In Their Words; Oral History with Milton Crenchaw

All right your old and this is eight ends. World War II Oral History Project in their words and we're at War Memorial Stadium in the lion's den Lions Club den interviewing Mr. Milton Crenshaw today and it is Thursday March 13th 2008. Now normally when we have some family and friends here and we go around the room ask who always present because eventually all of these these tapes records will end up in the state archive. Right. And so but we don't have that today. So I'll be conducting an interview today. My name is David Elmore. And if I will I'll go ahead and have you tell us your name and where you live. Right. My name is Milton Crenshaw. I have it it 15:16 South origo Street Little Rock Arkansas 2 0 2 too wonderful. Now first off we try to get a feel

for what the life and times were at that time. And you were. Tell us a little bit about where you were living and what was going on in your life at that time. Before we were in the war where were you living at that time. I have. I was living here and other as I was graduated from the Little Rock school system graduated from Dunbar Junior College associate degree in 1939. I left in September 1939 going to test to further my career. And it just so happened that at that time they started the pilot training program and I was fortunate enough to have gotten into the first class of this as they called it the let me see whatever they called it was in the it was the pilot program there and five black colleges in about two or three hundred

white colleges in in 38 and 39. And I was fortunate enough to get into the first class that started in 1940 at Tuskegee Institute in Alabama now. And you grew up during the Depression What was life like at that time. Well you don't pay too much attention to certain areas and that I was born in 1914 and three blocks from Central High School in 1990 January 13th and we walk past central Alaska. Well they sent you out. Why didn't they at the end when I was born. I started in in 1925 at Capitol Hill High School in the Capitol Hill Elementary School. It was at about 11th Wolf Street I think it was C..

So we would pass continue at Continental elementary school the whole battery street going up to Capitol Hill. Pay no attention to it at that time in history Arkansas had separate but equal facilities. And one of the things that I generally do now when people ask me questions about separate but equal I tell them that in 1896 the Supreme Court of the United States handed down a decision which is the passive versus Ferguson decision stating that if the facilities were equal they would have to be segregated. That went on until nineteen forty eight when President Truman decided that because of the conflict and the trouble that the different army people were having go into different locales and yet they'd have to go to separate places or get in

a fight. So he just said we have one on me and I was working at that time at Philander Smith College with the flight program out it out on the film. And the man in charge at home field told me that they had to open in down at Fort Sill Oklahoma in 1950 three and he wanted me to go down there and to integrate the service. After President Truman had integrated the services and that's why he did. Something new I hadn't heard that's a good good information tool right now. And actually now we're going to start into the interview proper here OK. The world was already at war before America got into it. Right. There was fighting in Europe and rage in what we usually do is ask the veterans before America got into the war.

What did you know about the war as it was going on overseas and how did you find out about it. I didn't know anything about any more than what you read in the paper didn't have TVs like they have now. So we just got a sketch of how the Germans were doing and that they were trying to conquer them and all of the other places they went into France and wanted to go across to England and the United States hadn't gotten really involved in it anymore and just supporting England and France until. December the 7th 1941 as we know it. The Japanese got involved by bombing Pearl Harbor and that's where I became more affected by that bug that hit us right there. And actually that's the next question that we always ask veterans where were you and what were you doing on December 7th 1941 when Pearl Harbor was attacked.

It just so happened that I had left Tuskegee on that Friday before and I hitchhiked to Birmingham about 150 miles to take instructor's rating. The inspector told me to come up to Birmingham and take this flight test and I hitchhike I didn't even take an airplane. So I'm just being a little bit off. The end of the to go to an airport to take a flight test without an airplane. So when I got them inspected told me that he could fly me and I wondered you know you want to know why. And he said Well have you heard that heard what he said. We are at war he says on the 7th which was I guess the Sunday Pearl Harbor was bombed and that put us in war and he had to go back to Miami as a way of getting into his unit so that they could get the pair to start getting ready to go to fight. And he was sorry. So that's when I tell people this that I went in deep meditation with God and asked him to do something because I had no money and I couldn't

do it if he didn't want to go back to sleep with our instructors rating and the Lord had to fix that. This individual this inspector came back to the post after his lunch fluey before he got the plane going back to Miami. And I think we got nine instructors rating and he says going back to Tuskegee but I was filled with the Holy Ghost and I had gotten back and that was the beginning of my real instructing that we hadn't hadn't gotten involved in the army at that time. This was just civilian pilot training course. But after that they had been working on establishing schools for the army and it happened they picked up one school at Tuskegee for training black since it still was under the separate but equal facilities. Now the next day President Roosevelt addressed the nation and it went out over the radio.

Do you recall hearing that address. Can you tell us a little bit. I don't recall because I was try to hitchhike back to test Keaggy at that time. All right. Now we also usually ask about this in the days and weeks after Pearl Harbor and after President Roosevelt's address. And you got back to Tuskegee there what was the scuttlebutt the talk going on between the men on the base or at church or in the town community around there. What was the kind of conversations about about the war. When I got back three days later they had started talking about the war knowing that we were going to have to be involved. In fact young fellow fellows on the one of the ships named Dora Miller. He was a cook and he's got to come over there and he even got behind the one of the machine guns shooting at the Japs like that. And that's you know it was created some excitement and so on. It's one of the funny things about life is that

it appears that things just turn up at the right time. And I happen to be a test gig at the right time when this war started and I was able to get involved in the flying program because I the only one that is from the South ever been a black person that had received the flight instructors rating not on this commercial but I had everything and I was one just just qualified. Know you just took me back there for a second. I know I didn't. I don't know much about the history of the muskeg Institute or a Tuskegee airman or your history so that tell me that again you were the first first person from the South to have received the instructors rating for teaching flying in the United States from the south. That's incredible. Is a good that's good to hear. Very inspiring. Now how long after that before they decided to

