A Conversation With Muhammad Ali

Quite an athlete across from me. He used to be named Cacius Marcellus Clay Jr. and his business was price -fighting. As a fighter, he became, in my opinion, and certainly in his own, the greatest. At the age of 25 now, he calls himself Muhammad Ali and he's unemployed as a fighter. His title is Gone, ripped away by various boxing commissions in the name of patriotism. He's been sentenced to five years in prison for refusing induction to the United States Army. Eight years ago, he stood on a podium in Rome. An American flag blowing in the breeze, the star -spangled banner being played. He was given a gold medal as an Olympic champion. People thought, here's a kid with a bright future. And he was known as the so -called credit to his race. He had talent in the ring and he had maybe more talent outside of it. He loved Ballyhoo. He loved putting on the nation with a great put on that he was the greatest. He maybe was the greatest poet since Robert Frost. At least he had more of his poetry published, saying Archie Moore must go in for things like that. But then the day after he became champion, he turned off. A lot of the country by revealing that he was a convert

to a religious sect known popularly as the black Muslims, and formerly as the nation of Islam. And that antagonized a lot of the American people. So now his principal role is as a Muslim minister. He's had a varied career in exciting, bizarre, celebrated career, and now perhaps a discouraging career. Or is it discouraging right now with this five -year sentence? No, so I would say what I'm doing now is more encouraging. And I get more out of it than boxing. Boxing was only for self -gain, just beating up one of my brothers or somebody else's brother for money, possibly hurting him for life, which I didn't intend to do when I'm lucky. I never really did. But I would say I'm getting more pleasure out of lecturing at the first Muslim mosque, converting so -called nigh clothes. You're a minister of the Muslim faith. Yes, though. I don't really like your Muhammad. We preach his teachings throughout America to our

people. And I enjoy this much better than boxing far. If I didn't, I would still be boxing. I chose this over boxing. What about jail? Your appealing? Is that correct? Oh, yes. So jail. That could come up. And if I should lose appeal, then I'll have to go to jail. And I'll be out of there in a few years. Have you thought about jail? What it might mean? Have you talked about people who have been in jail five years? Well, well, we'll talk about the Honourable Elijah Muhammad. The black people actually have been in jail for four hundred years. We've been here in America. But I don't worry about jail. I believe in our law. I believe any Elijah Muhammad is the messenger of God. And many great men have to go to jail. And so I don't pay no attention to it. The time comes. I'll just have to go. Boys in Vietnam are dying for what they believe. And I can't get on them for dying for what they believe. So I'll just have to. And they're dying to free or farm people ten thousand miles away. So I'll just have to suffer

so that the so -called Negroes could be free. So they could have idle and the image they can look up to that didn't sell them out. Do you think you can do more for your people by going to jail? Oh, yes, sir. There's a report that your manager Herbert Muhammad advised you to enter the army. No, no, sir. No, sir. He couldn't do nothing like that. Everything I do is off my own. He couldn't advise me to go to army. When did that report come out? That report was in a New York paper about two weeks ago. No, I didn't. This is just a room was there. I can't believe that I'm this strong. They thought they would weaken me and put fear in me by threatening to go to jail and taking my iron and power. And they won't let me work in America. The government won't let me leave America where I can work. And I'm getting stronger. And this shakes up a lot of people to see that in this strong. It also makes other so -called Negroes strong who are facing the same problems. And in this way, I think I can do for more for my people. They've never had a big black man that just stood up and identified with the struggle of his people a thousand percent. Once they can get them a white girl, a blonde, a broom at a $100 ,000 home show on

Broadway. Usually, every Negro watching this show now will tell you that you can't talk to them. They're too big to be with their own people. They go marry other than their own kind. And I'm so happy and proud to become great in boxing. To become the greatest one that ever lived. The greatest. Yes, the greatest box that ever lived. I'm the first one that they had to take a title from in the history of all the red, white, and blue American title. I'm the first one that they tried to make the world believe that wasn't the champion. And never has been beaten. What about this title now, Ali? If you're in jail five years, can you come back and be the champion? Well, I don't know. I'm not really worried about boxing. The more I'm in the spiritual works that Elijah Muhammad preaching, preaching the word of Allah, God, I forget about sports. It's not in my blood. I don't eat raw steaks no more. They make you vicious. I just eat lamb now and fish or holy foods. And this keeps me from being vicious feeling. And I really don't miss it. I have nothing else to gain. I beat the best German had to offer. The best that Canada

