Africans in America; 101; The Terrible Transformation; Interview with Barry Unsworth, Author, "The Sacred Hunger"

thank you the new world was a mound of gold and that the portuguese and spanish and already gotten there as far as trade and commerce we're concerned and i think for the english in the seventeenth century at the main problem with breaking through breaking monopolies doug i'm getting a corner on the trade it was made with commercial that was a romantic industry feeling and in england about the botany world and also series about the noble savage and eighty eight the year the band of benefits and influences of nature and so on that shakespeare as this is a subject these days and that in attempts to book tour for the men who are two went their lives and what one reality many whatever literary and commercial under so the first extended to be more like iraq to collect petition anything else was why i as i understand it

the economy was expanding and in the sixties andy pettitte when we went still on one of the first nighttime part that we research center became we were far behind the spanish in strength and in my time a strengthened hand and an end prosperity that the spanish have enormous wealth coming from a from a coalition that in central america and south america and but tom harkin the red queen elizabeth flushed sort of towards the end of the sixteenth century this was changing already and from that point onwards for march fifteen a diesel which was a gradual really rather rapid expansion and consequently about the need for for for markets and especially of course because some would of the colonists who were wonderful a wonderful readymade market is only to protect the trade and this and corporate went with a system of tyrants and it was if it was so it

was a wonderful opportunity i think it meant that time and at the time i have to say yes yes changing a bunch of paul d the system beating the the economics at the time of what's called my country just wasn't it under this man really that this was a belief that if you could establish ahead yemeni or try to get money and if you can protect out and if you could exclude rivals by protective tariffs that there's a fact of having this sort of trade would increase the color of the country with the maritime shipbuilding banking or financial services all whole industries wood wood wood would expand correspondingly this is of of proved to be false but then in

the long term object to all those years was to defeat was to defeat from st francis had made an mba oath both in the colonial show and in and in terms of pollen and the idea of cutting away from france's colonial roots she would then into begin to wither away a pall would be kind but she wouldn't to have the exercise and now you're welcome the reality is doing because who's was writing very harsh us understand that the dream and the reality and dreams or utopian initially an idea of lovable the vocal of colon is without a widow to caution without the

oppression of going without hierarchical polished church where each month with the country unequal was a lot of idealism i think in the moment in the other settlements in the new world a lot of autism which it didn't get this done much to test over a lot of experience on the way we get that that means he set another record when he was a kid plymouth much in it with an eye on the main chance i suppose he was the first english slave trade it was the first that forces and the documentation and he brought back he made a successful slaving ship but to work to west africa and

that he brought back or two hundred slaves he people can to cut it and know he i think he made the usual slave wrong and returned home in triumph with it with a very valuable carlos you can spice in rome and the approach of the caribbean he tried it twice again that each time he was less successful but he was i think he represented i mean he's called a pirate on the one hand when the spanish this spanish monopoly but i think it was he was set in train this service proceed but that of course naturally and i think this is not quite sure the day and fifteen at something called me this was a very small scale enterprise and it was it was expanded to be enormously in the century for you i'm taking the eighteenth century when it became really big business at that time was

just individuals who had been a sudden enterprise initiative for food you acted independently on on a small scale but it was the beginning of a long and terrible process with enormous profit to be made in those days because of the things that they brought that won't work where luxury goods at the time of the things it's a john hawkins returns with you know whether were enormously and viable in and fished out this well he would he would he would have had to have a fairly fair proportion of the prophet and i think that he was he was encouraged by the crowd by the by the queen the shia or the crown and when it wanted to push push and the bulk of it

of the prophet but that still left quite a lot and i think the coalition a lot of money for hawkins' in it and you really kept on trying trying and subsequently i think of michigan and fought us come on lonely ahmad but against yamato the defeat of the spanish fleet that set up to invade congress are challenging he was to let them in well i guess of years and then moments of history in which won power is declining dionne the portuguese were the first to flee and i think very early in the fifteenth century the portuguese letters and they established faux as the spanish added to a long time in west africa at his troops towards

a juvenile niger but at the time hawkins was beginning to two years it will produce a way were already declining force so that was a i think there was i got there was an opening there was there was a vacuum and the search room for a new paul a big opportunity for him and half cocked a lot time and rather than only on the margins you on the edge of the center of this mainstream slaving for help you know well there are leaving the

