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One of the most significant and far reaching developments on the continent of Europe is the gradually improving relations diplomatic and economic between the nations of Eastern and Western Europe. No longer is the Iron Curtain an accurate image. Trade and even travel between and among the Western European countries and their socialist counterparts of Eastern Europe has drawn the curtain aside a key to this development is the divided country in the center. Germany in recent times the Federal Republic of West Germany has affected a slow but very definite change in its outlook to the east. A new flexibility and tolerance of hard political facts is an evidence of this so called this politic has been a cornerstone of the country's first grand coalition government of the leading social democratic and Christian Democratic parties which came into power with more than 15 months ago. To discuss this trend in Europe and its characteristics today and its implications for the future I have with me here in the studio two men uniquely qualified to do so. I
am ass handler long time correspondent for The New York Times in Eastern Europe and Bonn and Dr. Stephan Thomas of West Germany one time head of the Eastern Department of the Social Democratic Party and presently the director of the international department of the Friedrich stiffle a leading educational foundation in the country. All right gentleman talking first about this politic. We have some interesting developments in recent days notably the change of power in Czechoslovakia. I wonder how you interpret this news. You probably are better informed on developments in eastern Europe than any of your compatriots who are working in the same area because we have a long association problem. Do you have any evidence that the accession of Mr Dubcek as the first secretary of the Czech party. And the dismissal was allowed by the Czechoslovak party and the D. The dismissal of Hendrick as
the secretary for ideology the Central Committee. Which may affect the home attitude of the Czech regime in its relations with Western countries specifically with your own country or does this change over simply reflect a struggle over domestic policies and checks lacking. Well the thing that I think in all of this events and shows a lack of empire. Has the most significant importance and consequences as you may remember Nanda I think we discussed years ago you know when we discuss the Eastern European problems. When you and your family there was always the question of why there might some think might turn up in Poland you know many a hundred in any country is all summed up but the chicks will never do it. This kind of opinion. All this pollen superficial and absolutely contrary to the whole spiritual intellectual makeup of the Czech and Slovak nation and then
when you see it since the last three years was this kind of very interesting development in the intellectual word in but Islam in Slovakia and in China or in terms like Empire back then I think that the first signals of very important changes. This kind of intellectual infrastructure of the country and all visitors went to apply for about Islam and who had a chance to talk to the people who are really important in the intellectual worth. They all came back with the most questioning the part about their own way of thinking about this kind of escalation in critical thoughts against the Czechs studying whatever you mean your study and your teacher I would say in ours there's no one in and fast in Germany no botany in English there was always the same kind of as he is there were only two men of the Stalinist Diggler Jeem where Or as was the question when will know what an eagle. Well I think the trick means a new chapter
Poynton listens but a new chip does the whole development inside the Soviet bloc and definitely has a history of just like it and I think there's two points one point and that I think is a very intriguing very interesting point doctor because a Slovak he comes concerts like him Communist Party and you know I was a history of just like all of us was that the Slovaks charts the checks that they are dominated by the Czechs were here for the first time you have the men Number one is a slower. He is he belongs to the younger generation and I think he has poisoned your time and thoughts. A new development inside so I was like Yeah there's no doubt about it. You just mentioned him leached who has been say two days ago I was really offended when I saw the news of the New York Times. I thought whoa that is a further step and this points of liberalization and pragmatist just like policy and the second point was for me could be at the Budapest conference where he mentioned his own child a Slovak view of the new By
developed a policy towards Western Europe and told Germany not to fall in this kind of slogans about imperialistic and warmongering western Germany as it was time to suggest he's done he's done German by Harnick and the delegation from Eastern Europe here was only the first signal from society that the Czechs mean business with us. Business means following up with the new elements which have been developed by the new German body. Mr. Chairman you just mentioned as even and I think that's a very far did you meant as it was we're going to discuss it further more. But I think you have also a check positive checklist dance to the new initiatives of bunts foreign Aust politic and this is based on one chief element. Deep tongued understanding good neighborhood and trying to liquidate it take the chapter of the past the past of the Germans against this level of nations and the east. You said that you feel that this Czech development is directly due to the politic.
