WGBH Lectures; WGBH Forum Network; The Future of Teaching in Massachusetts Part 2; 4224-2008_11_12.mov

Thank you Paula. It's exciting. You've laid out an exciting challenge for the state. It's a powerful vision for the future to make it happen and we need to move on two levels one is kind of the policy framework legislation larger context of community support for schools. I'm another level we need to be working with people in schools as you're talking about the readiness schools and how do we make this change in practice. And so we're going to be having two panels this morning the first one is a policy panel. And the second panel will focus on schools to moderate that. I want to introduce again someone that most of you probably already know Pat had who is been a champion for educators in the state for years and he's doing that work now in the Massachusetts state legislature where she is chair of the Joint Committee on Education. She's also a former teacher. And we're delighted to have you Patty mattering this session today. Please welcome her. Thank you.

Thank you Tom and I'm delighted to be here as well. Today we'll be hearing from two distinguished panels. The first will provide an overview of education for Massachusetts. And a broad view. We hope the second panel will be a group of educators from across the commonwealth who will you who are using innovative approaches and providing students with a 21st century education. They'll also be time for questions of both panels at the end in this discussion about the future of teaching in Massachusetts. Our panelists will take a close look at strategies that strengthen the teaching corps. And impact student learning. In addition they'll address the need to move away from the solo practice of teaching to models that recognize and embrace collaboration and teamwork in schools. We have a lot packed into this discussion so let's get started. Let's begin by introducing our panel to my far right. Jackie Jenkins Scott the president of the college next to her. Mitch Chester. The commissioner of

elementary and secondary education. On my far left Nick Donahue the CEO of the Nellie Mae Education Foundation and next to me Linda Noonan the managing director of the Massachusetts Business Alliance for education education. So I want to thank you all for just getting in the conversation. Mitch we've just heard from the secretary. But let's get a bit father into this. Recognizing the state's budget constraints can't the teaching profession evolve from where it is to embrace more of the 21st century approach. And what do we focus on first. Well in my mind no question the teaching profession can evolve in in I was very heartened by the opening comments from the secretary from from Tom and and from Sibel a lot of discussion about teaching focuses on teaching as individuals and what it takes to be an outstanding teacher absent the context for teaching that the school environment.

And I think it's critical that we that we think largely about the kind of the kind of institutions the kinds of schools that really foster the development of teachers the continuous upgrading of teaching skills. There's a lot of research some of which has been cited in in the opening comments. We know for example that the two factors that are very critical to whether a beginning teacher feels good about his or her entry into the profession involve whether or not the teacher finds herself in a in a in a school where there is collaboration among adults as opposed to kind of a sink or swim situation. A second second aspect that really is is determinative of whether or not a beginning teacher feels efficacious feels like he or she can make a difference is the kind of feedback that that he or she gets in those first couple of years on the job.

And it's amazing when you look at this research how many beginning teachers find themselves in schools where neither of those conditions is present where adults are where it's very much sink or swim. The conversations that happen among adults are not about the day to day craft. You're kind of on your own once you close your door. And secondly where you find you receive very little feedback on your work so in my mind the kinds of things are going to really make a difference in teaching. Don't take money at the outside. I don't want to say that funding is not important funding is necessary but it's not sufficient. We need to think about the kinds of schools the kinds of institutions that support the development of teachers that make teaching a profession that someone wants to be part of as as our approach. Second to other aspects I'd like to put on the table at the outset which again I don't believe require us to to add to have additional funds but may require us to think in different ways

about the funds that we use. One of these is is the. The whole salary structure for teaching right now the salary structure for teaching is laid out in a way that rewards a member of the profession if they stick it out for 35 years. If you stick it out for 35 years you're in pretty good shape you've got a you have a secure retirement. The. Fiscal structure pension to fall back on after you retire there is little incentive at the front end of that career. And more and more of our young people today in today's world don't think about spending 35 years in any profession let alone in teaching. So I'd like to see is think about restructuring the incentive structure so that we encourage bright young people who may want to spend five years maybe 10 years in the profession but are not ready to commit to 35 years in the

profession. A second area that that I think has been mentioned earlier that I believe is critical thinking about how to how to restructure the profession in a way that encourages people to to want to be part of the profession is differentiating the roles differentiating roles and responsibilities for teachers. Right now we have a system which largely in the end there are exceptions but largely thinks about teaching in kind of the cookie cutter approach where the job is the same on the thirty fifth year on the job as it is in the first year on the job. And there's in many systems there's very little opportunity to take on more responsibility. Let. It End to End to be paid more for that responsibility. So I would like to see think about ways of restructuring differentiating roles and responsibilities were really hemmed in in the United States. I

would argue with our class size discussions in thinking about teaching as as kind of a uniform set of responsibilities. And the class size discussion kind of limits us to 25 to 1 or 20 to 1 or whatever whatever ratio we're pushing toward as opposed to thinking about at times a master teacher working with 50 kids or 60 kids and at times teachers working with very small groups of kids or individual kids and in differentiating those those responsibilities those opportunities also differentiating the kinds of pay that we give people in providing a way to mentor people and encourage people then to the profession. So I don't think that our current fiscal situation should it all be an impediment to thinking about the kinds of changes we could be making to enhance the profession at this point. As you think about teaching in the 21st century what's happening in Massachusetts and

