City Makers; McCoy: Urban Tensions; 101

This campus it is easy to get lost in really McCoy. You've been at the center of the decentralization of public schools struggle in the New York City as a director of the Ocean Shield Brownsville district since last spring almost not a day passes without your being involved in some form of controversies

surrounding the centralization of the schools. How do you feel now in terms of the amount of time and energy and struggle with you that you've had to put in in this role as the real personification of the struggle of mostly black and Puerto Rican people in New York City for community control and decentralization of their schools. Well at this moment I have some what I've been feeling it. But I think everything is worth it. And I basically feel that the whole country now is looking at education something it should have done many years ago particularly that which relates to the black and Puerto Rican community. It's unfortunate that we have to have so much conflict and controversy but I think it's alerted the public that the black and Puerto Rican communities are committed to changing the core quality of education relegated to

their children so on the other hand I feel at this moment that it may be sort of a wasted effort because it appears that establishment all these resources added to Centra still determined that the quality of education can be used to get a real sense of defeat and the struggle with you ready to give up in terms of bringing about effective education through decentralization and community control of our schools. No I don't mean other ways to struggle. You know in one sense it's not a sense of defeat. No one would ever relinquish this kind of commitment or I think the principle was the commitment. But I think in this particular district where we've been sort of the prototype establishment is able to bring to bear the kind of laws translation laws interpretation and laws resources that prevent getting

to the basic issues that the parents were committed to you are yours. One of our outstanding students with our society urban and ethnic affairs. Do you think that the type of problems and conflict which surrounded the ocean Brownsville situation were inevitable problems or just a question I wanted to ask them. And I want to say a few things about it just to indicate some of the things that have troubled me. So I look back I say well the Bundy report came out a year and a half ago. You had the well the Ford Foundation for its legacy for the UFC some for not for it not for it but at least in words and so on and part and you had the legislature for it in some form that say at least they had that they demanded that a report of education in the city of New York Education was against it the supervisor is very considerate and the left let's say was sort of against But I mean

if you go back a year and a half ago. Possibly not. I'm not sure. But they all said that they were for OK for this reason. I don't think the Board of Education as we know or did not say it was for that but concretely I wonder why. Why isn't there. I mean weren't there actions taken and I know the controversy is very complex and our actions taken which in effect all broke up and weaken the power of those people for decentralization got to the point where you have to he was totally against it. The legislature and the strong influence from them the lefty with its strong connections to the sort of middle class communities in New York Jewish and other action on the policy board. Yeah I'm thinking of it's not even a blame assessment. I'm sure you can't even look at it. You know obviously I can't look at it objectively I. Rather it was necessary for the O'Daniel Browns board to make the public demand for the transfer of those teachers at the time which they

thank you for putting it out precisely improperly yet. All was necessary when those guys came back with a strike in support of those for that first group then say Now you can't work here either. Well that's a tradition that after the strike is over I think I understand what you're asking. Maybe the answer you will sort of go in another direction. I think I suggested to you just a minute ago that each of those people who at one time or another supported some form of decentralization which is from our own point of view was fraud which I won't go into now but had a number have an ulterior motive behind what they say now that the poor people had one commitment one program with no resources to do anything about it and that was basically to educate people on how to improve education. Now this often lost sight of that the struggle is really still a struggle for quality education in the ghetto area. It puts me back into talking about the fraud.

I mean that document is purported to do. It's not going to have a political piece of machinery. But what argument are you facing in here and also all our polls or all of one. Well the one they had Ponson is that they gave indications that it was addressing itself to education in certain segments and it reflected the control of the vested interests. I mean it left a moderate which gave an interpretation that the central board could still hang on such things as the high school. But if you just understand what the role of the community of people is now they move to get people out who in effect and we followed the law. As you say my lady is saying though at the time the timing of the move and in honor of the monks or even or even it's it's a necessity in a sense. For example I mean just to push the matter further at this point I understand 100 hundred teachers whoever remains in that lengthy year struggle are half years struggle go back in the schools at Ocean Isle Brownsville.

How do you feel the school is optional Brownsville. Other what I feel is a very critical question you feel that now that in effect in some sense is that a political defeat at all. It's hard what it has been defeated. Brownsville Shankar It was but that complex situation with those teachers back there. Do you feel that you can that you still have enough power as to proceed towards leaving aside what happens to the rest of the city but notional grounds will you have enough powers to produce effective change in education. Absolutely not not absolutely not. And let me say it this way we've reversed that position very quickly and returning teachers who came back in. And if you talk about defeat was a moral defeat for them for the people who had made a commitment that they would not come back and teach their children that they are back and we're going back to that old cliche of having a body to cover classes because that's basically what it is. An early discussion with Dr. Clark we talked about this and those teachers and I don't want to lump them all together but too many of them are doing identically the same things that precipitated the original move.

They are not teaching the children and that's what their focus is. The only thing that these parents can see this is their only concern and the only resources that they have to do something about it just try to take some sort of action which obviously violates what everybody says is the contract and the law and so forth. Now I want to make this point clear. There are some of those same teachers who are good teachers. We've never questioned this as a matter of fact no one spent time addressing themselves to the fact that the professional staff had actually petitioned the governing board to take back the percentage of those teachers who they are identified as being good teachers. Now I'm saying they're back and they're involved in the political intrigue. They are involved in such as the kinds of trauma situations calling the teachers sort of questioning their seniority and their ability and experience and so forth. So as I said to you earlier very subtly they are still creating the current friction in the community around a very basic issue which we were concerned about him saying if they

divorce their political viewpoints from what we're trying to accomplish that is educating the children then you have a little different picture. Can we go back a little though as I understand the original question. Nathan Glaser It was in regard to the timing of the actions of the ocean. It was more than that I would say it was not for me simple for me. I think it was an expressive form in large measure we don't like these guys always getting rid of them. And you see that's one of the uncanny things of how things come across the press the mass media that people hang onto you know understandably so. But there were many meetings held between the chapter chairman and the union representative and me regarding the teacher performance in the district. When we began to identify these people we didn't pass this on to the chapter James my friend one of the persons involved was a the family we heard it for me it wasn't

as if this came as a surprise to him. Now let me just stress that point to a very thin line. Some of the political machinery of some of the political platforms and so forth that were present at that time begin to have effect on morale of teachers across the district and this naturally got back to parents because they're involved now at one point we were talking about 120 130 teachers being siphoned off this district and replaced at some subsequent time. But you can ask them to put their child in a classroom where a teacher or virtually resents black children regardless of any contract or any law what happens. And when we begin to identify these kinds of things we have an alternative. Now the thing that actually precipitated it was safety of children begin to be involved. Now as you say what was the what was the most expedient and usually subtle way. It kind of got to me because this is the time I heard I mean I've heard this question before.