great century for this was literally a team three the take a port like liverpool the beginning of the eighteenth century was a very not much more than a fishing village by the end of the eighteenth century was one of the great atlantic ports party the greatest sight hundred years that have happened and even less it happened not by johnson the temple but the fact is that really life with brutal on monday the means of those there was no kind of safety net watch it very hard for us today to imagine a society in which there is that apart from private charity that was a sudden private charter network but apart from that there was no safety net at all so that people faced the direst poverty and destitution and underfunded and i think

yes and because they went through every aspect of all of life and society and the middle classes maybe you see that you see that the fullest expression of that he really in the end and the system will tell you that during the height of the slave trade an amendment late to engage in session they didn't the must have been about two hundred dr joel punishable by death even down to stealing a few shillings so last night that so that on the republican situations which were attended and were occasions for feasting and then holiday on the public option and then gene was a cheap and a lot of people found solace in that or that the rate of alcoholism which was hardly you know it was a time where when human life was often reduced to two to a very basic level and especially with a with immigration in coming by political a slave

port i know best of the irish immigration to the irish in very large numbers added to that this year the streets were a lit enclave money and money in winter and altogether the impression one gets of others of us a very very very uncomfortable side no anesthetics of course a narrower and still a medical science student at the family superstitions state to develop and so all things considered it was a very very brutal way now as internships

what they were leaving was a kind of life and we've just you know i've just been talking about the war they went to i suppose was in another that are totally unknown future about a future in which at least there was the prospect that opportunity something something that offered something more must have been a desperate choice to be made who left everything behind and i think the intention dentures were for a fixed term of the us all this it wasn't anything comparable with with slavery there were not chuckles in any sense but something of that feeling of desperation must have possessed the monday monday and when they set out they really have

that's less true to i think it's it's a feeling that someone somehow that is a way of life that that could be better for herself a watch to watch children after all your wallet while low end to the rural poll well a lot of the dangers of a jeweler europe and i think that at this particular time when local law or even worse off than the political environment and desperate and because there wasn't opposed to meeting a central portion of the enclosure the inclusion of land and the landlords and closed it and so a lot of the common ground a lot of the grazing rights work were lost to the traditional and social agriculture right we lost to the two neighboring

pull out with visual to get full of destitution and near starvation and a lot of the people who who were immigrated to wendt as indentured servants were leaving from the kind of not the kind of background in the actual mechanics of this ha and maybe it's hard purchasing procedures it it was it was a very sort of diverse operationally and the time initially i think the i think the levy the heart of the matter really is in his indian rising tide isn't the rising consumption of tea and coffee

of ongoing comes down to the us in the way that in the end the course of the eighteenth century coffeehouses london coffee houses you have proliferated and what a part of an enormous ship audience in jerusalem by seven hundred a coffeehouse only in london and at the new combination of all of india chicken from china from india he became an immensely popular drink but it was that it needed sugar and it needed more more sugar soda consumption of sugar consumption went up by aol for four five and there was an enormous increase in consumption and this in order to produce show about a mascot one show is a labor intensive crop you have to have a label called job you needed that you needed a lot of

labor maybe the indentured award and come anywhere near to meeting the the indians who had been taken from former spanish were dying out what's it with what would that were decimated by disease and and also by the conditions of the work showed the africans and african continent presented open a new market of course you know people believe abortion the very densely populated so lee indeed a rise in the rise in saving correspondent obviously with the demand for for an hour and also to buckle from from the chesapeake and from the american cornish and so obviously when the dumont replied that there was an immediate response to perform all very sort of ventures some quite small and they would buy a share my by a tense sure it some quite small

trees that might put the money in the mine invested to power on party would be dealing in many in the situation or schip then gradually as the demand for labor grew the operations began more systematic hundred bishops called invisible ships were we're going to take about two hundred and fifty slaves was the average number and they stay for the triangular path the famous that kind of a trade from memphis leave it was to him in west africa to buy this should be taking the trade good for me into the bombing not just the chief in egypt a good manners beads hats with others in brightly colored cotton kettles