what's good or what's missing. Well when I think about that question the first thing I think about is what an exciting time it is. I think there are I think just an enormous moment for Massachusetts and being the leader of a large regional foundation. I have a luxury of seeing what's going on in other states and across the country and it's really very impressive and very proud of the conversations happening here and. And there are like conversations heating up around the country where people are really really considering some some deep changes in how we think about schooling so when they think about what's going well here I knows get in this game politically so I'm free to say that I think one of the best things going on is the nature of leadership in the Commonwealth. I think Kevin Paul secretary Mitchell's commissioner yourself involved with the legislature the folks who are up on the panel. I just think it's a realignment of the governor's leadership around the readiness agenda I think that's an enormously under valued asset in the

state right now I think it's I think it's it's stronger than we know. I think the other things are going well are really the everyday efforts of the heroic educators we have in our schools. These people are teaching in contex that are there. It's as tough as you can imagine. And I think that that is something that we shouldn't forget. Another thing is the readiness agenda. I think that it's a bold comprehensive look at what how we need think about schooling and not everybody agrees on every piece and not every piece goes far enough for some of us. But the idea that we're actually taking a look at the whole and asking ourselves some important big questions is a breath of fresh air particularly in that context the commitment to post-secondary success for everyone. That is the new currency a high school diploma is not something that we should aspire to or for use I would. I wonder if there's anyone in this room who would be satisfied if their child or relative achieved by school diploma and didn't achieve any post-secondary. And those expectations should be half or should be had for everyone the right in the schools and potentially working with districts

is another a very important idea. And there are I think extended learning time is a is a good start and reconsidering the way schools look when I think about what's missing it's not what's missing it's really what's coming I think and that I'll say it this way I think it's clear to everyone that M casts and the standards of droving castes have supported Massachusetts and being as proud as it can be. It compared compared nationally I think it's been historic. It served its purpose its It is achieved enormous gains and the work is not over. So what's coming I hope is a reconsideration of the standards of the five learning to have it really true 21st century for them and that we really think about building on the strength of an cast to to build a truly comprehensive assessment system that actually measures those complicated 21st century skills people talk about and that there is really a clear and strong commitment to innovation to support new designs and learning.

I think there's it's important to continue to improve the model we have today. But if we don't think about different designs for learning that are significantly different in terms of where they happen and when they happen then I will be talking about that a little bit later. And who does the teaching. It's a very challenging topic but variety in that context is essential. I think that you know one teacher said to me a while ago she said you know you're asking us to teach kids how to fly while working with vehicles that drive on the ground. So this is not about limiting teachers this is about unleashing the creativity that drives people into the profession and providing the context for for just enormous opportunities to engage with interesting ways of engaging learners in and outside of school. So specifically I'm hoping that real conversation is had about some kind of enterprise or innovation zone which basically provides allowances for schools and communities to reconsider how

they put together where they know this is going to be. This would be a challenge if this happened because it would call into question are the current standards in the current assessment system the only way to measure success. So I'd say what I what I hope is coming and if it's not a put on the missing list. It is an opportunity for a tightly monitored effort to but loosely manage the effort to allow people to put themselves together in dramatically different ways and I'm talking about certified teachers leading the charge. I'm talking about a wide variety of people who are part time who are not lifetime educators being involved directly. And I think it's the right time for this. I know the economy is going to be reeling people go is this really the time to invest in innovative designs and really carve out these spaces and it's exactly the right time to do the SO. Those are things I think are coming and people are talking about them and I put them on the missing list if we don't work toward him pretty quickly. Thanks Nick. And I think that's a perfect segue into calling on you Jackie because we really need to turn to the higher education community because you're going to play a vital

role in changing how we put ourselves together and how we prepare our teachers so how can we pool our knowledge and what works to address. As Nick said what's missing and the form teacher preparation. Thank you guys. And I want to echo what Nick and Paul's comments Massachusetts is a remarkable remarkable remarkable state. We have been leaders in education for many many decades and of course our institutions of higher education in Massachusetts have been very much a part of that leadership both in scholarship and practice and in producing some of the best teachers in the country. And while we are seeing the teaching profession change the fact of the matter is higher education has to change as well. We have in place some structures to help with that. For example the deans of the

schools of education throughout the commonwealth meet on a regular basis and they are asking the challenging questions about our curriculum. How do we train teachers to function in this new 21st century how do we look at collaboration and partnerships in different ways and. How do we adjust to the demands for rigor and quality while at the same time the encouragement of innovation and flexibility in the classrooms. And those are some of the. Issues that I think we are struggling with and quite frankly. We have more to do in higher education. We we we get the students who we want them to leave our institutions passionate about teaching and willing to commit to that passion to hopefully a very very long period of time.