had to offer. England, the best that America had to offer. Two -time United State Golden Globe Champion. AAU Champion twice, Olympic gold medal winner. Defended the title nine times, predicted the rounds. All my opponents wrote poems in poetic fashion. How they would fall. And I cannot go no father in sports. And first, another thing I like to say. I'm the only black man that black people can now say have so champion. Like, I would say, Marzana. That's undefeated and retired off. That's true. So, Julius came back. He let the people down. He got beaten. And Chugaree was a black pride. And they got him beat up. But I'm the first one to be never beaten. You think you might just stay in defeat? Yes. Is there a conflict now? You say, and I certainly believe you and have been with you for long enough to know that you're very sincere in your beliefs. That you're a man of God now, a minister. Is there a conflict between that and being a price fighter? Well, yes. We don't believe in sports. A man of peace. We don't

believe in sports. And, uh, we lose some of you speaking. Right. We don't consider boxing men violent. It's just a sport. It's nothing. We're not attention. It's not the kill. All we use is our fists and their pad. And we have referees, doctors, and judges. The rainside. The intention is to beat the man outporn him. And I've been criticized. So, not hurting me and been criticized for carrying him. Because I don't like hurting about it. I show it all. It's in my fights. But if I did fight again, the only reason would be was to get out of debt. This is the only way that I have to make the necessary money to pay my travel lawyers, which are $280 ,000 that are spent in the company. $280 ,000 for your appeals or your trials. You're fighting for justice, cost me that much. And then other things. Back out of the morning to the wife. And I can't pay nobody now because I'm not allowed to work and out of the country. So, if I did fight, it'll be for those reasons. Just boxing itself. I can box tomorrow if I want to. I can just go to gymnasium and box, but it's the money. Three years ago, when we were coming on the way from Boston and Big Red, your great bus with Poudini, Rao. Otis 5x was driving. We had quite a gang. You said, Dust Whitey's getting

the back of the bus, which we do before you did. And we had a lot of fun. And the last fight, just even though you had all this on your mind and all the pressure you were with Poudini and you put on the Dracula masks with Saria, one of your trainers. And we had a great time up there. And people who knew you, and you've had a lot of criticism from the press, but people who lived with you and knew you, knew what kind of person you were and you enjoyed being championed. The people being around you and the notoriety and the celebrity you enjoyed that. Do you miss that now? No, no. As I said, I can't go to, I can't go no higher in boxing. There's no one I could beat who could get me more praise than a boxer. I'm always around people. I'm still around people every day. I'm around six up and traveling with me today. Every city I go to, people are waiting for me. I just left college here. MIT. MIT University. And you were well received. We have a predominantly white audience. Yes, everywhere I go. We was up at Frallid Dickinson in New York. C .W. Post, I on a university.

Cornetius University. And Penn State and Morgan State College. And you like to be with people? Oh, yes. But I didn't mean that boxing didn't date nothing away from me as far as fame is concerned on people. I can always hold my head. I can always put on a neck tie. And I can talk. Most boxes. You bring them on the show now. Even the ones fighting. They couldn't talk like I'm talking now. I know it's in time. Thank you. Yes, so I have lots to fall back on. So I can't just ask you questions and loan. I just can't miss boxing. Do you remember Ali that night when we were on the bus? We were in Uly, Florida. We stopped to get some food. It was a Jim Crow diner. They threw Boudini out. And you didn't go in. I told him not to go at first. I told him not to go because I can tell. I went in first and the man said something. But we don't serve Negroes. I said, yes, I'm sorry. And I want to cause we who are Muslims don't believe in the force of our places. Self. And you said to Boudini that night you said you're following Martin Luther King and people like that. And you're