Couldn't you have waited a while or couldn't you use the sort of some you know decentralization legislation was coming up with some other legislation I'm saying to you is this saying if you're going to exercise the law. Let's do it quietly sort of the people don't know that black people know the law and are going to be able to function on it. We just take a simple one as this and that city. They don't fire teachers for incompetence. Take all of the. Atmosphere the negative atmosphere that was around that project centers and city teachers do you think you're going to find some comfort in the arts as we've been able to tell through pretty intensive research as they have done. Well teacher training has ever been fired from the New York public school system. That's the way the information that's as much as we've been able to get we think is pretty accurate. I mean this in itself is a process which you can readily see that community involvement couldn't be a structure or part of trying to rebuild so I was a teacher. I don't teach at all. Not one of

them. One of the things we lost sight of I told you before about these communities not having the resources those teachers in that district well-organized will give me a typical example we sent in a conference similar to this. And we said What role should be teachers to go on the board and in the community play and say what we think we ought to have an education Advisory Committee. This was just a moment Chapter 10 and we met the next week and the same group that went out of the Education Advisory Committee to the board if we decided to do something in the community every teacher in that district who was you FTT to knew about it the next day they had a very well organized and systematic. Communication System. I just want to have one last comment. It seems obvious to us. That these people have been programmed. I ask a question but the program Oh this has been part of a very deliberate plan plan plan. Yes. For example under what conditions do you think teachers can teach you when each

teacher must be careful of even looking at another teacher. In a strange way. Because the the observer on the premise picks up the phone calls the board calls you and says yes this is already is when things wrong and only just now this was true before because this is the way that the chapter chairman was going on. I was going to bring up I was a broaden this if I could you can cut me down if you want me to. Because you see when you say for example which is I'm sure it's true that practically no teachers have been fired for incompetence you know being self-conscious. I wonder when was the last professor fired for incompetence. I mean if he knew that was the less policeman fired for incompetence and now is the last man checked out of the plumbers union for incompetence. I was able to educate him. OK I agree. I know. But I'm not I'm not I'm not making excuse I'm raising the question. And I think the question which in a way has to concern us that here you and I don't have an answer. I mean I just I just put on the agenda here. You have

people who are from their own perspective teachers policemen skilled trade unions out there better off a lot of people we know them better off a lot of egos in the city. No question about that from their perspective. They're not so well off. From their perspective this is their protection. You know this is why this is not as well off as professors. And I was well off as you know the radio administrators and the army our eyes and are at and yet so. And I say I have read an awful lot of the letters. I've been out of New York. I read in the New York Times interesting enough I read them a very interesting case to read in these days the Village Voice the old media the Village Voice have now become teachers and you have has seen those passionate letters in defense of the UFTA and defense of the teacher right position from all Greenwich Village People. You say not so old. 30 and you know and this is how is one going to you know deal with this issue. The sense of that this is there only.

If it is that says their only support against all gentlemen here hear back up a little on just a summary statement about the Oceano Brownsville and other decentralization experiments in New York City. The fact is that these were experiments with three experimental districts that were funded in part by the Ford Foundation in order to test whether a local community approach to education would increase the quality of education for children in low income minority group areas. The fact that these were new would almost automatically mean that one would expect problems difficulties certainly problems from the point of view of the central board that for the first time was being asked to share some of its authority. Problems from the point of view of a centralized UFTA Which didn't know what to expect from local boards. Certainly problems from the

local boards who were for the first time were really being asked with minimum training. To exercise certain kinds of administrative decision making roles which previously they had been denied. So I don't suppose we can argue about the problems you would expect problems on that situation. I suppose so. Clark I suppose I'd like to put it in another way that the. Three of us are playing poker here. You see and you see all of my colleagues. I don't see yours or I don't see the key card. And I think the whole concept that was made it here as a demonstration project was fraudulent except that it was new. No no no I don't think so I'm saying that the people themselves saw this as a possible way of changing education for their children. Now the way that the others saw it had other kinds of meaning which weren't

obvious to the people. So on that basis you could see problems but otherwise I'm saying if everybody was really committed to changing education as a single professor from me then you wouldn't have had the problems or at least to that degree because they would have been working together for common interest because now you can I suggest a kind of even slightly positive wrap up of this situation which everyone can disagree with. I think you I think you're right. You had to expect probably a terrific guy with a terrific time feistiness both to modify a tight rocker. And the feistiness of black communities. Would you say probating Now do you anticipate conflict. I would anticipate conflict. Now I would not say a second thing. The conflict was far greater than I. To my mind need have happened or certainly you know it was quite tragic and I think again I feel that on both sides there was a kind of you know shooting from the trigger or overreaction arrest. This is life. How do you define this is that the two sides in this case all this. I'll define

most concretely the community and its representatives and I quite accept the view that it's the community that. There have been arguments but it seems perfectly clear that's the way the community and its representatives and the teachers and their union that's behind them. There are other forces admittedly behind a teacher's union is the link the Jewish community to the white to the white lower middle class and middle class and behind the the brown grounds looking at the strong links to the other black communities of the city to Puerto Rican to some extent and to other and to reform or reform groups and so forth. But what would you would you agree I think you might not but that that of the three districts that exist there is you know the three experimental districts there is some reasonable measure of decentralized power which gives the hope of change an experiment and so on. I hope supported by for example by the existence of large numbers of new young teachers brought into it that

that these are not the failures. The real question is whether the political situation has gotten so bad that this very experimental decentralized districts remain just that and it cannot be expanded into a general pattern. So I understand what he's saying is aren't there some successes in spite of the conflicts and failures. Well. Yes there are. I can only speak for Brownsville but I think the question and the direction he was saying had to do with controls authority which would make these things successful. I'm suggesting to you the answer is No. You think that the polarization should have occurred for that for example what I'm saying to you is new young teachers coming in. Is no measure of control. If you have vacancies and teachers are to come in and fill the and line lines there have to be young teachers but it is in your control. I mean I have being a very extreme way that it is if you have a lot of vacancies to fill you have power you can bring in new people.