Three point eight years of tenure as a teacher is just not enough. I think all of us remember some teacher that had it impact on us in our lives. And so we're looking at ways to be more collaborative and ways in which we can work with in partnership with others. The deans tell us however that it is not easy because in some ways we are constrained by the requirements that are needed and many of them rightfully so too big to become a teacher. And and yet our students are asking for all kinds of flexibility too. One of the wonderful things about teacher training is the experience of being in the classroom as part of their training. I think we lock in all of our schools of education

place a very high value on that that. The opportunity to practice before you get into that classroom is is critical to becoming the kind of teacher we want to teachers to be. But what we find often is that after they're in the classroom we're asking ourselves What role can higher education play in supporting teachers after they're in the classroom. How can we bring our loans back to our institutions how can we support them in their work. How can we help them to survive those ups and downs of the teaching profession and I know that at Wheelock where we're looking and experiment with ways not just in terms of formal education after they've graduated in there in the classroom but how what ways can we partner to support those efforts that are going on. And finally I think. As And as it was discussed

earlier. We are seen different people coming into the teaching profession it's not just 18 to 22 year old traditional college students. So we're looking at ways to be innovative about helping others come into the profession so that the curriculum that we've had for them for the last number of decades won't necessarily work for people who are working. Or and want to teach or who are looking to transition from a career that they've had in to teaching. So we're looking at weekend. Evening. Other ways to induct teachers into the profession than the traditional college bound student that requires innovation and a different way of thinking about how we train teachers. Lots going on in that area a lot of thought being given by institutions of higher education.

And I think we're all asking for ways to partner and be creative as we go through this transition. Thanks Jacki. Linda I just wanted to bring you in here now. What role do you think the business community can play. Well given the current business situation I'm not sure that any teachers would like the business community play a role. But I think that as has been mentioned earlier that the silver lining in recessions is that it gives us the opportunity to study and adjust and change our ways. And so there are two ways that I think that the business community can be helpful in education reform and one is pragmatic and one is policy oriented. I'm just a very pragmatic level. Most of the jobs that exist today did not exist when today's teachers were in school and they may not know what those jobs involve and what the workplace of today looks like. So just through things like teacher extra chips and giving teachers an opportunity to see what choices their students will be facing. Similarly job shadowing internships for students

we feel very strongly that work based experience helps not only help students not only make wise choices about how they prepare for their post-secondary options but also provides them with motivation to stay in school to take more rigorous courses. Business people by visiting schools and be a he administers the state scholars initiative in Massachusetts and we bring business people in to talk to students in high school about their core selection about taking more rigorous courses and we have a lot of anecdotal evidence that more kids are taking honors courses and earning higher grades in the schools that we visit. So so business can do those kinds of very practical things. On a policy level I think that the experience with the Education Reform Act in 1993 which was led by Paul and others in our organization shows that business can provide the impetus for change. The business can even provide cover for the people in the public sector who have to make tough decisions because business employees citizens business

has access to hundreds of concerned citizens parents who they can inform who they can you know see that their company is taking a stand on positions and business actually can help with public relations. So I think that there's there's an area there and just in direct relation to teaching business is constantly looking at trends. Business is at the cutting edge of managing human capital. We may not like the way they manage money but they manage people fairly well in most cases. And that kind of knowledge should be shared perhaps a chastened business community that doesn't come in with an implication that they know how to do everything perfectly will be better received by educators. And if everybody can agree that we have something to learn from each other and not as some of the letters to the editor in today's Globe sort of put a defensive posture on you know and I've actually been asked one superintended will thank me for a report that we issue and another one will say Who do you think you are telling us how to do our jobs.

So I think if we can get past that and share knowledge and information that the business community can be a great catalyst for change and a great support for educators. Thanks Kim. Stay with that for a minute. You've been very vocal about the need for 21st century skills for students but how does how does that relate to the business community's historic support for high content standards and accountability can both be accomplished. We definitely think so. We don't see 21st century skills as mutually exclusive exclusive with content. And basically here is the way we see it. There's a basic level of knowledge proficiency that all students need. No matter what their choices are going to be and they need to be measured on that. The reality is that the public investment in public education has to be justified there has to be transparency and if anything the business community has learned it's that accountability is essential. So while we don't necessarily have to expect the same kind of content instruction

that we've had in the past it has to be there it has to be measured by an assessment that guarantees that there is equity across districts for all students. However if those students also need to adapt in the future because the jobs that they're going to have haven't been created yet and this isn't new. I actually was talking with an electronics technician at Intel in Hudson who went to vocational school who graduated in the early 70s as an automotive mechanic and enjoyed that career a great deal but that changed. Computer started to show up in cars and as he was studying how to take care of cars he really got intrigued with computers and decided to become an electronics tech technician. You know that was something that didn't exist when he was in high school and that kind of experience is what our kids are facing every day on the way in here I heard on the radio about a Ohio company that's trying to hire people to build wind turbines. Some of you are nodding your head. And what did they say at the end they need people who can think on their feet.

