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I'm Cally Crossley This is Boston Public Radio. Former City Councilor Bruce foaling died yesterday. His life's work was to push the city forward. Enough is enough. We are going to determine the direction that this community should move it and part of his mission was to make sure everybody got a fair shake. We are ensuring that the future generations of Boston will in fact have a piece of the rock in a way they have never had before. From there we examine the mishandling of evidence from an estimated thirty four thousand drug cases at the Jamaica Plain crime lab. Did the mistakes lead many to be falsely accused or imprisoned. This is a tragedy. I wonder how many people here are a number of extra years in jail because of the work of this camp. Plus when a chef gets serious about sustainability the results are delicious. Boston Jeff Jose Duarte is here to talk about his green kitchen. That's today on Boston Public Radio. From NPR News in Washington I'm Lakshmi saying the Obama

administration vows justice will be done in hunting down those responsible for yesterday's deadly attack on the U.S. consulate in Benghazi Libya. Heart of the uprising that toppled the Gadhafi regime. President Obama delivered scathing reaction just over an hour ago to the violent protests that claimed the life of U.S. Ambassador John Christopher Stevens and three other Americans at the consulate. He was also critical of the anti-Islamic film in the U.S. that triggered the outrage. Since our founding. The United States has been a nation that respects all faiths. We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others. But there is absolutely no justification to this. Type of senseless violence. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton reacted earlier addressing reporters in a somber tone as she said the attacks should quote shock the conscience of people of all faiths around the world. The GOP presidential nominee Mitt Romney sharply criticize the Obama administration's handling of national security issues

following the attacks in Libya as well as in Egypt. NPR's Ari Shapiro says Romney's remarks raised eyebrows. Many people questioned Romney's decision to stick to that line even on this day of mourning for a U.S. ambassador killed in Libya. But Romney saw an opportunity to attack this president on foreign policy and he did so even as other Republican leaders Senator Mitch McConnell and Speaker John Boehner both gave messages of solidarity and unity on this day. That's NPR's Ari Shapiro with the Romney campaign. One of our reporters telling us a short time ago the Brotherhood in Egypt is calling for vigils against the film that triggered the outrage in Egypt and Libya but not calling for protests a president's spokesman saying he firmly opposes any quote irresponsible action that would break Egyptian law. In other news erupts plan to resolve its debt crisis has survived a major legal challenge in Germany. NPR's Philip Reeves says that country's constitutional court

says Germany can participate in a huge new bailout fund intended to rescue struggling Eurozone nations. European leaders have been nervously awaiting this verdict that could theoretically have destroyed their entire strategy for tackling the eurozone crisis. The thing we don't talk that much and we do this is they talk about openly. This is if you take you know. It could take you give. You an example American told parliament. The court rejected requests supported by 37000 Germans for an injunction stopping Germany from ratifying a treaty setting up the fund. But there are conditions. Germany's guarantor for about a third of the 500 billion euro fund. The court said the German government can't increase that contribution without first getting permission from parliament. Overall though Europe's strategy remains intact. This is NPR News. Good afternoon from the WGBH radio newsroom in Boston I'm Christina Quinn with the local stories we're following. State Attorney General Martha Coakley will be discussing measures her office is taking to

fight housing discrimination. Coakley will be joined by Boston Mayor Tom Menino and Suffolk University Law School Dean Camille Nelson this afternoon to celebrate the opening of the school's housing discrimination clinic through the clinic Suffolk University Law students will test for discrimination based on complaints to uncover patterns. The program is being funded by a $150000 federal grant under state law it is illegal for landlords and real estate agents to discriminate against tenants or potential buyers on race religion gender age income and other factors. Christopher Sheldon is the confirmed winner of the Republican primary in the state's reconfigured Ninth Congressional District. Five days after the election official results from the secretary of state's office Tuesday show the Plymouth businessman and Plymouth county charter commissioner beating Adams for promise of Barnstable by just 79 votes. The official results reversed unofficial figures the day after the election that showed us winning by 39 votes. Sheldon will face freshman Democratic congressman Bill William Keating in the general election. The Boston teachers union and the city have reached a tentative

contract agreement after more than two years of negotiations. The union president says the deal was reached at about 3:00 a.m. this morning following a marathon 11 hour negotiating session. The union and the school department had stalled over a new teacher evaluation system under the new system the city will rely more heavily on student achievement in evaluations. A spokeswoman for Mayor Menino called it a great day. In sports the Red Sox take on the New York Yankees again tonight hoping to repeat last night's win over them. And we start to beautiful weather continues this week today we can expect a high around 80 with sunny skies tonight mostly clear with lows in the upper 50s Thursday and Friday sunny highs in the lower 80s right now 69 degrees in Boston 77 in wester and 73 in Providence. Support for NPR comes from the size Sims foundation supporter of the syce and School of Business at the University at size Sims foundation dot org. Thank you from a transmitter atop Great Blue Hill. This is WGBH live. Local talk Boston Public Radio.

I'm Cally Crossley This is Boston Public Radio the first African-American president of the Boston City Council Bruce BOLLING died yesterday. During his years at City Hall he focused on fair housing and creating job opportunities for minorities. He was perhaps best known for his work toward revitalizing what is known in the late 1980s and early 90s as minority neighborhoods. Joining me now in the studio are three people who knew and worked with Bruce BOLLING Carmen fields covered Bruce bowling as a reporter in the late 80s and early 90s. Kevin Pietersen was an aide to bowling when he was a city councilor. And Richard Taylor is a former Massachusetts secretary of transportation and real estate developer who worked closely with bowling on neighborhood development projects. Richard was also his neighbor. Thanks to you all for joining me. Thank you for having. Thank you thank you Kelly. Let me start this way Carmen. Who was Bruce bowling in the context of Boston's political scene and civics.

Well he was a part of a very popular famous political dynasty is what comes to mind for me first of all the fact that his father Roy a bowling senior had a law. History and tradition on the political scene as a state representative and very much in the old populist mode of a Mayor Curley and then that his brother also became a legislator and the motto at the time when you would see them at political events or in parades was keep rolling with bowling. But the political dynasty comes to mind for me. First of all when thinking of them during those days. So Kevin Pietersen as a part of a political dynasty you know that's a good thing in that you're you're regarded as a part of that. But the bad thing perhaps is that you have to sort of make your

own way as part of it as an aide. You were with him as he was making his own way as Bruce Bowling not just as a piece of the dynasty certainly certainly was I get to see very close up. How how the sausage was made so to speak. He was a consummate politician but also a very skillful legislator so as some of these historic laws that were be during the 80s and 90s under his leadership it required. A great deal of skill to deal to interact with other city councillors who weren't particularly sharing his perspective of Boston racially and ethnically and help neighborhoods with the right. So I came in to his office an extraordinary moment and learned a whole lot. And he certainly did make his own way probably. I spoke to Charles Yancey yesterday who described him as probably as bully as probably being one of the the best city councils in the history of that body.

He was extraordinary what we have come to know Richard Taylor is that Bruce BOLLING was focused almost from the beginning of his his tenure certainly on the city council and then in justice work in general through Boston about making certain that there was inclusion for folks with regard to property political power in this state. I want to listen to a little bit of Bruce from 1988 he's talking about what he saw as a pattern of disinvestment in black communities in Boston. There's been a process of this investment for the past 30 or 40 years if not longer within the greater Roxbury Community. We're simply saying enough is enough. We are going to determine the direction that this community should move it. Talk about how he began to determine that direction Richard in a very practical way. That setup was beautiful for what I believe was the most important public policy legacy Council

voting left us and that was the housing trust fund. Bruce had traveled around the country and he noticed that in some cities there was a relationship between downtown development and neighborhood ellabella. And so Bruce authored which was passed by the city council you know on us that says if I develop a Bills in excess of 100000 square feet of property in downtown Boston. There will be a subsidy for every square foot beyond that of about eight dollars and it will go for workforce housing family housing and affordable housing in Boston's neighborhoods. Today that fund is worth eighty one million dollars and has produced over 6000 units. That today is ongoing. And we should be grateful to council bowling for that.

And Richelle if I might just highlight that you know his focus as we've said was just trying to uplift his community. But that policy that affordable housing policy is really inclusive of everyone who needs affordable housing in Boston. Bruce bowling was not a race politician. He was strategic. He understood the value of policy as it affected all neighborhoods. He grew up in Grove Hall what the cruises with with the red Kathy's family. They were a neighborhood people Mr. Bowling had a office on the corner of Blue Hill and Morton he had a real estate business tax business and insurance business. They understood how in neighborhoods all neighborhoods functioned. My guests are Richard Taylor you just heard him he's a director of the Center for Real Estate at Suffolk University. He was the Massachusetts secretary of transportation and a real estate developer who worked closely with Bruce Bolling on neighborhood development projects. Also Kevin Pietersen who is the founder of the New Democracy coalition but was an aide to bowling when he was a city

councilor and Carmen feels as with us a former journalist who is now associate director of national programs for the dental Quest foundation and we're discussing the life's work and legacy of former city councilor Bruce Bolling who died at 67 yesterday. Carmen feels he wasn't as important as the housing initiative that he legislated. He was on a one note kind of person. The legacy that I remember him most often and ardently speaking about was the Boston jobs for Boston people. And as Richard says he was inclusive that that Boston of course meant Roxbury but it meant Boston and it meant women and it meant minorities. And at the time I was a co-anchor for urban update which at the time was a. News a hard news format as opposed to a

magazine and very reliable issues and engaging Bruce bowling as a spokesperson was the Boston jobs for Boston people. And along with getting Roxbury Community College built which I think is ironic when you think of the days now. But he was always available to see it. Bruce we need we need someone to talk about this. Our Bruce lost another story and I've got a four minute segment to fill. He would talk about jobs. That was a particular passion of his. Kevin if you would pick up something that Richard mentioned which was his ability to be fluid in his political navigation. You know he was he was the master of what we now call triangulation. He could deal with a number of issues that arise from the issue of race managed to articulate them in a

certain way in the city council or the city council floor in meetings with his colleagues where at the end. As they agree with them it was about everybody. He was he was a moderate disposition as a as a politician understood race and dealt with it. One of the interesting things about Bruce just in terms of race was that he came in the aftermath of the school busing crisis and was a very eloquent spokesman about how we should begin to heal as a city and worked well with some of those counselors who were who were opposing busing who were still in the city council and learned to be very collegial and then get them on his side. He also Bruce was also in the middle of the Charles Stewart crisis and managed to be a monitoring moderating voice where some people wanted to burn the city down below God and Bruce got into the mix. I let me just explain that Charles Taylor for those who don't know you know history goes by you know.