That's part of the system I mean that's nothing. Well it isn't. Gentlemen what I am not too clear. I was running a department and I had one third of the locations were empty I would feel that be great power to change the character of that department. But I believe that what he's saying is that he does not have the power. And so far the the power of the United Federation of Teachers and their association with the supervisors and the Board of Education can make it much clearer that I'm saying it's the system. When we recruit What do you mean by systems that sort of thing. And it's a specific and hierarchy and bureaucratic process. What I'm saying specifically when we recruited teachers which any normal principal would do as part of the system. Even though we recruited our own teachers which may be a little different that they had to get approval from the board. Now the difference what you see as control is after we got home we had to fight to keep it. I don't see this in the way of really we have skirted around

one of the most disturbing and. Emotional all of the problems which you've been elicited by the decentralization struggle in New York namely. Negro white or black white relations and even more specifically Jewish negro relations. You have UFTA in its struggle to protect the rights of its teachers they put out some information to the effect that the Ocean Shield governing board and many of its supporters were really embarked on a anti-white and more specifically anti anti-Jewish campaign. They distributed thousands of. Pamphlets or pamphlets I think a leaflet. You mean the union the union the union distributed thousands of leaflets which clearly had a strong anti-Semitic component and attributed them to the original governing board. What was your reaction to that as

well. If I can look at it objectively in a political sense I think that's one of the kind of strategies in fact that would have to employ in order to arouse. Shankar there's no question for instance there's nothing that. Was ever attributed to this government specifically that can be document numbers anyway anti-white anti-Semitic for example at the beginning the very first principle that we selected was everything that the system represented white Jewish and came off the civil service list. I mean that's that's so clear. So I'll tackle that. Still to come from so widely distributed as far as I can determine at this point Ralph's point is one of the teachers who was very active in this whole movement and was active long before this project came into existence had. Had a speech and made a statement somewhere. Was he associated with the governing board. No he had no official or no real association with him in any other community people and people all over the city.

Yes he came in one of those school now had no contact with us in that sense. And what they did was took a speech that he made on a statement that he made long before. And put it together as being representative of the Association of junior high school 271. And when in fact in reality it was in June it was a time that the PTA parent teacher association would not remember which he has no affiliation and if the records are correct the main rUK who's on our board is also the PTA president. So I mean this was you know one of those kinds of documents that was able to be circulated among his constituents. It's had a great effect particularly of the Jewish community all of enormous sensitivity and the Jewish community clearly you obviously one is not saying anything new it's it's perfectly clear a tremendous sensitivity on the issue of Negro anti-Semitism black and Jewish communities the Jewish community you know first of all this meeting meetings.

And that's you know that's that's one of the questions I'd like to raise. How justified is this. That's right. I can think of some things myself to say about it I just wonder how do you react to this. You know very great sensitivity and. Well I think that maybe even Al Shanker would admit now under. Relief from the glare of. Television that might have been a mistake to give him such wide distribution to. The implicit and at times quite explicit anti-Semitism of a single individual. But the fact is that was done. We are now confronted with the fact that there is tremendous anxiety on the part of the Jewish community. And what one of the things which disturbs me is that there's got to be a sort of. Cyclic relationship between the anxiety of the Jews about Black anti-Semitism and a sort of an escalation of anti-Semitism among Negroes.

Certainly because Jewish civil rights and civil defense organizations have an agenda then they have the power to give great publicity to this if. And of course I suppose it's a. But you know but among ordinary Jews I have the feeling that part first coming out of the teacher's union issue. Here you know it's an interesting thing in New York City is the only this is the only city where there is you might say a Jewish proletariat not that teachers are a proletarian middle class proletariat. At least you know in most cities is it Jews or businessman or professionals they work that there are teachers of course not. But you have great you have taxi cab drivers you have you have workers you have they know all. And so that this is a kind of special situation something a Labor Council of New York City is not really controlled by the Jewish controlled unions and that's the skilled trades you know the building trades. However they were very much behind the UFTA. Let me let me see if

I can follow your point. I suspect that most people will disagree and I think the reason that. This anti-Semitism hung so heavily in the Jewish Committee community is because of their conscious. Now what I'm saying to you is that when a predominance of Jewish teachers in the school system are the majority of school teachers in New York City were Jewish. That's correct. And certainly you have you already have principals and supervisors that account. But the reason this question I think is even greater in the ranks of the supervisors. But go one step beyond that. A large percentage of the teachers in the ghetto area. One has to follow the government if you have such an overwhelming percentage of the city that they suddenly they are now confronted with the failure. Which they serve a majority of as the implementer. I once heard Al Franken give an interesting explanation of this fact. He says that one of the reasons that you have a disproportionate. Percentage of.

Jewish teachers in the ghetto areas is the fact that non-Jewish teachers exercise their option to teach middle class white communities. Los Angeles for that more than Jewish teachers would certainly not reinforce I don't believe the reason I say I don't believe it because in the non ghetto areas. You have your highest percentage of regular teachers with tenure a lot. So the reason that the Jewish teachers are in the ghettos primarily because that's where the vacancies exist. You see I was talking to someone this morning about the marriage system. You know you have a marriage system where you're supposed to take one out of the first three. They're all on a number of ways that principals and district superintendents can exercise next of subterfuge to bypass the marriage system they can pull a guy out. Let's say number three on the list and just hold them they don't declare a vacancy. This guy's name comes up. Or in many instances they just do it outright and assume that everybody on that list is going to be appointed. Nobody would tell them how they are all for that. I mean you're for the substitutes except to

becoming public and legal you really want freedom of advisors. I really don't see how that's related to the Jewish negro. Confrontation. But you are very you may be beginning to make an interesting point and a point that you think an issue of conscience and I wonder what you meant by that. Because I I was intrigued by that in terms of. Well I mean the anxiety among Jews concerning anti-Semitism among Negroes is an issue of conscience you feel because conscience. In what way. Well what I'm saying again is that the tremendous failing academic faith in the black and Puerto Rican communities is attributable to teachers to to a good message and I hope to make say the system as equally responsible for putting them in situations where we can possibly teach what I'm saying. Nothing has emanated from this large body of professionals that supervisors and the teachers know. That improved education is the kids in New York City. No

but I'm saying each year they walk away scot free. No. No accountability and suddenly the people demand accountability when they can't account for it. And so the label of anti-Semitism gives them government relief. I think you are going further than that. I don't know. But my feeling is I had contact with some new york city supervisor and teachers maybe eight 10 years ago and I and I had and I felt I understood. I think they were like inside. And my feeling was that first of all they are very that they tended to be at least 10 15 years we're very proud of the degree of their training. Professionality was something I'm sure you can recall. You would agree with that. For example one of the points was made to me well other places people who teach come from teachers college. Here we come from a city college in Brooklyn and Queens. We've got a very good education. They're proud of it professionally perhaps for that reason. They sense they thought they a very good idea without question. I mean I was I they didn't have any good idea. I agree that there may have been that because they thought they were there and