knives and most that that particular emotions underlying saves along and that is shipping slaves to the economy in order to go on official which is called middle passage all to use a job with the proceeds of the of the options buying local produce especially to buckle well or sugar or wrong all sorts of commodity be back to full bristol doesn't go away or the simple was a london and selling it at an exchange weight fetched record prices certainly it was a very profitable trade because you have profited each point the way that he conducted the trade along the coast of africa was also fairly various day and they couldn't go in because you do you know they want a quick to draw to venture into the interior

basically what they did they announced their arrival they waited they start off in the ownership and they waited for the local traders to supply them with the slaves and the local traders would either mulatto or african daughter had already been a slave trade before there was some there was a kind of domestic slave he was chattel slavery was people were enslaved as a result of debt all prisoners of war and today that he says could achieve positions of of of trust in particular that they weren't there weren't subordinated and made into tunisia ok so the event that there was already been made system all all all striving already an already established on the youth they were dumb sometimes also go out the requests and in their long will kill your record and they would trade

in london maybe fifty miles snow or hardly not much further established in underworld more contractors who were local traders they were sometimes british there was one in particular called owen nicholas owen who died and who know they made that they were the middlemen between the interior on the ship's owner what they didn't do what we think the slave factors were generally small independent traders who would establish a trading post on on a reversal in and it would have connections with the tribes of the interior who would and capture slaves usually the slaves were kept in the course of the civil wars which were actually four minted very often by either by de

facto by by others well under these says these captives would be marched down to the trading post sometimes hundreds of miles and so there was a it was a mortality rate on the march which doesn't figure in the statistics for that for that for the death of the ships that was in the mortality involved in the slave trade those reaching out over a much wider area than we we could ever conceive i think an additional figures for it but they were brought down to the trading post and then the factory would have to that bargain with them in what were called country botch levees weren't just theoretical rate of exchange you that's a bottom line and the country by which was so much and the shift bar was was more sue you keep his bleep the profit of the fact that would be in the difference between what he had to pay in income to boston to lead to the tribesmen who brought a slave and what he could get when he

took this saves himself to the ships on that was that was the margin of its profit but at each point you have to have a bargain because when he took the same justices greeted when he took to the people to the ship's thirty two and you had to know very well watch how many bars and the boston and each of you if you had a string of beads or if you have a day of talks or if you had a case of muskets you have to know how many barges was that meant to abbas would translated into into into tons of goods and if what you added all the time so i'm like but but a profit made from a factory in their differences so this is a fairly small scale operation on the larger scale operations were carried out unfortunately established by ollie and in colonial dollars

alone the coastal west and center of west africa i'm there were so big washington near or near the rivers where they will meet will yes the effort was made vulnerable to our rivers and her sons and daughters were drained away from now through these veins of them out to the open sea and these were people who had come along and lived and indian food forest in thick forest and rain forest a lot of a lot of them and they came to the first time ever to the open when they came

out from the river miles anthem saw the sea and they'd never seen the sea before so this was a tremendously traumatic experience in any case having survived the terrible rigors of the journey and the hardships and the gpa treatment of the bicoastal michael from the first then brought out and his terrifying open open ocean street and it shipped tons was the official permission or wartime england there were quite a lot of people involved i mean that from the point at which a slave was captured someone at say four hundred or five hundred miles from the sea to the point at which the slave trade in bristol on a vocal drank a glass of wine that was a direct result of the job of the ultimate so much improv they get turned into transactions and the complexities of trade and the messy some of misery that it represents huge enormous

enormous know the rivers that that was where you know the way in which they could penetrate they weren't alone and they weren't trying to sell the colonies there were only trying to trade in that they're that wasn't an imperial mission of the point about all it it was truly profit motive or disciplined among so this i think this applies to european it doesn't i don't think it applies to these african middlemen who weren't who were accustomed to the climate and

who had their own who often they call for the army to retain a symptom but the europeans were fighting that we're running our age because the europeans die like flies that time the average expectations three or four years how to make money on the court because they knew that and how much time so in that sense of course they would they were trapped and most of them a lot of them had finance the enterprise by borrowing the fed put themselves in that there would not be to go back without without making money with live go back to nowhere for them to go and days and they were locked or milk or not the situation that we're the victims and it was obviously the slave trade has been equipped us it was it was and it was a disgraceful to pray for jj watt for many of those within it and this includes also the sale of the semen on the slave ships when you when you look at their