And I thought wow isn't that the perfect example of the need for 21st century skills our teachers need 21st century skills in order to do their jobs in order to collaborate in order to think outside of the box recognize that. Students learn from a lot of people in their community not just the person in front of the classroom and the last story I'm going to tell is a superintendent a retired superintendent tell me about walking into a classroom and notebooks laptops were opened iPods were in ears. He wanted to just scream shut those computers and take out your pens and pencil. I couldn't figure out where the teacher was but held back and watched and noticed that the laptops were open. Kids were I am ing their college brothers and sisters they were looking up things on the Internet. They were collaborating with people at the other table to try to do some math problems. And the teacher was just moving around looking and working with them. And I think that it made him as an adult look differently at what

this is this is how companies operate this is how businesses operate. And these kids were actually they were learning the math but they were still getting 21st century skills. Thanks. Mitch. You know it's it's pretty clear to us that Massachusetts has been at the forefront of reform. But in light of Linda's comments about staying ahead of the curve we've got to prepare the kids for the 21st century. So how can we help teachers meet that challenge. Well I'd like to start with with. The tension that Lind Lynd I think highlighted between this notion of 21st century skills and our traditional notions of of content area mastery mastery of the subject areas. And I believe we have to navigate this. This conversation this tension pretty carefully because there are folks who are kind of both extremes of this notion that it's all about content it's all about learning to learn at the other end of this of the spectrum. And we

need to we need to find the right medium on that. I believe I think it's essential that young people be well grounded in continuity of learning. I don't think you can talk about problem solving or problem management absent a grounding in the content in which the problem is is found I mean there's a lot of research going back the research on what differentiates a novice from an expert. We don't have enough people young people growing up wanting to be teachers. How do we inspire young people to want to be a teacher. Many teachers got that inspiration from a teacher that they had as an as a you know a young child. So I think there are ways we can if we view the it it's not that we're training you to be only a teacher. We're training you to be an educator. And that takes on many many roles. And I think that's a challenge for higher education.

It's a challenge for all of us Nic I know you've got some interesting thoughts on when learning takes place and who does the teaching. And who would you know who exactly that is would you like to. Sure Altrincham want to hear the question. It's it's you know it's obviously about schooling and education but I just thought you know when learning happens and who does the teaching. You know in some ways teaching and learning are the are human activity that the finds us as a species and really good at it. We do it together. It may not be the the you know the only defining characteristic but it just makes us so special. And for good reasons. Over the last hundred fifty years I'm not going to the seminar on the industrial agrarian school year model and the factory based model but we did something a while ago to organize ourselves for success as a country and as a culture that made a lot of sense and we're having a

hard time getting ourselves out of it. So asking ourselves who does the who what when does learning happen and who does the teaching. Learning happens all the time every moment of the day. And every person has hundreds of teachers in their lives. Informal Education those definitions are fairly strict and a little more rigid than they might be. So when I think about the question terms of our educational context you know it's literally ancient history and it's like it's a little image but I do I study they just I think about Socrates in the marketplace gathering people around them thinking about the real world experience as they confront it. That's a lesson in applied learning. Figure out the dimensions of a of a of a square through a interesting inquiry based engagement in a real life setting. And those are the kinds of teaching and learning opportunities I hope we learn to recapture. You know the model we have is good for doing some of what we have said is most important in teaching the

basics and we're doing an okay job with that fairly well. We took the challenge equity around that topic and we we were moving toward meeting it. Not everyone is learning that the same levels exactly what they need to learn but we're making improvements. But when it comes to the skills and knowledge that we expect our children to have organizing in the way we've organized with the narrowly defined educators and school settings which is not the answer I really wonder about that. So what does it entail. Well we have a long rich history of a wide variety of learning agents. We've had a historic the labor industry has taught us about apprenticeships the workforce today. There are there are companies that spend billions of dollars teaching and learning with their employees. There are opportunities for pathways to be developed to and points of higher learning that aren't currently defined by by four year degrees. And I think it's really really opening ourselves up to the notion that teaching and learning happens in a wide variety of Rena's and can gauge a wide variety of people.

And with two things. When I think about teachers and who they are I think about the day the next half is uncovered there are millions of older Americans who are seeking some kind of engagement and work and I frankly wonder about whether they will endure the school schools we have today. We talk about significant transition of teachers 30 40 and 50 percent and we talk a lot about him put it on the backs of our really excellent higher ed institutions to somehow prepare them more fully for a workplace that is barely endurable for young people and I think second only to teachers schools a tough place to endure. So I think you know expecting higher ed institutions we're talking about to prepare is important but preparing and changing the workplace need to go hand in hand from a student's perspective the structural change in the can be framework this make my own daughter is in the second grade and she's predictably doing very well. And when she came into the year there was a diagnostic test that they applied related them cast but only