Why don't you also feel that it's due perhaps to the Romanian example and Mr Charter School and so I had with this problem I will do something if it is part of a Potts's which really started years ago. The porters of I would say and. Put the centers in you know the famous unlawfully centrism. I think after the 20th party congress voted 56 that little historians would Mike the kind of turning point and Slovakia is drawing to consequences of this portrait of national defense nation inside the Soviet bloc and I think what doctrine is not church or school. They are different I think we all should try to see all of the countries in the Eastern Bloc according to their own national frame to their own national substance. But definitely jealous or like you. Decisions is going this way off strong arm or marked national independence and stressing this point very fine Did you witness this when
you were a correspondent in Eastern Europe. Yes the Czechs and Slovaks. Who had to develop. I had to live with occupying powers for many many centuries have developed techniques where of for survival which are quite unique in Europe. And that I always find that it is always important to remember that the Czechs as Dr. Thomas mentioned in conversation before we came onto this program the checks in a manner of speaking maintain a double entry accounting system. The one that is visible and which gives certain shows a certain balance. And behind that is the private one. And in my experience in Prague and Bratislava and another Czech Slovak cities. I always have the
queasy feeling that when the man when the men spoke to me and these were officials of the government. But there was always a double meaning in what they were trying to say to me. The history of the development of the Slovak Communist Party. Presents certain interesting problems and perhaps parallels. We know for example that the partisan movement in Czechoslovakia during the war developed in Slovakia. The realities of the biscuits and the Tathagata rather than in that rather than in Chicago he meows and Moravia. I wonder whether there is a parallelism between the attitudes and political attitudes that emerge from people who take weapons to fight for their own liberation as in the case of Yugoslavia and those who rather collaborate actively or passively. Whether this forms
a psychological background for the development. Of the slow thinking slow back politically and I think it was then that you touched a very important psychological time. You know I mean you mentioned Yugoslavia you were sloppy I mean that was no accident. 1948 no accident that that as they go but on Tito the parties who went in the woods and the mountains and ports and Nazis there's this kind of action which they really bought as a second phase of their own national independence that they were the first to say no to study in 1948 and then to break away in the summer 1948 from Soviet Russia. Well that is a most heroic act and that really initiated support as you remember for weeks later you know as opposed to the same kind of feeling not to become Soviet does not become one. Right. But going to polish way and I think here this way of this kind of heroic past and little of his blood has a very important
meaning for farming and for the formation of the will of Independence and the Slovaks were different they were always different story from the tracks and then I think here that they took to the weapons took to the woods and forts and Nazis by this kind of assistance right. I think that had a meaning and you can trace it through the whole 20 years in Slovakia that there always was among the intellectuals this kind of absolutely reserved attitude to the whole policy of Praga of got wide know what me about all of these guys are so I think there is I would know that a stock has come to pyke is no way I think a kind of historical verdict about a development that was fascinating consequence. How about some of the developments and some of the other Eastern European countries who we have to start with. Rumania Rumania way or mania is definitely a cutie and I would say if I was in Germany it was one of the most encouraging things
as Armenians as a first acknowledged and realized that the policy of the great coalition as you mentioned business nor which we started in on December 1966. This is a participation or social democrats for the first time in government after 36 years in Germany and this is kind of fake you know that a man like really Blunt who is a foreign minister of the federal part of Germany was an anti-fascist In any event who lived outside Germany fortnights of a particular person. And they're coming from the socialistic the youth movement and the socialistic movement of Germany. This has some kind of impact in Bucharest in Prague in Budapest in Vassall and we are told that even in Moscow they are thinking very very in a kind way and or that they have to start to differentiate that you can't say that they are imperialist what moments in all of this kind of things because the band as a sort of Democrat has never been imperious it cannot be an imperious. So when Byrne talks peace it's meant peace. If you speak about de
tongue they know it is detente and it is a new chapter in the German Eastern European relations and you know it was one of the most intriguing things when Blunt went down to the moon to Bucharest. He talked for five hours with us. They were talking to men of the same generation coming nearly from the same kind of ground of a kind of social evolution of their background. There's this kind of appeal you to change the structure and they went their own of evolutionary ways but they found their base of understanding why it didn't change the communist church at school and didn't change the Democrat bunt. But there was a basis for peace and this kind of new relations between your PIN East European wing in Germany so I think on this point of view is a very important point. But here I would like to make another point. You know so flexible and pragmatic. The foreign policy of ammonia is dong that. Not forget for one minute that there is internal policy. It's a very tough rigid communist regime.