life into whether we're coming from on you can see there where they were caught in the web of the system one held and died just a decimal crews were much higher than the decimal a slave to mortality rates of the scene behind most slaves were put money i'm from escalation in the us senate and again we're talking about this in a county that scenario or and conditions in the past it was mostly us there would be maybe twenty five

c one of the ship's officers that might've been a crew of thirty and these thirty hacked too cocoa maybe three hundred who were aware of being abducted and when you were were desperate and who were dangerous because they were risky waiting to see an opportunity that was little foot to to rebel and to take over the ship and killed the crew another that that happens fairly frequently you have this could be contained which vices to fear so they would have they would have the colonnade guns or constantly trained over the years over the main been the main deck from the quarter deck they would have a constant you know brutalized haitian

short of inflicting creeping down the jobs for all this commercial reasons and so it was a busy with us where your fear and then because a slave type of mail slave and in good condition unopened spirit i'm talking about issues about seventeen sixties and seventies what's that shows something like fifty pounds and that kingston market and there's a lot of money a month and then a man in those days could live quite well for a fifty pound for yet you wouldn't you wouldn't go short very much of iffy and fifty particular vessels along my joe's very important as many as possible and you know we're at the very school gym floor fight understand that the work that was given to a more humane and they thought it better to ship fewest of a more humane and in relatively speaking it was two flavors but there's a ship fuel saving and thunder for most of life there was another school of thought a more brutal kind which

forty two crowded crowded the day their ship someone died but you'd still do better and have more than those this went up this winter in this window on monday on that the horrors of the middle passage you've been very graphically describe the limit on tuesday they they suffered the most when the weather was bad because then they couldn't get up on deck they couldn't couldn't be washed down that the courts could be changed so after week with the year with a with the hatches buttoned down you can imagine dr john newton who's sleeping skipper of the time and who who could who were was the captain of the ship that saved from to form a kind of a running so at seventeen fifty two the company

yes it was a diagram produced to assure and in seventy nine before and you watch they call and the on westminster had very very very appointed a commission to go into the selected because by then by the light at the end of that century the the mood for abolition was gaining strength of the opening was changing sympathies were changing and so they had this the commission in which they got all sorts of evidence from also people from skip factors from the coast for more for more fossil fuels to see themselves and they compile vision documents and a political mission and one of them is a diagram of a slave ship showing precisely how the slaves themselves were washed out how they how they were placed for the voyage when they were below deck so between decks they were to do that on

this particular ship which is fairly typical there are two levels one above the other on either side of the ship with a central passageway and i had about eighteen inches headroom less than two feet and rome so they could neither they could neither couldn't sit and because they were now called they could really change position very cynical without hurting themselves or all their companions so the you went away to withdraw from the world that look at the low for a long period you know it was it was it must have been a nightmare and john newton the savings get that i was mentioning before who subsequently gave up the trade under that provided evidence for this commission because you became converted he became a christian called out and at the end of his life as a priest there's a little bit of the church of england and in the new evidence to get it he describes how

in the moment in the mornings after they steal the end of page about whether when they could finally get down they would find ode to monaco together one dead and one living is quite a common experience and i think that really food for in terms of the hell else almost an engineer as anyone of a conflict into it wang yes they are and this was this was regarded as a very very dangerous times and because of one refused to repeal it would follow suit that would be that would die they already died in large numbers sometimes from what to what are called

fixed melancholy it ended in the eighteenth century temple fixed melancholy which was the last of the desirability and i just they just died i don't understand that depend on eating particular de jess died and some people are much more prone to the banality of evil we're particularly prone to this sort of mountain west the people it didn't go there the go code coaster any want this was temperamentally was what would one of the aspects of mission one of the ways in which they tried to bring gas autonomy they couldn't they couldn't jump overboard but i just thompson's dozens and so in order to discourage this example from spreading they would that they would force a slave to eat they would tie beating him or putting on some skewers all