bigger My guess and she scored a hundred percent. And I looked at the teacher and here's the former commissioner of education you know in the room of your second grade teacher so my wife's like a communion table like don't be mister know it all. And I'm thinking my daughter maxed out on the diagnostic and she's bored and it's November and I'm really concerned about that. Her teacher's a great person and a really good teacher. And she talked to me about all the things she wished she could do with Dorothy. And that wish list is what we should aspire to achieve now her response to me what I said So what are you going to do challenge wristed wife on about given her the third grade curriculum and that really wouldn't be fair to next year's teacher. Now I've been a teacher and I know about Richmond activities that I was troubling to me that we worked ourselves into a situation where I had a terrific veteran teacher who wanted to do some other things to support my daughter in moving ahead and she couldn't. Well Jackie you talked a little

bit before about I think this problem that. How do we make changes to the teaching preparation process that addresses these so that you can you talk to me a little bit about that and how do we keep quality at the forefront. And and keep the door open so we enable people all different kinds of people to come into teaching. It is a real challenge. I think you know we all care about and want high quality. Part of what we are going to have to deal with is what is quality MC's example is a wonderful example and what we are constrained with this. You know some of the same things we hear from teachers about testing. There are certain requirements in Massachusetts that you must achieve in order to teach rightfully so. But that then puts a huge constraint on us and higher education.

Students want to graduate with that hundred twenty credit or whatever. Their parents are saying we want you on the four year plan not the five year plan not the six year plan. We are saying we want students to wait the same things we're saying we want of our elementary and high school students well-rounded analytical and communication. You know a world the global citizen all of these are things we want our college students to leave with. And then you have the balance of who you you only have X number of credits to do those things because if you want to be an elementary school teacher you must take these kind of courses to be you know proficient and more than proficiency in a pedagogy and the skills that are necessary to teach certain things. And that is that's a huge tension. And we hear a lot of the deans of the schools of education are continuously struggling with this because they are

both legitimate causes. And I think that's a conversation that we all have to participate in as we think about quality as we think about the skills and the experiences we want our students to have. You know for example if we require a lot of time in the classroom in the school setting. And that then of course means when you're not able to take you know whatever. Some nice scores that that. Will help you to be a well-rounded educated person. So that is a struggle. A set of challenges that I think start right in elementary school right up through higher at the end and college and beyond. This is the guy who can resolve that or if you go back to my earlier comments and I think we need to rethink we need to rethink from the ground up what we require for preparation and who we encourage to become teachers.

Mind my earlier comments focused on the notion of preparation not ending in pre service but continuing into those first first years on the job because the evidence is just so overwhelming about how swallowed up. Had those first couple of years become for an individual and and the kind of socialization that happens the immediacy of keeping up with those first couple of years can just undo Lots of what's a lot a lot of the best things that have happened in the pre-service component of education so we need to rethink that. We need to look at whether we're looking at whether we're thinking about the right right stuff or preparation. If we have stuff in there that isn't helpful to being a good teacher let's get rid of it. Let's let's absolutely go down this path. But I but I am I am troubled by by next example. You know too too often in the name of some x sternal. Force whether it's the third grade teacher or whether it's the state's testing

program or whether it's the state regulations. We end up hemmed then and I worry we've got to get those regulatory pieces out of the way if they're in the way. No question about that and I'm committed to that. But at the same time if in fact that that teacher is unable to think about how to enrich the curriculum for youngsters who are ready to fly whether it's through enhanced literature and so forth. Or or as opposed to the third grade curriculum being the restriction that prevents that enrichment from happening because we don't want to steal the thunder of a third grade teacher. That's a troubling scenario and we need institutions that are much more flexible than that again back to my original comment. That shouldn't be on the individual classroom teacher. Ideally that's a school where teach where collectively the faculty is thinking about how to meet the individual needs of students whether it's

accelerating students enriching students or whether it's helping students who are really struggling. Thank you and I'm sure this is you know hem to send in time but we want we want to get to the audience. If you are in the top tier you really need to come down to the bottom if you're going to ask some questions. So as people prepare themselves to ask questions let me throw one more out there while you're ready yourself there be a microphone past what current practices involving other educators mentors family members internships etc. could evolve into a new definition of teachers. You want to anybody want to try out. I'm the mother of a Teach for America teacher in her second year and it's been an interesting observation cause I'm also the daughter of a teacher who taught foreign language and at the middle school and high school level was called Junior high then. And you know I think that what Nick said about the it would bother me as a parent.

And I think that what I saw what I see with my daughter is that she looped with her kids from third to fourth grade and the teachers teach as a team. They divide the kids up for math so that there's a graduated there it's ability grouping which I as a non educator I'm not sure is really the theme these days but basically they take kids who are some of whom have just arrived in this country and cannot speak or read anguish and other kids who would be high performers in the best school districts in the country and they try to reach each of those needs by changing the way that they teach. They bring in experts a science specialist. And this is a school that has 600 low income kids with no school psychologist on staff no social worker no nurse. And so the teachers are also dealing with all of those issues and. I would argue that there's almost nothing that could have prepared my daughter to be a good effective teacher and she has been because she moved many of her kids over a year and a half or two years of achievement last year.