wrong. Did you not? Now I don't remember saying that. I'm not even mentioning him. I'm sure I didn't. I said. But I think you said something about that wasn't the way to go about. Well, I said, the man don't want you there. And this is his restaurant. And if he hates you that much to put you out of the shoot his own white brother to keep you out as a possibility that vanilla milkshake he won't. When he go back to fix it, he could spit in it. And I'm sure somebody's spitting the milkshake and mix it up. You couldn't see it. And I don't see why you have to be sick mentally to want to force yourself in the places where you're not wanted. You see the man hates you. You see they don't want you down here. I want you to leave me alone. We're going somewhere else. He said, no, I'm going in. I'm an American. I'm an American. I got a right to go. I said, well, come on out. I've got bitch. I'll come out with whatever. Five minutes later, he came out with nothing. He said, treat me like that. I'm a man. I told you to leave the people alone. They didn't want you. You just make yourself look like a fool. So we went on down the street and not the white bears. We could eat it. Right. But tell us about the Muslims now. As I said, the day after you, when you remember that very well, Sonny Liston, the big old

bear, as you call him, sat in his corner, quit to you. You became champion of the world. Everybody thought this is a refreshing young man. He always wondered what was his trainer talking about. I let you finish right after this. You know what his trainer was talking about when this and this and this dude? No. He said, sonny, sonny, get up the bear room. Sonny said, my mama didn't raise no fool. I'm standing right here on my stool. You got that poetry still going? What was you going to say? No, I was going to say that the next day, Ali, when everybody was saying the stereotype thing, here's a refreshing young man. We found out you were a Muslim and people got scared. I got bad, I almost said, yeah. People got scared. You got bad all of a sudden, right? That was a good boy when I was hauling. I am the greatest. I cannot be beat. I am pretty. I am the king. He, he, he. That was a good boy. But when I said, I'm a Muslim. My religion is Islam. What's wrong with that? You have 600 million Muslims on earth. And Muslim only means one who submits the entire to the will of God, our law. And Islam only means peace entire submission

to God. And we don't believe in forcing ourselves on white people. You hate the white people. You know what I'm saying? Why is that grown -up you supposed to know? This is probably handed to scared Negroes to keep them from coming because of Negroes by nature. Love their enemy. They pray for those who use them. Negroes by nature don't hate nobody. And so they can make people think that we are a hate group that will frighten them. But we don't hate white people. We know white people. We know the history of white people. For an example, if a tiger broke in this room now, I would beat you getting out. If a rattlesnake broke in and out of beat you getting out for this stage, I don't hate rattlesnakes. I don't hate tigers. I just know I can't get along with them. After learning nature of the snake and the tiger, I don't want to try to eat with them or sleep with them because I know that he might bite me. You don't think that we can ever get along. I think that was your point. No, I know whites and blacks cannot get along. This is nature. This is getting worse every day though. The latest government fact found in the committee just said that things are becoming to be separate. Just two societies, black and white. That's what we've been telling you, separation. Now the government amiss that that's coming. White women have got gun clubs

all over the country. I don't know how to shoot the black targets. I understand they're making guns. They're shooting through brick walls just to get near grows. Do you believe that? I just know what I said. Mayor Deli on Chicago, I think. Some of the art of helicopters are something just with these rats. Rotate machine guns on them. All the breeding dogs that just attack black people. All kind of spray and mess and banana slick it. What are you going to do now as one of the prominent black people? I'm not going to be a leader. What is your role in this? I can't be a civil war as people call me. I can't be a leader but I can tell them about the leader. All I can tell them is to join on to their own kind. Accept their own kind. Join on to the true religion which is Islam. Join on to the Muslim teachings which is taught to us by the honor of Elijah Muhammad. The only black man preaching the truth to black people. Clean up your own neighborhoods. Do something for yourself. Quit begging to integrate the beg to separate. Well if number one, the army Elijah Muhammad and the religion of Islam has given me a beautiful name. Muhammad Ali which is connecting me with some 56 Muslim countries. I have

56 government limitations. This is why I wash it and won't let me go to Japan to fight. Because the prostitute in the turn of their cane to Houston and told the judge that if we let this man leave, he might not come back because he has 600 million miles on brothers that were gladly making him a millionaire fugitive. So this is what is done to me. Why I used to try to get a love of whites and beg to be with whites now. I can go set with kings in Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia. This has taught me a knowledge of myself. It taught me to love and respect my own people. It taught me to marry and my own women. All great Negroes. But you're obviously not uncomfortable with whites. I don't know. I know I'm uncomfortable. Are you uncomfortable with me right now? No, I'm comfortable. I'm real comfortable with you. Of course, I know how far to go with you. I'm not going to go home with you now and fight with your daughter. I'm not going to try to push you out of your suburb. I integrate so far. That's why I like Governor Wallace. He tells the truth. Do you like George Wallace? Yes, that truth. He tells the truth. You believe that?