Secret police and all the things and I mean that doesn't cause another question how far the under developed I would say intellectual infrastructure of ammonia is really you know making it easy for too authoritarian regime to live this way. But what we have to register is it's a foreign policy if you will to independence from Moscow its absolutely marked as the best example was the way I was a warrior's walked out and put up best as I didn't like to be offended by nobody. There were moments there were million communists and they don't want to like to become Soviet communists I think that is only you. Well I would say well they will be proud is the last resort because here historically they can't really was the Bulgarians were always the most punched slow this use a pencil movement there are kind of historical elements of Czarist Russia trying to hit a guy as a way to international independence the 19th century and their links emotional links between the blue guys and the very close for 100 years and as you
remember. Do you need 12 after 1945 it was communist and communist. Well he lived in Moscow here is cause Restylane he died very soon but he was the only or solidly probably who could have developed a way to a more Bulgarian independence after Dimitroff was the types who came after him. The small mediocre provincial but I think we need a long time to follow the piles of hormone shots like hunger you know just a few words about how well he would say of course if you see the tragedy of cod and the like and that you only survive by accident so the term would tell is to get regime off of the I think he came as a man after the Hungarian Revolution and the way how they tried to go their own ways. I think that's very interesting indeed to have things they try to find their own plate medic can carry away
and very interesting and concern is the attitude toward Germany flexible pragmatic and open minded. But still taking certain regards to the Soviet wish and wish to have some kind of discipline. We talked about our Slovakia. Yes for we fell in love to a point I think before we go in the other. Tears of Eastern Europe how about you Mr. Hanna what do you except a lot of a lot of this and you have some other interpret I or I agree with Dr. Thomas's analysis of the problem. But what I was interested in at this point Dr. Thomas was speaking was how far the bomb government is prepared to go in seeking to establish a modus vivendi with Eastern European governments beyond offering substantial trade and credits. Is the West German government prepared to make any political concessions and would such a policy.
Received substantial support among the German people. When I hear you I think if you analyze the declarations of the King and govern the speeches declinations addresses of the parliament in Bonn you will find that there is a line which is going beyond the Tate and cultural relations which all of us without steps a kind of normalization of relations between states and nations. There's an interesting formula of the government now and taking up and stressed by very blunt again and again the famous give a perfect system at Leon's event on Setian of forces that call a criminal sanction or force while that is an interesting formula from the political point of your thoughts what is the point of view because it means. From now onwards we have as a declared with only one meaning of politics as it is by peaceful means to develop our relations and never again will be any repetition of the
former German imperial Politico its European East and I think that is a very marked kind of new development and it has been understood in the computers of Eastern Europe and we didn't mention Poland up to now Mr Snow. But if you'll kindly allow I would like to get Poland now into the picture because this formula of an institution of course has a most important meaning for Vasile and supports the organized line for my territories has been lost by Germany in Pomeranian so Lesia Pasha. And now the question how was this come into this formula. Well here I think this formula I would judge the police use of Polish policy and I think your example is Utah Germany. I think it could be the beginning of the beginning of a new realistic assessment on the Polish side of the goodwill of the government of the German government of fun and it can be only the beginning because I mean they are so
many many points and elements to be clear it is this tragic terrible tragic history of boys and Germans. So you cannot rush with any kind of thing but it needs you know a very slow patient approach if you will kindly allow me I would like to give us a Titian of a very famous speech really been made some months ago and Burnand as accommodation of the 100 years bursty of one great German Weimar Foreign Ministry vital to know who your member was murdered by extremists. Is it twenties lived out in Lars memorial speech of the plant that he gave a citation. Offers the famous German philosopher for Italy's nature who once said that all of the great events in history who were no good for human beings all that came by a sudden ect. But all of the great and good things in history came by pigeon feet. You say you use a
region steps but here are I think and gave the citation and I think it's part of the philosophy of foreign policy of the German government that you have you need patience patience and patience. You needs a whole collective wisdom and always the consequences of that barbaric experience of the past in order to reach a stage of credibility of German policy towards in the East and in the east and I think he is the beginning here's a new chapter speaking about oh no just what significance do you attach to this recent very recent study that's been been said I can see which apparently. Advocates that that West Germany were now its claim to the two these territories and Pomeranians and also I was interested to see that there was from the basis of a small sampling of the public opinion which they took. There was apparently a majority opinion of the people that they questioned the West German public which favored this policy as well.