I don't think they probably had that because I don't think they feel they failed you know make sure they have enough evidence to think that they should have the office right there in there. What disturbs me is that we are talking about the failure. Of public education in regard to the education of black children in terms of Jewish negro relations. Well the fact of the matter is that this failure of public education with regard to black children cuts across the entire country in public school systems which are not dominated. By Jewish people in the professional areas in the south where they girls teach Negroes you have far greater or at least according to all the test scores at any rate. So the problem with Jewish negro relations seem to me to go beyond this question of conscience in regard to public education failure. It involves such things as. The excuses that are given in New York New York City. About say the Jewish landlord

or the Jewish store merchant. And now almost every one of those areas you do have deficit. Or efficiency of service which is tied to the person who provides the service. But I just don't see how we can that may compound it in New York in that sense. But again you have to look at what the real real reality is that situation you have all the policy makers of policy implemented in education in New York City Radom do. That's true in Boston. But in this particular instance you have that situation and then when you look at such things as housing and employment and the labor unions and so forth which is dominated by the Jewish people the construction is on the way down. That's right. And all these people and they are right. I mean Andy and finches have one of the sensitive areas of our conflict with the police and of course the police are not Jewish either. In fact one of the major crises that Mayor Lindsay had new

administration was bringing in a Giuliani top policeman which was 8 0 0 0. And yet despite this I think there is a special negro Jewish thing here which is not that negro Irish at negro time it's something special. I think it has two reasons. I'm a little vague about both of them. But one reason is I think both of these groups are crucial the enormous sensitivity as to the plot as to as pressure this oppression ultimately genocide. You know the sense of the word the way the word genocide covers the black communities is very striking to me and I but in other words they react fast because they've they've had experience of how bad things can get. I think that the experience of the black people let's face it. That you don't underestimate you I think you know you talk about the poker game I think is a very good image. You know we didn't know what cards they were holding but you have to think of the other side of not know what cause you were holding. Of course the sensitivities one has to be honest in believing in the sense that

even if one can believe that they are unjustified they are incredible when you think of the feelings of the Jewish communities in this country. In May June 68 over the war and the sense the Israelis have been killed you know the. They're all going to be killed. And it's tremendous. You know the outpouring of money feeling involvement and. The sensitivities are real. You know so you know it's true it's hard to rate. Three hundred years ago now Tatra admittedly but don't underestimate the feeling of them. That's why I'm a student and I wait the last 10 years 300 years just grew back in the same but just to be but just if one wants to be effective in the situ in any situation if one wants to you know be effective. That one has to be aware of sensitivities even if one sees them as irrational. You only ask what you're asking to go one way. No. No. They are I would say it has to go both ways. The fact is that it does well I would certainly insist that should go both ways. In other words I think that I think

that you know one of the reasons I called you insensitivities irrational and I do call him irrational in measure is because I'm not aware of the very good reason and you know the excellent reasons for super sensitivity on the part of blacks. Obviously we can carry this one on and on. But I'm saying to you in one instance that segment of the population has the resource the power in terms of repression you know and then you go back and look at it in more social form again and so forth that you can put these people into a sort of framework in which you force them to operate on the other hand the other hand is all you have the ability to let me answer your question either way. If you look in New York City in terms of this anti-Semitism from the black community and see the the numbers of areas where they have tremendous impact. Justifiably not how they are accused and blast this across the mass media as the problem for black people in this country is when you can obviously see it spread. Take another example when the Ku Klux Klan. Right. He had them in

different places. And anybody who puts on a sheet can carry on films or even come in. We didn't identify me related to Graceland. So it's not unusual to see how this thing would spread when you want to as I've mentioned to other communities black communities we're talking about trying to change education. This question very obviously comes up because when you're talking about the union is being one of those with a foot in your throat and the voter ID and so forth and so on looking at the people who are predominantly in the control position for the Jewish name. But that's I think the black community spreading this kind of relations. But that seems from the perspective of New York City that the critical urban problem confrontations in New York City is say education. That does seem to be primarily not exclusively but primarily a negro Jewish confrontation. And.

One of the things which disturbs me is the fact that on both sides there were incredible statements which tended to escalate the polarization of negroes and Jews and if I were a white prejudiced Anglo-Saxon Protestant you know both and the negro and anti-Jewish I would be having a wonderful time during the past year or so because the millennium occurred two seeming allies of the past both. With reality reacting to the fact of oppression and the possibility of oppression. And we've been working together on the problems of Justice in America in the south. Now when the problem moves to the north. And they go on I can't let you go. You are losing I think you are. My question is very simple in the sense of you put so much emphasis on anti-Semitism

because of the historical background which you relate to when I would suggest to you now. Mirken subsided the emphasis should be on anti-black fortnights but it doesn't carry the same kind of emotionalism and why. Well maybe one reason is because we are more adapted to. We've gotten used to and the negro feelings and we've been in one of the things which I tried to say on some panel discussions in which Nathan Lazar. Was a participant on some but maybe we should never never discuss anti-Semitism among Negroes without at the same time discussing. The negro feelings among Jews. I'm quite sure you wrote the article 1947 in commentary I commissioned as you are for a student on this and I think it was a very good article and in fact I made that quite thoroughly as early as 1990 on everything that I say this but what can that mean in your quest both put this in perspective. I recall as a student in high school that. Maybe I had the wrong title for the book.

Rothschild. To do with the. Rise of a Jewish family in the heart of strife and he became millionaires and had influence. On government politics and so forth. And I can recall as a youngster we would review all merchants in the community as being Jewish. But you know and they made such you know obviously an economic area. And I don't think it's but there has to be a lot of cross discussion on this. I'm always becoming converted into cultural education in my old days because you know again how people see it is critical because a lot of you look at it from the outside you know there's all this business about people look at statistics of they improvement and they say what is it you know but how people see it. How did how did you see it. It's very important. For example no it is no question Jews in this country are rich and powerful. And I do not think that is a stereotype remark when you come in hardly speaking to the average state is certainly right.

