North Carolina People; Jay Robinson, Chairman, State Board of Education

Good evening ladies and gentlemen you know North Carolina has a great tradition of public service. Each of us giving something of our sales help for the state. There's no finer example of that than Dr. J Robinson who was the new chairman of the State Board of Education after a career as vice president the university and superintendent of schools in several places in North Carolina. We're going to meet and talk with a guest in the second production of North Carolina people is made possible by a grant from what could be a bank a symbol of strength stability and service for over a century. Jay it's good to see you again. Have you in North Carolina people with me and taking on the chairmanship of the State Board of Education. This is what happened in the 95 session is quite a chore. Are you OK. Well pretty good I guess it's good to be with the. Nineteen ninety five session made a lot of changes and did a lot of

things which we don't have to. But let's go back a bit oh what are we really trying to do with the schools and you've taken over what's the state board setting out to do as a program to improve our schools. Well the two big things that happened in the lie sation laws over the years the General Assembly had given more and more of the board's authority to the state superintendent. You know this is a big argument. We have an elected superintendent appointed board and the superintendent had been given most of the authority over the years but the board reversed that and said we're going to put the board back in charge and we want you to bring us a plan that gives us maximum local flexibility in making educational decisions with very high accountability and basic skills. We worked real hard last winter and presented a mare plan in the spring and they told us to proceed with

implementing the plan. And we have to pilot units that are working on that this year and hopefully we will have the whole thing in place next year and it'll be a It'll be a pretty dramatic change for education. When you talk about the uniformity of competence and the basic skills are you referring to my knowledge of English and mathematics and some sciences is that we're working oh yes you're in elementary school. We've been testing a lot in subject areas and in high school. We've had a pretty broad testing program. We're saying. An education has to be more than reading and writing arithmetic that the state's going to do in elementary school. If your students can show good progress every year in reading and writing skills and in math skills written that basically in elementary school. That's what the state's going to be looking for. If you can show good progress in those skills

in high school and the Course is basically talking about English and algebra and bow. If if if we can demonstrate good progress in those fields. Been we say the local board teachers principal superintendents should be able to make good decisions and take this takes resources and and have good schools. We believe we've strangled our school. We think we have. Try to do all education over the last several years from the top down and we think we've pretty well demonstrated we have a limited success in that. And so this is a big change. But we believe it's the right way to go. Suppose you had a local school board that polluted the newspaper phrase what happened. What safeguards do you have that when you decentralize this way you have some check on what happens.

Well I hate to put too much emphasis on this but it is part of the plan. First of all this plan says we expect a year's progress for a years work. And but we're going to measure this based on where they are now not compared to everyone in the world. And we think thats fair if they meet those go we say you folks go ahead and do continue with your flexibility and do the things you want to do. If you over reach them by as much as 10 percent and thats going to be certainly attainable with a good effort. Then we'll give you a bonus. The state would give you a bonus for every teacher and certified person in that screw who has been part of over reaching those goals. On the other hand if you under achieve if you can your students clearly aren't making any significant progress in overachievement we say we have seen in some people to help you and if you don't respond we will take the schools over.

So we have a safeguard in that if a group of locals decide they're really not going to educate their students. We have a fallback position and we can move in and take over and we would do that. But we doubt if we'd ever have to do it if we make the goals are reasonable and very focused on basic skills. Now I want you to help me understand something that I was with Chancellor Monti said in city state last week. We are working on a particular project and I said let's look at the top 100 applicants to enroll in city state next fall 96. We did the lowest score in the group of 100 was fourteen hundred and twenty. Not a single student in the group had lower than a 4.0 grade. Eighty percent of them were from North Carolina. Now this says to me that to generalize that the schools are all that poor all over everywhere this is not so. And when you know what happens in the entering class is that