So I think that the whole def. you know I almost wonder if changing the teaching profession almost goes to the same model that other professions use where you get a bachelor's degree and then you have to get a graduate degree just like you have to go to law school or medical school. And I realize there are probably people in this or in this room thinking this woman knows not what she's talking about but if you really want to change the profession maybe you just need to give kids. Give people a strong grounding and it would apply to middle career changers too and let them get into the classroom and have the training post-graduate. But I just I think that there has to be a mixture of preparation. It could be the alternative. It's not alternative versus traditional. It's both. There are some people my daughter would never have gone into teaching if she didn't come to Teach for America wrote she would never have applied to an education school to become a teacher that wasn't what she wanted to do. Now that she's done this route she probably will stay in education for a long time to come. And so I'm

rambling a little bit put a little maybe a lot but I think the point is that there is no set answer there multi-hour have to be multiple routes and there has to be what you've all said is getting it off of the individual teacher and working as a team so that all of the kid's needs can be met. So Nick I know you want to add to that so yeah. So there's an answer sometimes yes a fix OK. First I say that is Dorothy's dad I don't want her to learn it anybody else's expense because equity is critical right so are we organize. And I think the the there are number of activities. I want her working with a wide variety of adults so I'd support more rigor and strength from the profession. If we think that that's the only kind of adult who can contribute to learning than we're mistaking ourselves so community based organizations people from the workforce. I think the future is about a blend of highly paid rigorously trained lifetime educators who are working with people who've chosen to make teaching part of their career who are working next to people who choose teaching to be part of their

day and some of those people are volunteers and some get paid. So the places that do that. You're going to hear from Citizen Schools a great example who we're supporting to bring other adults around Europe a program that's actually a you know a failure recovery program for young adults that includes a wide variety of people from the workplace is talking about engagement with Nassib to bring young people not only Nassa into the schools but the kids into the ESA. Los Alamos there are efforts underway where scientists are working side by side by kids in New Hampshire and Rhode Island. We're supporting pilots that have young people working without a school time providers. These are formally after school providers to engage young people in activities for credits that count toward graduation. They're not doing this in the classroom. They're doing it was well thought people who are prepared and supported to teach in a standards based context for credit. And that can happen in schools and should but it doesn't have to be based on and I'll name one

more traditional model. There are an endless school in Boston which I think most people don't know about it the principal schools right here Margaret nice and she's figured out how in a more traditional context to bring people around a population that most people have no idea how to succeed. So there are different varies are more traditional and more innovative and those are some examples. Thank you. We have a question at the back. Would you like Jen face south. Thank you I will Brown's program state representative from the 24th Middlesex which is the Belmont North Cambridge and he was a very diverse district. I was really intrigued by your comment about the question you know where do we learn who is the teacher. And I think it ties into the observation of that classroom that you talked about businessperson walking into and seeing your butt in the laptops. I mean there's an explosion of learning going on on the Internet today and it's happening you know in the adult world we're all finding new ways to figure out what's going on in the world and that's also happening for kids. Formally and informally I mean there's a lot of formal

programs that are emerging for K-12 learning. There are also you know all the kind of exchange programs among kids and among teachers of information. I feel like I don't hear enough about that that that phenomenon and the potential for really harnessing that phenomenon in the conversation where education is headed I'd really be interested in any comments that anybody on the on the podium had on that issue. We want to take that. Thank you nice I will representative the you know I I don't think we figured out exactly how to incorporate technology and exploding technology ubiquitous technology well into our curriculum in our educational experiences. I think this is an area that where there's a lot of kind of bootstrapping going on there's a lot of outstanding examples. You'll find a number of classrooms and some schools that are really starting to integrate this. But to do it in a deliberate way that's really

transformative where it's not just a plug in Workbook it's you know there's a lot of people that have kids on computer programs which are really substitutes for for skill and drill kinds of workbooks but I assume you're talking about a lot more than that. So there's no question that. We were we are not ahead of weed that the education profession is not ahead of the curve on this matter. There's a book written probably 40 years ago now called the schooling society by a by Been Ilitch met. Amazing how precious the author was because he anticipated the couple themes in the book one was about as the title suggests the notion that as as as the world went on and technology exploded. He predicted this. That brick and mortar school houses become less and less important as places where kids learn and as technology allowed it the

opportunities for learning the kinds of things I think that Nick was alluding to just just were happening everywhere. And I think that's the world that's in full unfolding on us. I don't think we I think in my own case I speak for myself. It's there's no question that it's transformative. It's unclear to me exactly how in what we should be doing in the schoolhouse in any very specific way. So I think that the idea of allowing lots of different kind of experiments and models to emerge and keeping track of them is is is what's happening at this point. You know I think I think the good news is we're in a standards based context so presumably if we can say what we need to accomplish you can you could harness technology to be one route to do it. I think the person asked the question you're being too kind. Basically I think for those of us involved in education reform it reminds me of a meeting I went to where a lot of big thinkers together were talking about transforming schools and somebody said you know I really think we need to to get a