Right. But I want to say something I want to say something that shows how a group that is very rich a group that is fairly well often fairly well connected. Let's put it that way. Correct. Nevertheless can have great fears because of its history and histories and so forth. I mean take the Jews of Germany and the Jews in general also very well off and very well connected and most of them got killed you know. So that this this plays a very important role in Jewish consciousness. No it's not it's only it's only 30 years ago it's only 30 years and everybody has relatives and their relatives arriving after the concentration camps in the 40s. Now I have a dozen cousins who arrived in the late 40s that promulgated your interest and your concerns and your ways in promulgating them putting it into one into into long and to a of promulgating that interest to them isn't really I have to come back to your statement of Jews in this country are rich and powerful. And

maybe try to highlight this as maybe part of the problem. This categorization of. Whole groups of people how do we get away with this kind of thing right now where it's a terrific shorthand as tremendous dangers. And this I think is part of the problem and they grow Jewish relations because one of the things that fascinate me about this is that there are there are many Jews who do seem to me to overreact to what seem to me to be minor or insignificant manifestations of anti-Semitism among Negroes. I quite agree. I feel this issue of overreaction is very important and if I were to give you Jewish organizations advice stop overreacting you have all these people who are confused that he anti-Semitism but don't jump up you know when a man makes a mockery of this. Now I can understand the sensitivity but I think the group should feel secure enough

not to give it further at home and will never let me focus on this right now. Yes anti-Semitism among Negroes is to me relatively small compared to the anti-Semitism among the general white population in America small quantitatively but even more important and small in terms of possible effect negroes could not possibly be significant dangers to the stability of Jews in America in terms of the relative power. And. Therefore what I couldn't understand is why when someone as sophisticated and as intelligent as Albert Shanker you blow up the signs the rantings and ravings of a pointer into such magnitude as to get so many Jewish and Negro people exercised about this which confuse the basic issues of education.

Confuse the basic issues of both groups being equally interested in trying to have a more democratic society. This leaves me closed up because as I understand it this morning. And I'll preface it by saying I was. Tacitly forced to meet with a number of rabbis during this period of Simitis even invited them to come out and visit the schools and so forth and on on almost on a sworn statement they will come in and never show. But. Today. I'm saying there was a demonstration in front of one of my school for my group of contingent rabbis. Over a statement that the black teach me which he characterized or they characterize anti-white. And making demands. Now I'm saying that it strikes me as being unusual at this particular point that they must have heard these kinds of statements every day. Why suddenly do they come into this arena.

Replete with all the problems one of which anti-Semitism one. And further aggravate the situation. Well there's obviously a lot of political forces involved but I don't want to get away for I don't have any influence or control about it. I would not want to get away from it and I don't know if we're worrying too much is that I would agree on the overreaction. I think the overreaction has a long history. I recall exciting complimentary Yes and I you call it commentary you know the Jewish organizations when I start the campaign maybe they did against vacation resorts which said churches nearby. That was implicit. I said what's the nonsense. Why can you say churches nearby if it means you don't like Jews that's all right. Well. And yet you know there was this kind of you know the last fragment of anti-Semitism has to be wiped out I feel the last Fragonard that I stepped into. He wiped that out to wipe out most of the world against that. So I know I'm not worried about the last fragment of anti-Semitism but at the

same time it has you know in terms of what it has to be understood that there is the sensitivity there is you know it has an important emotional credible emotional power just as justice for relatively small quantities of anti-New ego is have enormous motivating power. For example one of the demands. To refer to the current situation here at Brandeis I notice in this morning's paper is that a white student who shot a baby got in a negro student should be expelled. Well I don't know. Maybe it was prejudice maybe it was like overreaction. And yes without knowing the details it may not be you know it. Maybe you should be expelled withdraw from that. And that strikes me as a business where I can you know like nothing get passed. But I think that in a way we have to be both Hafler a lot of things get passed and I would I would certainly give a lot of Jewish organizations that advice. Let me take your cliche and say let's go way back and talk about control

and decentralization. Now basically the minority members are confined to a geographical area of which they have no control and I don't want to characterize any group having control over. Any single group having control at least black people don't have control over their own community. And yet you can go into the other ethnic communities where they have the controls of the black community begins to as as ask for the right. To self-determination for self-determination suddenly and I don't call it overreaction. Suddenly all of the political chicanery and so forth comes into being such as anti-Semitism. I'm saying if it was a genuine interest to make America the kind of society it's supposed to be. This kind of movement would have

been facilitated in a joint effort would have just kind of what you call an overreaction global warming. You know I think you're ignoring a few things. One of them is that I believe you had a right to cooperation and facilitation but there was a lot of overreaction on the other side. Now we're getting back to the other issue namely the there were those hundred teachers that wouldn't be let back in after they struck. That seemed to me like you know really has a pretty strong action. You know I was up in Westchester County. They dismissed the teacher for wearing miniskirts. You wouldn't want to do that. You know what I'm just saying. I mean about preventing hundred teachers from returning. I'm saying to you where there is local control in areas that are not black I mean they can find things which are much more minor. And I think they're I think you're making a distinction between two things with this whole notion that other people have power and black communities don't have power. And I'm going to show up to a point where I was just now in black communities for example elect

representatives they get people in to talk about New York City they have people at the legislature have counsel and they have they have substantial representation in the parts of city governments. We don't have power and they don't have power quite a few plays they don't have power in terms of local merchants in that area. They don't have power in terms of. They own a good deal of real estate. By now I don't know how much money they're owning more I hope. I would like to see measures to get them more and more and more the local stores and so on. And when it comes to the schools if they don't have power after all why was the centralization so popular once in New York. It was because the whites didn't have cars other schools either. How often do those white parents associations meet and complain and carry on. And they couldn't even get the school to admit their kids to school on a cold day with slacks you know because they didn't have local control. Otherwise none of them had local control. It was the Board of Education was a great central bureaucracy which ruled it in that sense. While I do think the powerlessness has to be seen in have a degree

