The First Amendment; Edward Gullion; Iran

Hope. The First Amendment and a free people weekly examination of civil liberties in the media in the 1970s produced by WGBH radio Boston and cooperation with the Institute for democratic communication at Boston University. The host of the program is the institute's director Dr. Bernard Rubin. How successful is the United States in sustaining democratic allies around the world or in appreciating what is happening around the world to various governments which may affect us for the good or for the bad. Well I am delighted to have as a guest a man who can throw much light on that subject that's Ambassador Edmond Gallian a very

experienced foreign service officer who among other jobs held the post many years ago in Saigon and has been an ambassador to air which for me was the Congo and that was his very last post. Then he went on to the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy where for a long time he was the Dean and perhaps the best spokesman for the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy. He's worked in foreign service in such places as London and Helsinki Algeria's Stockholm Kinshasa has graduated from Princeton University and the National War College is a policy planning member form of Policy Planning member at the State Department. Travels widely since his retirement and has recently been in Korea and Japan and in Africa. As we speak there are developments going on in such

places as Iran which apart from the day by day events have great and momentous importance for the United States. Just where are we at this particular period of flexible changing governments around the world as an influence. Well before we speak of Iran specifically let's try a global look. As I understand it the framework of your inquiry is focused upon the question of civil liberties and the position of democracy as a philosophy in practice of government in the world. One is almost unplanned to say that democracy parliamentary government orderly succession through electoral means is confined to a very small segment of the world. You take Europe peninsula on the flank of Eurasia

North America. Japan. Malaysia Malaysia one and possibly two countries in Latin America. And that's it. And India of course we must not forget India India struggling India. Yes and I would say that there have been some gains to this campaign. Spain has returned to the Democratic fold is returning. Portugal questions still move India after a period of course I dictatorship is again claiming democracy. But the club is very small. If you would say that democracy really involve self-determination it is as if the nations of the world especially the new ones that followed on the cascade of colonialism that these new countries vast majority of the sovereign states in the world do not govern

themselves by democratic means. It would be an error to say that this is our fault. It just does remind us however that societies do live in different different frames. The it is almost since the majority of the marks that I speak of are located in Europe in North America it is as if again that democracy Republican forms of government are confined to the temperate zone to those countries which had an industrial revolution a hundred years back. But you've evolved an entrepreneurial middle class parliamentary systems general education freedom of freedoms of speech press and the rest of it. However that is possibly culture centric. Kind of a classification. I know that

African tribes. Islam ik cultures claim another kind of democracy which they're offering as democracy has been a grassroots kind of a tribe or a village democracy. But in the sense in which you put the question I would say that the general scorecard does not look too good. Well when we look back a little bit and if we're going to enlarge this group of democratic countries which is our goal we cannot be a smaller and smaller island surrounded by by autocracies. We won't survive eventually if that continues when it when we look around at the world with special attention now to Iran one of the frightening things that to me was the fact that I think that we. Handled the situation in correctly not last year or the year before but we have not understood what modernization means. We have not understood the fact that the social leg of

institutions lies far behind mechanical changes. And I don't think we've ever grappled that has been a theoretical academic problem that was discussed in in the universities but in a practical sense our government. Has been more mechanically minded. And when we have a country dealing with us as we like to deal with a country we say that that's in our camp. Well leaving aside your initial assertion that would be hard for us to survive in a world of autocracy are surrounded by them as a kind of hypothetical question I'm not so sure that that is so. It depends on how benevolent or malevolent such autocracy but I just look upon democracy as kind of a biological thing or or like a person and if the viruses are too close to it that have the diseases it tends not to be as strong although it certainly makes it a less congenial world and the potential to consider a more dangerous world.