get you all into the air corps. They had information going in at that time concerning since we were going we were at war and I imagine Congress is in the process then of trying to figure out what they could do with the blacks. So this is all of the experiment and then many people think that it was going to never materialize. But God has a certain way of bringing things about. That doesn't really make much sense sometimes but it worked out pretty good now. How long. Then shortly thereafter you were were you drafted or did you enlist and how did that happen. Well we came when they started the the Tuskegee airmen. We worked out of Maxwell airbase in Montgomery Alabama. Since that was the headquarters of the Southern outfit. So we had to go to Montgomery go to Max Levey's to get inducted into the service

as civilian flight instructors. In fact there were about four or five others that were there but I was one of the squadron commanders which I have one of the pictures of their showing that we had the supervisors of the Tuskegee airmen as far. I was a civilian a primary instructor and a primary supervisor as we kept growing larger and larger. But how many men were initially in the unit. They start off in fact done. Well we started off it was only four or five of us as instructors and we may have had maybe 15 to 25 Army students for the first class that was going to start in three or four months from there. But we had to get trained and that's where we got our training from the people at Maxwell Air Base in Montgomery. Now I guess did you enlist or had had enlisted you see the army has a certain status is that you can enlist

in the service and that keep you from being drafted from from from another unit. You got I was born in Arkansas. My name is down in Arkansas so therefore if they didn't have some type of way of keeping control of me then I would have had to come back here to get drafted out of camp Robinson I imagine now I'm guessing that you had to go to basic training somewhere. Where did they do that. They did all of that at Tuskegee and back to their base for us to be qualified to be Army Air Force instructors of course instructor I think they called it then. You know it's a little bit unusual because I've never trained in blacks before. So you know this kind of touch and go is as things turned out. Now eventually high school students are going to see this interview. Parts of it anyway. And most of them are not going to

have been in military service. So they're going to want to know what goes on in basic training what happened what do you do in basic training. Now when you had basic training these individuals who were in the real army they had come from different colleges. So therefore they were not the rank and file just off the street. Black boys they were soldiers that had signed up for the war as cadets knowing with the finish they'd be a lieutenant. So therefore they whatever the Army's schooling was they had to go through phases and then come out to their field. And I was one of the instructors they started all the flying part of it and we got the primary instructor and Peetie 13 and AAPT 13. What is that. That's one of the basic airplane from what we called by between has two wings on it. Up up and

down and that's was the ones that they use all over the country for teaching boys how to fly an airplane. Do you have any memories of any interesting students where you're teaching them how to fly a plane have been you ever massive because people ask questions which you know how did the blacks do it since they know that I had given I was an instructor for the segregated Army and then I became you in 5th 1953 down at Fort Sill Oklahoma. That was the first time that I had been assigned to a integrated unit and for the next 30 years I was assigned to different units as an instructor in some officer facility like that now when you're teaching these guys how to fly an airplane. What was the process.

Tell us a little bit about the actual training of the men and what they had to do when they reported to the flight field we take them around to give them an inspection of their plane give them all the things that we could give them and they had already been to the ground school for they knew about the thing and how the airplane operated and so forth. And the next thing we would give them what we call a flight. Yes. And you do introduce them to how they're felt to my knowledge none of it had ever been up in the air space. So you take them up maybe 30000 feet and let him get a custom to looking down and he finds out that you don't see any more than what you see in a bus car. But at the same time when you're in the airplane everything is move. It seemed like the same speed so you don't get that sensation of things flying around you until you get down close enough to the ground and that you can see things passing by you and you would have

two or three lessons like that. And we'd call it getting familiar with the air. So yeah pretty good job. You find some that didn't throw up at some of them that they didn't like. So he didn't make it there. We had plenty of and they didn't make it because of that. Now I actually back up just a little bit here. We usually ask this at the beginning near the beginning of the interview. You were a young man then. And actually I guess prior to your service in the military. What did the word war mean to you. Very little. We've never been affiliated with a war. In fact the blacks didn't have the only time that they would go into the service was as a cook or some type of person

of that status that nothing else was open to black kids at that time until we came in. So that was actually a very important. Thing I guess. Did you have any sense of the historical importance of what you and the men at Tuskegee were doing. Not at all. So when you're gone through history I'm studying right now about 10000 years before B.C. Before Jesus Christ came on the scene. And you can imagine then when you start talking about the good Samaritan out of Matthew's as you're talking about John talking about of Moses and Josh away and everybody listening as if you've been if you're a Sunday school student Josh away at the walls of Jericho walked around and the walls came tumbling down. Well I've gone back ten thousand years before the walls were there. And you can stop and think that this

happened to have been sprayed. I'm assuming out in the desert and people that had been going there for two or three thousand years and they knew that if they could get to this special place in that desert you could get some water. Now you can imagine that after a few thousand years here the people that were there which were the Palestinians and the king and the Canaanites they built a wall to protect their sprain. And it was only that people come in that they wanted to come in and then they had an inside wheels. Like when you if you know anything about the Bible about 15 or 20 feet thick and it went around and this sort of matter must have been made out of rocks and some clay some mud or something because we're not quite sure how they're just going to be walking around them. And the wall fell down with what the Bible says. So we accept it like that so we have come from that. Up until here in that every generation people start

off almost like on a new day a new project. Here we have the space ship that is docking this morning with the international space program up there and 200 feet up which is comprehending almost like it was eleven thousand years ago when this was the first time things came along that's where everything is new. And you just accepted and learned the best you can from that wonderful. Did you ever go overseas. No I was a civilian instructor in charge at Tusky all of the time I was there. OK. And when you say civilian but were you did you have a rank you weren't I didn't have a rank civilian instructors had to be inducted in the Army and I did that on that same private status. So that they can make sure that I stayed in the same place. Oh and.