That's right Charles Stuart a young white man married to pregnant. His wife was pregnant. Murdered Her accused. Black a black man. The ubiquitous black man of having done it turn the city of Boston upside down had curfews in place and every single black man stopped by police and questioned searched and accused of that crime he of course was later proved to be the murderer. And I recall Bruce being at some of those those very contentious press conferences that were held by some members of the black clergy and black leadership. He stood with them. But then he went back to his office and went to a group behind closed doors and work with him very very closely and added that voice of moderation saying that we you know Boston could be a better a better city. Originally we noted that in addition to your working with him on a business front you were his neighbor. You know the temperament that both Carmen and Kevin are describing that's had to be keenly important particularly in those 80s and 90s when Boston was at a

crossroads trying to decide how to move past the busing crisis in that image and really to bring together all parts can you speak about him as just having the. Because it seems to me that he came across as saying some of the same things that let's say a Chuck Turner say it but he was not it was not responded to in the same way. Well as was mentioned in Bruce Frost was very articulate. He was very strategic. He was calm even though we heard a pretty firm voice just a few minutes ago but I recall being on the block on Harold street. In Roxbury right across from a beautiful park one square block of a park when the Millers were neighbors the bae knows the old Fred Saunders family. Rollins Ross Sr. and family and Bruce was just a wonderful neighbor always collegial watching out for cars and street cleanings but I think the most important thing is timing and personality collided with him how else could one during those

days be president the Boston City Council didn't have the power for it to happen didn't have leverage. People felt comfortable with him and they felt he was fair. And I think those were things about Bruce he could make an argument but he could listen to an argument and those are characteristics that served him throughout the entirety of his life. And I want you to start and have the others weigh in. How big a deal was it that he became the first black president of the city council. It was very important and I'll tell you why use a look at today's context. First of all the demographics of the city. Were not in his favor. And I'll give you an analogy which I think is very appropriate. When Barack Obama when President Barack Obama at the time Harvard Law School student Barack Obama became chief editor of The Harvard Law Review. Those decisions were made not by people of color. They were made by largely white folks who were competing for power.

And if I might add in some cases they were defensive moves meaning they didn't want be to get it. They felt that Bruce would be fair and equitable A and B didn't want each other to get it so they made Barach the editor. And so that was the environment that he swam and now if you fast forward you have a governor of this state who is African-American. You have the president of United States. And now as we look out the next four to eight years you can see there's an opportunity for there to be a partial color to become mayor of the city. Bruce not the way. Kevin how big a deal was it that he became. Big deal for me. Yeah yeah big deal. You know as we mentioned earlier the city was sort of emerging from from racial a racial crisis in terms of busing but it was he came up into ascended into power in the era where other cities were electing moderate black mayors

Philadelphia you had Wilson Goode in New York you had David Dinkins Bruce sort of emerged around this or he was part of this Mashable trend where those that that type of politics the moderation at points but also being steeped in your community. It was a big deal for the the African-American community because they had never see they had elected someone citywide. Tom had guns but they had never seen anyone ascend to that position of power a heartbeat away from the mayor when the mayor left town and became acting mayor. So he was very very significant. As I recall him ascending to that post and winning a re-election to you know two consecutive years so he displayed a great deal of skill and made this community proud. And you were covering and looking at that from me from me a media perspective Carmen how was it recording. Well. Highly regarded as are all

firsts. That is the nature of news in itself unusual occurrences. That was made it very significant. And if you will the kind of the ushering in of what people hoped would be a post-racial society which is ever the goal hopefully to be attained. But also another context that came at a time when once upon a time when officials were installed or took their oath of office downtown or in the chambers where they were there was also a community installation. And I don't know if you remember Richard Elma Lewis school yeah a fine arts was a host of this and there you would have Bruce bowling taking again the oath of office surrounded by the community and the city councillors. The school committee members John O'Bryant the

state legislators and then there was a celebration of that achievement. But it was very much in the context of the community from which they emerged. Let's listen to Bruce speak because the other piece of his agenda always was about the stake holding I in terms of property and in terms of as we've said investment in the computer. And I thought that his particular pushing and support of a permanent location for Roxbury Community College really said it also here is here he is in 1905 talking about the groundbreaking at Roxbury Community College. We got a home for a school that's most needed. Now we have to ensure that the students who will be attending this school will have a home in Luxor. This is no longer going to be a dream deferred. We are not going to be moved in two years we're going to walk into a new building. And I want to

make sure that 20 years from now black people and brown people and white people and red people and yellow people who have always been the fan and the fan. Very well still the Enron story. Now there he was talking about a rainbow coalition. Just as the Rainbow Coalition was emerging in their early 60s he was also a visionary in terms of his support around domestic partnerships. Way before his colleagues so many of his colleagues on the city council sort of got that anyway before it's become. It's become a most common accepted now but I remember him working with his colleagues about how we need to treat people who are of the same sex and want to be in relationship with each other how we should treat them fairly. So very very progressive on some issues. He was one of the leaders in 1988 when Governor Dukakis was running for the presidency. Bruce balding Willie was the Massachusetts chair for Jesse Jackson which was actually he was really bucking the trend and was looking for

something more progressive. So there are certain aspects I mean this would make someone a complex man. There were so certain aspects where he was way out of front of the rest of his community and his colleagues on issues. But then they would then also have the skill to work with them in work in moderation and trying to lay the good stuff past last pass. That's my guest Kevin Pietersen He's a founder of the New Democracy coalition and he was an aide to Bruce BOLLING When he was a city councilor. I read you Taylor you see the same thing I do I think as much as we talk about. Jobs. And I want to come back to small women and minority business because that was very important if you look at the Boston Employment Commission today which is the regulatory group that manages the Residency policy for jobs and. You also in that tape see what he understood about education. Education has always been the key for those who are in the country and want to move

up in those who come to the country and want to move up. So Bruce was on point on that. But I think as I look at Bruce today. I see where his voice would need to be heard and is missing. I look at the casino. Opportunity I look at the expansion of the convention center and look at the communal rail contract. I look at City re destroyed and these are all of the kinds of things large scale projects where council bowling will be pushing for neighborhoods to get their fair share. He was also on the board of Cambridge College as well. It's very important him. Carmen It's haunting that bite that you use from Roxbury Community College. Once again the historical context that that community college and Bunker Hill Community College were legislated at the same time but Roxbury the

groundbreaking for Roxbury Mary wasn't realized to a good ten ten or more years later and groundbreaking and actually built and that. His advocacy though along with with others that thirst for education and the continued advocacy was very very important. So I guess Carmen feels she's a former journalist who's now associate director of national programs for the dented Quest foundation. Here's a quote from Steven Murphy who's the current city council president in speaking about Bruce BOLLING He said he had the gift of helping others he had the idea in his head in the mindset that we all don't start with a silver spoon in our mouth that everybody needs some help in his life. And that's what we're all about to help one another and he practiced it and he did it for his community for his neighborhood for his city. We talked about Bruce hoping running for mayor and losing to Tom Menino. But they managed a relationship

after that that went on he was able to deal with him work with him not very well but he at that point early on really hoped for down the line something that you that there might be an opportunity for if not an African-American but another person of color so let's listen to Bruce talking about the possibility of running for mayor this was 1987. Maybe at some point I can serve the city in a greater capacity if not me someone else. But I think it's going to happen. I think it's going to happen in not too distant future. Now Richard Taylor Richard Taylor director of the Center for Real Estate at Suffolk University he was a man's U.S. Secretary of Transportation and worked with Bruce Bolling on many real estate projects and other projects. When you hear that and think about legacy and think about Bruce bowling because you just talked about how yes you're missing his voice. Absolutely. Where are we now as 1987 as Bruce bowling hoping for a time that he has work in the work of others would

lead to a different kind of political direction. I believe that the foundation that he laid a. Better analogy would be the seeds that he saw of a getting to sprout. When you look at. Counseling on a Presley topping the ticket. When you look at the Latino citywide and local representatives there is a demographic change in this city who which I believe Bruce saw coming. And just like again my analogies go to the presidency when you look at Shirley Chisholm you look at Jesse Jackson you look at Al Sharpton all of those campaigns help significantly to elect the 44 president United States. And so all they're boosted by moving into neighborhoods that have not seen a bright articulate

calm African-American male come and speak at a black event or a neighborhood event. All of this stuff rolls up and so I think as we look to the future. There will be a picture right in front of us. There will have Bruce Spaulding's portrait as we think about the galvanizing of power for people of color in the city of Boston going forward. I would agree. And when you speak of those seeds that reminds me too of the campaign of Suffolk County district attorney Rousey Martin who was the first African-American to win a county wide with Boston as a base. But it was much that same proposition. OK I'm going to go to all of these communities in Suffolk County and tell them what I believe. I'm not going to just focus on the base if you will of one kind of vote. And I believe if they hear what I have to say they will accept me. And that was building very much on the proposition that