you Carolina State Wake Forest and so on something's something's happening out there teaching some students. What's the reality. Well last Friday eve you hit on something that's very near and dear to me. I am completely convinced our schools aren't as good as they should be and we've got a mike I'm better but they're certainly better than many many people give us credit for being the top students in there and most of their schools are getting a good education. The S.A.T. scores in the university and over 80 percent of our students for the 16 campuses come from the public school. The number of graduates it's been declining for several years it'll start going to. But at the time the smaller the S.A.T. scores have been growing substantially the requirements are tougher than they've ever been. I doubt if I could get in college. But

the suits are doing the best job they've ever done. For the most. But the problem is the S to get a loan in the future. You're going to have to have a better mastery of basic skills than many of their students have had their problem is. Improvements have been going up but the demands have been going to black. So the gap is getting wider. We've got to close that gap for all kids. We have thousands of youngsters that are going through their schools that don't have the ability to communicate with other people and understand technical material they read to write something and the person can understand or to master basic skills in math and a platinum you're going to have to have those skills in the future. We've got to do a better job. But ehre teachers don't get created far and people don't get creative for a lot of things they're doing. And and I hope that if we can show real good progress and document that

people will start supporting their schools again one of our biggest problems is. Folks are beginning to give up on public education and that's a threat to the whole democratic system of government. One of those young people had a perfect score some young boy and I was really taken by what I saw but Dr Monte said if I took the next 100 there wouldn't be that much difference in just a little bit lower and well you get what you are driving for and we all are proud that you're trying so hard. You know this takes a good teacher it means it's got to be some discipline in the room it means it's got to be a supportive structure in the citizenry out there. People worry about discipline. What do you see happening that is going to change what's going on in the school. You know I think one of our problems in public education has been that we've tried to solve all the problems of society and and and we can't show we've done very well at any of these. I think

what people really want of schools are things we can deal with. And it's basically two things. Are the school safe. And are the youngsters learning the things they need to know and that's primarily basic skills. We've got to put a lot more emphasis on safety. A parent has to feel their child is safe it's goo before they're going to listen to anything else we have to say. And they have a right to do that. It may be as much as it hurts me to say that we can't keep all the kids in school. They may be some that have such serious behavioral problems are just so on really that we can't keep them. And as much as I hate to say it I'd rather have 98 percent of them with a pretty good education in a safe well-run screw than let that 2 percent rake. We've got to find ways in alternative education and other other things to get some kids out of school. If they won't. And I believe there's a commitment to do this. School has got to be safe. Youngsters have got

to learn how to read and write and do math so they can learn other things. If we do those things parents will support us. Is the fact that the family is the central unit. Mother Dad the kind of experience you and I had when we were growing up. That's no longer true for all too many children is this one of the basic cultures of some of these problems. I don't think there's any doubt about it and I'd give anything in the world if they ever could be in a good solid family situation where they had the kind of support did you and I enjoyed and most kids have over the years and we have less and less of that and that's a shame. But we can't use that for an excuse. You know what we've got to do is let kids know no matter what goes on at home or no matter what goes on on the street when you're SKU you've got to behave you're safe. And you've got to put out a reasonable effort and if you do we all know most gang to you success. You know I've worked hard on a thing called the North Carolina Fellows program that was to

create a big cadre of bright young people to become teachers. You know I read the statement from the group recently about some of the things that are so discouraging to them pay cond support base. Have you had a chance to talk to these young people. Yes I have and I've watched this program over the years and it's been remarkably successful in getting better prepared brighter more exciting people coming into teaching. But the bad Bharti is we're not doing what we need to do to be sure we help those people and I think there we have a task force working on these. I believe they first of all this behavior is a major thing. Teachers have got to have enough support that they can see that there's good behavior in their class that books are they can't teach. How are they will be teaching and no one will be learning this second thing we've got to do is treat

these people exceptionally well during their first years. We've been guilty in many instances of dumping too many extra curricular assignments to many different teacher preparations and all the things you pointed out in a report. And the third thing we've got to do is is really continue to improve our salaries and fringe benefits. But many many teachers tell me as bad as salaries and things are in they are their best they've ever been and they're not as good as they should be. I'd like to be treated as a professional and have a professional environment to work in. And we need to do better in that. What encourages you most right now from all that you've seen in the last 12 months. Momentum you said you have 10 of these centers or 12 around the state where we're really starting to work now these pretty steady signs for you. The thing that. I guess first of all troubles me most is there so much misunderstanding about what we're trying to do. When you get