Was that something unique. We haven't really ever actually talked drones that have been in that kind of relation. So I have my duck. When I was inducted I have the papers over there. And with the numbers on it and everything else. So you never officially had any specific right. No I didn't have any. In any event we don't learn something new. So then I guess because that you didn't have the normal military kind of a training I guess in the sense of you know doing the marching and now shooting and of stuff we took the training in the civilian pilot training program which was in civilian and everything army the services here they have a title to it. And that was the way they were able to identify where anyone is. I give you a number but at the same time they give you another type of status.

Well now I guess they probably gave you a specific coo an equivalent to a certain role that men could write. When I was with. They don't with the Army down in Fort Sill Oklahoma. Fort Rucker Alabama Fort Stewart Georgia I was the equivalent of just 13. In the same peace status like that. And then they call it be the same as Colonel just RTT was the enemy. The same rank as him as a colonel. I didn't say I didn't know them. So I guess I would be calling you Colonel anyway so I guess then the next question would be what were some of your most memorable experiences during this time period in the war in training the cadets and the men to go overseas at the time that you are training you're so grateful to the country

giving you an opportunity to go overseas and not be the foot soldier division. So we had people that went with General Patton in the tanks the red ball outfit. I didn't know too much about them but their job is to take care of the tanks make sure that they were ready to go the next morning to make sure they had had been service all night and so forth and so did a wonderful job of doing that. All of these are things that as you said they are stepping stones to what we came up to and when we came up as a flight program and since they had 100 civilian pilot program just like this and one hundred and one for black people I was in the first school but they had a hundred of them just like ours for how other people see them.

And actually I will take this moment to stop here. I'm going to change out those bad. I don't want to take a chance. All right. Stop this right now. Back now. OK. All right we had to stop the camera and change the batteries out of the microphones and now. All right. Real quick give me tell me what you had for breakfast again this morning. Yes sir. I generally have Cream of Wheat two sources in sandwich and orange juice there where I take my pills and coffee. Wonderful. Thank you. All righty. Now did you become really good friends with some a lot of those men in the flyers that were training you. Yes. So they all callers felt my age to some of. So

you come up and you say well I didn't know them because they all came from different and different black colleges at the time. But you were a couple of good corroboree with people especially when they're in the fine business kind of calm them down also. Now do you have any other experiences that you recall during the training. Like any close calls or interesting flights or anything like that that might have happened while you were training during the war. And flying is a special business and every day is something new and you don't pay too much attention to close calls what you try to do is to become a teacher and let him make a check around the airplane to make sure it's been serviced. Didn't have any water gas. Make sure that you have the cover off of the win

when outfit that tells you how far you are going and make sure that the shocks are taken out of the know runs in the rudder and then you take the chocks out of them because we've had people that would have some type of chalk in the water service and that's to keep the wind from blowing it around while it is on the ground. But you must take that out. Otherwise when you get up in there you couldn't have any way of turning or controlling the airplane. And we've had people many times that have lost their lives because they fail to make that check properly. So we made sure that that was Musse have to make sure that he does that properly. And I guess as a part of being an instructor that you taught the men how to fly. What did you do any of the teaching of the ground crew.

We had ground instructors that took care of that. Our job was to stay at the film and teach that they had it all down as like the Army has had I guess 20 or 30 years of teaching and flying and they had the course already laid out all we had to do is just follow their courses. Oh and I actually sort of go back to what I was asking about close calls. The reason I brought that up sometimes veterans talk about that and that was some of the bomber men that we've interviewed that were in bombers talk actually talked highly about the Tuskegee men and also talked about how when they went in to do their bombing and so forth that they didn't have time to be scared they said more often than not they got scared when they got back on the ground and they realized what they just went through.

That's right. All right. And that's when they got the shake. Got scared. So it's pretty fascinating to hear this story and it is amazing because I and I think this redound to your credit and those of your fellow instructors there that your unit was such a the fame came in because your unit was such a well disciplined extraordinary unit that did their job so well and saved so many people's lives by doing what they did. And so I think that that to you guys credit because you guys taught them how to do all that taught them how to fly and then without that they would have been able to do it. Yeah. That's really why I emphasize that the students that we got were college youngsters at that time. Now I'm not quite sure of all of the other young fellows that had come through the white school because I imagine they'd go to the

farms and out in the towns and have them to come up and then they would sign up to go to flight programs. But the ones that we had were specific for us see coming just to learn how to fly and not only that learn to be mechanics in meteorology and navigators in a cetra. Now there is one thing I do want to actually sort of brush into here and if this is too controversial and you know what I forgot to tell you at the beginning of this interview if you need to take a break will stretch your legs you're going to drink water use pressure. Let me know what's up with the good do that. I apologize I should have told you that at the head of this tape. And now of course you were in the segregated military. That's correct. Before that was the segregated and. And I

believe most if not all of the milk. The. Black group units were commanded by white officers. That's right. They did. Did you guys ever had. How were how were the relations between you guys and the officers and so forth and very good officers where we had came out of Maxwell Air Base 40 miles from Tuskegee. And no one has any trouble with people when you have on the same level. Now the trouble with life is that when you have someone at a different level that hadn't had any schooling and this is one of the things that we talk about now is that we want to make sure that young people get a proper education. I stress in good health good Christian training. And before he's three years old he should be he is. Somebody should put him in the school. That way they can save his life up until he gets eight to 10 years old. We are