following set the example that he set. Haven't you. Yeah yeah I remember being in his you know aide in his office and talking about the emerging democracy talking about how the city is eventually going to change in such a way that so-called minorities and now a majority and that the city and even its leadership within the minority community need to be ready for that. So he was passionate about it. Not necessarily race wasn't a real man but passionate about fair play for people who have been disenfranchised or people who are poor people have been locked into the stations of life that weren't fair when compared to the others. So it was very passion about that. Talk about that to his aides and with others with real sincerity and you couldn't work with Bruce for more than a month or so then and not get the sense that he was a great person a complicated person

wasn't a direct teacher didn't say this is how you go you know take a left take a right was like that he lead by example. I remember when convening staff meetings and talking about. About what we were going to do about his vision. He didn't give us any of the nuts and bolts but the he said he would get from the get up from the table leave closes door we had to figure it out and he made a number a number of real leaders came from the 10 years I was there this book which is now a senior aide for former Mayor Menino Ron Marlow is the undersecretary of civil rights for for Deval Patrick Kara nobler is the state Ethics Committee. A number of people sort of came through that little chamber and City Hall said under his his leadership which is a direct kind of teaching and really flower demurs Jerry McDermott who who is a Boston city councilor Dale used to say your political director for Scott sort of Scott Brown wonderful

people sort of came out of his his tenure you know his tenure and his teaching he was very loving and caring and producing. So he was a wonderful wonderful teacher as a politician. And I would add to that list Kevin Pietersen who you knew him quite well. Now that he doesn't have a seat at the table Kevin on a personal note will you just close it out for us about how you will miss him. Well he's he's I want to personally know Bruce. I attended my marriage ceremony about four months ago. And a lot of people came today at the ceremony didn't know that he got sick in the middle of the ceremony had to be rushed to the hospital that evening my wife and I went to see him that next day and he continued to bless our relationship. But he was married to the city in some ways in a larger sense. And everybody's going to feel the loss of his presence his carry his vision his. His willingness to you know.

Stand up for for people who are on the marginal sides side of society so he'll be missed greatly. Thank you much to all of you for coming in today to talk about the life and legacy of 67 year old Bruce Bowen who died yesterday. You who knew him and worked with him. Thank you so much Carmen feels. Kevin Pietersen and Richard thank you THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU. What happens when a crime lab has a chemist who may have mishandled evidence for thousands of cases. It could be a legal nightmare for Massachusetts. I'll bring you that story. I'm Kalee Crossley This is Boston Public Radio. Looking for something that's fun educational and just a little daffy.

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Jamaica Plain The state was testing cataloguing and processing narcotics seized from drug busts. The state chemists were asked to identify substances picked up off alleged criminals and sometimes offered legal testimony in court. All that was well and good to get out that one lab worker hadn't followed the state's strict protocols for handling drugs. Now the state has a potential disaster on its hands with the legal status of thousands of cases hanging in the balance. And it's moving too quickly to untangle what happened who's affected and and how justice can be served but we're going to try to deconstruct that today. Joining me today are to talk about it are Milton Valencia reporter for The Boston Globe who's been covering the crime lab investigation and Peter Alec and a criminal defense attorney and a member of the Massachusetts Bar Associations criminal justice section. So Milton I want to start with you. When was the first evidence that something was awry.

Well that's a good question and depends on who you ask. For state officials who are making the judgments right now it was only recently the state police were set to take over the lab July 1st according to a state law that was recently passed so they were going through the motions and realized you know something was wrong here. And that prompted you know quite a response the governor was concerned. Shut down the lab immediately. Testing was postponed on the 13000 samples that were there and we have what amounts to a criminal investigation. What's at issue here is though is that someone had known about this or should know about it a lot earlier. And that brings us to the situation we're in a year is past you know cases of you know progressed through the courts and really we're at a situation where some of these cases may have to be scaled back and looked at again and that's that's the issue here it's going to be an enormous task. All right let's let's highlight a couple things you said. So the state was just as a matter of routine about to take over this lab and then they the state in taking over the labs. What's going on here.

Stay as in state police exactly yes state police are taking over. They have a higher accreditation level if anybody should be drug testing. They say it should be the state police and they have a state of the art lab and this is what they do so they said let's do it for the state as a whole and I think they were going in there in June and really looking at the records and saying what do we have here and someone raised a flag that said you know what we had this issue a year ago that you should know about in state police doing its due course. I worked with Attorney General Martha Coakley and realize there were some flags there that prompted this huge response. So we should understand what happens when evidence comes in so it comes into the lab. It's put in a vault. This drug this is evidence around drug cases is signed over to chemists in the chemists analyze them. They determine the type of drug it depending on the kind of case they weigh the evidence. That's what's supposed to be happening. It's not clear what part of that protocol the now one person who has been accused of perhaps screwing up all of these cases. We don't know what what she may or may not have done and

by the way the person's name is and do can sell how it was. How has it been determined that she was the only one who was messing up the protocol. Well this is what we do know. We do know that there is a strict protocol. We were talking about drugs illegal narcotics. We're talking about narcotics that are going to be evidence in a drug case in the judicial system so there's a strict protocol on on the quality control and response and looking at these in the handling of these because this is significant to the judicial system so there's a process within the police departments in which they are brought to the lab. There's a proper process in which this stored at the lab. There's a process in which a chemist whose responsibility is to test the substance to weigh the substance. There's a process in which that chemist takes the evidence out of out of the vault as you put it puts it in his or her own vault. Does that work and sends it back to the prosecutor saying this is what you have. There's always been that type process because this we're talking about the integrity of the judicial system. Somewhere that process was was there were some

shortcomings in it. That's what we do know. We do know there was one specific day. We do know there were concerns of a cover up after that was discovered. And what we do know now is that the state police is saying you know what we know about this one day and we fear it's far worse than originally thought and now we're talking about not one day of 90 samples of 60 cases we're talking about. Looking at nine years work of smaller than 60000 samples. So the one day is linked to and you can know this. This is what we know it is this and this one day is going to end Duke and because of that because of the alleged you know wrong doing everything is suspect right. And she worked there from 2003 until her resignation in March 2000 and 12 issues removed from duties and in June it's going to get back to. My guest is Milton Valencia he's a reporter for The Boston Globe who's been covering this crime lab investigation this is the investigation of the lab in Jamaica Plain charged with testing cataloguing processing narcotics seized from drug busts. Why this is a big

deal. There are 50000 drug samples at risk potentially an estimated 34000 cases which brings me over to Peter Alec in a criminal defense attorney a member of the Massachusetts Bar Associations criminal justice section because now you've got a situation where legitimately many people can say. If the evidence was not processed correctly how do we know those accused or charged are properly accused or charged. Kelly you have to trust me when I tell you that I don't usually speak it over dramatic over-the-top statements but this is absolutely cataclysmic. I mean we're talking about tens of thousands of cases. And so the question is kind of injustice on both sides. Ultimately you're going to have people who people could be sitting there people could be sitting there in the in jail in prison who are absolutely innocent. On the other hand this may result in some guilty people being released also down the line because if all this evidence is tainted you really can't convict people based on that and you have to look at all the old cases also.

You know one of the key things in any trial is you've got to show that say somebody is charged with a drug crime. You have to show that they that this was in fact drugs and this is the weight of the drugs. And if that's tainted and if this taints tens of thousands of cases how can any of these people be convicted and the people who are already convicted you'd almost have to give them a shot at another trial. However there's a little catch here too. Basically after you're convicted and after you've period is gone by would you have a right to appeal a case they usually destroy the drugs. So if you're released on this because of tainted evidence and they say we're going to try you again but we don't have drugs well then you're just home free also so it's really. I think it seems like listening to Governor Patrick statements and Attorney General Coakley every day really are taking it seriously they seem to really understand this for what it is. Well you're not alone in describing how big an error this was. Peter L. again I'm hearing words like here and colossal. I mean this is you know kind of massive to think about 34000 cases potentially 50000 drug samples.

I have to say I'm a little bit confused about how one person could be you know have touched 50000 drug samples. Do you can you make that clearer for me how could that. No I don't think that it's come out clearly yet either in from what we've learned so far you know over a nine year period there are times when they will go through numerous a day and so you kind of add that up over a nine year period. I think it's not quite clear to me they're talking about that they're looking at and they have to re-evaluate basically you know 50000 samples. And that's that's a Herculean effort just there alone. And I'm not sure if they're saying she's directly involved or just it could be in her lab and what she's doing in there looking into the whole thing now. All right we're sorting out the potential legal mess that could ensue after allegations of improper documentation at a recently closed state crime lab. I'm speaking with Peter elec and criminal defense attorney with the mass Bar Association you just heard him. And with Milton Valencia reporter for The Boston Globe. I'm Kalee Crossley. You're listening to