I see him telling the truth. You don't believe he's been a tough influence in this country and a bad influence. Well, I don't want to be with everything nobody to say. But I like what he says. When he says that Negro shouldn't force itself in white neighborhoods. And white people shouldn't have to move out of the neighborhoods just because one Negro comes. They don't want to sell the house to him. He shouldn't. And that makes sense. If a person don't want you, why don't you even push yourself on him? And Wallace is a mitten that they're saying right. And let the people do what they want to do. They need local government. Why they can decide what they want to do in their own community. They just don't make some northern so -called liberal come in and bust the neighborhood up. And they all have to pack up and go somewhere else. And always be called. What would you say for your people? They're living in deplorable conditions in Chicago now. They're living in terrible conditions in Chicago. Oh, and this is all over the world living in terrible conditions. This is where he lies and how he teaches us that they need some land of them. Where they can produce and build their own homes, schools, factories and hospitals since they're suffering and been turned away from many whites. And get some land. Since we help build America to be fit to the richest states on the planet. If all in all the American wars to help maintain and uphold a government, why not should we have some of the land where we can build and construct miracles of doctors

and egg rolls of lawyers, physicians, some mechanics, plumbers, lecturers, why not? Can we go somewhere now and build a future for our children, such as other people? Why should we just remain beggars and employees? Why not? Can we go and a job? Do you think this could happen? In other words, you want some land in the United States. I realize in my home it teaches us that God told him, not me, that this land should be here elsewhere. Just like all people. No people can be free and independent without land. No people can be free if they can't feed themselves. No people can be free if they don't clothe themselves. Egg rolls of 22 million people, Elijah Muhammad teaches us. We don't make shoe strings. 22 million people don't have a toothpick factory. 22 million people. If you wipe people close and gross your stoves tomorrow, we will starve to death. But you have your own stars. Oh, Elijah Muhammad's bound hundreds of thousands of acres of farm land throughout the country, canning up food and taking it to supermarkets and his restaurants. He's building all over the country. He's got his

own colleges, universities. He's on radio worldwide now. National Indian America. He's on TV and Washington. He's prints two million newspapers a week called Muhammad Spears. And he's got mosque and temples all over the country. And he is the black man for black people to follow. He's not just asking for a job. He's not just asking for a house in the white neighborhood. This is nothing. See, Egg rolls actually fights for equality with the white men's dough. You may say, why? Well, when they say, we want open houses. And they're still not getting the dog and got the dog sleeps in the house with white people. And the bed, many of them. And Negroes want to ride on the best transportation up front with the white people. The dogs do bednets. He ride right in front seat. I see them when sunshine and dogs ride right in front seat cars. And Negroes, they won't eat the white man restaurant. And this and that still the dogs eat at the same plate. I see this. So in reality, the Negroes not fighting to be quality to the white man. He's fighting to be quality to the white men's dog to be equal. Equal to the man. He needs some airports. He needs some train stations. Some television companies. Some water plants. He needs some farmland. It's going to be hard to get, though, isn't it? And not if he has some land of his own. He has some land. And if the white man gave him justice and repaid him for building up this country and working 310 years. Some people

like to pay the car, Michael. Graph Brown say that the white man will not do this, though. Well, they have to be militant. They are militant. I think we really know these men, do you not? No, I'm good. We would look like fools trying to be valid against the most powerful military country on earth. We would look like fools running down a railroad track head on into a more locomotive train. You might say, look at that brave bull. But when that bull come head on with that train, all he will have left as his monument is his blood and his flush on the tracks. See, we can't be powerful against a man who makes the bullets, who makes the guns. We look like fools with a pop gun hiding on a rough shooting atomic. If every Negro had a machine gun, a tank, a bazooka, a year's round of ammunition and a good hideout, we wouldn't have a chance because we don't control no food. After two or three days, we'd be hungry for us to be valid against America. We would have to have superior weapons than America. And we don't have the factors in our earth to dig the material to manufacture the weapons. And if we would get the weapons, we would have to get them for you. You're not a great one. And I'm sure you are not going to give Negro's weapons the shoot you with. So I'm not here to talk sad on a grievous stoke. I don't grieve with rap brown. I don't