This is a well let's just in one sentence explain what's been spared because I suppose our listeners were brought into this in the way it is. They respected Catholic intellectuals in the Federal Republic of Germany as thinkers politicians and all kind of all ways of life and they were ranked for a long time for months and months in order to provide a document of this new assistant of the German Polish relations. And it's not an isolated act. I might remind you that there was a declaration of the German Catholic bishops in advice to the Castlereagh bishops of Poland one year ago. Then there was the Protestant church who did a very interesting document nearly on the same line subinspector class I think all of this documents prove one thing that is a public opinion in Germany for the public of Germany. There's a growing tendency. To
develop then you have a realistic and very pragmatic approach to the problems that we face and which have been left after this second world war on the agenda of the great part of us and and you're absolutely right Mr Snow. There's Ben's bag a document found in the pool of the public opinion but I have to be fair and have to make the other point to that of course a former grade refugee organization representing his interest of the millions of Germans who came from the eastern marches of Germany they voiced their not just but that kind of death. Does this document and there's now a debate going on in the public opinion in Germany about those points but I think in a pluralistic democracy a debate is always a good thing because clarifying the mind and helping is a way towards this aims. But the government just did let detente understanding and good neighborhood. So I think the meaning of the documents at the posit since the end of the last war
the anti-German policy represent the principal cement that tire and the peoples of Eastern Europe to their new regimes and as a result of more than two decades of propaganda. This question of the eastern front two years has become a very central part part of the psyche at least in your view. Do you think there is a possibility that the after this debate that you describe has run its course that the West German government may take the bull by the horns by formal declaration and renounce its reserve claims to these to the ordination frontier. Do you think that make that may come some way in order to disarm this East anti-German sentiment in the U.S. and Europe is that unless there's one of these the Krishnas I think one of the most crucial questions of judgment on
the politics and Jennifer on politics and if I might say to you you just said a bold step and then use it some day it might come but I would stress much was the second point you made you know some day it might come that means realistic assessment about the necessities which has been left but. I think that it will not come today or not tomorrow because you know if you look at history there's no nation who gave up the toys and as I said to the side there's no example in history and then if you look at supporters German relations their relations for 1000 years the Polish state just celebrated last year 1000 year history of their existence for cattle to the point where it's 1000 you have German Polish relations and I have the privilege on my mother's side to come from the US but it's a privilege to study and also speak the language. I think I know a little bit about supporters German history and that you know what I think this kind of history which has been
in 10 minutes was essentially switch head faces off close and more News Corp between Poles and Germans. When you're mind you 100 years ago when Poland had no interest no independence no independence there was a waif in Germany among intellectuals in poets so called poor in their point of pulling you know eighteen thousand eight hundred forty eight. There are wonderful border songs written by German ports. All that they have faces of close family. But then came you know I mean as a distance whether it was sick and then Hitler Auschwitz nor that what sense is there's no Polish family didn't suffer under this barbaric occupation quite that way. Here we have you know as this eminence of the past so I think. It will take time it will take time and we need patience. We need a lot of patience. But the most important thing is that there was once a pause must start to understand that as a goodwill towards common of course nations that I think is a most remarkable thing. There can be
no declaration today about Scn and station of the status it must be as the German government says. A question which will be settled as a peace conference but I think that as far as can I can judge the opinion of the government and public opinion as a fellow public. There's goodwill tarts in you good relation as a Polish nation would be dominant at this peace conference and there will be found a way of mutual your true kind of. I would say a declaration about this issue of the new frontiers and this ties and I think I would like to infuse here another dimension if I may. Loudness does what I would like to stress the European point of view. If you take the kind of commitment of German policy in the German public opinion towards the European dimension. If your tax initiatives of early but aren't trying to get Great Britain in Scandinavia I mean that as a German initiative trying
to overcomes a reservation of the golems of French and their opposition towards the entry of Great Britain as it's going in even countries because it's failed by US and Germany that Europe is in you concrete realistic dimensional future policy political developments in the years to come. Well what does it mean if all of this European nation form really politically new institutionalized form of political existence and then the poles are you hoping the Czechs Hungary and zero minions. All that can be seen from when you are suspect and then the question of the founders and the Question of the cause of the past will be a letter dated. It should be seen in a new relation. I think that is a way towards this kind of solution. But there can be no spontaneous act of enunciation of any territory certainly of the German industry was told by some lawyers or observers. Advocated a new policy toward eastern Europe long before. Oh yes he did a lot
of tips as you remember it was sort of long before many other people do groups in Germany. How active is the industrial group in West Germany today. I broke a tooth with a new chain just I think you may have missed the end of a very active indeed because as you remember the whole structure of trait of the industrial Germany has and had always traditionally a great 26. The famous last hundred of the fell of I want your body somewhat biased it was really he took up the same kind of traditional balance which the German industry had for since they became industrialized Darcy's. So there's that traditional ground and if you takes affairs in Poznan well takes Leipsic fat and takes to fast in the eastern parts of Europe. There you would almost find the German industry stands as a most I would say stylized
you know the. Well they tell me that I saw their way their majority but they are dominantly It's a fast busy old industrial products you know. So he I think is a quite natural inclination by this kind of industrial exigencies of German trade and production to find Chinas in the way is to increase the flow of trade thoughts you hope. Eastern Europe I find it interesting that we've talked for more than a half an hour an East Germany hasn't been mentioned. Oh well that's so much for the little guy resist wondering whether or not the public opinion. I'm not speaking of government dependency at least in Europe is hostile toward East Germany as it was in the 50s you know whether qualitatively there are more friendly toward West Germany today where they don't want East Germany which was the case in the 50s. Yes and I know as I say it is not still true when I tell you in some ways it's too tall I tell you.