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at Harvard dot edu. And arts Emerson presenting Paris Commune a world premiere musical event a 19th century cabaret exploring the first European socialist revolution in Paris 1871 September 20th to 23rd arts Emerson dot org. The. I'm Cally Crossley This is Boston Public Radio we're talking about the recently closed state crime lab in Jamaica Plain a chemist at the lab was allegedly improperly documenting drugs that she was analyzing. The state is now facing down a potential legal mess as a result. We're joined by Milton Valencia Boston Globe reporter and Peter elec and a criminal defense attorney and member of the criminal justice section of the Massachusetts Bar Association. So we were talking about you know all the connections and what a big mess this is. I want us to listen to criminal defense attorney Ed Ryan who has a particular interest

in as many will in what has happened at the lab. This is a tragedy. I wonder how many people have served a number of extra years in jail because of the work of this chemist. I wonder how many people who were interested in particular charges have served time in jail or been found guilty of a crime. So Peter elec and already we know that one person is a defendant in a Bristol County drug case has appealed his conviction and they've based it on the fact that an do can this is a person that we know about now to get back to Milton on this in just a second. Testified in his case after she was removed from her duties. So that was going to be a no brainer she's testifying after she's moved from her duties. OK. He may have a have a window there. But I'm also curious about I want you to respond to that I'm also curious about well then anything that she touch whether she was on duty or off be at issue as well. Oh I think absolutely if they think that she and from what from what the early reports are saying that it wasn't just a matter of sloppy work that they think that there was really some intentional misconduct

here. I think it would taint almost all her testing I think I'd be remiss as a criminal defense attorney if I didn't try to essentially appeal any prior conviction they bring things called motion to vacate a sentence or a motion for a new trial. But I think we're going to do that and this is going to. First of all they have to do. The state's going to have to kind of check these out and do kind of look at every single solitary of these 50000 drug cases. The drug testing and then they're going to have to report it back to they're going to have to appoint you know court appointed lawyers for all these people. It's going to clog the court I mean we could have thousands of people clogging the courts and it really is is a huge huge you know mind boggling just volume. So who is liable other than we've identified one one person. But aren't there other people potentially liable in this whole mess. Probably possibly one of the big issues that was identified and there may be a real systematic problem here that if you could have and again we don't know the facts yet but if hypothetically there's one lone renegade state employee doing their own thing basically doing an end run around

judges prosecutors that are where they say I'm going to I'm going to tamper with this evidence. And people may I can put people in jail I can keep them in for jail for years longer et cetera. I think that it is just. I think that something needs to be done there where I can't believe there's no there needs to be a whole new protocol. There needs to be some kind of level of supervision a double check and you just can't have state employees who are making their own decisions on their own. And I think that's why Governor Patrick simply shut down that lab until we look at the whole mess what's going on there and they're going to have to establish some kind of oversight or accountability not just one person doing their own thing. That's my guest Peter Alec and I'm turning back to Milton Valencia who's been covering Boston Globe reporter covering this case from you know almost from the beginning. So I write with what you have said in all of the many pieces you've written is that nobody can articulate a motivation for her to. Tamper with cases or two don't do the protocol or whatever. So is

it a possibility that there was there was no malfeasance but this is the way she's always done the work and nobody just paid attention to it until now. I mean that's that's one of the thing that they're looking at I do know that the reason they wanted to do this in the state police the reason this transfer July 1st is the the accreditation date the standards of a state police investigation and state police agency doing this work and so they want to bring that to the highest level. For years you had in the Department of Public Health. We do know that that lab was overworked it was the biggest lab in the state bigger than the state police lab itself so it handled a huge caseload. We do know that there was a lot of work to do when we do know there was a backlog as well I think a year backlog has right now. So we do know there was a lot of work only 11 chemists and what was happening in there what the protocols were where there are shortcomings. We don't know but we do know that that's one thing. Shortcomings we do know that investigators are taking their concerns a step father to think maybe there was a cover up maybe something wrong was happening. And that's what's at issue here you have two

aspects of the investigation who knew well what happened when. What did the Department of Public Health do with this information once they realized what was happening. And now now that it's happened how do you resolve it in the court system and that's really going to be the Herculean task. Well let me quote you back to you. So you've written that Commissioner John back is you know not talking about it but the letters that you got. The Globe received said show that he knew about apparent improprieties but didn't say anything until months later and now he has a he's. You quoted him saying this. The serious lapses that occurred at the DP age drug lab are unacceptable and we're complaining a top to bottom review of his protocols and operations to assure the public that responsibility will be assigned in our work going forward. Meets the highest standards of professionalism. But that seems counter to his having known and not reporting that there were some improprieties someone in his office knew. Not only the labs someone in Department of Public Health headquarters knew and they didn't take

this seriously enough. And then once the state police knew and once prosecutors know and once defense attorneys know they realized the gravity of what was happening and that's why a year later this seems to be a lot worse than what it could have been and that's the concern here because someone recognized that this was happening and you know didn't address it properly. So let me circle back to and Duke and who's the name. Who is the person who's who's been named thus far. Work there again from 2003 until her resignation in 2012 and again we're talking about the now closed state lab and the mess up of an estimated 34000 cases 50000 drug samples that they only name. It's been put out there is and Duke and she's not speaking but her husband says she's been scapegoated or she is being scapegoated. Again I said to Peter I got to say you know kit is there anything that you know now that can explain how one person could touch 50000 drug samples.

Well we know through the years if you add them up there was a backlog and through the years working there there was also a system that two people would work on the case one point should have been an oversight issue one person does the testing another person signs off on what the testing should have been. Perhaps that's where the discrepancy was discovered in the first place. So one point someone noticed what was happening this is back in June 2011 the bigger issue why is why it wasn't reported to prosecutors and the higher ups at that time because it wasn't. Now everything is suspect so we do have to go back to 2003 and see was there more it could be that day could be a lot worse and that's why no one knows yet and that's what the fear is and so the defense attorneys are doing their job and saying if it was one day perhaps it was more days and we don't know when that's the issue that's at hand and for that reason we have to look at 60000 cases. So Peter elegant you know it comes up sometimes in high profile cases for those of us who are outside the system we hear defense attorney saying this evidence has been tampered. Not necessarily drug evidence but evidence of some sorts been tampered. I'm wondering is there any Has this

happened any place in the country where drug evidence on this scale has been tampered with. And if so what happened. I'm not sure if it's on this scale but I know that there's been. It has happened in three or four stay I know it happened in Detroit. Maybe Milne remembers some of the other places but I think New Jersey it's there has been tampering from time to time when they don't have any kind of good oversight. But I haven't heard anything quite of this scale this could very well be unprecedented. And what happens now. OK. So we've said what could potentially happen but we've also said that there's one guy who's already appealed his conviction but. Immediate steps that are likely to happen now legally. Peter Ellis. Well we're actually everybody is kind of sitting tight and waiting for this investigation that's going on. And I think it's being investigated by more than one agency certainly the attorney general Coakley is spearheading her group I think Department of Public Health which we're not quite they're actually investigating it too although I don't know if people have a lot of faith in them at this point. So we really have to get to the

bottom of exactly what's going on in the meantime. Already defense counsel are scrambling across the state sort of preparing their motions et cetera about asking for new trials to vacate prior convictions etc. Some of it does depend on what's coming out and again I it's so difficult to talk about because we're kind of all like kind of a little bit kind of feeling our way around in the dark here we don't know the specifics yet. But I think everybody is as I said after the investigation goes on that they're going to have to they're going to have to actually check every single drugs that were tested all over again whether it's tens of thousands and they're going to have to kind of notify defense counsel and prosecutors just a nightmarish scenario going on here just the sheer volume. Peter Elkind if you if you had a client and this is one of your cases was tied up in this what would you be doing it. Well absolutely I would be saying that I'd be kind of I would be interested in hearing exactly if anything specifically was done with my with my clients drugs. But.

Regardless I would just say look if this woman was in that lab and they are tainting drugs or tamper with drugs all over the place. I don't trust it at all. I think a jury should have known that. We don't have a lot of faith or confidence in this. And I think it should be you know be thrown out just based on that alone that if a jury ever heard about this they really you know one of the problems that we have is that we like too much I think on scientific evidence it kind of is the big trump card you know my client can say well the cops lie and they test the lie they exaggerate things and then we say but we say hey you know we'll come out we took it in the state lab This is what they found. Science doesn't lie. And now this kind of undermines that whole confidence maybe science does lie. Milton. So you know the state is crunched overall for funding for so many programs organizations. So now here we have a scenario which nobody knows yet because all the facts haven't come out as you've reported. But if there were some short cuts made because not enough people not enough you know money to

pay for the people to work over to I don't know because you said it was overburdened. How does that get fixed because I don't know that there's more money coming to the state budget right. We reported today that the governor has promised you know he'll seek supplemental funding if need be he did plead with the district attorney so let's work together and identify these cases as quick as we can. District attorneys are saying we can't do anything until we know the extent of the wrongdoing so it's a we're in a circle right now. That's only I think going to you know dig deeper in into this mess which worth noting is that there was a Supreme Court ruling a few years ago called the Melendez that required quality control for drug testing so you can't just have a certificate you need a quality testing you need the chemist to testify. And at that time Attorney General Martha Coakley and prosecutor said we you know this will be difficult and it will it will tie up resources sending you know chemist into the court and doing all this testing and showing all this testing will will clog up resources and really kind of strain our

budgets. Well imagine having to do that retroactively in 2003 and I think that's where the mess we're in. So what's the next step for you in terms of following this trying to get and going to talk or something else. You know I think the public wants to know kind of what happened. How do you fix it. What's it going to take to fix it and how we got into this mess in the first place and of course and so they're out there. All right as we say will you will be keeping an eye on it because this is something else. Thank you both so much. We're sore here we have been talking about the recently closed state crime lab in Jamaica Plain a chemist at that lab was allegedly improperly documenting drugs that she was analyzing and I've been talking with Peter Alekhine a criminal defense attorney and a member of the Massachusetts Bar Associations criminal justice section. And Milton Valencia reporter for The Boston Globe. Thanks to you both. Thank you.

What can your cell phone tell you about your fish. Chef Jose Duarte joins us for that answer. I'm Cally Crossley. You're listening to Boston Public Radio. First came 8am then automated supermarket checkout lines.