For example if the democracies intervene between us and the largest exemplars of non-democracy are more likely to be influenced in an undesirable way by the example they set especially if they are overawed by them or especially if they see this democracy not intervening in power plays to protect them. How would you how would have us intervened today. Well you know let me go keep I don't want any of your very. Provocative increase to lapse here. You asked me how we were doing in Iran I believe did you not. And what's going to happen there. Well I would be very pretentious if I said that I knew you indicated it is possibly shortcomings of our own policy and actions that might have promoted the situation in a long long run. In the long run. Well I know that has been alleged that by urging concessions on the part of the shah that we may have opened the floodgates and created this situation. I'm not in a position and I doubt that many but those right on the inside of the

near term historians could make a judgment on this we won't know till we see what emerges from it all. It is however. True that political development was outpaced by economic development that the outward manifestations of the reed that they took Western forms were probably provocative and repugnant to the Islamic mass. But looking at other countries and I think now of Asia in places like Korea the Philippines not notably known for civil liberties. Their leaders do assert which is for many of their people pretty compelling that the prime civil liberties the prime human right if you will is the right to food the right to upward mobility. And that until every man is considerably better off than his grandfather. He won't be worried about the ballot box I don't know whether this is true or not but a number of the things that we just assert is absolutely Givens may not be so. But coming back to

Iran. I think that first we must recognize what's at stake there before we decide what we can do on the basis of the track record of the United States since the Vietnam trauma. It's extraordinary difficult to see us doing anything concrete and especially with the ball game. In the eighth or ninth inning or the tenth inning of attack or whatever it may be it's difficult to see us doing that. But let's see what's at stake stake in this thing. It isn't simply the price of oil. I think we started out thinking of Iran as oil factor which it is of course but it is the question of availability of oil and the availability of the singing sustaining energy of the world particularly of those of our allies. But the position of Iran between the Red Sea and the Gulf bordered by other Islamic countries which have recently shown an increasing degree of Soviet influence the ability of whoever controls that territory to not

only to dominate the Gulf but to dominate the sea lanes to dominate the points around which traffic bearing petrol must go. The ability of the outcome there to influence Arab Israeli peace to go see ations I would hazard the supposition. That the situation in Iran has already greatly made made great the more difficult the task of the negotiators I should think that Israel for example would see a danger in an unpredictable Iran with enormous armament and the degree to which it may polarize the Arab states I should think that want even more territorial safeguards or or other kinds of safeguards. The effect on the Arab states who they may not like the Shah but some of the leaders of those Arab states whose position is not too dissimilar to the head of the Shah and relation to the population may wonder whether they will be backed. As to what we can do about it

we don't know as we speak. What will emerge from this. Even the best case which seems to be from reading the popular Prince some kind of a composition between the Bakhtiari and Khomeini is in the way we would be thinking of this on the eve of this affair an accommodation between two extraordinarily extreme extremists neither of whom are neither whose parties or camps judged by their utterances as particularly congenial or auspicious for the United States future. A worst case analysis makes. Iran who was potentially one of the most enormous diplomatic economic and potentially strategic setbacks or even defeats that United States has recently experienced. Am I completely off track when in looking at those films that come on the news reports that came to say in January in

February of 1070 nine of the mob's allies put it let's put it more positively of the great masses of people out in the street yelling for Khamenei to return or celebrating his return. I my mind snapped back to pictures of one thousand thirteen thousand nine hundred fourteen. Not that there was any immediate similarity but the pictures that the faces in the crowd that sort of blank look on so many people's faces as they were participating. Seem to me to signify that something very basic was happening in the world that there was great social movement in the world unaccounted for by the structure of our time just as it was unaccounted for by the structure of the time that led into the into the great while not saying that we were about to go into a war. But I think that were about going to a tremendous change maybe this is the first one of one of the first signals of that kind of tremendous change.

Take your point just as a TV viewer I would've called there look blank or bland. You know I would say Blanket bland but if they were high on something. All right let's let's put it. I don't know whether you could say that this is a worldwide phenomenon it is certainly in Islam it phenomenon going back to your query as to whether or not we did not foresee these things. I think it's fair to our observers on the spot to question whether anybody could have foreseen this resurgence of an almost mediæval religious frenzy in our country maybe something like the camp meetings of 18 1840. The Mask. Greetings. Well that was without any religious significance but I'm thinking about the change in the what we did Chamberlain when he returned to London and the great Hitlerian crowd just as a kind of a demonstration of crowd for NZ frenzy.