But for different reasons if I might say. You see eastern Germany. But is develop a common economic development of Eastern Germany after they made up their mind about this kind of totalitarian missed organization and that started in January 1968 after the six party congress and that there was a terrific economic reforms. Eastern Germany is today the most decisive important trade partner for the Soviet Union and it dominating industrial state and Soviet block. What does it mean. It means a sense of self-confidence. This kind of cocky feeling of the German Communists going to Budapest Booker's Zawia Vassallo and trying to tell them what they have to do in their relations for instance towards western Germany. You know here's a very interesting situation here is a new German government in Bonn trying in a very fair way to develop a new policy of understanding
and deterring towards Eastern Europe and then punk or trying to isolate Western Germany and to tell them in Eastern Europe don't trust them don't believe them and they don't like it. So here you have a new kind of empty feelings against. So it would be too easy on their own kind of national independent feeling involved on all these countries because we know better we have to normalize our relations are the germination and germination means the majority. So fellow public or Western Germany or Germany and here I think there is a complicated by kind of this kind of elation. To sum it up. The orbital regime and the communist function is what eastern Germans are not popular. And no computers. They're not popular there. And if that you speak about Germany in Eastern Europe it's obvious Mensa Federal Republic of Germany by quantity quality and importance was the political point of view. So here and in order to conclude this point they know it and you stand on it and that that explains partly this kind of
high static hectic activities we say this year my game of the game in order to stop this kind of constant of emotion which I would call points of normalization between the relations of Germany and Eastern Europe. So I would say fine you for different reasons. This kind of empty feeling against a gentle communist is still kept up of course. It's not all one sided I mean there is historically there's the whole Stein doctrine. Yeah how about you Mr. Handler when you were reporting in Eastern Europe and also in Bonn How did this to destroy Putin this seem to be a pretty diplomatically passive posture for West Germany did it seem to us at that time the whole time doctrine did the Germans a great disservice. And because of that it curved the field of action in which the West German government could operate. But I think since the abandonment of this doctrine the new roads new avenues have been opened up for the
West German government. But what I was going to ask Dr. Thomas was is how much political weight this plank have in Moscow compared to the political influence of the other communist governments. And should perhaps explain what Parco Pankaj was the seat of the East German regime but actually if you allow me that is then left as a doubt and I would say Congress us about and you stand there. You know there's eventually caught dozens us about so we can all use a pump because it's a very dense of oil which means that hopefully your central committee that well so let's stick to Punggol our listeners know you know when punk or I think you know concerning this relation is punk or Moscow I would say they have a car's high standing has a scale you say scale the scale of this kind of priorities and value present reasons
dimension is the most important partner. It's the most important the deliverer of a Hajji industrial goods because I mean eastern Germany got the same industrial efficiencies the same workers the same engineers the same plane as a workers or Western Germany ends a still if it kept tested your industrial production and all of that is highly valued by Moscow. And then of course I mean the key position of Germany as such. I would say you're a member of the whole history of the 50 years of Soviet Union for Lenin Germany was the key to your people evolution. If you take it off for millennia via style in a horse trough to go see invasion you have in Germany or what they call it if you speak Russian you know is a kind of permanent element of importance in our lives you know. So I would say the importance of the German factor as a whole strategic and tactical thinking of the Soviets will stay dumb in the end it all for all time to come because who has Germany has Europe
and that was I mean and that is kept as a kind of it turned a little rude for the thought of Moscow. So I think here from this point of view Germany Eastern Germany's a Pungo regime will have the specific meaning and the specific importance. But but. What I think we should see is that after 45 of course new ective absolutely new will qualify to the lesions developed between the poles and some hyphens and all of the other nations towards Moscow. I think there is this deep ingrained knowledge among the poles and you know by history they never liked us and never never never. But now is the reason that it is telling them we have to develop this kind of absolute loyal relations to Moscow. So here I think is your must differentiate and noisy feelings toward from Moscow towards all of this kind of countries in Eastern Europe. But Germany will stay in a high priority in the scale of evaluation of Moscow in this
