Ideas; Gerald Tannenbaum On China

This is ideas and I'm Frank Fitzmaurice on tonight's program. An American looks at China. For the next 30 minutes we'll hear a talk by Gerald tan and Bob who spent many years on mainland China as director of armed forces radio during the Second World War. The reporter for tonight's program is National Public Radio's Mike Waters. China a land of mysteries a people perceive through a glass darkly. Even today when Westerners travel more freely than once over imagined China remains beyond the understanding of many journaled time bomb is one American who knows the country very well. He's a former advertising executive from Chicago and was vice director of the Armed Forces Radio Service in China during World War Two

lived in the People's Republic of China for 25 years from 1946 through 1951. He was director of the China Welfare Institute existed in the China industrial co-operative movement and he founded one of Shanghai's largest maternity and child care hospitals. He's editor of New China and was a consultant on in the Zs documentary The propensity. And on CBS's Shangaan N-bomb has been touring this country since 1972 conducting lectures and seminars on China. Some background in 1971 Chinese defense minister Lim was killed in a plane crash in China after attempting to overthrow and assassinate Chairman Mao Zedong. Up until this attempted coup had been the

designated successor of Chairman Mao is treason cause great common in the West as well as in China and it was months before the official story was released to the press. Statements began to come out of China that Lindh was a two faced man unable to give up his underhanded nature. A man opposed to the revolutionary life of months went on a purge of women and villains was then launched a new ideological drive. Now if you are out of favor in China you may be linked to an historic enemy of Maoist philosophy. In the case of NPR it was the Chinese philosopher Confucius. Both figures were accused of attempting to restore the whole regimes of their day. An editorial and the Communist Party theoretical journal warned that those who didn't take part in the criticism Olympiakos and Confucius could be accused of revisionism and bullies were thoughts. Now speaking at Iowa State University his remarks were recorded by public station.

Mr. Thomas I like to talk a little bit about the meaning of criticism of Confucius. Some people are a little confused by that. Over here they want to know why are they criticizing two men that are dead. One for 2000 years and the other one for well since 1971. They're trying to figure out what relevance does this have for it's a DAY TO DAY's China. I think it's it's obvious there must have been some kind of threat there. They wouldn't be making so much noise about it. In other words they feel that there was a socialist system in China therefore they have to stand up and defend it. But in order to stand up and defend you have to understand what they're criticizing. So this is

the. The basis for this movement to criticize them. I think first there are two myths about Confucius that I would like to dispel if I can. Many people here when I go talking around the country they insist that Confucianism is a religion. It's true it's permeated Chinese life for 2000 years but it's never something that people worship. Another. Myth that people have here is that Confucius has always been revered in China. He's revered as the state of China and that also is not not exactly true. There's a long historical record of Confucius putting forth his ideas but almost from the very moment that he started there were

also people who reacted very violently against him. Of course there's lots of material coming out in China today showing all the data that has been collected to demonstrate just this very point that fuchsias was was a counterattack from the moment I started to talk his philosophy of course. Confucius lived at a time when China was going through a period of very violent change. Two thousand two hundred years ago when he was in the process of changing from slavery to feudal states. The way they explain it now is that Confucius not many people think that computers represented feudalistic philosophy. But what they're showing now is that he was trying to defend the system of slavery in China and that there was another school of

thought which they call the school of thought which was opposing that which was trying to establish the feudal states in in China. This was the battle that they claim has been taking place through the centuries. And as a matter of fact if you look through the history of the revolutions in China you'll find that a lot of them were motivated by anti Confucian feelings. Time after time in the present uprisings they would burn Confucian temples or destroy his works because they felt he represented the oppressing class in China. And also for example during the 1930s when John started his new life movement which many people characterize as a neo fascist movement in China the basis of it is for his own people was concerned was a Confucian philosophical thought.