Having said that the Iranians would say that we're simply not crediting them that this is bonafide the revolution. There's something going on in the Islamic world. I think movie directors of the old kind of adventures in the desert have always said there's something happening in the bazaars involved or something going out in the desert. Well certainly there has been and not only in Iran but in the Arab Muslim countries Afghanistan and. Turkey a Turkish country. Pakistan and there has been a development of Islamic fervor revivalism I guess is the word. Is it a peasant is it is it a radical peasant revolution. I don't know I didn't say revolutionary radical if I. I don't know I really taking all the countries as a group I don't know how to divide this sentiment is between urban and rural competence.

If you look at these crowds on the television you see some of the student elements and it may be that the peasant elements in Iran might be less wrought up than the even the students under the veneer of being accounted for students in the western sense. When the crunch cane and many of them found it more convenient to rely upon their culture rather than upon their learning. Well I've known some of the students who are sort of fence sitters been waiting to see what comes out about this one ironic kind of a SAD light of the development of our country the liberals or most of the people over inclined to think that what was happening was the oppressed people the liberals that were coming up. And certainly this is to a degree but I don't think that those same people who diagnosed Iran in this way expected this kind of a demonstration or it would be hard to have it dominated by a theocracy. To have this massive

organization administered by the mullahs who I understand there's some 80000 of them in the country and in places like Tehran there have a control like they can turn people out on the streets or the rest of it. This is sort of so much beyond our ken that I think it's a bit unfair to say you know we didn't foresee it because I don't think the shrewdest observer is going to diagnose this. That being said I would also say as a. Long time pro in this foreign service business that the damage done to our foreign our mature of intelligence in recent years certainly I think to a degree responsible for any lack of foresight planning we may have had. Is there also some of the years that years of it. Of introspection on the part of this country of turning inwards of distrust

of government foreign affairs in general this is made it difficult for us to even to even to define what we should do there much less to do it. Is there a brighter spot in this new emerging relationship with China. After all we've had a rather considerable success over the years with Japan and the Japanese and ourselves will probably be the major suppliers for the next two or three decades if this policy continues. China the influence will be tremendous. Is this a as bright a picture as it looks with this former enemy this is this former Giant of communism that we could not abide. Where you put the question seems to me as you're talking about the future commercial and economic advantage I would tell you to social advantage for us in other words both commercial economic and social be a long time coming. On the economic plane just as a rough yardstick I'd say quite a long time before our exchanges with China equal those

with Taiwan. And moreover I would not be at all surprised. In fact I would hazard a guess that Japan will lead the lead the pack in terms of development of trade and investment which I think you're right but many Americans there of all sorts will be dealing with the equivalent in China. Well I do not believe that. China is playing this card they're playing the American card just as we claim to be playing the China card in an old labrat balance of power operation. This is played for external reasons internally on the part of China to get trade and investment it's true. But I do not believe that this is going to lead to any early modification of the really kind of monolithic autocratic of the wrong word oligarchy controls a single party single state control of China. One of the anomalies of human rights campaign is that we are obliged for reasons of state and six world

security considerations to accept as allies or potential allies as the countries where human rights and civil liberties are are much less well regarded than they are in other countries to which we give the back of our hand. In other words we come down hard as the devil on the chilly and less hard on China. It's true that the people of China are phenomenal the wallpapers and the rest of it. They certainly see a great blooming of human rights. But this brings me to the next question next thing. What comes after. What comes after a drunk shopping. In a country where you don't have democratic means. The great problem is that of the succession of leadership Soviet Union made little progress on that. People are longer said to Sabir shop in the back of the neck. But if you look at their most recent changes of leadership there was a chant of the herd disorderly.