teachers and parents to understand that we're really saying it we're going to give you a tremendous amount of flexibility you've never had. But we're going to insist that students learn their basic skills better. If they do we'll reward you. If they don't there will be some consequence that it will be fair and reasonable and there won't be any arbitrary your prescious decisions made against anyone without due process and so forth. When you explain me most people say that sounds good to me. I'm willing to the back end of that. But education has tried everything in the world over the years. There's a new flavor of the year flavor of the month almost we come out with something new something new and they say is this another thing that will go away and here too. We're saying that unless the General Assembly the sads they don't want to give local flexibility if they don't want to hold up a cannibal in Chios and reward us when we do we'll we think this will be

there for the long haul and I think communications our biggest problem is it is in so many things. We know teachers can teach kids to read write and do math and the things that we think are so important. We know they can do that if we can get some of the other things off their back a lot and spend half their time doing paperwork internet plans that someone may or may not look at and the other thing it's so important to teachers is they're well-trained professionals they deserve a real voice in how the school is run. In many many situations we treat them more like factory workers or something. Used to be treated. We've got to learn how to take advantage of their professionally trained staff and get them excited and involved in creating a school and an environment in a situation where kids can really do well and that's that's what we're that's what we're trying to do. Our biggest problem is communication.

How important is it for people who hearing you to understand that this isn't going to happen in 12 months or 18 months that they've got to set a dimension of time here. Isn't this true. This is their biggest fear. You know as I said earlier there are lots of people that have given up on public schools already and are looking at alternatives to public education. So we've got to show some improvement immediately but we'll take a some while to get where we are even tell the people that are saying we've got to found an alternative to public school. Give us a three to five year window to show you that we can really make some progress and get near where we need to be before you make that kind of radical change. I think I think we deserve that. We have we we've had pretty good schools in this state that we really have looked so hot or crazy in and and so top down management that

we've staff old parents local schools from becoming what they could be. If you know anywhere among the 50 states where vouchers or tax credit plans that really were is there any evidence to support this stand surely. It's a pretty neat thing and I'm not really knowledgeable of what's going on I know in Wisconsin they're trying some things in the States and I think it's it's too early for anyone to say yes or no but I know that in the kind of environment of the end if the state gives a parent an option of going to public school r r are taking their money and going to another location that they were going to destroy the public schools as you and I have known them. I don't have any doubt in my mind about that because we'll end up with the bottom half the class the kids hard aged kids who don't learn and wail in the support for public education and we go

on. And I believe we'll move rapidly to the top and bottom class. And as I said that there really is a threat to the whole underpinning of democracy. I couldn't agree more and I think you. I'm glad you get the emphasis you're getting here to get people to understand what the risk is here if we don't watch out. But we're not saying let us go on like we all know we're saying we're going to show you that we can do a better job because you've given us the authority to tell the law to turn the locals loose to do their best if they can demonstrate good progress and good success. We believe that a war a lot of people I'm sure are skewed tending to the curriculum. What all of these young people now take a moment and explain to me how how you go about saying what courses are the relationships the sequence that develops so that you know where Albuquerque is were not taken to saying well you know this

really gets to the heart of everything we're doing. We over the years we've developed an excellent course of study in this state now to recommend it to anyone. But the point I want to make here is I think one reason we failed. We've tried to control education and make education area educational programs what we wanted to be back control in what we put into the program. What we're saying is we're going to leave a tremendous amount of this up to the local school. We're going to say you've got to teach reading writing mathematics and so on. Whatever you do is a local decision here's a course of study that we had to recommend to you but you're going to have a lot of flexibility. But instead of trying to control the education a child gets a blessing and what courses you take and what you use and and you do this and how long you do that we're going to say we're going to amaze you you want the Afghan medias and we think we've been missing the boat there for tat about it ever successful operation we know in this country