slightly behind on the proper way of educating people. Are. I think you're right on that. How did you stay in touch with your family during the war. Well I was stationed at Tuskegee the whole time. And I was an instructor where other people were moving around from place to place and they couldn't do any more as far as family life than they are doing in Iraq. And I was down here at Camp Shelby fixed and getting ready to be shipped out. Right and maybe a second or third time. So it's a strain on the individual individuals when you're away from your family too long at the same time certain things you have to do. Scuse me did you do you were. Well let me rephrase this here. Mail

call was always a height of a lot of the soldiers day because that route boosted their morale. Right. Do you recall any letters that family sent to you or any you sent to them that had just memorable ones that pop out in your head. Well I didn't because I was how I would write my mother every week telling her what we had done and I was so proud of what we were doing. So you have to realize that from this civil war up until 1940 the black soldier if he was a soldier had a tough time even just being there doing right. Because most of them had a limited education. And whenever you have people without education white or black you've got problems. Very true. I'm trying to formulate in my head because we're sort of going off the script here because you keep

saying that there's not a question you know because we never really interview someone in your position. Right. And these questions don't follow that well to that situation. So I'm sort of having a fly by the seat of my pants here. Do you recall any. Tastes or smells to your time in the service during the war or anything that stands out like a particular food or some kind of thing smell or taste that comes out in your mind gives you a memory of something. I am. I haven't had any indication of some things that I imagine black soldiers were involved in because of my strange way of being connected with the service. Now those that we graduated with go to Lattman their base to go to some of the other

places where they were still under this separate but equal had a problem. And other the officers couldn't go to the officers club. So you know that was a fight because you had boys coming from the north and he is the first or second lieutenant. He did He can't go in and get a drink at the club. He had his buddies can go. So you create problems. And so that's the reason why it took a little time for other people in the Pentagon to decide we've got to do something about this. Otherwise we don't have mutiny in these services. No. I'm guessing because you never because you weren't overseas and you probably never experienced C-rations or K-rations Although you might if I don't know can you tell us if you did. Tell us what it was like. Well everything that the regular soldiers were getting I got it uniforms provided by Max lambastes I

don't all of them just come down in a box I guess and they would just hand them out to different units. So whatever the others were getting we receive the same thing same airplanes at Tusky all new and see and not not any that were already worn out. Did so did you ever get to taste see raisins or K Roshan's and if so tell us a little bit of what I don't pay any attention to because if you are out in the field and wherever they bring you that's what you eat. And we were always in the field. Now there is every day without at some stage feel we call and see. Now you know I should. I missed this one. You told me earlier that you had flown in those little biplane right. 13 13:13. And now I'm guessing at some point you graduated up to the planes that the men actually. That's right. After you learn that six months later you go to the 86 then you go that will see

BT. BT something else there but it was a plane that didn't have a say the landing gear. 86 was the one with it and then as we flow with no follow up and it had a different type in powerful engine. After you stay there so long and master that then you went to we I think they would go to the point thirty nine. And the other is you start off with the small type fighter plane and then the P4 is after we gave that we had trouble with it. Not us but I'm the services had trouble with the thirty nine. They gave them to the Russians and they we came and we got the before and then up there from there. We thought a P-51 and so forth. In any time the plane didn't work out good will they will get rid of them because we're in the fighting business now and then they will bring you all of us down. Now I wouldn't have involved with that. They did all of that and another field. We would go to they would after we got through with them in the primary we

send them over to Tusky airbase still segregated but it was separated from Mackler and able under match their bases. Now can you tell us a little bit about what it was like to fly those kind of fighter planes in the 40s and the 39 people the ones on planes fly just about like in other words it has more power it's kind of like you've seen people driving little trucks and then you see them drive medium size then you have like Wal-Mart has big trucks. So that's the same with airplanes. We have over for over and over Jacksonville now I will say the C 130. That's a big cargo type plane and his job is to load it up and take it all the way to Afghanistan from here. Take troops all the way and then come back and all of the Jacksonville integrated I've spoken

with him many times and all of them get along well now say it takes a little time for people to really become acclimated. Custom do different people different procedures and when you stop and think about a country that where you have people from various countries and Paris spoke different languages. But it didn't take long for me to start learning one language and become one people if you don't become one people sooner or later so might as well come over and take your place away from it. That's the way life operates. I think you're right now actually we never did go into this subject area yet either. But when you taught him flying didn't I guess and also when you upgraded to those fighter planes you had to teach them how to do the shooting as well how to hit targets and they would go to different fields like down to Florida to the Eglin Air Base to

learn how to shoot and so forth. So the army is so set up to you know one person does all of that. It has units and that's their specialty to take them down in Florida I guess where the water is and where the targets are and get Target training down there. And once they get you they take everybody down there according to his you know way of doing things you know take a unit down and just a little bit on the funny side. But at the same time they they work it out. OK. Well that makes sense. Actually I do because of my ignorance I don't know how they had done that. And because I do know that that's another factor after flying is to teaching them how to combat combat aerial material. I mean shooting at night is now the next question is did what was the supply situation like did you guys always have all the equipment and tools and supplies that you needed or what they were having

shortages or problems that you recall this army was well prepared going in the business since the Revolutionary War and upgrading things according to the need and whatever the youngsters that come through at that time in life. That's what he gets the best equipment that this country can provide. They don't shirk themselves one way or the other and it's a strange situation when you have to have a segregated segregated that. But like the Bible says this too will pass and it has gone by the way of the excuse me. Now in our questionnaire here we have a thing here because sometimes we discuss it and sometimes we don't know how relevant to the interview. And I know that you weren't on the actual ground combat and everything but you had