toward torturing him in some way in order to in order to break him and make him eat or they would force feed him by and by forcing open his georgian unmanned and putting an unforeseen food into him the veneer of the idea i think that was that of the slave cannot be allowed to die by his own for by zone would unintentionally he he cannot be allowed to divulge that may heat he must if he's going to die just be at the hands off his captors so that in that case he does and he doesnt spread a danish example whether one has to remember that this was all down to profit from it was just money and there was no more care of them that would've been for horses all sorts of potatoes i think at this particular period at that and it was it was just a very volatile cargo talk to be happening now and safeguarded as much last

portable and so even even god fearing and relatively humane slaving captains would use bruges on repulsion change location and of course the savage ok savage beatings or a small group of captains would shoot dont many cases recorded of africans into being beaten to death with us yes i was a yes because that exact and there was that and there was always an ambivalent feeling the most of it because those pithy the slave us they knew and at one level because these were human beings because there were all these detainee human beings they will they knew it in the same image made in the same image dissent on the world into profit

and those two concept could couldn't all this to be really reconcile and they never were reconciled it was just i think the big issue the two main the sense of a commodity of these people were simply suppressed for the sake of go on the shocking thing is that definitive that human beings are able indefinitely and in that talk about sentient they're able to suppress that the judging from the promptings of that of the common humanity hundred call it something else or to deny it for the sake of making or fiction i suspect that nothing much has changed and where i think it's too comforting and console in the sink that this was a distant regrettable episode closed off in the past and that these things you know what we can and gentler way more submission i think if you look at the world

of the way human beings are continue to be exploited it and if you look at the language in which this is justified you find that repetition joe klein yes always and the relationship between sailors and say it's needed as hire foreign ship there was some captains who were very good in that way and so with liverpool captain and lemons grow captive crow

and who was probable she was that he brought to carlos lage back into the pool without a single mortality and he studied the diet and he and he gave them exercise et to them gently he didn't he didn't keep them in iran a short time and the women and the children that he was a model saving captain and it seems that there were on trips like that in which in mortality was almost nil nil this depended on the way there which each of course to a large extent and also on homework i remember being struck when i was searching for my novel on to read about how when food run short it was just it was the crew who

would be put on short russian jew rather than as slaves on on the basis that as we said that slaves was money and seamen were not in fact once the semen once the slaves had been sold at auction on the return trip the vivid and the crews were caught and that the ship could be brought back by half the crew so they were basically totally expendable of course if they died you saved on the wages the wages rose parade retrospectively so this accounts for a lot of the mortality among them on the scene but i remember reading that so there were times when the the slaves gave the crew portrait some of the portions of their rice the rice is a staple food to the monument and there were cases in which the the native africans would actually gives songs that i sing in charity to the very man all

island unsafe women in some cases beaten them and kicked them and brutalized them in all kinds of ways amazing source of great touching kind of charity and i suppose i don't know but i suppose the most have been in many cases some degree of reciprocal relations between the crew on the sleigh there was always see a book that they weren't in clinical they were in the same boat actually this is home but there seems to be quite a lot of controversy about how important the capital in flow from the slave trade was for the british economy but the deed the oldest could afford it remains

keep school of thoughts still maintains that the main functions of capital than when tip a good way to fund the industrial revolution britain which came earlier than anywhere else and had a gracious need for capital investment fortunes were made and an end to the trade and what certainly did happen was a tremendous expansion all while hold the sword financial infrastructure of the states considers a whole the development of love and all credit banking and investment companies insure that all up for us business of funding core enormously engaging piece

i think in the course of a century to the fact that going going back a little bit to two to two hundred and then they'd be on the coastal people of west africa when directly and dealing with the ship since flies just just in gaming too slow there were those who weren't all that time seeking to expand trade not loyal wouldn't take itself and that's some powerful states and rose in the course of the eighteenth and nineteenth century looked to be a shanty who whoosh paul was based on on on all watch and whose whole economic mode of being which derived from the slave trade and who created enormous problems and two through two ratings you through warfare because these people became so powerful

