American Experience; John Brown's Holy War; Interview with historian Paul Finkelman, 1 of 5

so yes you know my looking you're the nominee and looking you can't find that spending that's easier for me to the cover up she will talk about the power of god i think the first thing to understand about the world john brown lives in his and it's a world in which politically slave holders run the country almost every president until eighteen fifty years a slave older they're only three non slaveholding presidents before eating fifty and they each have terms of either four years for the two adams is each chore van buren on the world john brown lives in this world that politically is dominated by the south by slave owners here are three non slaveholding presidents between eighteen hundred and eighteen fifty the chilly serve one term about congress is almost always dominated by southerners and buy southern politicians who hold leadership positions this is true even though in fact a majority of the house of representatives is from

the north but because of the nature of politics the democratic party has almost always in control and the majority of the democrats from the south so northern democrats team up with the huge block of southern democrats controlling congress and northern democrats are forced to do what southern democrats want slavery so when john brennan looks at the world he's in he's looking at a world where there are slave owners seeming to dominate everything and radical slave owners extremists on the issue of slavery are found in the cabinet people like jefferson davis' a secretary of war during the kansas troubles how it's impossible to find a northern or i'll be into slavery hughes who was ever in a position of power in washington one is a little more this is the fine ok ok yeah

no i'm sorry i'm sorry okay to me of but i figured i'd say this just a gimmick second throughout john brown's lifetime congress is almost always nominated by southern politicians the white house is either in control of southerners or in control of northerners should do what the south wants for political reasons everywhere john brown turns he sees what many northerners called the slave power conspiracy people like jefferson davis or secretary of war davis a secretary of war during the kansas troubles and so wherever you turn you see slavery in power how we want terrorists and so the constitution was a company with debt an agreement with hal it's a slave holders documented slave or is written into the constitution it's in the american political system and that's what brown is up against reaction

here brown withdraws from politics pretty early on in his life thinking that's the tile high he is initially awaited but the leading week the politician the country's henry clay as a slave owner had a few really are opposed to slavery then you can't be voting for people like henry clay for president there's really nowhere to turn on john brown is not a follower he's not a joiner so he doesn't get involved in the liberty party a pretty much stays out of politics when brown gets to kansas of course there is no democratic process in kansas the overwhelming majority of the settlers in kansas are from the free states they would like to have a free state government no slavery in kansas and p pierce administration and then later they began an administration china thrusts slavery down the throats of these northerners and so in john brown is involved in a similar lawrence kansas it's in part because the democratic

process simply doesn't work and one cents per ounce for filling the american revolution notion that you only fight a revolution when there are no others meanest for political change and in brown's case in kansas there is no political process that would allow the free stay majority to ban slavery your lawyer and he rather than i'm cyrus idea that's what this thaw so let's talk about our drowsiness this constitution itself to me all of the resources in yet brown agrees with garrison that brown agrees with william lloyd garrison that this is a pro slavery constitution and everything has to be done in a sense now whether brown believes the

constitution as other elite without a storm brown understands that the constitution is pro slavery things like the fugitive slave clause the three fifths clause which gives the south extra votes in congress for slaves whether he thinks the constitution can never be used to fight slavery is uncertain but he certainly realizes that the political system in the constitutional structure makes slavery ii entrenched in the book you certainly realize is that the political system in the constitutional structure entrenched slavery in the united states use it in new england trying to raise money when the dred scott decision comes down here the supreme court said congress can never been slavery in the territories so there's no democratic way of

ending slavery in kansas similarly dred scott says blacks can never be citizens of the united states john brown has probably the most the racial egalitarianism a an indy anti slavery movement certainly one of the most richly egalitarian man and so for him to the dred scott decision is simply the final nail in the coffin of obeying the constitution because blacks are written out of the constitution so it's a perception of this are such that we're founded on slavery through a lot to get good john john brown ones tells emerson that the two most important documents to be followed in the us or the declaration of independence in the bible he doesn't include the constitution as part of this because that is a document of political compromise has a document revealed with pro slavery compromises john brown annette