rather than difference of kind I mean parents in the Bronx that they fight that of white communities that seem to have enough power to block desegregation when the negro communities sought to increase the quality of education for their children. They were really confronted with a solid pretty solid like the resistance to even minimum hours as I noticed before said to me it does me and another kind of way. Why didn't you begin to describe segments of our country or community if you get down to specific like the politicians you say it's representation in government. Substantial so substantial until they can effect anything positive for you communities. I mean they don't have that. We use this democratic process correct. We are. And so like in Albany we had the black legislators up in Albany supposedly crying and pleading for meaningful decentralization bill using the democratic process which is what even

heard you talk about virtually every card in the union particularly the teachers union. Let me go one step beyond that you talked about owning more real estate. You know we've been tricked into believing that owning real estate which is a burden saddle you're paying it back to the government and taxes we don't own the productive real estate. You see you talk about stores owning stores in the community exempted that and I say those are the ones the big deal with them. They are saddled with having to perpetrate on the people the higher prices and the people who run to the safe ways to try to change. I'm suggesting that when people come across this to what we do here. Well I mean a real objective analysis is we don't have. Yeah well I agree with you like you don't have but I think this is one of the reasons for decentralization I think one way of increasing black power is through sections of the city where they would have full control of various kinds of jobs and

services and so on. Gentlemen how do you increase black power in that regard. Without concretize and racial segregation without making the walls of the ghetto really insuperable. My honest feeling is I will live to see if you want to see what that kind of decentralization black power. I mean in a meaningful sense Rhodey are you saying a number of really pessimistic and. I think I see these things as even. Years. You're saying really that you don't expect expect effective decentralization of the school. So the New York City which really means that you don't respect the fact that these I have a relation to country throughout the country. You don't expect that the relationship between two two is. Most vociferous minorities

Wally Legros. Black. And already a Jewish minority will ever get a working relationship that is mutually advantageous. And now you're saying you don't expect to see effective black power which is easy to me. And you know my bias on the black power thing really the ultimate segregation under the guise that segregation offers helps with the struggle against segregation did not bring what I have. I have some very probably a skewed point of view about it. I mean for instance. Let's say right here that if you took sides you were numerically outnumbered. In what regard. I mean just physical physical normalcy. When you call the Jewish population a minority. If you're talking about it in relationship to numbers that may be one thing but when you talk

about it in terms of economics then I don't think they fit in in the realm of the same terminology of minorities in the same way you want to talk about blacks and I don't see anybody at least I haven't seen any indication I think about the poverty programs and all of the so-called social legislation and how it changes when it begins to address itself to a majority of black people. And my personal feeling is really this is economics and I don't see any way I haven't seen it yet any way conceivable but you would actually want to have this power until such time as there's a real revolution. Really you are an educator and one of the tragedies of the. Endless controversies surrounding the ocean you know Brownsville. Thing up to the present is the fact that you have not. Been given the opportunity to really function and devote most of not all of your energies to educational innovation you know seeking

new ways of motivating and teaching children who previously had not been adequately tied. Now how are you going to reconcile your. Training and your primary concern with problems of education with a sort of. Underlying pessimism which I think you have to understand which direction I want to go and what my commitments on I say. And I feel that this one I serve a useful function that is an attempt to educate to not necessarily Bachner not necessarily just chill but also to barriers of input and that's absolute and they're still being. Set up as impediments in very subtle forms sophisticated forms and so forth my vested interest groups and so forth. But what I'm saying to you is if I really can educate parents and children black from this and then this thing will catch fire people will continue to carry on the struggle because I don't I just don't believe in the span of my life. This thing is going to change when I'm some real drastic forms of revolution.

I must say it's very depressing because you know I'm all for the educational change my own political perspective suggests that if the major content of the education is going to be that nothing changes unless the revolution comes at some radical redistribution of power which I literally can envisage you know just as the redistribution that's going to be. Are you still a proponent of pluralism as the basis of our democracy which is why I mean I don't feel as I feel more positive in the sense about black power than you do. I think this is a kind of a valuable and necessary. OK let's call it stage. I'm trying to be doctrinaire example of some acquisition of power by blacks other than. What do you see as income tax. I'll I'll I'll give you some examples. I think they're very important examples I think for example the fact that in most. Top schools state colleges around the country who are now running to a point of about four or five percent

black students as against that only three years ago one percent or a half percent I think that's black power and the plans for that were been laid since the 54 decision. I'm not saying that that's a result of black hole. I'm saying you're saying Give me examples where there is power right where there is an increase of power for the potential potential I would say 5 percent or 4 percent black students who were going probably ahead of the next few years in top schools is power. It's power because if you get if you if you have two degrees in those schools you have access to important jobs you have access to great income and so in other words that's an example. Another example I just gave you a few. I think the fact that you have a few hundred dead negro legislators around the country is power. To the fact that the five from Brooklyn or New York couldn't swing the centralization As well enough. Nobody swings everything but our knowledge. But it is

after all it's not a majority. I mean it's all about complements rather than power. Now let me just take you college how power is power. It's not either or not either have or you don't have a rule you can't give away everything. Of a very significant kind of you know what I'm saying know what I'm saying is. And it was very significant to me in which you portrayed the numbers of black students in the top colleges are increasing. And then they go into better jobs higher paying jobs in program. By and large the majority of men program to leave the black community. Oh I. Now that you've been reading about the kinds of protests black students have been making. Some of them have even been asking for black colleges within the colleges with their of. Those things have become shall I say real in some instances and significant enough and somehow this has become real and significant whether if one is in a way whether one wants a black college within the white college where this is a bright idea you know well it's

obviously not a bright idea to be to be a sort of a regression childish wish for the past in the way I think you can take them in consideration what students see. That's why I'm going to say that these are all wise and maybe Oh come now. I mean they're human beings and I leave all the way. Obviously there is a real disagreement on this issue. I mean that generation sense there's a sense in which to which blacks do participate in areas of power and certainly there are huge areas that don't participate in you know like big business and so on. If you look at government I think there's a substantial participation look at New York City government in terms of areas of control and significance. I mean after all blacks make up what 15 percent of the population. They have their share. I mean out there 15 percent share it in some ways maybe that too and I guess one of the things that really is in the back of his mind which I hope does not reinforces pessimism is the possibility that when it grows to

push for a greater share in the policymaking described as as they actually are. A judgeships or never any group and you know like gentlemen you won't permit me to even get my sentence out that they can be. And there are examples of negroes being nominally in these positions but without the power that whites had when lazier than I actually am I was really for example. As a unit administrator in the ocean Bill Brownsville area. Maybe one of the mistakes that Rodier McCoy made was to leave that in this role which is equivalent to a field superintendent that he could exercise the powers which ordinarily. Are given to field superintendents who are white or Jewish. When he attempted to do this he brought the whole white establishment. Down upon him. I think the key thing in this case we all ran over and said that