that the image of the coastal trading people's began to inform closer links with the with them british hundred and national dish the slave traders from such a forum and the victim of a whistle and a defensive pact and this was the basis for what soaks it became the colonial movement and that was that was that was a base created through lands to defensive lines through to the expansions of a dangerous centralized as certain territorial basis which was the beginning of the of the colonialist bunch of the nineties surge shutting this was a very very important immediate results in addition to the financial results but i haven't so much knowledge of the actual the degree to which those at the influx of capital influenced the

course of of if it does show the adoption revolution and with it yes oh yes i think shon told on total destruction was caused by the slave trade in the interior and local industries were either damaged or completely destroyed trade goods became interview supplied indeed the issues apply what you hoped to when bin laden created me to supplying for the need grew supplies crew and then you needed you needed arms both too to get safe to try to protect yourself against the encroaching slicks dreadful

so that you know this was also an expanding industry so there's this when to intervene to an old in all kinds of ways and it was it was ruinous at ways it was ruinous for the interior of africa of view because africa is so densely podium the area north from the gold coast in from london and and interviewed it was so it was so densely populated that hi cindy sheehan what is now gonna come to worry about fifteen it might well have been fifty thousand slaves yeah were taken out on top of even more more pumped much more i've forgotten figures now but pm and that is the depopulation could stand it and so what seems to be received wisdom now is that it didn't have damaging effects and unbeknownst to the public

but certainly it turned the fabric of what was seriously damaged you they're helping terrorists it was that benefits worked for in the department agreed to get permission all right yes i'm glad this was liza levy giuliani once justified to know you strike through the year the eighteenth century into the nineteenth century was a cardinals tended to face that that without this trade not only would get the fuel profits neither noa could be less it an interesting development what that the traditional skills to ship the shipyards not only the trade as a training school for savers but isn't that a

manufacturing base for children oh but this would be cac depleted is the trade watch and maintained it was an argument of expediency there was no whenever any moral arguments was no and i thought a moral aspect of slavery is concerned in eighteenth century both the church and the parliament had nothing much to say that all of that was that it was lawful it was a lawful trade totally legitimate totally approved it was a that was regarded as a purely normal that one should a man should seek to increase in his stock of caught in any way possible and this is a byproduct there was a there was the impetus of the stimulus too local trade and manufacturing trade and also to shipbuilding and so it's about the city's well these were the audience that we use and also the art of course but if we didn't if we

didn't sell arms if we didn't sell muskets to them someone else would and we would simply is that we would sometimes the train and then the further arguments which came when a washington post within the racist elements that they are the venue line of art was that it's all right to do this because these people after all are in syria the net then it to the beast they overtook their lives miserable lives and riddled with superstition and fear when doing a much in favor by taking when i'm putting trains on them and taking two different different country making them well sue the language the language of racism too early you begin to hear as the position of the slivers was weak weekend of years and i think this is true so the defensive rhetoric that the defense of that it was a racist rhetoric in order to justify or to cling on to it to a privilege and that was actually already

declining this week the moment you just get to say it in one word eerie to hear and see every been the same move i think the last slave ships a lot of important at making hundreds

and it undermined the last legal collision course that went on trading illegally right to the nineteenth century and the bottom of the father was in an intimidating hundred and five which established british naval ship fantasy four hundred years it's are these two b's two things may not be legal they may but i mean i think that the as the slave trade as it fit as it has it has its importance faded lead on to an appendage some sort of expansion in the whole european states and france as well and it's pay cut which would which was leaked and imperialism imperial movement it was it was it was it was a battle for ocho petry a mishmash succeeded be a literary than one of those

the patients won't get the dvds of the beach this starts with john hawkins and ends let's say wait for the abolition of slavery in the parliament in nineteen thirty three that's a long long as the spine of of years and i am it would be good because and to think that this was part of this was of the civilizing procession and that through the course of inflicting so much suffering on our fellow human beings and in the end we sick and ourselves with it and i decided to give that it was wrong and we would turn over a new leaf or not