Automation and robotics keep getting more and more sophisticated walking across a room is something most human beings can do very easily and computers are just now starting to get decent apps. I'm Karen Miller. I hope you'll join us for a live innovation hub then at Suffolk University's modern PDA on Thursday September 27. Find out more at WGBH dot org slash innovation hub. This program is made possible thanks to you. And Hannaford and Dumas commercial printers offering offset and digital printing finishing and mailing from one source. You can find more information at half or Dumas dot com or by calling 866 quote HD. And the castle group PR social media and events partner to businesses that value local connections international reach and marketing intelligence connecting Cassell clients with their audiences for 16 years. The castle g r P. dot com. I'm Cally Crossley This is Boston Public Radio in the food world there is perhaps

no bigger buzz word these days than sustainability. And one of its biggest advocates and practitioners and chef Jose Duarte He's the chef and owner of Toronto in the north in chef Jose Dwight. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me here. How do you practice what you preach. Well that's been a long process you know it's a very complex topic and it doesn't take a day. But it's part of a research joint research where employees and all towards a change so we started about six seven years when we saw a need to it was it was a decision of an economic decision to I should try to save some money by saving energy. And I found that it was very easy to make those changes and at the same time will help the environment. So we concentrate it on in the restaurant the restaurant industry consumes a lot of energy. We start with energy water conservation gas conservation etc. so

using different technology to help that looking at footprints looking at different ways so. You know lower and or print and helping the varmint and saving money so I'm in the whole process. We were really concentrated on trying to make those changes but not really seeing how sustainability does not really relate to only an energy or recycling or composting or just a few of the things that many people think is that way so we found that it was more than that. We had an economic side that had a social side and also obviously the environmental side so we gradually found in this changes we we can make a difference. A restaurant produces minimizer garbage production to 0.01 percent.

We recycle we compost everything we buy renewable energy. We're able to lease is 100 percent sustainable agriculture organic biodynamic. We tried to buy local when possible. We I mean we had up to about 40 environmental changes in our business practice in order to help the environment and obviously save some money have some economic impact because sustainability also means to stay in business. You know I mean you don't have to get sustainable business at the end. Last year we concentrated on sustainable seafood. We are with the New England Aquarium and a few other entities. We were very complicated as well trying to determine what's sustainable in the seafood world and what's not. So we made own decisions and choices whether specie or type of seafood is sustainable or not so one of the things that we did and it was

kind of very innovative is we were able to The sign a QR code that is easily that that little square thing that looks kind of sweetly. It's a black and white color. We work with a French designer and he helped shape those little squares into a nice looking so what I did is I use a silk screen the ones I use for a shirt and I took some squid ink and I was able to screen that code into a plate and through an initiative that was sponsored by the Environmental Defense one called Trace and Trost that is a tool given to fishermen and local fisherman to connect with. Consumers somehow so what I did is I was able to create this other beginning was a fantasy I said that well this is how great will this be to have a consumer in your restaurant pull up their mobile phone and scan this edible code and he's able to see where the fish was caught when and by who and when was delivered to the restaurant. So we were able to do that last year

and it was a great satisfaction to actually see how you have different you know different areas on this. I mean sustainable always says is that we are we're buying at Super Fresh fish you know number one number two. We are. They weren't really fair value of the fish we buy and that would be from the fishermen were not. We're basically eliminating the middleman so we were given them more value for their product for their work which is really hard out there for them. That's another thing and the other is that we're disability I mean we are giving you the opportunity to really know where your food is coming from. So we start doing that we did it with fish. It really took off. With us we're actually right now working with a a y and grass fed meat producer so we're experimenting with a brand in Arran on a piece of steak so you'll be able to scan that stand up and it will tell you the code. Well I will tell you exactly you know all the trust ability of that that that the

cow the cattle you know so we we did a lot of that. This year we're working on becoming a little bit more socially responsible. Food just I mean we're helping the Immokalee coalition over with cultural workers in Florida. I was not aware of many things that I'm aware now about a year ago. Listen to hit out about me is who is a former agriculture worker and now he's an activist that helps the rest of make ground forces that actually are harvesting tomatoes in Florida and listening to him I discovered that there is also a human factor in food that we don't see. I mean now I'm seeing it but I know many people doesn't see it. You can have a tomato or a head of lettuce that comes from a really good land really in a tree shoes. Very very pure. No chemicals no added to this is harvested on the best microclimates and is brought to you on the lowest carbon

footprint. But if that product has been harvested on their modern slavery and the right conditions that product is not sustainable. So that's something that we're not looking and it's happening here in the United States. You know it happens in Florida so. And what we want to do is we want to create awareness we want to let people know that hey sustainability is not only recycling you know when you have businesses it's a very complex terminology you know to put it together but it has those you know social economical factors for fairness you know especially food for justice so we are very excited to say that at the end of the MOND will be present in an international conference in New York with Barry Estabrook who wrote tomato land and had a lot of ideas and trying to. You know how I'm coming in as a the connector. You know I'm not really an expert on the subject but I want people to know about it so we can be trusted chefs you know we can put in your plate

so at least we can have that side so we've been working on that recently and it's very exciting so I am speaking with the chef and owner of Toronto in the north in chef Jose Duarte. And you can hear anyone listening to you that you are an evangelist about the subject of the same ability you have walked us through. Not only is the social responsibility aspect of sustainability but what happens in your kitchen. What happens outside with the customers who are ordering the food what your philosophy is about it and why it's so important to you so you are practicing what you preach. What I want to know is there is a journey to travel to get to be an evangelist that one time you were in the pew just listening. So let's talk about your journey as a chef and along the way how you began to pick up that which has become so much a part of your mission and your focus now and I should tell people who don't are not familiar with Toronto that it is a what some people might

call it fusion it's a Talya and my movie in a marriage and you know you know and Peruvian Foods which is quite delicious but so give us a sense of where it all started for you. Well I was this is I have a memory I always liked food. I always since I was four years old I think I was sure and people into my house to see it and always had the spirit of hospitality. And I think I had a few of the phonies there in my my life growing up in and becoming a chef and one of them was when I was perhaps six seven years old and I lived in Venice when I moved from Peru to Venezuela and we will go to Peru once a year to keep in touch with her family. You know my grandparents my uncles and every time we go there. There in the time they will cook just for the day they will go to the market and precursor when they need it for lunch and usually you'll eat the same thing at night. So going to a market in Peru was kind of an event for me was kind of something that I would really look forward to next they might not wake up to go someplace but

if they were going to the market at 5 AM I was the first one to be awake and I found that that was very inspiring and this smells here almost of a lot of the you know the celery roots and things like that. Kind of starting to wake you know to a wake a little bit of that you know being a chef type of thing that we have in sight so and trying different things products that even Peruvians will not like him was given by the vendor as you know some trade Try This is delicious and it's not delicious but I think it's delicious are going to sell more. So we did that was one of another one was seeing a chef transform a whole fish into a save each in about five minutes. I mean I was probably about 12 years old and I was thinking to this restaurant Have you had one. And he just. Think this fish and we're like a city church so reach in so he takes the fish sticks and I have one and then here is the delicious piece of fish turn into a

Mason City just so I'm like wow I want to be. I want to do something like that so those are moments that I that happen in my life and I have many of them all in us a chef you know in terms of sustainability and how these changes. I think you know this apparently is fairly new the kind Yes you know what you were seeing early on in your in your you know it was in your career Yes you know I was not and it would that's one of the things that I see is that we're responsible. And why are we responsible is because what I see now I didn't see before and my children are not seeing it now but when my oldest daughter is eight years old and I think with my daughter being born and my my son being born he's six now. I travelled to Venezuela and I wanted to sort of show my children how beautiful the beach was. When I was

perhaps 12 years old I used to do snorkeling in this area as it was just a whole fantasy for me. It was fantastic and when they were born and then I went back and I tried to sneak in and I took the coral reef was destroyed. So I said My children are not going to see what I saw. So that was kind of a change an element in fact for me to say well we can do. We can make a change for the future generations somehow. You know so they they were a big influential part and what made me change and become more responsible in that the other part was a business economic sense. I was a mere economic decision to start running my vehicles with grease from the kitchen fryer. Instead of having somebody what do you see somebody do that I mean how did you know when we I actually did some research in prison it was a local magazine that feature some people that had that and then I became interested I can tell you everything about that you know we convert about seven cars some of them didn't work because it was too

modern of a car but we experiment a lot and we try to make these changes you know and work. So it was an economic but along the way I found that they make sense and one of the things is that I feel really good about doing this. I was at a restaurant a couple days ago and the restaurant owner which is a friend as well as you know he goes Well you doing great about these things and I see all these Styrofoam containers I said well why dont you set recycle Why don't you stop using styrofoam he goes You're not going to change the world. He tells me so I look at him and I say but he feels like I am. I don't care what you say you know it's my own satisfaction and the same thing happens to with my employees you know you do good you feel good I mean I am probably the only restaurant in the area where I am in the north and has employees that understand that our business is done differently and other business you know by compost and recycling the way we

operate or way of and they feel good about it. I mean it's kind of a motivational aspect so it has been a journey into things and discovery and experimentation on the scullery journey to the point that you look at some scientific evidence on changes and things like that and maybe in 10 years that they will be flipped somehow because there might be other factors that will change their studio temperature in an area that are harvesting the type of grapes or other areas etc. so it's a change in as a change in the world so it has I will say that has a bold and he has a house a few years for people to completely understand what I was talking. If I was talking like these six seven years ago people would not get it really well but now there's a better sense. For the soul. Well curious since you said you were going out to eat but I'll be at a friend's restaurant when you just pick a place to go. Does sustainability mean something to you do you look to see.