senses fighting the constitution he's fighting the us government but the us government is always in the hands of slave owners and their close friends i'm talking well as the continent's self you don't know you have the awesome power of the season that they sense of slavery sentiment ct an economic institution is the atf to real estate slaves are the second largest me back that up that's redundant falling real estate slaves are the largest single value of privately owned property united states slavery is very valuable slavery produces enormous wealth for the south an enormous wealth for the

country slavery is a very profitable institution slavery is never going to hand except by force because slave owners are making too much money on slaves and brown understands this route also understands the constitution doesn't allow the national government and slavery has to be done through a revolution or through force and some other way or through changing southerners minds and he knows that's actually helpless and a waste of time so again is spy and to go into the south and steel slaves as part of a guerilla war against an institution that in the end can only be destroyed by war or i guess i'm not talking about connor yeah well he had been equally seem to want to wantonly the southerners in this period always talk about confiscating and of course with king cotton there are the rest of the royal family of sugar tobacco and rice and the southerners are in one sense

right they are producing most of the exports for the united states they are generating vast wealth for themselves and for the country and so they say you may now make more on cotton and brown says i have to make war and slavery because only by making war and slavery is that and a bowl and that sense of course history proves you're right the difference between john brown indeed william tecumseh sherman is the chairman has a bigger army in sherman's of us better strategist and tactician and brown but in the end they're both doing the same thing attempting to liberate slaves with force of arms he's been talking about it rouses you know in some ways brown is kind of the quintessential american in his eighties he's very optimistic for this kind of brooding dark foreboding man he is nevertheless optimistic he's always

investing in things he gets about inland blooms he has schemes to sell wall had a higher profit for the wool producers the problem with brown is he's a lousy businessman and one of the reasons why he's a lousy businessman is because he's tenacious he gets an idea in his head and he will not let the idea go it has the scheme that he can bring walter new england and have a scientific method of grading it and essentially cut out some of the middlemen who he thinks is cheating the farmers in the end in the end he gets a disaster he say prices is better will much to minute prices the cheap will too low so of course the buyers come in and buy up on cheap oil and he's left with a more expensive better wall and the farmers in the end or hurt and most of his business ventures he's a failure although no one ever seems to think it is doing is dishonest and i don't think there's any evidence that he was he honestly believes in what he is doing it his problem is he so focused on his beliefs and his

fears and his paranoia is a time and that he can really be flexible he holds land too long when land booms break he continues to hold the land as the value of the land drops iowa during one land to me over extensive self he gets more credit he buys more land they can possibly ever deal with and again i guess you begin to see some of this later on in his life he overextend himself harpers ferry is tenacious harpers ferry will retreat just as he won't retreat from a landmark in or from all sales he will retreat at harpers ferry out there is a time the thread that ties brown together throughout his life in the way he be a very very stubborn so in terms of his business is interesting what's interesting is he's

just jumped in wholeheartedly and landing season one i don't think there's anything i don't think being gay commercial person or being a capitalist is any violation of protestant theology he is browsing for all accounts and the calvinist believe in saving they believe and working very hard to calvinist reinvest their profits were calvinists old believe it ostentatious living so they reinvest the money they make because they work hard brown is truly in that mode there's nothing wrong with credit per say there's nothing wrong with entrepreneurial ship even when brown goes to kansas he's investigating the possibility of buying the land as well as creating a free society in a society where there's no slavery and the racially

racially equal society so brown goes to kansas withhold bunch of age and it's one of the agendas as profit on land but the main agenda of course was ending slavery and creating racially egalitarian society his business practices tai and i think to the rest of his life and he's a man of his times i mean eydie down and start with your bio i repeated myself couple times today like the way said the first time a figure eight pick up your browns a man of his times he's involved in land speculation because almost every american who can be involved in land speculation seems to be speculating land and the eighteen thirties he's caught up in the catastrophe of the pac making thirty seven furst the total crisis of not enough money in circulation followed by too much money produced by fly by night banks and so there's hyperinflation