mentioned earlier about the red ball men that were doing the red ball service. Were you aware that supplies were being sent to the front by the black troops. And if so tell us a little bit about what knowledge of the other branches and services that the African-Americans were serving in what they were doing for our country. Still they were and they were under the separate but equal. And therefore since we had the tanks and if a person started thinking about it that they started back from the Civil War what they call the buffalo soldier and then they became with the rough riders and President Roosevelt going up San Juan hill over there. And for that to the first world war when they went over steel with horses no airplanes and nothing like that. And they went to France and still others as a service outfit. Now when the Red House deal on the segregation facilities their

job was to be service in tanks making sure that the tank boys had tanks for the next morning so they worked all night every night mud rain whatever it was that their job is to keep the tanks running. And you can kind of feel like that you as you make step from a little boy right up until he's five years old and he's still learning. Well that's the way the Army had the blacks involved in certain things as they did them better. They gave them other assignments and all of these are what we call stepping up in life becoming a part of the unit because as long as you're on the segregated side of life they you when you have problems in the country has problems. So once they learn that you can't afford to start fighting different battles and have everything separate. We will all be able to survive.

We're going to switch gears a little bit here and it's sort of a lighter side of the war. What was your favorite kind of music during the war years and how often did you get to hear it. Well I came up in the church. I'm a Sunday school teacher and therefore I didn't learn anything with church music and everything. I'm going to a sanctified church tell truth about it. So if a fellow came up in Tennessee where you would have the grand opera he learned Western music or country music and whatever you come up with that's what you get accustomed to. And now that you have a voice with the hip hop and by some strange kind of music you strange see all of that and all it's a matter of where you came up and what you are accustomed to.

Did you ever get to see any girl go see the movies or watching the sports teams fall and the sports teams during the war. We didn't have TVs at the time back then the only thing that you had was radio you could kind of get some information and you could stop and think if you go back in 1918 they didn't even have the radio so to speak. So we are in the process of moving from where we say the end internet to give you an example 10000 years when people call them the seagoing folks. And you read about that and you sit up and think about the people on this side of the Mediterranean where people of color the news from Asia Africa still from color and sense.

Now the sea going people are those are more than likely made some type of a boat where they could go different places on the Mediterranean water and that moves up for one thing to the other until eventually they decided right when they say Alexander the Great that came to Asia. Say three thirty five thousand years before he got there they had been going out on different assignments there and they called them the Sea People. And then you'd have the see people that would also like the Romans came down the same way everything was down where my folks came from mostly you know about 58 B.C. And here they are on the water and on the land. Like I said all roads lead to Rome. So they were the greatest fighters of that time.

And that's the way life has gone. So by the virtue of that here it is 2008 and we don't know what the future has in store. But you have to be thinking about what did you do in the past. And that gives you an idea of what kind of battles you will have in say 21 of the twenty five hundred. We see the great light we play with. Very true. What did you guys do on the base to entertain yourselves especially when you all weren't able to get off base only on a pass or something. What job do to entertain yourself. Well the Army has a smooth way of having people like Bob Hope and all of those kind of entertainers would dedicate their time to go to the camps around the United States even when you had the segregated camp they'd have to kind of comply to a certain way. But at the

same time I am having a great deal of finesse. They could go to places and tell them that if my boys can come in here and eat like people we are going to play all of these are the kind of things that God has a way of making sure that he unites his own people because they belong to God. So and I only think about it of people will believe that. So as long as they don't believe me we have to keep working with them. That's what they did a good job of going around. They go overseas entertaining to make sure that they brought some of America to people overseas wherever they were. And that's been I guess from the time they first are going to out of the country. Did you get to see any of the USO shows. Oh yes. They've come to Tuskegee and at the airbase and go out and see them. And whenever you were in the service there you still have segregation. But at the same time when they can they can push it around in a way they won't

because the people from the Pentagon in charge. So whoever is in charge of running the show. Can you tell us any of the people who came to visit during those shows we saw Lena Horne. And as I mentioned neither are these red Skelton and all of those entertainers there that were pronounced at that time so in the second world war. You don't pay too much attention to other girls. They would come from and from the service they had everything was scheduled so they would go around and make sure that the guys got the best that this country could offer. And that's wonderful. Now when you did get leave Where did you go and what did you do. Well my goal was to go down from Tuskegee the closest place they could go get some Look if the girls would be down in New Orleans go to

Atlanta see places within 200 miles. And the reason why. Because on Monday morning he's going to have to be back at this to start flying again because I didn't go anywhere because I'm in charge and my job is to make sure that I thought I was working for the good serve for the government and therefore I didn't take any foolishness like that. Do you recall any humorous or unusual events during your time in the service. Well I would imagine you run into a great deal of different people and therefore you find people that had left the South. It's like in the 30s and 40s going anywhere from St. Louis to Detroit New York California and it almost makes you think about

the same way that people travel around ten thousand years ago. Over in Africa and over in Asia. Those are the only two places that I knew of. Now we know that as I call them the boat people they started but the boat people came from were say Greek. And then a couple hundred years later here comes the Romans with all of their paraphernalia. And as you may have come down on the boat but both of them say like I told you all roads lead back to Rome. So they were in charge of the world at that time. Well I guess also dealing with a bunch of young men as being an instructor you got to see a lot of young men. Some of them were just out of there out of being teenagers probably and I'm guessing you know young boy young men and young boys like that like horsing around pull pranks

on each other. Do you recall any pranks that anybody pulled that you might remember. I imagine they did it on themselves. I was their age but I was struck down by the head hit person. Unfortunately that but that's the way God put it there like that. So we don't know where. I imagine they pull all kind of pranks because young people enjoy doing things that are a little bit on the strange side and all but by the virtue of that very seldom did you find officers fooling around with enlisted personnel. See this as a distinction between rank and so forth and I'd had happened to be in the rank of being in charge and you can't be in charge if you're fraternizing with the masses may not have been the way that I thought about it but that's the way I look at it. This next one is a couple of questions sort of together and that is how did you

