City in Sound; Argonne International School of Nuclear Science Engineering

Good evening, this is Jim Herbert bringing you the City and Sound. Tonight we take our City and Sound microphone to school, one of the most unusual schools in the nation, a school that is entirely a product of the age of the atom, is the international school of nuclear science and engineering, a school born in the mind of the atomic scientists who directs Chicago's world famous Argonne Laboratory, Dr. Norman Hilberry. We'll meet Dr. Hilberry and other members of his staff. We'll also meet some of the students who come from every part of the world to further their knowledge of atomic science, then carry their new knowledge back home. Chemistry? Yes. Is that your field back in Burma? Yes, I'm a chemist.

Teaching in Burma? No, I work in the Burma atomic energy commission. What are your plans in relation to your studies here as they will apply to your work back in Burma? My specialized field is reactor chemistry. I have to work in the reactor chemistry department, but as soon as I go back, I will work in the radiation laboratory. Have you been here long? Yes, I arrived at Penn State University last September. I studied one semester there, and arrived here last month. Penn State is cooperating with the school here. Yes, they have contact with the U .S .A .C. How about the atomic energy program in Burma? Is it far along? Yes, very far along. We just started, and last month, International atomic energy agency group visited Burma, and we hope to get some assistance from the agency. What are you going back to yourself?

I'm going back when I'm going there. Yes, I'm going back in June. Well, thanks very much for talking to me. Have a good. Thank you. Well, Doctor, you're the director of the Argonne National Laboratory, and I think you're also the man who thought of the idea of a School of Nuclear Science and Engineering, which is now formally called, I guess, the International School of Nuclear Science and Engineering. Well, that's at least mostly right. Actually, we discussed the matter of a school in the fall of a 54. The atomic energy commission proposed that we go ahead with this. Long about, in fact, it was the night before Christmas on 1954, and in order to make life simple, they said they would have the first students here for us on the first of March in 55. So the school has been on operation now ever

since March of 1955. The general idea was that based on President Eisenhower's Adams for Peace program, that the most useful thing we could do here at the laboratory to implement this was to see to it that the scientists and the engineers from abroad got the specialized basic trainings that were necessary in order to make the overall atomic energy business effective in their own countries. This would really make it an effective approach. When we talk about people from various countries, this includes as many as 30 countries, doesn't it? Actually, the last count I saw, I think it's 45 or 46 countries that have had

students here. This is also new to us, actually, as people, it was only 18 years ago, say that the whole business of atomic energy became a reality, and it seems almost impossible to me to think that as many as 46 countries now could actually have some sort of nuclear energy program going on. Well, they're doing it. Now, it varies all the way from some countries who are primarily approaching the thing from the point of view of education. I clear on through to other countries that are building full -scale nuclear power plants to provide the electrical energy that they need for their industrial civilizations. These students that come here, doctor, to the school, have they had any initial preparation in this field? They have all of them, two things. First, the United States has

lagged somewhat in the matter of languages due to our geographical location, so we have insisted that these students must speak English and understanding. They shan they do. The other is that they must all be graduates of their own universities. This is varied widely from folks that have the equivalent of about our BS or almost this through to folks that have the equivalent of our doctor of philosophy degree and 15 years of experience. It has been a rather heterogeneous group which is added to the excitement of trying to handle these on a broad base so that each would get the kind of information and the amount of training that he was capable of absorbing. Normally, in a class, everybody has about the same background and this

makes life simple. How long do they spend here? At the start, they were spending about 34 weeks. Recently, we have been having them for half of this time. Clearly, the national laboratories haven't any business competing with universities. If the universities can do a job, that's where it ought to be done. After we had given this course a couple of times, it was clear that a couple of the universities were in a position in which they could do part of the job, so that since then, the students have gone to the universities for the first half of a period and then they've come here to use our specialized equipment and our specialized people for a sort of finishing school. It's even getting now so that the students that we have turned out have gone back to their own countries have installed this same

sort of training in their own countries so that in their own universities, so that we are getting students now that our second generation, you see, they come in with the training which our alumni have gone back and given them so that part of the students now come directly into the second half of the course here. Now, I've got a question, Dr. I guess one that might occur to many laymen, you call it the International School of Nuclear Science and Engineering may be good to clear up the difference, broadly speaking, between science and engineering in the nuclear field. Well, of course, by now, most of my engineering friends will have been on the telephone already blasting you for insinuating that engineering is not science. The actual fact is that we have specified between things like straight physics and

chemistry and biology as the science side of the thing and the application, which we have called the engineering side. This doesn't mean that the engineering side doesn't have just as much science in it as the other, but the purpose that you're approaching is slightly different. In one case, it's just an understanding of the laws of nature in the science side and in the engineering side, the implication is that you're going to try to make this understanding useful to somebody. The practical application. Practical application. Dr. Who is the head of the school itself? Dr. Roland Tacker is now the director of the school. I think if you don't mind, I'll go along and talk to Dr. Tacker about those affairs of the school and thanks a lot for the background on the whole operation. I'm also glad that you're out here to take a look at it because we think it's rather exciting. I do too. What is your name? My