followed again by a disastrous crash and he gets caught up in that not being a shrewd not be nimble brownies and never in nimble manny's applaud or one of his sons says he doesn't want him to harpers ferry with brown because you said papa will delayed too long that's how he is he's very methodical he gets a plan he moves from plan to plan moved to move and he does that in his business dealings you can do that in a rapidly changing economy so he gets caught up and in that sense he probably is like many many other people at this time except because he jumps in with both feet because he is so headstrong it's always worse and so much of his adult life he spent fighting of lawsuits and trying to settle debts and he's constantly and yet he asked to go into bankruptcy which is a terrible personal blow to him because that is seen as a personnel failure that he had to declare bankruptcy course hundreds of thousands of other people are declared bankruptcy the same time but that's not

something he's he's thinking about welcome to canada of course probably tens of thousands perhaps even a hundred thousand people are declaring bankruptcy at the same time but brown doesn't see his failure is part of the societal failure his bankruptcy is deeply personal i think what you said earlier that when the premise of all is this is worse than the things that he's been flexible brian brown is inflexible he is a plotter in some ways that is he lays out a plan and then he's going to go for that once he's laid out his plan nothing seemed to derail him the most obvious example is as will business where he has this totally crazy scheme for grating and selling war he then takes will to

england where he thinks he can sell it not even bothering to investigate and discovered that in fact will inman does export it will back to the united states at this time he gets the idea of his head he moves forward so it one sense he is almost mind a maniacal and the way he proceeds and of course he's later accused of that in regards to slavery on the other hand he gets into these economic problems in part because he's like his neighbors but he's more extreme he jumps with both feet into the economy bies way borrows money to buy land and on top of all that is terribly slippery we've got to get this is very welcome and one of the things about brown has he not only over invested its way over his head and he's single we focused totally stubbornly there's been divisiveness

as a senator brown's business dealings tell us a lot about who we as he jumps in with both feet whenever there's an investment opportunity he overextend himself and when dealing he has a notion of how to sell wall which is pretty much wrong but he's absolutely convinced he's right and he ends up losing lots of money for people to take he takes the will to england to celebrate the time that england's exportable to the united states because he doesn't do his homework and uncover the us has a sloppy businessman so at one point he buys land with borrowed money and it gives a mortgage to somebody for the land and then sells the land to somebody else and there's allegations of dishonesty in the end most of its creditors don't say he's dishonesty simply admit that he's sloppy that he isn't very good at what he's doing

the same thing with a welder says he can't keep track of who's will pay me and he forgets to acknowledge that will it's coming from the midwest will growers what staggering alice is that despite his obvious in abilities to do these things people continue to invest within people continue to come to him people continue to want to make a deal with and his friend perkins in akron ohio even if it's cost perkins thousands of dollars perkins as i want you to my partner i want you to tell me in my sheep in my wilderness either something about the man that that's it mesmerized as people he does the same that of course was raising money for spirit he goes to these very smart very savvy eastern businessmen like stearns in boston who's in the wind seed business and making lots of money as a legacy auto manufacturer and he gets turned to back him it's just amazing that this man can do this but this

is the force of his personality it's the same personality that keeps them at harpers ferry on a number of them know it's time to retreat but he's stubborn and his stubbornness overcomes it clear sense of how band battles going on it's time to get out gorillas easy to do he says if you i mean it is just that i guess i think you've got to see him as this is says as it did that the civic to understand where if you understand the wool business and they're both ochre ok let's say for me i think you know everything i know

it's hard to comprehend how charismatic john brown must have been and the pictures of him displayed rather homely man a man i with no apparent great physical activity certainly not handsome he's not large although when he goes to boston it's very interesting the five foot nine brown has described as a big tall man from the west so it's clear that his charisma his force of personality raises height makes him bigger than he actually is everyone describes his eyes these piercing eyes that cuts through you eat charmers people and he's so sincere and what he's doing the people who are normally smart and careful with your money give him money for projects whether it's business deals or getting excuse me people who are normally smart very savvy give him money whether it's for business deals or for