feel about women coming in during service during the war because they did come in they were actually allowed to come into the waves and the wax and some of the other services that allowed them to come in and do something. What did you think about that. Here again is that I went to the library several days ago. Speak of it from over in North Carolina speaking to the Sunday school and the Sunday school that had started and that's like after the Civil War and maybe it maybe had gone back further than that. Now you have to remember that the White women and women in general didn't get to vote until 1920. To me that way back then they didn't have good education. Nothing that you would imagine that the church provided an out for them and that was the Sunday school and all of these kind of things. Now when she's describing the whites and the schools and the Black Sunday schools now and there's a

vast difference in the way she was describing it in that White said plenty of other things that they could participate with. But the black youth the only way that he could get anything as far as learning was concerned was through the church. So he had an up on people that had gotten sent Sunday school. Now that lasted up until a few years ago where people can come and go as they see fit. But that's that's the way she described it in that it was an uphill and then like Susan B Anthony you had people that fought all the way from us from the civil war trying to get some rights and that was an uphill battle. Did you ever know any or talk to any women who work in the factories building bombs and building planes and things here in the United States. I didn't I read about them. But here again if they didn't have that until out in the 40s that when they started like the Rosie the Riveter rift and all of this

life as I was telling them in have pushed for 50000 years or longer maybe a million years has been on a progressive time. And all of it was walking up until the time when they came out with the trucks and and then airplane and now we have the space ships going up there Sea doing things and everything is on the progressive movement. So it's nothing that at that time whether you're talking about a hundred years ago when they didn't even have a telephone you know 100 years ago let's make like India for 9000 or three or something like that came up with the model T. And that meant that it was going to have to be a road program so that they could ride around and enjoy. Now you've got most trucks and cars and you can service right now. And we have no idea what's going to happen in the next 50 100 years. Very true. Do you recall ve day victory in Europe.

Yeah. Was that the one years after the war was over. No it was. That was in before victory in Japan V-J Day. Oh well if you can recall that would you tell us about V-J Day and what you were doing and where you were when that have won in Japan. Yes sir. What was over or was over. I was still the same instructors It was in the war started. So I'm When the war was over I had a discharge get out of the army just like I had to go when the army with us we would have matched with you. I have some general give me my papers stating that I had chair of the service and now that there was it was not needed anymore and they were deactivating the service. Now at that time in 1946. Separate but equal was still the law of the land as passed by the Supreme Court in 18 96. So here you have these people still in the

service lieutenants and some of them captains maybe and he had nothing but conflicts forever. Like I told you everywhere they go up north or somewhere they would have fights and so forth. So President Truman came along after Roosevelt died in 1940 eight. He says From Missouri to ease up and say well this is crazy what we are going to do is put out an executive order desegregating the services and you can imagine southern commanders said not on my watch. So that's the way life goes. I heard about that and I was I had a flight problem right here in Little Rock Arkansas Philander Smith College out in my field. And Mr. Holbert told me in 1953 I was working with him he said you have all kinds of information about going to Fort Sill Oklahoma. They had an

artillery field and they're small airplanes like I was using. And he sent me down to Fort Sill to see about that. So I got down to Fort Sill at nineteen fifty three and still the civilian instructors because they had about 200 there they were taking their flight training first flight training down in San Marcos Texas. And here I am a young black boy coming in here a flower of 200 200 other civilian pilots. And I had to go first go and talk with the commanding officer and his staff people had had to take a written test. And after that I had to take a flight test. One of the instructors. I imagine you came back and say that I guess I guess he said I can fly. So the commander decided that since he going have no blacks on him or his

foot rocker the foot still flying at that particular time he didn't like it at all and he hasn't made that he wasn't going to harm me so I didn't really care because the job was only paid for $800 a year and I was just in caught here in our little rock Arkansas down in place and making two or three hundred dollars a day. So it didn't faze me at all and you know I'll let him know that that's what my cup of tea anyway. But young fellow actor we had had a discussion and I kind of like your attitude. And he says I'm going to talk to the commander and then I'll let you know he's a man. And by the way my name is Nathan. I'm a colonel. My name is Nathan favs. Oh OK. That didn't mean anything to me I don't know if you know who they are. And you know.

OK. So. So I came on home and he just said that I am Princetown. And two weeks later he sent me a letter to come to Fort Sill. Now I bring up the story since you mentioned that we haven't heard anything in eighteen sixty five. April the 1st. Richmond Virginia. You had two presidents Ulysses. You had to President Lincoln the president of the Confederacy there and you had probably lead the general under a Confederate president. And I say Ulysses Grant. Now under Robert Lee he had two fellows one name General Nathan farce and General Joseph Johnston.

Now General Joseph Johnson was my great great grandfather. His son is buried over here in the white cemetery Little Rock and all my people right across the street in the cemetery right now. They came over here in 1870 but for some particular reason life is strange isn't it. And here this guy just took a liking to me and told him that I just told the commander that he wanted this border come back here and get a job. So I thanked him for that. Never saw him again. No one else. I apologize. Got a warning light on this thing for some reason and I don't know what. Maybe I'm too hot. I've already put the batteries in but the carrot. Get here and start to change batteries. All right. So there's this gentleman that had wanted to come

after work. His name was Nathan Forrest. Right. So he was his ancestor was the guy that was under Robert Lee and the author you and your ancestor was the other one. One or both of them were Southerners but Robert leave was a Southern man and Nathan far as he was from down in Mississippi. And my great great grandfather from over in Alabama we came out of Union Springs. Now listen my folks came over from the plantation down there. This brings out about now this other Nathan Forrest is that the same guy that that swamp of the swamp or general he was the one that went around. Almost like Sherman on the other side. OK. He was one of these bad guys who went around doing things because he came just the person that had that type of power. Right. Right. Now of course after the war he continued that where they were in this way to service the heroism or whatever they tried but they call it that.