matter but it seems that this wasn't the case that would be the general belief i think is the beginning the importance of the cabinet in july trade was already declining that towards the end of the nineteenth century that the system of protected dairy prices and it wasn't working that there was demand for sugar exceeding supply than there were all kinds of ways in which people can get shallow more more cheaply and so part of this is disputed but this is i think of the general view in fact be the movement for hubble mission coincided with with the decline in economic importance of the cabbage picture so it's not really possible and look at it after such after four centuries it's not really possible to look to god abolition to regard humanitarian one as as a cousin composer an adequate response a corrective to warm up to what we're left with

if this is simply a sense of what of what human beings are capable of doing when day when the issue for for substantial profits to be made and it's like that in a way scientists like a loss of innocence i suppose that and continues and in a curious way that corresponds to the experience of the new world which was and also a loss of innocence there's a book that the idealism that involved in it the romantic notions that were held in britain about the new world and about the wonders of needy the fabled from the stories dna idea the more than that though the weird and wonderful properties of these people who lived then and then he hopes and aspirations of the circus and even genuinely

utopianism that off of all of the early settlers i think in the face of harsh experience in the face of the band the physical hardships that have to do with the climate hostile hostile people's a need to establish a way of life in the wilderness with all about involves an innocence that represents a kind of loss of innocence too and so it may be that we could say that runs parallel to the whole experience all of the slave trade but i think it's also must say too to suggest the slave trade as it has come to an end and that it continues to thrive here and there throughout the world and in one form or another i don't

know oh ok it tries it doesn't sting but if you were if you try to accommodate to its method that makes a very bad smell the british yeah i think a good humoured accused the spanish gp cruel and still continue to do so i think in one and maybe it's true that there is a certain kind of promises and really away from a certain kind of sense in which that the spanish tradition is how's how's an element of cruelty and i don't necessarily mean inflicting in the

infection of cruelty but just a week spanish painting for example didi that there's a record deal which didn't do solve for many issues of social agenda were gentle watercolors overall landscape radiation to a landscaper noted that that's all that's holding the assad regime ever really done in panama by lodges clustered but anyway that's important point i think that the spanish were gardeners a school but there were criticizing the early days for a father depredations into the into the new world and this was sort of a result of celebrate sean anything else to the spanish have already establish a monopoly they were extremely popular would treasure ship spanish treasure got into a passing regularly through to the mediterranean back to back to spain

i suppose the summer and warm sleeping bag because traders had to come in and try to take over ground it encountered accept the same sort of necessities exact same kind of imperatives that the would be involved in any case in now in trying to establish trading posts and capture human beings are seldom i don't think that there was any difference in the methods it's due to the criticism so one job when know when the monopoly was broken yes the euro socialist think washington was a study getting a piece of the trade than disapproval spanish politicians it really dissolve very quickly stories

it's howard's that i'm staring that european can't help people in the us first dates those strange strange backward of a feeling in the end of course as we as we long to before that that what it was possible to have to distance strands of sensibility one canceling out the other without any apparent force or forceful oh without it crippling or disabling the people and without it preventing him from korea conducting the profits i don't know whether it was quite calm one more reason to confront ford

forty men involved in this tried to be god fearing devout they would regard themselves as good men they would in some cases have church have sort of services aboard ship and sing hymns to conduct a drone strike from the bible on sunday but it didn't seem incompatible with their are putting some screws on their own people but other times it seems that human beings are infinitely people of of nursing origin of harboring incompatible notion show without it in promoting them too much without digging into feeling too much with the main main sphere of action that they're following this is the only explanation i think that they can possibly before officer because on a rational assessment know i'm reminded me of the most famous case of the slave ship is all in the seventeen seventies which

show was making for jamaica with a cargo of slaves and then run into bad weather and that was six years aboard the ship and the young the captain decided that it would be a better more profitable more sensible reasonable to through the six level of the board while it was still alive because if they were thrown overboard with reasonable caution a living they would be inundated they could tame insurers is that they died aboard ship a quick visit was called natural causes but it's a captain could think of a good reason for throwing more than he and maintain that were there was a shortage of water which isn't true when they killed two of the ward when the case came to court there was never any question of inhumanity to my mom's in him it was no question of murder there was no question of any kind of crime that shoulder was simply a question of

insurance was on a lot of the decisions were that was there was another disappointing seventeen there was never any discussion of that among the case was discussed on one insurance jobs and that seemed to me to indicate pretty clearly how how in practice