the black administrators not allowed to do this I think an administrator namely that you know why don't the administrators send off letters to 12 student teachers saying you know you're out there that there is some other way or why you know this of these are precautions less professional. Are you saying that when Negroes get into positions that they previously had not been and that there is a tendency for them to be too literalistic about how all of this is a conflict I didn't fool myself to believe that I was going to have comparable power. But I love an obligation I think I think would be pretty sad if and if it's true that it's sad. You know there there are two possibilities either when Negroes get into positions of power they tell themselves I really don't have the power to decide. And so it's really true. They get in that check later and don't have the power I had I worked for Bob Weaver at that at HFA for a year. And you know he was as far as I could see he was boss. Now it's also true that many people felt he wasn't

aggressive enough had of HFA and of a to day and so on. That's true of many cabinet officials. You should have heard they were saying about Celebrex when he was head of AGW I think we were doing better than that because I kind of I just don't see the. I think you know we put a black man a position of power inside of a weak and strong but I don't think that the rest of the world combined said strips them of the power of the gentleman we were talking when we were talking about Jewish negro relations we all agree that there was apparently hypersensitivity on both sides of that issue. Could it be that part of the predicament to minority status in America is to be hypersensitive about. Our status. You know I think that's true. I think there's another issue here and I read Oddly enough it hasn't come up. It's one of the aspects of hypersensitivity is Israel. And I wonder whether you know there's this peculiar business in which Jews see Negroes or some negroes and of course who

get an awful lot of publicity like the sneak statement or an occasional statement Stokely Carmichael where in which they see blacks identified with the Arabs and I don't know if blacks see themselves identify with the Arabs. But there is that kind of peculiar business and I think that I think probably black nationalists do as a Third World Alliance itself that's a kind of another little gimmick. You know in the. End I don't know if there is any significant portion of negroes who identify with Arabs. I recall. Malcolm X on his first pilgrimage to Mecca came back and was quite identified with the Arab world and Malcolm X initially made no bones about his. And he said it was not the semitism. He said that his reactions to Jews was simply that Jews were white. And you remember what he said that they were non-discriminatory and they tried say they

were Africans. But his second trip to Baghdad he came back I think a much more sophisticated man because he saw that these distinctions were not that easy to make you see. Most think grows as far as I can see he didn't have a stand you might take a position on what you just discussed. We did rather earlier about the. Parallelisms and the history of the Jewish people and their suffering in some form. It's not unusual to find the same kind of parallelism of conflict between the Jews and the rabbis among the least discussed positionally by the blacks. It's a common thing. I think it's quite common. What do negroes tend to. Even Be aware of the arrow. I don't I don't think there is. I don't think that any line drawn to say certain groups. I think it's a point of discussion among a number of groups representing cross-section of black

population and with a tendency to identify with Arabs the plight of the Arabs and my relationship to the play. If you're talking in particular those. Blacks who are looking at the political economic implications for black people on the nation to see the Arabs as like in some sense Arabs don't see themselves as blacks. I can recall that Africans didn't see themselves black for numbers. It's also true we had a lot of Jews don't see themselves as Jews I'm thinking of a lot of the young radicals some of whom were teaching in the optional Brownsville schools and. And why do we call them what are you saying that they don't see themselves as Jews because they're teaching in the ocean. No. I saw that but I don't see themselves as the stereotype official sort of oriented Jew that we've been talking about. The one you know as I was Jewish This is what I have namely what I mean is that they they probably they don't particularly I don't know but many of them feel less strongly about Israel their

parents too many of them would feel less strongly about anti-Semitism or less sensitive. Isn't it conceivable that a Jewish youngster or a young Jewish person could feel very strongly about Israel. And by virtue of how strong you feel about self-determination you know in Israel identify yourself with the quest for self-determination. That's quite it. But I don't think any light moves that way I think it's rather the young Jews who become more radical and disaffiliated. Well the first perfectly fair description that me the radical in the sense that they don't call radical the Peace Corps Peace Corps not right. My my observation of the young whites who might see him as two to one. And then Oceano Brownsville is that they remind me of nothing more than Peace Corps types in motivation and that. Sometimes a high degree of greater sentimentalism than maybe a professional could.

Commit young. No I would not limit this kind of commitment to young Jews who are radicals certainly not another. I'm not saying that only Jews who are radicals have a kind of commitment to greater power for Negroes or the teaching in ghetto schools or to independence for the detention lies district and so many other Jews too. I merely say that young Jews who are radical would very often have this kind of commitment and other Jews also see from and then go back to what we were talking about in terms of those handful of blacks who reached a certain level of competence. And you talked about we've. Seen one of the problems I see today is that unless the stamp of approval of the staff is very broad and the establishment doesn't recognize the black on the corner we see in other words he comes out of an indigenous community group and they don't put the stamp of approval on him when he's not a

leader or he's not a spokesman he's not something the negroes don't know. Of course it's something that we suffer in that predicament because of other reasons. But when you tell us about the accomplishments we've seen other people like this when you say relate to the black community and people who the establishment picks and establishes me powerful figures and so forth which is in a sense to them. Another time for me. Now you go back to the radicals who come in this night and you see we heard this regular We have all kinds of attempts on the part of. This particular instance Tom my views population to destroy the credibility of somebody's own institution who lean towards doing him a sympathetic ear. We don't see. The black community. For instance the pamphlet put out by the Anti Defamation League No the one that was written on the truth about due process of the New York Civil Liberties Union. And almost immediately their credibility was destroyed.