That is actually your right. Life is so interesting and strange sometimes how things like that happen and so on. So that's pretty neat story that you told there. In the what was your thoughts on. President Truman desegregating the services. What was your thoughts about that at the time if you could recall them. Well I went in the service at that time. In fact they didn't. Register with me. Tell the truth about it because I was separated from the service when the war was over. I had a penny of the people that I had flown that taught flying still in the service. And naturally whenever you have people that are having problems somebody will have to come to their rescue as a way of solving the problem and being the president. That was his way of just

coming up there with an executive order this part of that thing that happened is over. So you appreciate anything that comes along that's going to be better for not only me but for my people. So we appreciate anything that comes that way. He was the president that the buck stops here. Buck Stops Here. Now in the days and weeks afterwards were you able to take advantage of the G.I. bill after that. No I didn't get a chance so that the army ever set up and that if you put 90 days or more then you will be involved in it. Mine was just getting involved. He is signing up at Maxwell Air Base. Went through the same procedure got the same serial number which I have over there. And by the virtue that you don't qualify because you haven't put in harm in the process of getting a light mark on prey on those people that if you get a good president that's going to read

rectifying anything that they may think that needs to be changed. And did you continue in the flying business afterwards I know you said you'd worked up there at Philander Smith and at the out of the field there for a while did you continue that. I am as I told you I went in 1953. I left field and went to see him stay down there as an instructor until 1955 we got transferred from Fort Sill Oklahoma to camp rocka in Alabama. And then nineteen fifty seven I imagine they changed it from our camp to Fort Rucker and I stayed down there until and then I left them in 70 and we started a new field over at Fort Stewart Georgia. And I went over there as a special instructor for them in the

chief pilot for the commanding officer. I stayed over them till 19 in 1980 1970 I guess who I said Me too because I think in 72 and I think we had the Cuban flare up and of course I flew a Mohawk plane over to one of the fields I think up and Fort Benning. We were know getting together in Fort Benning there just in case we have conflict with Castro. And so all the servers that were down in that area had to be ready and so I took one of the planes up there and in 72 I think it was. Did you stay in contact with any of your service buddies during the you know during the war since then. Have you stayed in contact with any of them. I call them and write them from time to time say one of the nice things that we have

that the Tuskegee Airman have camps and each state fact one hears out at Jacksonville we call it the is to a chapter. It was the last chapter chapter out there. And I was one of the caterers. I was his instructor when he was a student coming through and I he's really do that he had made it over in charge of this check and now our job is to go out and speak and recruit and try to get young people to go to the different schools get them interested in staying in school get a good education. And if they want to get into the service to go to go and we have a two million dollar scholarship fund in Washington where we try to give for a scholarship we have a young fellow from here in Little Rock Out in the field in Colorado Springs a fine program and he has just finished

the preps part of it. Some of them if they aren't qualified to go right into the flight program they'll give them prep training to beef them up there. So his mother told me that he had just graduated from there and he's getting ready to go into the service and go into the real flying part of it. That must be wonderful to be a part of a really good program like that but it makes you feel good. Did you join any veterans organizations. And if so have you attended any reunions or anything like that over the years. Oh yes. In other words I go from time to time to different than say I was. I flew as a civilian longer than anybody else living fathers father service. So therefore I'm more involved in keeping up with people than you know any of this live in. I'm the oldest one. I imagine this started it all from scratch the first day that the Army brought their COBRA

planes and have used those up and for the next 50 years. Do you still have your pilot's license. I don't keep it up but I have flown I have a fellow down here. Cheryl Arkin saw that and made him a couple of plays he's come up and buys it planes as people that had wrecked and take them back down to Sherilyn and I flew I was down there we had a program down in the last year and I went down and flew from Sherrell over Pine Bluff and that first time I'd been in a plane in a number of years. Well we're to the latter section of our interview here and this section is mostly about opinions. So it is not wrong right or wrong answer what to think about these certain subjects that we have here. And the first one and I can already tell that this is an important one to you. But first of all that we ask is Why should students study history. If you don't know where you came from and you certainly don't know where you're going.

And that's no answer number one. So as I told you before that my thinking about. Life is that you try to make sure that you come out or you have a child that's normal and been checked then he wasn't given any diseases or anything that's going to be a handicap for him. And then as soon as you can you start teaching him about Sunday school not God and then you try to get him in other courses anyway if you can capture his mind before he's eight or 10 years of age then you can you can pretty well figure that you have someone that can say all of these different prisms so you my people spend 60 percent of of the prisons are prisoners that like black boys. And that's way too much. So you see I have a concern with that. We have the reason why. But at the same time we have to get the funds as a way of making sure that we try to educate them properly so that they don't become problems

to the country. That's a good way to put it too. I agree with you I think education is key here. Now in the last 60 or so years there have been a lot of changes in our society in technology and science medicine and so on. And there's also been a lot of changes in our communities in our country in our sense of our community what kind of changes have there been. In other words. Are we still our brother's keeper. We are. We don't always act like it. One of the nicest things about knowing your history. You have a general idea where you came from. And how you people did doing that and then you started thinking about what do we need to change. 2008 and the next 20 years maybe.