grieve with Martin Delay. Martin Luther King. We're all black people who are fighting for freedom just in quality. Everybody have their approach. There's a war going on in Vietnam. One man fights from the air. One man fights from the land. One man fights from on top of the water. One man fights in the submarine under the water. One man comes from, he's a secret service man on a spat. They're all fighting the same common enemies. They say the North Vietnamese and people. But they have different approaches. Negroes have different approaches for that freedom. One man believing in a great and one day we all be white. He say, look like white people. They have 200 years. One believe in education and politics will solve it. One believe shooting and looting and burning up the country will solve it. One man believe in integration will solve it. And we believe separation somewhere to ourselves will solve it. So we're not here to talk about these fellows. The same dog to beat them, beat me and biting me. But we just don't agree with their approach to the freedom. But we all are far from them if they are sincere in their way. And one day we hope that they will all soon recognize a true lady, Elijah Muhammad. And we'll all soon be moved. What do you think will happen? Elijah Muhammad is a very old man. One day he must die. He will die. One

day he will die. What do you think will happen to your group? Well, when he dies, we will be in heaven. We'll be in the hereafter on earth. America will be destroyed. And this will all be over. The Negroes with America will go down with America. When he dies, we will be free. His work will be over. And we have a feast just around the corner. We don't have a lot of more years in America. Tell us about it. And I would like to say that Moses died to Noah died. A lot died. All of God's prophets died. But they accomplished their missions. You can share Elijah Muhammad a prophet. He's a messenger. He's not here to tell us what's going to happen. He's tell us what's happening. He's a messenger. He's a messenger of Allah to the so -called Negroes. What about your own life now? You married? You have a young man? Yeah, I got a little baby on the way in about a month and a half. I have another little boy I hope. And I'm young enough to hold the crown until he's around. Do you think he'll be the champion? Well, I don't think I want in the box. I'm going to send him to school. And I'm going to make him study and work.

And he's going to be a wise man. He's home box. You're living in Chicago now? Right. I'm bumping a nice little home then. Fix it up nice and get me a little light. Beautiful 18 -year -old Muslim girl. Oh, yes, I got a couple of them old Cadillacs. But I'm trying to get my airplane cause of too slow them. I travel so much every day. I'm in certain cities. And I'm always moving. I always have calls and driving a kid with me. And so, and I would like to have my own private plane. And now I'm pricing a little jet. And I have a constant. It's like the Arcas. And Kansas City where they make those things. With your talk. They are working now with giving me a good deal on one where I may be probably police it. I guess I'll try into your personal affairs. There have been so many stories that you've been like Joe Lewis and that you're broke. Yeah. So your large $280 ,000 on one hand. Now you talk about buying a little jet. Yeah, I'm about going. I said at least. At least at the end. But tax of pay for it anyway. But what I'm trying to say is that yeah, I'm just about broke. I'm not allowed to work here now in America.

I'm not allowed to leave America. I'm not allowed to like Joe Lewis. I didn't fight 13 years. See. I was 29 fights and won them all. Yeah. But I was only at nine title fights. And out of those nine big title fights, my cut was $2 million. My cut after everybody got everything. That was your cut. $2 million. No, not after everything. This is before taxes. Before taxes. Yeah. After my manager was paid, after my opponent was paid, the peanut man, the popcorn man, and everybody. My cut was $2 million. And out of $2 million, the 10 white men, the back men, Louisville, they made a deal with the government behind my back. I knew nothing about it. Real quick, they made a deal with the government, where they would give the government 90 % of all my earnings, before I got them. This was called the Joe Lewis Law to keep me from being broke, they say. But 90 % of my $2 million went to the American government. So that only left me 10 % out of $2 million to live on. And out of that, I had to pay $150 ,000 to get rid of my first wife. Of course, she