I supply. I make some choices in regards to what I what I eat. So most of the because you're going to make those choices I mean if you go to a restaurant and they're serving Chilean sea bass or Chinese species of fish that you know that you shouldn't be eating I just don't order it in many many cases I ask and I question where is this coming from because I rather buy something that is you know local or comes from an area that I really understand. But you can make your own decisions I you know I asked my questions you know we ate most of the meat. My children I only give them all not no hormones and antibiotics a grass fed beef. We eat a good amount of lamb lamb is a small animal in the US and you know it's only 12 months and doesn't need a lot of. Hormones or anything so we basically make decisions whether orders something or not. When we void in the restaurant. And we believe for example a restaurant we we don't want to emphasize that we are so green we're green certified a restaurant. We were received

many accolades eccentrics said we're trying to sort of fight Iowa so 14000 and won which is unheard for a restaurant which is more than four industry. But if you understand how our practice goes you probably have more loyalty toward us you know. And I do the same thing with other chefs of the restaurant that really care and record some products and I really I have a different method of appreciation for that food. I'm speaking with Chef Jose Duarte He's the chef owner of Toronto in the north end which is a marriage provides a marriage of Italian and Peruvian food. You know you can be as intense as you are about sustainability and maybe a lot of people wouldn't go along with it except that you're getting all kinds of accolades for the food in Toronto. I mean by the right by the way that people in there did you get your philosophy. So the food the marriage of the Italian a Peruvian and a we don't have that around anywhere it's very different. Give us a little bit of history of how that

came to be. It's very simple. I was born in Peru. I lived in Venice while I opened the restaurant in 2000 in the north and it was a strictly saw then Italian restaurant and I am married to an Italian from the north and so I had no choice to go there. So it was better done then this marriage is going to go you know. So there it is the beginning was a very I was skeptic to introduce these proven ingredients because we tell you through the restaurant was not doing good at all because we tried to do this which was trying to rescue these recipes from south literally there were very 16th century recipes and we would do in chocolate eggplant with a few other things candied orange etc.. So it was very difficult for us so until I found these Peruvian ingredients into us in a supermarket I start incorporating the menu just hide and not telling anyone that I was doing that and people will say oh what is this special sauce special sauce you know I wouldn't say too much and then I got a reporter from a local newspaper saying we need to do a story about you doing that I know you can do

that you know you know a lot think it in the north thing or how Im going to do this you know you got to be careful. And next thing you know is a big story chop it with a picture of. Got many cards on me which are you know interest no more than that but I had to create this name so we started it was kind of that motivational factor to create to utilize these very unique ingredients that my Peru can give me. You know we have 3500 varieties of potatoes 800 varieties of corn. It's a very diverse country. It's very hard for me to say that my restaurant is sourcing all local ingredients because it's not true. I mean I am what I am I need I want to use. I have to bring it from Peru but I find a way to bring it on the lowest footprint of from the best source as well. So it became this marriage of any talian and we had dishes like or you know with a bracelet that started me missing that flavor or having it as an employee milk with the sauce and

saying can this be a great Yorkie. So. Started to create. We serve in a very nice fish called the Amazon is they are applying a very interesting and by chance by the largest scaled freshwater fish in the world you can grow up to 16 feet about 300 pounds and send in dangerous species. But with this initiative we're trying to recoup and control the commercial fishing up the wild because this is born in captivity and is such a big fish that they buy a moderate your Bush feeding is very low so in 18 months you can get a really good fish and that's about 30 pounds 25 pounds in size. No PCBs no mercury high college and so it's a really good product and it's delicious. You know naturally featured in neighborhood kitchens. Right yeah right. So and doing this this unique products but always if it's not doing it with the proven ingredient or. The proven technique we always have that Italian technique attached to it or we do

the carrot syrup and being called which is the reduction of the great moss that is carob syrup is I got to tell you now from Peru is 100 percent northern Peruvian zero syrup and then the southern Italian so we mix those two and that's the Peruvian Italian so we have all of the dishes out a little bit of that it's kind of what we got. I've not been to your restaurant yet I'm going to make a plan to do that but I had a sample of some of your food at Latin food festival last year and let me just say I was you know me and several of thousands of people not going over each other trying to get there. Yeah pretty good yeah. We know it was a suite we did at the end. That's that's a perfect example so it's not all traditional to me so would look which is a Peruvian fruit said Dan Sion last crop of the guys you know so this food is very delicious has that flavor of butterscotch kind of a not make flavor so we made that and we actually come up with names we have the local me there while I'm

normally because when Cheney is you know on we're working on a few others so I can just tell you that I stood by that station a little too long I was here right. It was quite good but I wanted to note that while we know that the North End is recognized for really great Italian food and you know all over the country not just here in the city. Peruvian food is hot. Now it's come I mean you're you're on the cutting edge of the food. The Peruvians are coming. Yes how do you feel about that. I guess what I mean I think it's great I mean we were mixing it up and we were trying to get on the works I had on that but if you look at a lot of the trends of gastronomy I mean Peru has so much they versity in the food and in the last 10 years has been this explosion of really good goalie Nori skills in Peru or traveling around the world they basically exporting great food and their sporting talents as well there's a lot of schools and we think this to one of I think just on a quarter who is a

famous chef in Peru I think he was the beginner of this movement and now there is. Lot of really good Peruvian chefs out there they're opening restaurants all over the world we just had a friend up and won and in London there is they're open and in good places and Peru has become a gastro nomic destination Europe a lot of European countries of Spain and Italy and friends are make in Peru not only the archaeology and the history but the food the food is playing a very important role in this millennium So as you hear all French cuisine I don't think I've seen the Peruvians are coming now as I understand it you're it for Massachusetts and in this area in terms of Peruvian food I know that some people in New York. But is that correct. Yeah there is. There is good Peruvian restaurants in Boston and we have much repeat you. We haven't gone to the menu. We have what we will find a few of the Peruvian dishes in there but we are more on these marry each type of thing. We have an excellence of each in the summer. We

make it traditionally spruce So we do feature a lot of Peruvian dishes in there as they are in New York has abundant in Paterson New Jersey is a big proving really and then there is a lot of restaurants in there. But you will see a big. Proliferation of Peruvian restaurants in the next five years I think it's a pisco sours are becoming very popular beaches in the different chosen and unique and all this and what the council says. Actually we feature in the show as well but it's a Peruvian dish made with a very unique potato a yellow Peruvian potato out of those 30000 varieties in Spanish and English actually means costs and he was a dish that initially happened in the war against Chile in which these beyond there were ladies that will go on the street trying to collect food that will knock on the door and say if you can they can have

some food for the cost of the Peruvian soldiers. So they were gathering food and build is the kind of like a coal shepherd's pie that is made with this rice potatoes cold and usually we stuff it in Peru with avocado some mayo. We do it at Toronto with some crab meat we've done it. And so a very unique and it sort of cold a little spicy So it's kind of one of the flag dishes of Peruvian gastronomy not only because it is the leashes but I think because it has a good story I think every country everybody should have a story behind and that will make these have more identity some household. Again my guest is chef Jose Duarte he's a chef owner of Toronto in the north end and we're talking about delicious Peruvian food which is part of the marriage of food and his restaurant he marries a talian and Peruvian food together. So you talked about the excitement of your chef. You have your staff rather and

yourself about sustainability and and where you are in that movement. And this wonderful. Q Our code scanner which allows people to come into the restaurant scan it and figure and see instantly where their fish came from and who fished it as a matter of fact. I'm curious to know what their response has been. Well at the beginning for me this was kind of a fantasy because I said How want HOW COOL WOULD THAT BE And actually it happened so. And I was I have this is skepticism I'm not really prone to people scanning and using their mobile devices on their phone I think we're getting a little bit. We have the urge of information more and more and we start panicking if we don't check our emails or phones every five seconds. So I was a little you know against that. You know but. What we do in the restaurant is we have a stamp we make it an ink stamp and we if somebody really wants to know the answer or

wonders what that is we tell them this fish belongs to a fisherman and from this place and I say Oh really when was it. See so if the person shows an interest we can give this really strong answer. We bring decor with them but we have them scan it and they can trace that fish to the sea so we we want to be educational as we want but we also don't want to detract from the dining experience. So sometimes you want to go there and just enjoy dinner and relax and have a little Zen moment. But I farm to table is huge and man it is I didn't think that about it but the thing is that we also want to educate. We have this this is the sire to tell you a little bit of what we serve but we want you to express that interest so if you ask questions we will give you the answer so people when they ask the questions and we see that we know is that there is more interest interest ability I mean we see technology and my question now will be who validates that you know how do we validate that that fish was traced right. Food safety

is very important I don't think the United States has a mandatory system of traceability of scene you know how many birds this meat coming from etc. So I think that. With technology we will be able to really trace the origins of our food somehow and eventually I think the chef level to really test food to see if there is any pollutants PCBs and mercury in the fish because that's something that we cannot see but I think technology will be available for us to actually reject a specie that comes in because it's a high level has high levels of mercury which opens up a whole complete new set on sustainability and comes into the health part of the human being you know of it in a fish that my you can really determine if there is PCBs you know it's you the only way to do that is by testing it. And unfortunately right now

it's very difficult and expensive. But I think US technology advance there will be ways for us to start controlling that as well. Well there's a couple of ways where you can take your evangelism about sustainability outside of your restaurant in the north and one is that I understand you're planning to teach a course on sustainable I actually am already teaching at a local college faculty and I started last night. I mean it's all day. OK. That's actually last night we started writing software I mean where do you recall it. OK you know ask you I want you to ask me I think OK. OK in the recall election I have turned to students most of them quite interested in Sen.. Last night it was a great great time to spend half an hour defining what sustainability was and they got it you know because all the answers I got from them was recycling to sustain. It was everything was energy and energy related pollution

related. But there was nothing really on the economic and on the human part on the social part of it and kind of all been daubed their minds a little bit to see how important it is. So we were and the other thing is that there is nothing written about it references an ability I was trying to find something kind of that will work for me because I have to sort of develop a syllabus but I have to write a book. Yeah well eventually get it. So and you know the next class we will be talking about energy itself you know we learn about a footprint about types of energy bio ma solar power. We are actually working with MIT on the development of a carbon footprint calculator. For a project which is going to be available for chefs eventually It's a project to do an in-house and have some guest speakers along the way over the course like Chef Rich Garcia from Congress 6 0 6 who's going to be here and there in the artisan taste and seafood fest

seminars and Elizabeth FITZSIMMONS from there going to help us you know give them more and understand because they want to learn they want to know a lot of these and we use a lot of different technologies in the restaurant are web based technologies that we can access and see exactly how many kilowatt hours is our refrigeration unit consume and on the carbon footprint of it and also how much is costing us and help us make decisions for that as well so. And just to be clear for any for anyone who is confused about your conversation chef Jose Duarte you do cook and you cook really well and I want you to in the next way that you're going to sort of expand your mission about sustainability but in a very delicious way is here at the WGBH artisan taste and Food and Wine Festival this weekend. And tell us what you're going to prepare. Well we're doing the.