And at that time there were many intellectuals in China that up and opposed this wrote articles against it including my own chairman and wrote an article just castigating the whole movement as Confucian underpinnings. The reason that he had just very deep emotional feeling against Confucius that I think is very interesting is you go through history and you'll find that a lot of dynasties that are overthrown on the basis of anti Confucianism later on what it taught these same tenets of Confucianism in order to support themselves. Because one of the things that Confucius said. Was For example let the rumor be a rumor and the subject a subject. Let the father be a father and a son a son. In other words don't rock the boat.

Let things stay exactly as they are once they will get entrenched in the car. This is immutable. It's ordained by some heavenly force for something or other. Don't touch it. If you were made to suffering that's the way it should be that's your fate. This was the whole meaning of this thing. So it's no wonder that through the years there's been a great need for for fusion. It's very interesting to mung the women of China. There is also a deep feeling of Confucius because perhaps as many of you know. He always said the woman has to obey the husband has to be the son in other words the woman as a woman had no rights and she was only a piece of property and consequently. Women throughout the history of China

that are feeling about their uses so it's nothing new. The idea of criticizing Confucius taking him to task for what he perpetrated on the Chinese people for thousands of years. There's nothing new there. Now of course people can quote back things about having magnum in Athenian and being just and sincere and all this kind of business. But I think you have to hire allies for whom Confucius meant those things and I think it's rather obvious because for example Lucia was known as the Gorky of China one of the most famous writers and thinkers in Chinese history. Lipton in his writing and his political activity in the 1920s and 30s died 1936. He said that to Confucius the things that Confucius said. Were for the ruling class but that he had nothing to offer as far as the people of

China was concerned this was about you Asian nations. So it's not strange that there should be just criticism. Of course nothing but confusion and worst of us have this effect that is that those who have the intellect should lead and those who work with her hands are stupid and they should be. Of course aside from being contemptuous of people who work with her hands you know exactly contrary to everything that's been going on in China for the past hundred fifty years through the efforts of the Chinese people the lowest of the low workers in the presence of people who were dirt before was like lives in nothing. These were the people who have taken matters into their own hands with the leadership of the

Chinese Communist Party and changed China completely around whereas before it was a leading country did they have a unified country. One with a vibrant viable economy with people who are very proud of the fact that they can stand up in the world so to say that these people are stupid and are meant to be led. By those who happen to have a little bit of learning a little bit of intellect. Of course just completely reverse this whole history because Mao term all the people. And the people alone. Who are the makers of history who are the creators of all wealth and all knowledge. This this is the way you interpret so you can see that's taking a bottom and putting it on the top. President Bush was trying to reverse this all along. In other words Confucius represented retrogression. No matter how he was

used in his own time or after just time and those who opposed him represented progress represented have to make progress to go from slavery into feudalism of course was a step that was progressive for its time. And that's that's why they place such emphasis on the criticism of computers and Chinese people doing a lot of investigation a lot of research on this on this very question. To make clear there's just two line struggle that went on and all these thousands of years of Chinese history. But what does this have to do with Libya now. After all it seems farfetched doesn't it. Oh it seems that despite the fact that you had all this criticism both past and present confusions that Limpia out who was formerly the number two man who was going to chair a successor had long

long nurtured a worship of yours at least that's what we're told and we're also told that above his bed he had yet done some collector thing and he had to put the slogan restrain oneself to preserve the rights not restrain oneself. I meant that the course he was going to is number two he's going to be the number one. But apparently he was in a hurry and he was telling himself to take it you know to call it down. And then restore the rights of the prince that this had in connection with the Cultural Revolution. This movement of criticizing Confucius some foreign cars sitting in Hong Kong reading the tea leaves have said that it's the second Cultural Revolution and so forth which really is a bunch of nonsense