went on with faith. And then naturally, it cost me money to live. So the money's about going. And not only me, I don't know why people are so confused over one Negro boxer getting low in funds or depleted in funds, when America's broke. America's now canceling trips and things to save money. So if you know if big, powerful America can get broke, you know a little Negro boxer can get broke. Well, that's true. You've severed all connections now with your management group and Louisville, which is the group that brought you on. Did you leave them in a friendly manner? Oh, yeah. A contract ran out. Now they wanted to renew it, but they didn't want to give me the price for it. So we just had to find another manager. You go back to Louisville often to see your mother? Oh, yes. I was there two days ago. I was in Louisville. But I don't have time to stay there too much. The town looks so small and the people move so slow. The friends are raised. They will still stand on the same corner. They ain't doing nothing, hanging around the same places. And when you get out and travel and knowledge and get, when you get knowledge, where's the understanding?

When you've been around the world a couple of times like me and talking to wise men like you, news paper men, and all these TV shows. And this makes you wise. And then tell us when you go back to these little one -horse towns, you just can't stay there two hours. You'll say, after a day, I'm ready to get out. Well, you've got to move. I've noticed that about you. Yeah, I've got to move. You've got to move. Even in jail, I'm going to have a moving plan. Move it from South to South. Knowledge. I don't know. Have you gotten any specific word about when they will act on your appeal? I got a lot of other days said, get ready because they're cleaning out your sale to take you on the trail to the jail sale without bail. Without bail? How are you getting ready? Yeah, if I have to, I'll tell my wife. She's packing up a few things. And I left a certain money. I bear it for her to go back to America. You bear it. You better watch the IRS probably watching this show. That's all right. I bear a lot of money that I make after

taxes. I make a little money. Like if I make up 1 ,500 dollars on speaking engagement, I give the government that 30%. Then I take what's left of mine. I don't put into banks because banks might go broke. Or they might get robbed. I just take my money and I hide it here and I hide it there. I tell her where the hideouts are. Well, you're not too worried. Now Bill Russell, whom you know, of course, who coaches the Boston students here. I said to him two years ago, I said, it's a shame that this boy who's such an attractive boy and such a fine guy and a good fighter has made wind up pro like Joe Lewis. And he said, well, let's just show us that you don't understand. And he said, you just don't understand that that's why we admire him so. You know, is it because he's ready to give up everything for his money? Well, yeah, I haven't. I haven't. I have a round of do this. And they don't see any issue with Joe Lewis. So these people you're talking about, they spent money on white women. They set up bars and they went playing pool and golf for $1 ,000 a whole. And they were known to make millions and millions when it wasn't no high

taxes. And they were not hindered by a white America. They were allowed to see the white America's completely closed all the doors on me. I'm not allowed to work in America. I was stopped right in my prime just when I started making money. So he can't compare me with nobody like Joe Lewis or nobody. And I have a turn. I think I can compare you with anybody. I can, yes. And tomorrow I can go back to get the money if I would only deny my faith. If I would only join up against my religion, I could easily go back to making millions. So I can always say that I turned this down. I didn't lose it. I turned it down. And I go out still with my head high. You've always had your head high, man. Yes, I'm thinking. I'm not on what they call Uncle Tom. And money was a flesh in the blood of my freedom. A flesh in the blood. And the freedom of my people comes before money. And this is why black people of nowhere today, the white man, such as you are saying now, they're always talking about money. You broke. Are you losing money? They threaten our people with

money. You won't eat how you can live. Well, this is why we are nowhere today. Because every time a black man gets in a position where all the babies are falling, and where all the youth is falling, then he's yours. I'm all looking when you're moving around. I see you. Yeah, he's who's looking. Everybody's looking when you're there. They like to see you coming in babies and everything. Oh, yeah. So I feel proud. I can tell him he's the greatest. I can tell him to be somebody. I can tell him to fear not. What are you losing? Look what I did. Now I can preach. This all helps what I'm standing for. And I'm just happy. Everything I'm doing. People see me and say, why are you not tired of looking at me? Oh, look and agree. You're so happy. Where are your bodyguards? You don't have no bodyguards? That's how I'm done. Well, it's great to have you with us, Muhammad Ali. Price fighting champion. Thank you. Minister to his people now. Muhammad Ali. Thank you. And I want Joe Frazier as soon as you get it going. Okay, Joe Frazier for the title. Thank you.