racism in the society as a whole. I think it's particularly important for white people to become active in that fight because when the entire population turns it around in terms of their own actions and activities and rallies demonstrates or does whatever it has to to make clear that this sort of conduct on the part of the government will not be tolerated by the people. That is when we will be able to see some change in it. OK I'm going to go over to the Alma case where we're anticipating more phone calls. Again you are free to call the number is 1 9 1 0 3 4 4. Looks like we have a calling now maybe I'll take a question and then go to Larry in a minute. Hello.

May I Have Your question please. Yes my big question I'd like to know when I got arrested. Right. And then they picked him up put him in jail while he was in jail. Right. Yes. Really I mean how could it be him if he's behind jail. And I think that is a fair theory. That is a very good point. Well you hang up your phone and go back to the set and turn it up and we'll try to respond to that. If we can. That's a very good point. That's a point that he made me aware of lie. Is that really standard was in fact in jail in two rapes happened at that point to have that arrest. What would that do for his case. Well if the rapes were committed while he was in Charles Street were similar in modus operandi to the other rapes that will be a very significant issue. Fortunately he's in terrific legal hands as I understand that he's being represented by Max Stern and I'm sure Mr. Stern will use that to the maximum effectiveness and it's a very telling point. OK.

You had some points I wanted you to make with regard to this case maybe go and elaborate on some of them that really say in this case other major issues both through the case. I think it's very important for people to be aware that there was a tremendous amount of propaganda put out there created a racial history which made it very clear that the black men had raped white women and that it was a case of a man. But the issue was mega fired and then it was made clear that that he had hit some kind of criminal record which he did. And I think that was a strong influence. And I think back up again I think he was accused of I think eight rapes and it

ended up that he was only being charged for the alleged budget I think for him. What does that really mean. I mean it come from a community position that would do harm. I mean how much can you trust the system the tax system. That's right at this point. OK let's take the next call. Hello May we have a question please. Yes. I would like to know what can they do about George's murder. And this double is like when the victim's mother to come back and you know the jury to draw it out and they called the jury back. Yes. And then they wrote that. You're not supposed to do that. What can be done in that case can be what love and do just like that. OK. Thank you very much. Turn up your set and we'll try to answer for you. Well as I understand it the case is pending or was pending before a federal district court on

a writ of habeas corpus and was decided against the defendants. I don't know whether it's now on appeal but as I said I think there is a significant legal issue in this case unfortunately with the current state of the United States Supreme Court which almost never these days grants petitions at the request of defendants the Supreme Court has become a court of last resort for the state for the government not for the people. I'm not optimistic that the Supreme Court would reverse the case of this kind. OK you're making some points Frank about the popolo case. I'd like you to continue that please. OK. Well I was pointing out about how the case was actually conducted in the trial and the injustices that were involved there. And they did the district attorney is the same. But joy is no longer on the bench since retired but I think a case that everyone in the community should watch and express their support for these defendants because of the whole fact that they have the weight of Harvard University

against them and undoubtedly the media hysteria that was developed last time will be repeated because of the circumstances of the case. I want to just say a couple of things about the Willie Saunders case as well. What the situation is is this is clearly not the man. He doesn't didn't fit the description that was put out by the victims. He doesn't there's He is a man who is a family man who has been living with his family on this job in the Brighton community for numerous years and also his workers on that job and his work on a previous job at the Peter Bent Brigham hospital have all come to his support as well as his employer all saying that would be impossible for this to have been the man. He was also not in the city at the time. When these things were supposed to have occurred and he has some evidence to prove that he was in another place. And he was arrested in response

to a fairly hysterical community meeting that happened in Brighton. And you know the way this was dealt with by the police department and the media contrasts greatly with what occurred during in the situation in Roxbury with a series of murders and the inaction and lack of satisfaction that people had with the speed and response on the part of the police and the courts in that circumstance which is another reflection of the kind of double standard having arrested Willy Sanders is not giving protection to the people in writing because they have simply taken a black. He's been arrested and charged with this because he's a black man who works in writing and that is really his crime in a situation OK. Can I just go back to the little kids. There's a very strong contradiction there because we had a press conference that was about a law the double standards that taking place and double standards of injustice have taken place in the city of Boston and

some of the professors allow the names to be used at the press conference. So I'm just showing you that it isn't saying that everybody at Harvard told you you agreed. I thought that was a ruse to allow their names to be used in terms of supporting. The defendant. Correct. OK. One of the things that. Strikes my attention again is there seemed to be another kind of hysteria in the 60s and it seems to be coming back now. At the time of the. Mamá arrest there was a lot of fear and tension in the community at least reported by the police. Now our documentary next week will speak specifically to whether or not that's really true or not and whether or not the community fear the DeMello mile and black panthers and people of that sort or whether or not they were really looked to as an alternative to the police department and supportive

alternative. But yet there was a hysteria that everyone will agree existed. And it seems like what these cases that are coming up now and one that we hope to affect before Willis Sanders is is put into prison for the rest of his life. There seems like there's a direction that they're heading back into that kind of really ridiculous sentencing with regard to blacks. I'd like you to speak about that if you could. Well I think there are movements in two directions there are some improvements. For example the Supreme Judicial Court of Massachusetts in the popolo case took a giant step forward in denying prosecutors the right to use their peremptory challenges racially to exclude blacks and the jury. That's a major step forward. On the other hand there's a real demand for mandatory minimum sentences in a wide range of offenses and for harsher sentences and for increased sentences and I think that trend points in a different direction. And there is a fear there is a danger that we will have a significant increase

in imprisonment and there's one thing that's certain if there is a significant increase of imprisonment in this country it will hit much much harder on blacks than whites. That's been the trend. We have another call. Hello may I have a question please. Yes I have a question for Professor Dershowitz. He had implied that earlier in the program one way to ensure equal justice for blacks was to increase the number of younger people and don't use me. Blacks and women and other minorities on the bench in the legal profession. And I just wondered how he would plan to do that given the opposition of such groups who have been made to affirmative action and now bringing more black women and other minorities into law school. My second question is Professor Dershowitz know how much. The number of blacks women and other minorities has

increased in the past 10 years. Those are both very much both excellent questions. Many of the Jewish organizations that I'm familiar with are very much in favor of affirmative action and affirmative action programs. There is as you probably know disagreement within the Jewish community and he mentioned the B'nai B'rith as to what form these programs should take whether they should be based solely on race or on other factors like disadvantage. It's felt by many that programs that focus solely on race disadvantage poor blacks because they tend to emphasize admission by the few wealthy blacks who went to the Better Schools and some schools have been accused of doing that B'nai B'rith and other organizations have been committed over the years to eliminating all discrimination all barriers and there's some concern that race quotas reimposed different barriers. It's a disagreement that we shouldn't get hung the main point is if we were to eliminate barriers to entree to the bench today among minority groups there would be a

significant number of minority groups of Cygnet increase on the bench. I think the problem today is that there still is discrimination discrimination in the selection of prosecutors some discrimination the selection of jurors discrimination the selection of judges. We eliminate that. We would have a significant increase and then we can argue about whether and how much race specific affirmative action is necessary. But it would be terrible to fight among ourselves over this issue because the organizations that you've mentioned in the black community agree that there has to be an end to all discrimination. OK. Thank you very much. Thank all of you very very much. I hope that we've made some impact on the knowledge you've had about the other cases. We're looking forward to our program next week. We want to be with us to watch a case of justice part two. Thank you for watching and good night. It's.

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