The gala night which is going to be there is a night and I am making a U CAN YOU okie dokie with the bracelet style. We're using some Iowa limb and we are making a Peruvian inspired green rug obeys with each other which is a fermented corn cider from Peru Parmesan that's going to be nice and we've met here and it would be nice smile back. So that's going to be that night and then we have the artist on the auction table that it's going to be on Saturday I believe and then there will do in the summer but we're doing us which we're going to shape like a sushi and we're going to put a little lobster in the top is going to be a nice neighborhoods. So while I still haven't decided exactly I want to go to the market on Friday or Saturday morning get some fresh stuff maybe some small blue fish and different type of things so and that's the beauty about working fresh you know that you can't predict much a menu and that's one of the things sometimes I say that well you have to

reach there is what fish will you have us as the No. I got to go to the market I got to go I want to know. But already I got to go see what satellites out there you know so but it will have those calluses there for the cause you know. So that's going to do well. Chef Jose Duarte nobody can say you're not a holistic sustainable. Yeah. You've got to go on from the composting to the tracing of the fish to the thinking about who are the people that are working in the fields to prepare the food to the mission of telling your consumers and allowing them to be a part of the experience if they wish to to know where their food came from. And all of that delicious marriage of Italian and Peruvian and now educated which is the best part of their you know great cycle and I can always be educated if there is a little bit I mean you know. Yeah. Thank you so much pressure. I think it shows they do our day is just one of the saps who will be up participating in the taste of WGBH Food and Wine Festival which kicks off tomorrow and goes through the weekend

right here at the WGBH studios. More information about that is available on our website WGBH news dot org. Thank you again. Up next what the school year underway again Lawrence Massachusetts a charting a new course under the strict supervision of the state. We're looking at this moment of major change for Lawrence and what it would take to get the schools back on track. You're listening to Boston Public Radio. I'm Kalee Crossley. Reporters of color were shut out of this year's presidential debate so the Spanish language TV network

Univision will host two forms of its own. President Obama and Mitt Romney are both in and moderator Jorge Ramos thinks he knows why. That's the new rule in American politics. No one can make it to the White House without a funny vote. More on this next time on TELL ME MORE. This afternoon at 2 here on eighty nine point seven WGBH. This program is on WGBH thanks to you. And the Irish family musical ensemble Clannad returning to the U.S. after 18 years appearing at the Berklee Performance Center October 10th 6 1 7 7 4 7 2 2 6 1 or Berkeley BPC dot com. And Broadway or bust 60 of America's top high school musical theater performers head to New York City hoping to win the ultimate national musical theatre award. Don't Miss Broadway or bust Sunday at 8:00 on WGBH too. I'm Cally Crossley This is Boston Public Radio the city of Lawrence can't catch a

break. Mayor William Latika is still deflecting allegations of corruption while the city strains under a high crime rates and flagging morale. What's worse Lawrence schools have been suffering. Last February the state officially placed a district in receivership citing low end CAS Corps and staggering dropout rates. While it sounds bad there may be a kernel of hope. Our guest today says this might be the pivotal moment a sort of post-Katrina reset moment where Lawrence can get back on track. Joining me to talk about this is Jamie gass director of the Center for school reform at the Pioneer Institute. Welcome. Thanks so much. So what do you mean about a Katrina moment for large schools. You know I mean there's no question that's a kind of provocative statement but Pioneer Institute has been working on school choice issues in Massachusetts and across the country for you know approximately 20 years and we're really proud of the really stellar achievement of the charter schools of Massachusetts have has but you know the reality of it is

that in cities like Lawrence where these deep pockets of chronic under-performance we think it's a moral imperative to rescue children from underperforming schools. And so that's why you've characterized it as a as a Katrina moment you know the reality of it is you shouldn't need to have a natural disaster to call people's attention to places where you know 30 percent of the students are dropping out and 50 60 percent of the kids are in the lowest categories and I'm cast Well you know when you talk about. Improving the school system. Some would say well we got a state receiver now that's his job. This is Jeffrey Riley. I mean he's had you know he's got a big job so he's going to do it incrementally. That seems reasonable. Don't you think that's reasonable. There's no question the appointment of a state receiver on the school side is a good first step I know from my experience back in the 90s of working with Boston University and the receivership that the. The state appointed in Chelsea is that it's going to take a lot of reform on the municipal side and there's lessons

from both Chelsea and the work of the control board out in Springfield. They tell us that the receiver is going to have a lot of problems with the municipal government and I think we're already beginning to see that. But the headline today about the the mayor and some of the folks that are close to the mayor under indictment. Before we go there let's let's hear from you about the lessons from a HLC receivership. Where be you. Boston University Yeah yeah. You know it really was a that was a dynamic moment it was in the late 19th 80s where Governor Dukakis worked in conjunction with the legislature and the officials from Boston University to have a first of its kind in the country experiment really were Boston University a private university was running a public school system. And so bust university was in there for about five years that was during a period time that I worked for several The superintendents on the ground with with officials and. And there you know the city was in a fiscal crisis and on top of that the five or six previous mayors

and the building department and the police department were all under investigation from the FBI. And so you know one of the bold dimensions of Chelsea was that they thought Big both on the municipal side and the school side. But but there were witnesses to and the fact is that it was an incredibly top down reform approach. You know I think you know recently there's a movie called Waiting for Superman in some respects 25 years later we're still waiting for superman and you know some of the reforms that they're talking about in Lawrence are good first steps but the fact is is that one receiver or one person is not going to change the futures of 13000 students. Let me let me help you. Help me understand what you mean in this instance. Top down does that mean the BE YOU folks who are saying this is how we do it. And somehow the teachers were left to figure out or what do you mean by university was given full managerial authority really replacing the school committee they hired and fired the superintendent and had a great deal of flexibility to

negotiate a teacher's contract. And you know be you is a place that had a reputation of being pretty top down the receiver Jim Carlin and Harry Spence really handled the municipal side but it was really more commanding control it was not allowing the schools themselves to have the kind of autonomy from a central office that really give teachers and principals the flexibility to innovate and to train and make changes as they see fit and our view both from the B U lesson and from other lessons like charter schools is that places where the principal and the teachers have more flexibility the people that are doing the work have more flexibility. You see you tend to see higher results among student achievement. But to say and my guest is Jamie gas and he is the director of the Center for school reform at the Pioneer Institute. Call me naive but if you're running a charter school that is one school that is a whole other thing of trying to turn a system right and allowing for the kind of autonomy you're

talking about that is efficient at every level. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen but it seems to me that's just apples and oranges. Well you know the thing is that there are other cities like New Orleans and Washington D.C. that are that are in similar circumstances where they have really you know chronically low student achievement and they're opening the field wide open so they're in Washington D.C. Forty two percent of the School of the school children are in charter schools. It's you know a significant number 30 40 percent in in New Orleans too so going forward big cities that have these chronic problems they are they're using a variety of different reform mechanisms that are best suited for the situation on the ground. And that's a lot of what we've advocated for too so it isn't just charter schools. We could expand that coastal options of school choice there could be virtual schools for some high performing students and dropouts. There are diocese schools.