connection. Is there any evidence yet of the merger. Oh I grew Cate's of national communism in East Germany. But that's a very interesting question yes but I'll tell you. Or is it too early. I tell you I think you know why Larry comes if I might add another question addressed by the answer. What will happen after all bushed you know. I mean because I always do that and also he lay I mean he has as many as 75 coming up to 75 years old and now already a lot of questions are asked in our circus and was wondering what would come after him. Because as it is in every totally turn the regime of a top man is leaving there's no vacant no system for you. Developments will come after studies this time I think transformation of the Soviet Union and placed in the last chapter of his own way he became the father figure and he said to me as you remember it was noise like that you know he there were faces when he was on the way out but after fifty
eight you can't explain it now why after 58 I would say in the last 10 years this man developed the absolute aside you off the high standing of acknowledgement inside eastern Germany and inside the Communist International World why when a man like this leaves. Well look at the other guys you know if the police bureau or the boys aren't they are names of absolute mediocrity. I make her Zinda found out. Who are they just provincial politicians provincial communists as I know no meaning whatsoever. Stuart was an interesting figure as a man as a prime minister and the executive and so I think after we breached there will be this kind of dual bird do a kind of regime between Han a guess a party secretary and store as an executive level comparable to course he can bridge near government and party. But then after this kind of peg for the first time for the first phase after death then zero porters will start and then I think you know that's all
open or open and many think depend on the policy which Bunkley develop and their way of peaceful passion ration tarts my name. I won a game I would like to say to us a few many zation off the table. Void and partition of Germany. Minefields all of this I mean that is such an episode in humanity is the twentieth century the voyage ends of hunger that I think this will be the one in the end here. Many imaginative possibilities. Absolutely possible. So I think you know it's a lot of isolated parts as you must easily close interdependency interrogation of David inside the Soviet Zone as a policy which the other part of Germany would be develop towards this new development. You speak to her more about the possibility of a more more nationalization of the Communist Party Nation or national World Vision only I understand of but I. I think I know other interesting issue is the fact that well there can be an existence of any communist party in Westerly. This has been our work since 1956 and I see there's now increasing talk
in West Germany about permitting the Communist Party. That's my personal opinion first ones are beginning so and many of my friends shout my opinion I think it was a great blunder for the federal government to declare the Communist Party illegal. Because you see by the developments after 1945 the Communists became an isolated sect and the public opinion of Germany was either by the normal procedure of elections they lost their seats on Parliament and the public got Germany they lost their seats in the end in the Bundestag and sit in their parliament in Bonn and there was no necessity to create a party illegal and to give them a kind of humanism and a kind of subclass of activities where they could continue their own way. I think it was a blunder their mistake so. The discussion today centering about this ungodly blunder but communism in Germany. I think that would be little what historians have to state is no kind of political alternative anymore. After all that what happened
in the direct confrontation with the communist reality is another part of Germany. I think nothing counts more in life and politics as the experience and I would say the is the kind of you know things which you see because there's a Stalinist argumentation and I think the difference between the life and the further public of Germany was a kind of pluralistic democracy freedom and liberties on the other side the Soviet experiment in the other part of Germany where there is a verdict of history about communism in Germany. Therefore I think national communism if I might just return and conclude this point. Has no political historical chance to become any formative force in moving and influencing the future developments of the German nation. I think it's likely that it will become a legal force for that. But that's really what I was interested mainly the party will be if we go out there and I tell you it is a bit difficult because by institutional law you see though they the government the parliament passed a law which the Supreme Court then delivered in forbidding the Communist
Party by analyzing the totalitarian character of the party. You must change the law again and there's a very complicated procedure by parliament and the highest court you know so I think it's a question of debate and discussions. But it has no political importance. Dr. Thomas Willis connection. The ability of the East German intelligence service to penetrate. Yes the government departments about government and government by the government. The very substantial number of cases cases with spirit even reaching into your security operators and your defense ministry Exactly. Does that have any significance so far as the social fabric of West Germany. Since when I tell you it's really a very serious problem because you see we are an open society. I mean I mean any intelligence service you know operating at the very