hand on this technology thing in management that's really going to mess up what we're doing. You know and I sat there and I thought I sort of felt the same way you know it's like yeah you know let's grab this techno and then I thought you know a guy was guys. It's like it's already here. And so we don't do a good job and I think Mitch nailed it when he when he made the reference of this is not about doing the same thing a little better. We supported I supported laptop initiatives in New Hampshire there in Maine and the outcomes aren't that great because the engagement is not that different. So we've got a ways to go and I it's a frustration. I just say one other comment here is in terms of higher ed and and the opportunity for for many of us to collaborate we where we just took a group of Wheelock faculty to scholastic in New York a couple weeks ago and and here's an opportunity if we can all get on the same page it's a for profit educational

company with vast access to technology and thinking. How much. Better the students will be if we can work together with them instead of him being over here. How you read over here and as not using those resources that will come out of their investment. So. It's changing rapidly and you know frankly I would say from a higher perspective we're still playing catch up because we're teaching teachers we're preparing those teachers and I don't know that we are doing it quite as well as we can and should. I just want to say I think it's about creating a performance based culture. And if the school is really based on performance and getting kids to where every kid to where they need to be then they can decide what tools work for the kids within their community.

And if it and that's going to change constantly so that it's going to need again the teachers to have the 21st century skills of really adapting and identifying what's going to be of value and what's going to be effective. Did you ever file for a percentage. I don't. Just very quickly I mean I think the state needs to take a leadership role in this because it's hard for educators in the public schools to figure out what are good products out there what are valid pathways for them because they do want to do things that are going to take people the right direction terms of meeting standard performance standards. I think the state needs to play a role in identifying this online learning options that are good that are there that are there are full quality option because there's a huge variety out there on the Internet we never know what we're dealing with a state without that kind of leadership. But it's hard for this idea to move as fast as it could the public school system. Yes. Thank you. Do they have another question. They see I'm the director of educational policy and they if he messed chooses but

also spent 30 years in the classroom in Boston mostly as a middle school science teacher and as I'm listening to this discussion there's one thing that keeps coming back to my mind and that has to do with the standards which I fully support. However particularly in the areas of math and science the number of standards any one grade level is enormous particularly in mathematics and if you listen to the people who have dealt with this issue nationally they will tell you the same thing that. If we compare our curricula with our standards with other countries the number of standards per grade level are much lower and they go into it in more depth. Miss Norman just mentioned performance based assessments. We've

talked about other things this morning but if we took the opportunity in the Department of Ed and there's a group that's working on right now revising the mathematics standards if we took this opportunity to align our standards with what people have done in other countries that we're trying to catch up with I think that we do a lot of things in the classroom. We make it much more manageable for teachers to teach those standards in depth. It allows the opportunity for students who have mastered the early standards to go into a room and depth with additional products. It really has meaning to look at the performance. If you make the performance requirements me into trouble. Any ideas on that the Commission would like to add.

Absolutely I just want to say I love the beginning I thoroughly support the standards however with that. Both those are. Yeah I think your points are extremely well taken. We are in fact in a in a revision effort beginning with the math and English Language Arts standards. Part of what we're looking at is the breadth of them and trying to make them more focused if you were clearer. No question about that. We're also very interested in doing some bench more benchmarking outside of Ohio. So a mention to two initiatives one of which we're we're currently I said Ohio for tonight after a West didn't catch if we're not in Ohio. We're in Massachusetts. Well these will be benchmarked out of Massachusetts also. That one is one of those one of those is a multi-state by

30 states participating at this point in a project called the American Diploma Project which is looking at some some evidence for what college ready and what career ready what businesses have said are kind of core to being prepared when you leave high school swear you using that as another touchstone in revising our standards. The final piece is the international benchmarking piece which which has a lot of interests. The National Governors Association the Council of Chief State School Officers which represents the commissioners of education for the 50 states. A group called achieve are working together on a report on international benchmarking and making sure that part of the process of of looking at state by state standards is in fact paying attention to what others countries are expecting given the global nature of our economy so we're very interested in that too. So your comments are very much

appreciated. We have another question. Hi my name's David Lustig come from UMass Lowell and I'm a teacher educator and a former science teacher. I have one short question which is in listening to the spectrum of ideas and problems that we face. I'm wondering what you see as the role for national board certification as a piece of the answer and solution in Massachusetts. Well again I'll take the lead in. Others are welcome to join in you know national board I think really talk really upgraded the application of our best understanding of what good teaching was about prior to gnash the National Board project. We were we were operating largely on a knowledge base that was that emerged from the effective teaching research which looked at

teaching as a generic enterprise that good teaching involves having good good. Good classroom management skills ability to distribute questioning opportunities to a lot of students to monitor students and whether they were getting it and make adjustments on the fly. The National Board said you know there is more to teaching than just that that's part of it and said that there are some very very much some content specific knowledge that needs to be brought to bear in ways that are that have specific pedagogical implications depending on the discipline that's there and that and that it was a huge contribution to our understanding of high quality teaching that I think continues to have an impact. Back to my initial comments. I see. I think I believe that to continue to move the enterprise Ed we need to think about the