buying guns for kansas or harpers ferry out there's no reason to do these things it's all a matter of trust john brown would've been a great con man if he had wanted to be a con and he doesn't and he perhaps it is ultimate virtue in this respect is that he's totally sincere in what he's doing he fully believes in himself and other people believe in him because he believes himself we are what's stunning about brown is his ability to get people to look at it what's stunning about brown his ability to get people to back him and this is his charisma he's got these great piercing eyes that people focus on he is obviously a magnetic personality

he walks into the drawing rooms in boston and everybody focuses on him how people describe as being a large man when he's only five foot nine his charisma makes him bigger than he actually is and i think this is part of the reason for his ability to attract investors whether it's for land deals or the world business or for kansas or for her persevere i mean you do another one to my legislature his charisma is obviously apparent in the way the men who surround him both in kansas and harpers ferry are loyal to him at harpers ferry they know they're going to be captured or killed at some point because they're doubting because they were hanging around too long and yet they stay with brown they stay with brown because his charisma his force of personality makes them stay with him perhaps they really do think that somehow he will pull it out once again has he's done so often in his life he's in tough

situations in kansas he gets the men to stick with amy somehow they survive and make it out who is overseas what's interesting is brown doesn't go to kansas right away his son's go out to kansas to homestead and in part to fight for freedom but also to look for new and one of his son wants to bring his war one of brown's sons wants to bring his prized fruit trees out to kansas and create orchards and again this is symptomatic of the mid nineteenth century americans they're very idealistic about slavery but they're also practical about looking for good way and had to be farmers and to start life over brown's life and that of his sons is always a renewal you move to a new place you start again over and over again you start again brown doesn't go to kansas because he's already started over again in north elbow he's happy in your

job this is the happiest place has never been this is the place where he really belongs in these cold wilderness adirondack mountains surrounded by blacks in a sense of the racial equality brown has truly happy as i wanna move to kansas furthermore brown's goal is to run slaves out of the south the picture i'm talking about a subterranean way to go into the south and bring slaves at kansas's peripheral to us so ground doesn't go to kansas until the violence starts until it sounds right back and say we need help we need guns we're being pushed by misery ends by the right border rafi is the key missourians who come over usually drunk shooting up the place pushing the free staters will this of course makes brown crazy this makes him very angry and so brown says yes i'm going to kansas gathers guns and goes to kansas so he gets to kansas and

late in the game it after violence has already started and he begins to organize things and he's a great organizer when he's focused on that you know it's been a question which i just three stages keep battling i mean i know you wanna fight that's right well that's why i will you can't figure out whether he has the job before eating fifty four kansas had been a territory that was an organized there was no government there was mostly native americans when congress organizes kansas and nebraska making fifty for it the peels part of the missouri compromise by allowing slavery in kansas an area that previously i had to not only open to freeze settlement this infuriates the north leads the republican party helped create lincoln as president

in kansas you get a slave holders let me back up and that is that's an islamist who wanted to our tribe uses citizen on the long winded air when president here sets up a territorial government insists he points one pro slavery governor after another here is a pro slavery government and cancers even though by the time brown gets there the majority of the settlers are from the free states and the majority of the settlers would like to have a free government in kansas they elect their own government they like their own legislature the official government declares their actions illegal furthermore the official government adopts pro slavery laws including the misery cole would they pass laws making it a crime to denounce slavery making in a sense a crime to be john brown a crime to be an abolitionist so by a kind of the definition of the law many of the new orders especially the browns are criminal simply because they

are vocally opposed to slavery and at one point browne that you know walks around during the officials to arrest him for treason because he's opposed to slavery but the problem for kansas isnt because there are no democratic institutions because the national government is forcing slavery down the throats of the northern majority that doesn't want it the only response that's viable response if you don't fight it then you're going to lose you're going to have slavery pushed into kansas where does not wanted furthermore of course there's enormous violence on the site of the pro slavery people