And then you started thinking about what's going to happen in the next 200 years. And what kind of world do you really want now. If you want a Hellery grazing world you stay like you are keep going just like ya. But if you want a real world realizing that it took a long time for people to know that you had a fingerprint. Now somebody put the fingerprint in the three of us and all of the other millions of people but not about the same DNA and all type of other things that people have that are together but yet a little different. Somebody did that on the thing we call them God's seal of the spirit that he had to have a record. So you gave everybody a different fingerprint which makes sense now of people that don't believe that they figure that the people that believe that it have to be crazy. Because he said I know I'm not like

so and so but at the same time you have to understand that we came from the same source and we have the same kind of love and the same kind of hatred so therefore we have to kind of work together as a way of trying to learn to live together. You're right about that too. Now we earlier in the interview I had asked you about what you were what you knew what the word was meant to that this question is what do you think of war as a means of resolving conflicts in ten thousand years or more it had resolving it yet. And I don't think that is going to be on any changes. You can have unity and a good world when you are developing all type of equipment to try to kill everybody

from the beginning of time. When man found that he could hit somebody with a club the other fellow got a clue. And it's been going up from one club to the other nuclear weapons right now we have Him of people one of the people who would finally get them because that's what God has people out here for. He has to keep. I would say confusion. But he said if you can't get together make sure you destroy yourself. In your own words what does the word democracy. Democracy. I imagine it has a a floating type definition and that is that where a select group will look out for the good of the entire group. And we as a United

States are interested in all of the states no better no worse. But at the same time we want to make sure that we have opportunities for people within our state and within our country. And if we can do it like that of people. Well three I guess he wanted to come here all that. Now this is a related question and that he is in a democracy like we have here in America. What are the responsibilities of a citizen. First you have to learn what your responsibilities are and you don't have to be smart enough to know that somebody might ask you a question like that. Well as Jesus Christ I'm one of the greatest commandment he says not hesitating Thou shall love the Lord thy God with all your heart. And he goes on down and say isn't that you love your neighbor as you love yourself that you love yourself love your neighbor.

That's democracy. Now this next question I usually ask because well we ask. But I think that veterans men and women who have fought in wars and then been in the service and those that are overseas today probably feel this question more keenly than the rest of us in America. But what is liberty to you. And when he said that you you give me liberty or give me death that me that you have the right to take care of yourself and your family the people around you and all the other things. Without having to have that rifle under your pillow while you're trying to arrest liberty is a piece of mind. As far as I could think of you know that's actually one of the better descriptions I've ever heard on that too. That's a that's a really good one

really good concise one. Now the next question is actually a two part question and I will ask this first one here what is the most important problem facing America today. Let's say the most important pod face in America is truth. The hardest thing in the world. Is trying to raise a family and the people don't tell the truth. The hardest thing is to have college. They don't teach the truth. The hardest thing is having an army to protect this country. That would be phased in over things that I'm not telling the truth

and he says you know the truth is truth will set you free. Palin asked Jesus what is truth. And if what you think it is I think you're right and that is a good comment there too I believe. Now let me flip that question around the other half of that question. Flip it around here. What is the greatest hope for our country today that we all learn how to resolve differences and make sure that we give proper training to the people that are going to give us the most trouble. So in other words. And as I said people have over 60 percent in the prisons she had. That's that's not helping the country. So when you when you find out that they are the problem what you want to do is get this rascal educated early so that he's going to be a citizen and not going to be a hinderance if you can help it.

Before I ask these next last two questions I will ask one today and only here and I just throw it in here every once in awhile because I like to hear the comment on it but it's in your lifetime. But in particular during the war and since then how has your faith helped you. Imagine when a person would ask me a question like that. What he knows is that. This is a strange world. And by the virtue that I came up in a Christian environment we have been maybe brainwashed. I thought that the golden rule of helping one another. I am my brother's keeper.

And what you try to do is to make sure that you teach your kids and everybody that you come in contact with that you are your brother's keeper. Wonderful. Well we're up to what I call the Wopper question. I don't mean that to throw you off or anything. But actually the question is is that you've lived a long life and you've done a lot of things you've seen a lot of things you've been a lot of places and you probably picked up a piece of wisdom or two here and there along the way. And what I want to know is would you share that with the up and coming generations and what is it what would it be. I mean what is it and why would it be something that they would take with them. My being a Sunday school teacher that's not a hard question at all. In other

words Jesus told them that you build your house like you build your life or you build your life like you've built your house on a solid foundation. Now if your foundation isn't solid in the Christian principles that have been laid out by the other older people they have found out that you can't have a good life down and you don't have a good foundation. And I take that for granted. I tell people this that my boy came back here right after the 19th. He was about two or three years old in 1946 and I put him in the church. My father is a pastor and the lady taught him how to play the piano. About two and a half. Now this soothed the mind that way you can kind of have a kind of a neutral understanding I imagine. And at four years of age you went to the Catholic school and you got a pretty good education primary type education.

You graduated from there. I'm still in the service of different places graduated down in Ozark Alabama which right out of four out of Camp Rock Fort Rucker. And a kick in back of a boy I was born take them back in 1960. Skagen 15 a and headed where he was able to get in medical school at 15. Doctor 22 and he's 65 now. So it pays off that when your father got a program in planning world war to the last question here is is there anything that you'd like to add that I had not asked that you'd like to put in here. Let future know or anything like that. I think I've answered enough questions. There were here. He says if he did all of that he must then walked like Moses. Well Coach do you have anything you'd like. That's wonderful. Well let's see. That's it for the interview. What more do we hear before we stop. Is I'm going to back the camera

up a little bit. We're going to do sort of a video portrait. OK. All right. And if you'll just look into the lens here and count to 30 in your head. OK. All righty wonderful.