because the first revolution has been the first cultural revolution hasn't ended yet. So how can you have a second one. It's part of it's another stage of the Cultural Revolution. What the Chinese part was they would call the jungle rectification because there are certain attitudes that grew up out of this whole business of them that life in China on a wide scale. Therefore it has to be rectified. So it's part of the Cultural Revolution not another Cultural Revolution methods of course are different from the early stages of Cultural Revolution for example Joseph the New York Times are predicting that any moment you're going to have the hordes running through the streets again the Red Guards and all this kind of stuff none of which happened on a much more studious. Part of the studio bases where people are sitting down for us and our allies and the debate that's on this level. So I'll explain some of those that

they're trying to do this this is the nature of the movement that's seeking to understand where China has been in its history where it is now where it's going to go in the future and how to get to view things of trying to discuss and decide. And actually what I was saying when he said restore the rights was that he wanted he was really denying whatever success had been attained in the Cultural Revolution. This was his whole purpose. For a lot of things that he did after 1966 1967 and actually when you analyze some of the things that he was trying to do which we later found out that he was trying to do it was not much different than what the former number two man had been already deposed was not actually much different from what he was trying to do as far as China was concerned. For example return to individual ism. Rather than the collective

spirit that they're trying to cultivate among the Chinese. Return To use of the material incentives to to gain productive productivity rather than relying on a general political awareness among everybody and the involvement of everybody in what's going on in China. Because this was the conflicts that they were setting up a reliance for example on foreign assistance or foreign trade rather than relying on yourselves to overcome any difficulty that you have. These were the ideas that were in conflict with one another and in other words the way you look at it now in China like louche out she was trying to abandon all of the progress that it made it made as a result of the Cultural Revolution and was trying to abandon the road to socialism. The road to consolidating socialism I know returned to as they in their phrase the restoration of capitalism. Yes yes. What I was

trying to do under the cover of very revolutionary very ultra left slogans is the right slogans from the right are already completely discredited. She's line was so exposed they've been so criticized by millions of people in China that there was no possibility of using those same slogans to carry out his program. But under the guise of the extremely revolutionary and nobody could be more revolutionary and the people following him they were actually carrying out this other line. In Chinese parlance I know it sounds very peculiar but in Chinese parlance it was actually said in phraseology but right in essence that was what they were called. Also leaders in every sense of the word. I remember 68 69 67 and already

started an almost unbelievable occasion. I mean it was really hard to believe. For example it was the man let alone from every time you got to say something in a meeting it had to with chamomile long life three times and then you have to have everlasting good help. But. You know mother she wants a lot but aside from that for example people were told every time you get a morning you picture what you going to do that day. Then you go out and do it and then you come back in the evening and you look at the picture in your report what you've done. Well. You know the turn some people off and they couldn't figure out where it's coming from. And I remember at that time there

was a meeting of the Central Committee and one of the leading the main advisor to the committee coming out the culture revolution said this sounds like counter revolution doesn't sound like revolution at all it sounds like a revolution trying to stuff things down people's throat so they can't take it. Instead of respecting Jeremiah you're making it make them sick of it. This is this was the things that we heard you know but we couldn't quite figure out where this business is coming from. And of course the meantime limbo is saying that Chairman Mao's a genius since he was Chairman Mao's best pupil The inference was that he must be a genius too. After all he said. And this started as I say around the summer of 1967. This is mind you this was after they had what they call their seizure of power their January revolution

in China one day they changed many of the leaderships in the party and the Ministry of Government Administration in the cities and provinces in enterprises units and so forth there was a big big change over this. This all happened after that. So in other words people began to feel there was a rash of command as I'm now a tour leading up to this point. There was a great deal of discussion when any decision had to be made it had to be thoroughly discussed on all levels everybody was getting a chance to put their two cents in. If you didn't didn't like what was going on you're put up a box of big Kirk a news maker. You put it up in your unit or if you didn't didn't like that you went out in the street and you put it up so there was a great deal of ferment a great deal of really democratic activity going on there and suddenly there began people began to feel that there was a rash of commanders and that as orders were coming from the top and these orders were not to be