public I think it's the easiest target ever to operate because open democratic accessible I think and there's kind of added You know I think every democracy is handicapped in a way I mean the easiest thing is to secure your server cards any kind of penetration and intelligence. So to this day in society it was a Telus to elements of that but I think all of this service is operating as a further public have an early to be easy guy on top. Well here are the things that any of them immediately it is this kind of political consciousness and you say consciousness you know just kind of you know our spiritual attitude of a citizen in a democratic society to differentiate between kind of I would say really important elements of news and information which you cannot give to anybody whom you don't know and the kind of national discipline I would say and this kind of easy talking which you'll find in Bonn quite often in the cocktail party you're going or this kind of thing you know. So I think closet time to come after every case the
security measures have been stringent and certain precautions have been taken. And so we have to continue in this way. But if the movie I think you know it so in a mentally intake part of our own freedoms and liberties of our Constitution are the full impact of our democratic society. So I think we have a carefully to over do it consenting kind are all kind of measures in order not to ISO invalidate our own freedoms and liberties. So the interview dilemma but I think that is a dilemma in any democratic society. Getting back to the broad picture of the trends throughout Europe. One way that I would interpret some of what you said Dr. Thomas's is that increasingly both because of the more independence on the part of the Eastern European communist parties and because of a new more flexible policy on the part of West Germany and particularly France that increasingly there is a rapprochement and so forth but you have you have indicated that perhaps unconsciously or indirectly you've indicated that East Germany is get becoming more and more isolated in this process and I think that that's quite
what do you not feel that such a development would be would be detrimental to the long term and federation of Europe or I think this is now you take the very important point. You see the kind of John an intense engines of the Communist apartheid in Eastern Germany. This kind of vendetta and all that what they try to isolate the further public of Germany by their own propaganda this really be I think a few times and because they can't succeed. This kind of really is an eastern Europe we go towards the acknowledgement of the Western German efforts for detente and peace and order so they will not succeed here and I think the next stage will be probably And there I come again after which in all of this what would happen then. A kind of ocean Pulitzers incites a communist in the eastern part of Germany. You see they are I think thousands and thousands of high ranking military economic ministers intellectuals You know I mean
the same time there's a lot here and there you know some of them are existing and I only need to mention one name. Apple it was men who committed suicide. There are thousands of others that means silence of people who are engaged in life and supporters of development Eastern Germany and have their own mind independent from the communist epic in Eastern Germany and I think they are our allies early allies of common sense allies who will understand this effort of humanisation of this terrible front yours and mine fields and I think you know I'm an optimist I would say I think common sense and and kind of mess of politics and leading towards understanding Humanisation and peace nor that they will prevail in the long pauses and we really peer through this process. So one day if I might have just a look into the future. One day I think modalism even could be reached on this kind of you know German terms and that would be a great
date. Mr. Minister Mr. Han I'd like to get your ideas on this precisely the same question based upon your many years both in Eastern Europe and Bonn for the New York Times. I'm rather puzzled by this development you see on the basis of preceding models at least in Europe. The rapid industrialization created a whole new class of managerial class which formed really the seed bed for the liberalization. We see this in Russia. The thing that puzzles me though is that it is the question that was discussed several years ago. Namely our two Germany's two German culture is developing. People who are at work on this problem even song too did it changes in the languages in both I mean all you know is terminology and.
It is worth these studies badly documented are two German cultures developing two German dull times showering is developing because if that is so rare an irreversible process is a movement. And I'm not sure that these studies were well documented but they were simply evidence that was produced at the time was quite disturbing. I wonder how you people in West Germany See this past year very important find. I tell you you see the lion off Pungo today is that too new to German nations. Slowly evolving and this kind of. So when I whooshed in a different parts of development that I'm assessment is that for the first time in history the fast what doesn't. German workers and peasant state as a matching the first. And from this on words and their own kind of.
He studied philosophy I think that is the new Germany and we have had a problem to me as a West or diamonds of the kind on Pyrrus the capitalistic society. Sentenced one day in a story development to be overtaken by this new progress if German forces east. Well that is a philosophy of weight of the regime. And then they all the declaiming today and they just one of these days you know as they are discussing their new constitution and that is a constitution of a new German socialistic state. But I tell you 1968 and up to now you know the twenty three years after 1945 it's all nonsense to speak about the German Tiffany's. I mean the NA was the star great background of the German nation. You know a few dozen of us going as a back up to today. But language. You know Dr. Thomas. Doctor I have now. Yes I was very active There's been discounts and oh yes good heavens yes.