I don't think destroyed. OK. You you you you wrap it there gentlemen. One of the things which I think we ought to spend a little time on is the fact that in our complex large American cities particularly those in the northeast a underlying. Urban problem. Is the problem of ethnic competition ethnic politics that are as I see it. These movement of the civil rights struggle. Into the urban areas has as one of its byproducts. And one of which is fascinating is the fact that for the first time. Negroes and in New York City. Puerto Ricans and in Los Angeles Mexican-Americans are really entering into the ethnic politics the

ethnic competition demanding shares of power and spoils which is 40 or 50 years ago. Other ethnic groups were fighting about among themselves there. It was not a black white confrontation in the beginning of this century and up to 30 it was Jews against Irish Catholics or poles against Italians or Italians against others. Now we have introduced. Into the American Historical urban ethnic competition. The additional factor of race and color. Do you think this will have the same type of resolution as the pass that's like politics or will it be more assassinating or disturbing. Any more disturbing can be wrong. Yeah because we're seeing evidences of it. For instance the mayor has his Mobius city home and they go to the various communities and get a sound being at a community is on important issues and

so forth. And where formely the same situation exists between Catholics and Protestants they one time when Jews were fighting that's for Catholics for a stake in the educational system now. Well that's right in a community where that existed prior to the present conflict. They now have joined us to fight the black because this is race knowledge is like. A nation with night I generally I don't know why I've come out so optimistic tonight. I can't believe that this thing is not going to be settled roughly with a lot more trouble. I would agree is that the cops would be much more severe the race angle and so on. But I'll tell you why I don't why I think it will be settled the other way where at least it can be settled. I mean the way it's been settled in the past. And this is a lot here you know we could see you might disagree the way it's been settled in the past is that people that have been pushed out have always been pushed up when the Irish rose to take power in Boston and they kicked out the

Anglo-Saxon. You know people from politics and from the Bible at least from politics and from schools. They went out to the suburbs and they had no other place to go to that they were losing that much. When the Jews moved into the public school system it didn't mean that the that the Irish teachers and the German teachers are now forced to become out of the ditch diggers they moved on to other things or less of them because they didn't lose they didn't lose they just increased it. Now my belief about the nature of the society is that if you just simply look at changes in kinds of occupational patterns in fact they're much less labor as they used to be much less service than they used to be much many fewer unskilled workers and they used to be the patterns of the society as such that. It always tends to produce not always at least a growing economy tends to produce more jobs at the top than at the bottom. This is a peculiar thing I mean more jobs the middle there is that most people don't believe it but it's kind of true. In other words the Hard Rock Block. Backbreaking low status jobs simply decline under those

circumstances. The people that they're in competition with economically are going to fight and fight very hard. Nevertheless will be pushed up towards the top are not tossed out push will have other opportunities. Now the question is this. Now this is a very Olympian statement. Oh they'll have other opportunities all those 50000 teachers don't see it quite that way. Now they really require a lot of a tremendous amount of statesmanship protection for some you know acceptance of acceptance of sharing and a reduced power from many others and so on. And I think in this process there will be a reduction of racism. Well I think that I think I don't see a reduction for some time to come and the sense of a racial type feelings. But I think that the I think this system this process can be ruined people can ruin a process. People who are in a process by such unbending such hatred such stubbornness that the opportunities for a successful resolution can be destroyed. So I think it's a great danger.

So I can say that I'm continually pessimists. Let me take a different point of view and I'm not. Saying I'm playing the devil's advocate here I'm following you pretty close. I think you have your fingers on the pulse of certain people. But let me cite two examples. This is a mistake examples and not a little I'm not here. When you're sitting with a group of people. Who identify an ethnic group and you have people who are going up the social and economic ladder and I say to you point five years ago I live in Lower East Side which was a ghetto thing you see. And we made it. And when they flew the ghetto who do the same get over to the person or on the totem pole. Another example I said well what I think are influential it became this very same topic I'm

thinking and self-determination and so forth. We got around to a point we're finding if you got to do You Revolution you couldn't do it with sufficient National Guard and police to repression and the conversation escalated to the fact that there are a lot of black people in the repression going to be expensive even asked me main point what if we're doing this and why we're doing this we have to be concerned about our national and international women's. And it seems to me. Very contradictory in a sense to what you're suggesting here with I would hope you'd see this as contradictory. I mean I see the first what is self-contradictory because the fact is you know if you just look at the facts and figures in this you know that people the accept that something similar is happening in the ghettos less people live in Hala. And isn't that Bedford-Stuyvesant it used to or if

less people live in half and a lot of people are a smaller percentage of that small percentage than actually a smaller percentage and even the resolutely somewhat less. But what happens in that particular picture is just like what's happening in New York in some of the other urban centers where these absentee landlords are perpetrating and perpetuated the ghettos. And suddenly with the influx influx of federal funds and new programs and housing they let these houses go to rock bottom. Which forces the people out to some degree and then they move in and build a tremendous road. I really like to ask you very specifically do you see this spiral downward spiral as the future. Well see now I can counter it right now I have a note of optimism please. I would say to you that once the children of youth are educated that's to check and my strong belief that our future in this country rests with our youth. And that's why you are your having

a great week. We adults can only sit and philosophize and do a number of kinds of public postures. I'm not really related to change the things that you say. You change is upgrading the quality of education for minority group young college or on these youngsters and I think that's the checkpoint because I think these young as you call them radicals and so forth are more recent and that's the generation gap is coming to get a more understanding and more receptive. And it's not so much that they are not been programmed by their backgrounds but they have more empathy and more determination to bring these two societies together. I mean society do you think they would create in terms of black white or you know the in terms of different ethnic and racial sharing they begin what they would think that would create an ethnic group inside the West in a way I kinda feel I don't know. I have a lot of faith in them and I believe they are. Why do you have faith in the young people. Absolutely. Even though these young people are the products or the way that you don't have. But there are a number of people who are doing the best people you know of and yourself and to

vindicate mass peep mass public which the children are receiving the benefit from. And some people do you see as the future. Glaser Well I the cities and the ethnic problems which underlies all the other problems. So I think I'm going to just doing a quick one. We've even gone so far as to find. Some of our young radical whites Jewish and others along with blacks taking over. Poor housing right there in our community renovating it moving in. Kind of faith in these youngsters. I think there is one you know terribly serious danger in that. What troubles me very much and that is that that the society is conceived of. As being far more rigid unchanging racist and monolithic than it is is because I have a problem. I have a conviction that you know that people like people Piep

society is very much what people think it is not entirely obviously but a very substantial part of its direction and future is determined by how people envision it as they envision it in this way and they will carry out the actions that will tend to make it this way. And this is one of the things that concerns me and otherwise bank on the use. I want to I would like them to see that there is there are degrees of flexibility and the opportunities for change and and this is why I have a kind of investment in seeing ocean Hill Brownsville even at present with its state. Whoever they are first rate trustees as more successful than you suggested overseas. All right. So you do see if we could change our perspective as well as change the realities of our cities would certainly have to change realities too that I think the ability to change them is in part dependent on open perspectives. I think a lot of offers hope for the future. I would think so.