questioned and this was once again directly contrary to what Chairman Mao was saying to people. He was saying don't be slavish. Investigate everything. Make up your own mind. Don't let people tell you what to think. This was his instruction. Now we're getting all these orders. These commands coming in which they're not to be questioned so there were there was a feeling that something's wrong something's wrong. And people were questioning it trying to fight to figure out where it came from. I can remember in one unit which I was familiar with. This kind of command came down to this unit from the city government and some young people in there were absolutely furious because they could see that this particular decision was wrong for their unit wrong for their culture revolution everything and really they just like went out on strike. They said we're not going do anything until we settle this question they want to sit down and discuss and debate it right there and then while they were very courageous and actually that's what happened as a result of their activity. But

the whole people everybody in that unit had to sit down and discuss what this order is what it means whether it's correct or incorrect. Eventually the order had to be rescinded. Of course that's just one example that didn't happen and a lot of other places where people didn't have the courage to stand up and refute this kind of thing but not event. There was this. Just feeling that the all the gains of the Cultural Revolution are being washed away are being eroded away. Of course now later on it was all revealed that a lot of this came from Lindau personally and the people around him. I think it was when they went through his effect and everything that they found this confusion saying about restrain yourself and restore their rights and in his diary they found all kinds of notations about his great worship his great love of Confucius and. What they were saying when they exposed all this the Chinese people you see here is a man Confucius was dead two thousand two hundred years

yet he's still doing harm to the cause of the Chinese people is still giving us problems. And unless we understand who Confucius was what his position in society was what he was trying to say then we won't be alert for just this kind of thing happening again. Here's a prime example of Limby out who was an excellent student of Confucius betraying his party betraying his country and causing just this great mess. This is what they were saying to the Chinese people. This is the reason you have to set out and understand this thing so that you can understand really what's the correct road we're going all what's incorrect. That we don't want to think that this is what they're asking the Chinese people and so this was the lesson this was the lesson that they were trying to get the Chinese people to absorb.

Well now you say that's very good but sounds very abstract. How do you relate that to everyday life. Well like I say there are a lot of policies that are being changed in the. In daily life in China a lot of policy is being changed. And when you sit down with you first you study these materials you first go back you look at Confucius and you look at Libya and then also you got to look at the work in your organization or work in society as a whole. And for example. The whole system of higher education had been revamped during the Cultural Revolution. A lot of things were brought into question with students to get universities what kind of courses are you going to give. What kind of material is going to change in the courses all of these things were opened up for discussion during the Cultural Revolution and a great deal of change was made for example that there was more emphasis on enrolling people children boys and girls from the families of

workers and peasants and young soldiers from the People's Liberation Army as students in the university. You must understand that there are nearly not nearly enough university positions in China. It's still a treasure but still a very privileged thing to be able to go to university. So they want to make sure that they're putting this treasure in the hands of people that are reliable from their point of view. That is people who are going to use this and this knowledge just treasure for the Chinese people not for themselves. This is extremely important for them because they have experienced this thing after 1949 there were attempts made to enroll students from worker peasant backgrounds so forth and they get like remember 1958 enrolled great numbers of them. But somehow there was resistance inside the university against this kind of universities against this kind of thing and as soon as the time went on you found more and more

these people would disappear. They have one reason or another their cultural level was not high enough or they couldn't grasp just they couldn't rest but there was some reason to give it up. And what you found was a concentration of sons and daughters of higher officials or a higher army officers even the sons and daughters of the former which was eaten and so forth these were the people in the university. They kept a sprinkling of workers and peasants like we say or for a token worker present. Who's well. God was crucified. That might make it Herman Everett. Make your guns. Make sure that you guys get in the universe and stay there. Whatever help they need to live their culture. Know what I mean. Actually it was a policy area. An American looks at China. We've heard a talk by Gerald tenon Bob

the former director of Armed Forces Radio in mainland China during the Second World War. This program is made possible with funds provided by the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. We welcome your comments and suggestions on the series Our address is ideas. WGBH radio Boston 0 0 2 1 3 4. 4 ideas I'm Frank Fitzmaurice and this is the eastern Public Radio Network.