Even your colleagues used to say. Well for doctor out of Europe east of the Elbe it was terra incognita. I don't know where he was that I know he came home but I knew it all he didn't like the teletype and the certainly the moral climate in West Germany when I was working. Seemed to indicate that this saying was not only true for Dr. Ratner it was true for many West Germans. And that really there existed an almost. I was going to say subconscious but almost conscious fear. East Eastern Europe I mean eastern Europe represented the great unknown threatening the Damocles sword hanging over the heads of the German people because of a lack of knowledge because after all the West Germans are West European oriented and
culturally psychologically emotionally and cetera. On the other hand the people of Brandenburg. Yes. Home again you know I'm raising money my stuff doesn't. Historically for a thousand years they were oriented toward eastern Europe and not toward Western Europe. Their entire world outlook was toward the eastern marches. So that in a sense historically the East German does have a different psychology the different historical outlook than the west Germany. And this speaks for this whole idea of I think of two German nation as. Who are psychologically oriented and quite a different way. And the fact remains if you just look at German names in Brandenburg in Pomerania prized the number of so many of Slovak Slavic male yes men who
who governed men who led a man who commanded the armies I mean that if there was a historic process of assimilation or even integration among the border peoples they have absorbed because of the psychology of Eastern Europe. These German doesn't look upon the east eastern european with fear. That is shared by so many of the West Your West Germans who already have to turn toward Western Europe and this is a historic fact that can be sort of pushed aside I think it is a very important element in the German psyche. You see here is the success of your kind your long you know. What I think is the most pressing kind of find online and it's very interesting and you absolutely unite and correct in stating that this kind of points point after point. You know I would even add another point I mean I mean and other than to make my counterparts
from a different point of view of course you see I'm a burden and I come by my whole family standing from the East and much of it. And I live now and I find in the fatherland of I dunno and I miss people. And I tell you I agree with you I feel different and I feel different and one thing definite when they make that kind of hide you know the famous kind of is that they are going there's no question you know shock. Well you know I saw you on Sunday night and I don't know what kind of jokes they make you know they laugh at the different points but I don't laugh and I love it there but you know this kind of thing you know all I like and there's an absolute difference you know in this kind of attitude to the actions you style of life. All right. You know I would suggest that as my counterpoint to all of this kind of thing that it's not relevant to the feeling as a nation starts a culture and starts with the whole hobby to us offered life of our nation. You know don't forget please one thing after 1945 I came at I fix a
mix of East and West Germans. They are nearly 10 million Eastern Germans living in western Germany they have been absolved. If you view from Pomerania forms the eastern marshes of Germany then you've got the same kind of interchange of. People who are coming from Lower Saxony who lived in Saxony who lived in in Pomerania in buy and board and make them bargain for this. I think there was a kind of mass exodus from the east to the west from the West was East or those kind of things and so I think that is not prevented and anymore it doesn't mean this you know and then if you take culture as such if you take I know as we can we can all of the East and you know you German universities where there is cunt there is Hagar. So it's good to see a shooter. There's Latin it's they has you could feel as off as the great musicians are that is German culture takes all these Germans while you are you know they have just got caught. Come come some he said and I've just come home thanks to me I know you did I
am doing Yeah you're good I wasn't sure dollars you know and I was a bit but Beethoven comes from Bonn if you're a doctor you heard the rapping doctor yes. Historically and I think when you when one talks deals with the German people I mean the history weighs very heavily on the German people. Oh god tentative. The fact remains that the German national state there came out of the east Pascha. Yeah and so now there are the west the German nationalism and then followed by German chauvinism. You came out of the east not out of the West. The question arises therefore And it's a very serious question. In which part of Germany is that national feeling most alive is alive I know that five or more million refugees came to West Germany. It brought with them their own culture of their own. But where is the
drive. German nationals most of today Western Germany or Eastern. When I tell you it's a very important question because you know it might be important for the things to come this rollout you know here I would say the Eastern regimes a communist regime ever so hard to develop and that's united there were some a new national feeling of the DDR our public our system of regime our future you know the new perspectives they all may come from us. We are historically history's on our side and not this kind of decadence system of the West Well that is one part they trial is very hot. I would like to suggest you from the experience I have I have a live experience and it's not taken in by the new generation and by some elitism. Definitely not. He sees it that New Dimensions new times and I think you know if you if you analyze the fact the public of Germany with the national feeling there's of course this feeling had to go to Germany this new elements after 45 but I would suggest of course that there's a new dimension here too that is you hope and you know in this
kind of elements and your problems will send us home allusion. We are going into the third revolution the electonic human etiquette evolution you know and then was this New York being this as the new European perspectives I think all of this. Let's give it it is a further part of Germany. You don't have any kind I would say off base of a chauvinist pig nationalism for the Republic of Germany. Quite You know this NPD business would be a lunatic isolated lunatic fringe business on the perfidy of our society. They will come into Parliament of course. Next time 69 they helping in Parliament 49 people have forgotten a front garden so the leader of the he was in Parliament please come back again. What does it mean. Nothing because 90 percent of the nation is consolidated in the Democratic Party and failed the public so that I mean this kind of emergency official internationalism is absolutely impossible according to if you love us a piece of our own styles factor and only please do not succeed to imbue a kind of chauvinist ignition isn't another communist
Crocker Snow Reports From Germany
M.S. Chandler
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Crocker Snow Reports for Germany is a series of reports and dicusssions about West German news and culture.
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Chicago: “Crocker Snow Reports From Germany; M.S. Chandler,” WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC, accessed October 16, 2019,
MLA: “Crocker Snow Reports From Germany; M.S. Chandler.” WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Web. October 16, 2019. <>.
APA: Crocker Snow Reports From Germany; M.S. Chandler. Boston, MA: WGBH, American Archive of Public Broadcasting (WGBH and the Library of Congress), Boston, MA and Washington, DC. Retrieved from