How do we know that this is a permanent policy on the part of China. Well our human rights campaign has been so broad and so general so applauded within our country and so mysterious to those outside of our country. Might we not make it more pragmatic let us say in cases like China or in any other case where there is a dictatorship there we cannot close our eyes to the fact that most of the population are kept under very tight control. Could we not have a first stage such as we have a list of not I would say demands but requests that if you want to be considered to be making progress according to our concept the new service exchange must be full and fundamental reporters must be protected on both sides. That missionaries must be allowed in. You know about Russia or China I'm talking about China China and cases like that and perhaps two or three things so that in the first decade they would understand that if they had to deal with us at all while we cannot change their dictatorship we do insist that they lean our

way. I don't know much how much insisting we're going to do. I don't think we did much insistence about the terms of our recognition our more normalization so-called with China this time. We don't have assurances on Taiwan. We've indulged shopping in this desire to preserve face not to force into an outright declarations that he won't ever invade Taiwan. I don't know what his successor would Senator Frank Church is try to force a government now that he is general of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee due to some sort of guarantees for for Taiwan but our government seems very reluctant in the Carter administration. Well this. I don't often. Agree with Senator Church but I do in this case and I do agree. I hope some of the resolutions that are being talked about in the Senate do emerge I think there are several forms of resolutions. KENNEDY One Javits one I think this is

necessary. I do not think that it will cause done shopping to throw his apron over his head and run out of the kitchen. They have wanted this record because of their fear of China or the Soviet Union. Let me just say parents radically it would be unsafe for them and unsafe for us if they do and I don't say that they do. Should they form the view that they have an alliance with the Soviet with the United States and that the China card is played by us and the US card is played by them or something that they can absolutely count on to counterbalance the Soviet Union. You know I don't think the U.S. has come to these combinations yet in its own thinking and I hope that. The thinking on this doesn't run out run hours because Carter was quite adroit in playing his hand of that card game as you put it. At this time with two years to go it doesn't make

sense in American politics to try a major move like that. I say you know well I hope and and I certainly want to believe that domestic considerations political considerations didn't do that. But they do don't they. Well when and when you take dramatic moves no matter what they are the electorate recalls the man in the White House. The most electrifying things one seems to be able to do these days is sudden turn arounds and can't last with your head I say. We're not likely to see many another thing on this is I wish that all of this had not been accompanied with such a tremendous fanfare and dog and pony show all over the country. It's rather amusing I think that the administration is reported to be a little wary of these senatorial resolutions because it doesn't want to complicate relations with Pete King. You say are with I mean it of us are so he disobeyed Union but.

Or. What are all other other steps they want to complicate relations speaking to. But what good complicate the more than the tremendous build up they gave to this visit. This this is if there's a wound in the Soviet side this rub salt into it. And this makes you wonder why did they do this. It was it was it just euphoria. New actors. Is it possible that we could take Mr. Brace to the Garth farm again. Well it's interesting that apparently the visit of Brezhnev was postponed and the SALT negotiations have been and to a degree delayed because of the China visit. I don't know what's the equivalent of the goth Garth farmer they are the Mt.. It's also I've tried to think what is the reason why

the timing of this act with China. The Senate conservatives attacked this is making the ministrations own point of view mistaken because it will and take a nice chat with the Soviet Union. On the other hand the administration may think well those doubters about salt shouldn't be worried because look what we've done we've turned loose a tiger on the Soviet tail. Well it's one thing is certain and that is that The Times They Are a Changing and I have a feeling I don't know whether you share it with me or not that our present foreign policy is not only fluid but almost uncomprehensible from both the point of view of liberals and conservatives or pros and cons on any issue kind of China and that this administration is not really building a foreign policy but taking steps. Well I have never known a more crowded agenda. And more

things happening simultaneously in all parts of the world. I think that basically what we are doing new foundations and domestic affairs. I think that it may be that the old coalitions are being are going through some kind of protean chain. We are now embarked on a balance of power operation which is I can understand this since we do not have an all powerful United States or one which is ready to intervene or take risks that render a brakesman ship. But the balance of power is a very varying thing and it depends on predictability predictability of leadership constancy of weights in the balance the perception by people who we want to influence but those who have power are prepared to use it and use it. Where the issues and peril points are located I think you're absolutely right. I like to you mention the new foundation I think Harry Byrd said he didn't know what it was but he wanted to build in West Virginia it was going to be built anyway.

I want to thank you very much Ambassador Edmond Gullion hard Ambassador these tired of us and not the Department of State so this is for this edition burna driven. Thank you. The First Amendment and a free people weekly examination of civil liberties in the media 70 program is produced in cooperation with the Institute for democratic communication at Boston University. Why didn't you GBH radio Boston which is solely responsible for its content. This is the station program exchange.