is determine what comes out and not what goes in. We think the local school will make good decisions. We don't believe there's a school system in North Carolina that don't think that youngsters understanding of geography and social studies are important. We believe school to know for youngsters to learn music in art is important. If they're going to have a good laugh and appreciate a quality lack. But they gotta have their basic skills first. We're going to insist on the basic skills is the outcome we're looking for. Been say to the different candies and CDs and scoops in this day. You'd be sad. The remainder of the curriculum now on the other hand. The university is saying you've got to have the septics to get in and that's as it should be. And the employers are saying you've got to have these skills. That's as it should be. We're looking for

those outcomes that I see and then leave in more flexibility than we've ever left to the local community. All right I'm living in a small community way back in the western part of the state population base very low. How do you make certain that I get the same basic education that I would get if I were living in Chapel Hill Rowley or Wilmington or this business of the equity of it. The minimum standard minimum requirement. How are we going to compensate for that. Mr. Friday we'll never be able to say that a child in every community is going to get an equal education what they have for this community because some communities will put more value on education and some will put more resources in. But we've got to do some more equalization above what we've already done. We have some candies in this state that if they raise taxes on them. Evaluation they now have it brings in so much so small amount

of money that they can do very little with it. We've got to help the poorest counties. We're doing we're making some efforts in the way of funding. We've got to do more. And the second thing is some schools just don't have the money to build the buildings they have to have. You see the kind of growth that's happening here in the triangle. The same thing in the Triad around Charlotte where I live in Wilmington and we got to give some consideration to that plus the low way out in helping get some additional school buildings in this state. We're way behind five or six billion dollars in buildings and it would absolutely. It would be astonishing if for for some citizens in this day to look at the conditions that some of their kids are are facing when they go into some of these old lapidary buildings that are leaking and and and they're not

comfortable and it's not right. I saw some film footage of your trip when the school system left a whole lot to be desired Well what about the colleges and universities are they getting into this with you and working well with you more than they ever have. I'm real pleased at the response we've had in recent years saying to the schools of education you've got to give us a better trained teacher. Now we're really working on you got to give us a better trained administrator. We believe that training and recruiting and training and retraining school administrators has been highly neglected in this day. We think without good leadership the school in the school system level you're limited I don't want you can do good teachers deserve a good principal. And so they're helping us in that. And in addition to that they're reaching out to the scoops are you seeing much more activity from the universities in the schools on a regular basis. That's very encouraging. It's not enough yet but we're really making progress.

You said on your response form that you were only employed and you're only spending seven hours a week working for the schools would you. You go out and play golf or go fishing. You wear I love it. I'm not much of a golfer but I'm probably left to play as much as anyone ever played and I'm not getting many fish because there's not many fish as they used to be but I left a fish as much as in one or more in the world. But on that end employed at DIA the other morning we were having breakfast and my wife I was getting ready to run off to the meeting someplace and she she said I sure wish you'd take a job is a lot easier if you are employed but I'm having a lot of fun I'm 11 11 11 then it will Monkton and I was born in the mountains worked all my life in the Piedmont and now live at the coast this is a great state. It's how you have to be and do you that and I could never ever give back to this state what they've done for me.

We've got about 60 seconds. So you feel good about what has happened and how we're moving so that the future can be bright. Missed Friday and I'm very optimistic but I'm very cautious in my optimism. I believe that we can save our public schools but we are going to have to commit or say yes to doing more and doing it better. I worry an awful lot about the nice tional and state trend of saying we've got to give up on public schools there are better ways. We've got to all join hands and save our public schools you know those of us in education. I spent most of their 10 in public education fighting each other teachers and administrators or boards and you know that and we got to get the good ideas are abducted out of it. Thank you all of course I'm sure and certain will support that thing. Joanne thank you for joining me today on North Carolina people.

Thank you. Production of North Carolina people is made possible by a grant from what could be a bank a symbol of strength stability and service for over a century.