kinds of schools that promote continuous learning of teachers continuous development of stronger curricular instructional programs rather than individual teachers as the entry points so from that perspective I'm very interested in how we think about schools and whether schools are promoting high quality teaching high quality approaches to curriculum and instruction differentiation so that youngsters who are ready to fly have the opportunity to fly so that youngsters who are struggling get the support that they need. And in terms of another aspect which is teacher training programs around the country and accreditation of schools of education we know that there are certainly workforce force issues and we know that people move in there very transients. Now in our society and we like chose to get a national accreditation of

our teacher education program so that A we can we can help recruit more people who would go into the teaching profession and have them see it as a profession that has value across the country. So I think it is worth looking at national accreditation in a variety of areas and I would just add this this one around higher education because we don't have enough people going into the teaching profession and we need to find ways to make it an attractive profession and at least this is what I went by faculty tell us. One reason for national accreditation of our teacher education program. And they have another question. I'm Susan currently work for Leslie university I was a also a science teacher. I worked 20 years ago when I first graduated. After undergraduate then I went into

nontraditional Ed and then I. In about 2005 I went back to teaching high school so I had a wonderful comparison. And based on my work with teachers and my own experience one of the things that I found that's been very challenging for teachers is is the at. I hear a lot of talk now about extending the school day but the teachers talk about not having time within the school day to actually address what they're being asked to address because of a lot of other regulatory structures where students are pulled out of class class time is changed. I certainly had that experience myself. And I'm interested in how you address that particular issue. Oh yeah. Before it came to the foundation. We are proud to have been proud supporters of the after school community in Massachusetts and have extended learning time. It's actually something you know we help manage 20 20 get outdoor I'm very proud of that we continue to support innovations around time and I think extending learning time is actually a wedge

into some of the structural issues I was having at before. I think it gives us an opening to think about things differently. Having said that you know I've asked our friends and other advocates of extended learning time how much more time would you have to add on to the school day given how it is organized today to achieve enormous gains in learner outcomes against a very different and high level set of standards. And I'll back off that. How much would you have to add to the day if you just stayed with the standards we had but expected everybody to really gain significant competency in those standards. And it's a trick question. Because the answer is like 12 hours or something I mean it's a lot of ties because the gap between learning is so enormous and the amount of time and the way we teach is so enormous so I I have hopes that extended learning time expands that we continue to engage with it and that we really challenge ourselves to think about how it provokes the assumptions we have about what the school day looks like. If it becomes another

90 minutes only and doesn't grow beyond that. I have concerns about the ultimate impact it will have. And I think I'll stop there. I think that some of the speakers have alluded to the fact that tinkering with the system we have may have reached its limits. And so in fact what we really need to think about is a totally new structure and as opposed to adding time to what we have running the day the way it's currently scheduled. And that's where I think this. Readiness project and the economic downturn really presents an opportunity because people are more open to new approaches and more willing to give them a try. It is probably evident by that what was struck me about the intro you describe your background and I heard you say this. You went into teaching. Then you went into nontraditional education and you went back into the you know high school. And I when you said that nontraditional thing I just want to know like what did you do. You don't have to tell me. OK but that's a

huge M. you of engagement. And right now we treat it as you know Linda said we have the kind of what school is and then we have the nontraditional this mysterious realm of presumable you know engagement and that that issue resonated when you were talking about a theme we've been talking about today. I think we've all witnessed many examples where schools are tackling these issues and doing them very well and I'm sure we're going to hear on the next panel some of them I think the challenge is how do we take those best practices and bring them to scale and how do we take some of the work at the school and make it happen across the state. So that to me is the challenge in and there are places that are doing this and doing it very well so I don't want us to be discouraged that they are not extraordinarily good uses and good things happening in our education system

especially our public education system because there are. And I'm looking forward to hearing the next panel talk about some of these issues as well because there they are right there making it happen. How do you you know we have seen schools who are doing extraordinary things with very constrained budget. All the issues we talk you know we've alluded to and they're doing it and they're doing it very well. You know I just I just wanted to pick up on that kind I've been trying to build this and every time I speak publicly you know the challenge in Massachusetts is not about fixing the broken system. We have a good system in Massachusetts that can be better. And we need to be better. We have groups of students that are not doing as well as as we're seeing in general across the commonwealth. And that too often breaks down along a lot around racial ethnic identity all around the economic background family

space so we need to do better in that regard we also need to do better in terms of making sure that we're really preparing our youngsters for what comes after high school. But but the work that we're about in Massachusetts is about taking a good system and making it better going from good to great it's not about fixing something that's broken. There are outstanding examples. As as the president said of just some outstanding schools that are making good use of time they have very flexible programs that are meeting the needs of individuals and events that are getting very strong results and were in part of the challenge is how do we share those the ideas in and help folks who aren't there yet incorporate some of those practices here. Thank you and I will let the commissioner have the last word. I want to thank you all for participating and I'm sure you will agree that the spirit of these discussion and the piano is just terrific and I am so pleased that they share

their knowledge their commitment with me in my position as as trying to be a policy maker in the States.