And there are vocational technical schools so we think that that having a variety of different reform options that parents and and and students get to choose is a better way to harness the energy from the community. And in fact you really emphasize that a mix probably works well in most any community you go in. Right. No that's right. That's right. I mean again that's there's no I mean again one of the lessons from be you and be you made enormous progress and it was it was a bold effort. But one of the you know one of the real lessons here is that it can all come from the top down. All right so if you're if you believe that it's a nice mix whatever that should be you know individualized to the particular community is the best way to go. Why can't a receiver say let's have a nice mix. I mean in that way top down would seem to work because the receiver and at this point has the last word right. I mean the school system as it was moving around before is as has been said that didn't work so now you've got this court appointed got it

who has the ability to say you must do this in order to be in compliance. So I don't understand why it has to be one thing why can't it be the kind of mix you're talking about. You know he is his plan which was a port approved by the Board of Education in July and I think it's important to remember that the receiver isn't entirely Czar without. You know that isn't inhibited by restraints so he works for the commissioner of education and the commissioner of education works for the Board of it and they did approve his plan. The his plan does call for some charter schools to operate a handful of schools. There's about you know 50 teachers or so that will be trained by charter school operators. So he has begun to embrace I think a kind of hybrid reform. But if you total up all of those reforms which are which are worthy and I think a step in the right direction they really only impact about 15 hundred students and there are 13000 students in Lawrence and so while he's moving in the right direction we have you know lessons

from places like New Orleans and D.C. which are just much bolder. Will you also point it to now I thought this was very interesting that he's fired some teachers but 16 out of 900 These are from poor performances and 18 resigned or retired. I mean to your point that's not a lot of impact in a huge system. That's right I mean the you know there's about 900 student I mean 900 teachers in Lawrence. And as the globe editorialize just recently you know you know basically 16 teachers were fired another you know 18 resigned and already the national president of the American Federation for Teachers has written a letter to the commissioner of education and the Board of Education you know accusing them of a wholesale assault on our collective bargaining rights and so this is only beginning the process and you see that it's drawing national pushback from teachers unions and these these folks you know are enormously powerful they contribute to you know politicians campaigns and the phone call from Washington D.C.

to the governor's office or the legislature or to the to the to the you know the receiver's office is a short one. And I think we're already seeing that begin to play out. Well I mean what is what has been made clear is that the Lowrance teachers union. Not very happy at all about you know some of this and maybe there just isn't an unhappy with the slow kind of drip drip approach to the reform as well because it doesn't leave them. That leaves them actually in the middle because what do you suppose to be working on the whole system while the new system is coming in. Where my going to be is there a hybrid no hybrid. Am I employed or not. It has a lot going on there. No that's right there I mean it really is like trying to make changes in major changes in navigation and everything mid-flight and in some respects retooling the airplane while you're flying and it's an enormously difficult circumstance and I you know I have an enormous amount of you know respect and sympathy for a teacher as my you know mother print spent 35 years preparing teachers I've been working in

around education for for 20 years and I think it really is the most important paid work in our society. But the fact is that there is severe mismanagement both on the city side and the school side. And this is one of those opportunities to really put the interest of the students ahead of the interests of the adults. And you know again we have we have models here and in the last 20 years or so under education for Massachusetts we've gone from you know slightly above middle of the pack to number one in the country and internationally competitive in math and science. And there are people like Tom Birmingham who. Was the architect of the reform in the early 90s who was a labor lawyer and had a very good relationship with organized labor. But he could say no to them on key items like charter schools and Cass and and high academic standards and in fact I think he because he was from Chelsea he observed what could be possible. You know when Voss university was there as a way to inspire what he thought about in the 90s with before.

My guest is Jamie gass he is the director of the Center for school reform at the Pioneer Institute and we're talking about the Lawrence schools coming back under a receivership state receiver Jeffrey Riley took over the job was and was appointed to take over the job of improving the school system. But my guess Jamie Gav says these little fixes are not enough. What we need is a Katrina moment and to be clear when you say Katrina moment I think people need to understand that meant that the public school system you know because of all the flooding and the devastation really was wiped out. So they started again from scratch they built from scratch and ask themselves the kinds of questions that you're saying should be asked here what do we want this to look like how are the students impacted. What is the best way to deal now with a devastated community and one on his way bet. All of those kinds of questions but it seems to me that. Who would have the political will or even not if not the will the wherewithal to say OK enough of this.

Let's just start from the beginning. Right now I mean I think you know look I think you know as much as all the reform shouldn't come down from the top of this sort of command and control approach doesn't typically work in education reform. The tone of leadership is really at the top and you know Brian McGrory had a great piece today in the globe where he was was talking about the governor who gave an I think an excellent and impassioned speech at the Democratic National Convention. We need to see that similar kind of bold enthusiastic and impassioned leadership on this issue in in Lawrence and frankly in other cities across the commonwealth. Places like Springfield and Holyoke in Fall River in New Bedford. We've made enormous progress under education reform. But there are these deep pockets of chronic underperformance. They are disproportionately impacting poor kids and students of color. And we think it's unconscionable and we really hope that the legislature and the governor will really really move on this and I again I think we have models from other parts of the country that really show us a way forward some of what they're doing I think

in Lawrence is is good and a good first step and makes sense. But we can think Boulder and other places are and we're are an educational leader and need to be keeping pace with the kind of reforms that people in other parts of the country are doing well could make that happen. Governor Deval Patrick himself because I mean Jeffrey Riley the state receiver can't make that decision. He can I mean in the. So the the the the Board of Education at this point is was picked entirely by the by the governor and reports really to the governor and the secretary of education so the governor or the secretary of education the commissioner of education in the leadership in the legislature could really get their minds around a complete charter school Kaplan if there are about 300 60 seats. In charge of charter seats that are available in Lawrence. You know we would like to see you know as the model in D.C. or in New Orleans where 40 percent of the students are in charter school and that would really require you know having basically 4000 students in additional students in charter schools.

Jamie Gans can you make clear to those of us who are not in the school system why charter schools are the model that everybody seems to be pushing. I mean when we talk about Lawrence and the devastation in the school system what's happening with the kids. I mean one stat that stands out is a 40 percent dropout rate that's huge. There are many other devastating kinds of statistics to deal with. So if you have more charter schools why is that better. Well the thing about it is the real the grand bargain within education reform was money in exchange for more accountability but the real bargain with charter schools and they were they were crafted by the education reform law in the early 90s was that the schools would have greater autonomy so freedom from a lot of the state regulations freedom from the collective bargaining agreements in exchange for greater accountability so if they don't perform they're shut down and it really operates from the principle that you know kids in particular poor kids shouldn't have to stay in bad schools and. The fact is that the result in Massachusetts is really stellar charter schools across

the country the record is a little bit more mixed. But in Massachusetts we have been very very rigorous about selecting the schools that can be opened and very rigorous about shutting the schools that don't perform. I mean for example you know 15 charter schools are ranked number one in the state. And the 20 11 in CAS test I mean that's a remarkable achievement and in a significant number of those schools are urban schools and some of the best charter schools in Massachusetts are in Boston and some of the best charter schools ranked in the country are in Boston. But it has attracted a kind of entrepreneurial risk taking spirit among school leaders and it's paid off enormously for the for the kids in the schools. So on a day to day basis the kid that's in this charter school. Let's say in Lawrence and they and the kid that's in the slow to change and Katrina moment rest of the system. What are they what's what is their experience. It really couldn't be more night and day so you know the research is pretty clear

that a couple of years in a high performing charter school can take students that are a couple years behind and within a few several years get them not only on par with their peers but in some instances performing the students and well you know Wellesley or west and if it is a transformative experience there's no question it's very demanding some of the kids in the charter schools get up early in the morning they they take a bus or they take the train from from Boston up to say the match charter school up on Kamel Avenue. They have longer school days. They have a lot of work intensive work with with tutors after school. The teachers and the administrators are on the phone constantly checking back and forth with parents about the student's progress. So they really don't allow the students to slip through the cracks and you know that's part of what they're trying to do in Lawrence match charter school in Boston is one of the charter schools that is is working in Lawrence and is going to be training some of the from some of the teachers in Lawrence and that's a good first step. But the

experience in a charter school is really transformative. Whereas you know the traditional public schools tend to be very commanding controlled the superintendent's office really makes all of the decision has all the budgetary authority. And so the people that are doing the work the teachers and the principals at the school level are constantly you know have you have someone looking over their shoulder and that's just not you know that's not a very common sensical way to manage work. And but on top of it there are these There's no question there's more accountability and there's more freedom from from state regulations. All right so here's the reality. So you've got a few charter schools there not as many as you would recommend. You've got a top down. Decision making happening and the way you describe it is very slow actually. Some of some of the statistics seem to indicate a very slow improvement process on the way. Good first step. As you said. So what about those kids in Lawrence. So you've got some that might be

beneficial might be benefiting from a charter school. You've got the rest to maybe slightly improve school situation and a whole mass of them in the middle. You know I mean it it really is it's a it's a heartbreaking tale and I mean in the reality of it is that there are hundreds of thousands of kids in this commonwealth that are stuck in low performing urban districts and that's you know in particular why we think the charter school option the Met co-option is fabulous we could expand METCO to cities like Lawrence and and Springfield Soria Holyoke and others. That would create you know great opportunities for kids to go from a failing urban school district into a suburban school districts around them it's a similar kind of model to the charter school in the sense that the kids get up sometimes at 4 5 o'clock in the morning and take long bus rides in order to get to these schools. And then there's the vocational technical schools which have a microscopic dropout rate. And their performances per improved

dramatically and cast over the last several years there are virtual schools that could address kids with their either dropouts or that is that our gifted and talented that are in these failing schools. And so there's there's a variety of options that are on the table but it doesn't necessarily need to be just be the charter schools. We think that that is the best available option. But there could also be school choice I mean there could be a genuine school choice that is to say vouchers that you you put a voucher into the hands of a parent and the parents could select a private or parochial school in the area. And so you know we just think that that needs to be a wide menu of options for parents because we just don't think that you know year after year decade after decade that the students and the parents should have to wait for the state or the municipal government to get its act together. Any chance anybody's listening to you. You know I you know I think so I mean I think that you know we had an event just in the end of July with with Jeff with Jeff Riley and he didn't actually he was the keynote he did an excellent job we had about

100 people at the event. It was very well attended we had former commissioners and and and a lot of policy makers from Beacon Hill and I think people are really beginning to realize that as well as Massachusetts has done. We can't wait for Superman anymore. All right. That's Jamie guess he's the director of the Center for school reform at the planar Institute we've been talking about the Lawrence schools and perhaps having a Katrina moment. And we'll see if anybody's listening game Jimi guess thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for joining us for another edition of Boston Public Radio. Tune in tomorrow for a conversation with Harvard Professor Michael Sandel about what it means to live in a society where everything is for sale. That's tomorrow. I'm Kelly Crossley. Boston Public Radio is a production of WGBH.