name is Rambush from Germany. How long have you been over here? I came here as a first of November last year. Why did you come here to the school? My government sent me here to learn all of what I need from my job in Germany in the reactor field. Especially I have to give lessons in reactor thermodynamics. You've worked in this field in Germany before? Yes, in the university. Not really in the reactor field but in the thermodynamics field and that is very important for the reactor business too. What is your background? Mechanical engineer. Are you a graduate of? Yes, I have a PhD. A PhD? Yes. Is the PhD of course the same in Germany as it is here? Or I think it's maybe the same about, yes. Have you always concentrated on this field of study? What field? In nuclear science? No, never before. I

hope that I have success and can learn something here. One thing I wanted to ask you, you speak English very well and I understand that as one of the purposes for admission to this school. Yes, it's right, yes. I suppose you've studied it all your life in Germany. No, no, no. Unfortunately I had never heard English in my school but last year I was obliged to begin my study in English and you see that I can almost understand what you speak. You've been speaking English how long then? Seven months perhaps. And now you have far more than you need to get along in the school here. Yes, the first time I had big difficulties to understand the teacher because I must say it. They forget always that we are foreign pupils but no, I can understand each word. Dr. Taker, do you mind if I just walk you on? Sit down, talk to you for a minute or two? No, thank you.

Appreciate it Mr. Erwin. Now what goes on here at the school actually? Well you fit a rather typical day at the international school. We have two days of classroom work per week and three days of laboratory work. Actually one of our biggest our strongest points in having the international school at Argonne is that we have available to us vast and expensive facility resources and at our disposal the talents of many noted scientists and engineers in the laboratory. We place a rather heavy emphasis upon the laboratory work. For during the training program because it is in the area of the laboratory work that the participants have had the least experience. For the most part this the peaceful uses of atomic energy

are so widely known and there are so much written on the matter already that they can do a great deal of desk work and library work back in their home countries. What we can read. What we can really give to them is what comes through laboratory work, laboratory associations, associations with people who are the research scientists and development engineers of the laboratory. Now Dr. Hillberry tells me these people come from 46 different countries and I gather it's not really proper to call them students. No this is a term which we used in the earlier sessions but it was not without some repercussions of sorts. The men are graduate scientists and engineers the range and age from 23 years of age to as much as high

as 63 years of age. Many of them have had extremely responsible positions in their home countries either in connection with private industry or research organizations. Therefore we call them participants. Indeed they are participants in the program in as much as they work right along with the scientists with the instructors in the program. And we give them every opportunity to develop a knowledge in relationship to accepting later responsible charge of the work back in their home countries. Dr. it obviously costs money to carry on this training. How do the participants pay for the training? Do they pay for it or is it paid by their countries or is it paid by us? The participant of the International School is required to pay $1 ,000 tuition per semester. We at

Argonne and the Atomic Energy Commission really do not care where that $1 ,000 tuition comes from. The important point is that the person have the sponsorship of his home country and that he be employed within a firm and institution or an agency within his home country. We saw that after completing the training we can be assured that he is going to use it. I hate to interrupt you when you're eating because I know you have very little time to devote to such things. What is your name? My name is Azim Tegwai and where are you from? I'm from Pakistan. You've come to the school for a specific purpose or is your aim to develop a general background? No, I have come for a very specialized line and that is electronics and instrumentation for reactors as well as for facilities around the reactor which the Atomic Energy Commission of Pakistan is going to have in the near

future. How about the nuclear program in Pakistan? Is it well developed or are we doing it for you? In comparison to the United States it's not at all developed because we don't have any reactor yet but we propose to have a reactor very shortly, perhaps within this year. How old are you when I answered? I am now 37 years old. Do you think that's about the average age of the participants in the program here? No, I think most of them are younger than me. Younger than you, yes. Are there several people from Pakistan here with you? Yes, there are about three or four. Are they specializing in other lines? Yes, they are specializing in other lines. For example, one is in physics, another man is in electrical engineering and the third man is in chemistry. I suppose that Pakistan will continue to send people here to study at the school? Yes, that's right. In fact, we haven't found another place better than Oregon in this recipe. See,

within such a short time we get a lot of training in Oregon. When you say better, do you think it's because of the physical properties available to you here? No, rather the nature of the program, it is very specifically meant for training. In the United Kingdom, we don't have any such facilities where the program is compressed like this as in Oregon. We've got so much in such a short time. That's right, yes. This is called the Argonaut, isn't it? Yes, this is the Argonaut training reactor. And if you are Dr. Marshall Groton, highest assistant director of the school, Dr. I want to talk to you if I may about the curriculum of the school and what the students go through, I'm going to call them students since that's a familiar word to me. Do they actually come over here to the Argonaut, carry on some of their work here? Yes, they each run through about four days of experience in operating the reactor,

understanding the characteristics. And then doing some physics experiments with the reactor. Now Dr. Attacker told me that the time is divided between lecture courses and lab courses. And these are in various fields, I gather. Yes. All in one specific line. What are some of the fields of study? They can first be categorized in the broad terminology of reactor technology, perhaps. Under that category, we study reactor physics, reactor metallurgy, reactor chemical processing. Reactor chemistry, instrumentation control of reactors, shielding of reactors. And then, of course, we bring in seminars and special discussions of all of which are related to reactors in some way. All the work these people are doing here is done for the scientific study. It isn't for credits and courses in any of that sort. No, so there's no credits, no examinations. The only requirement we have is that those that do specializing studies report this in some fashion,

mostly for their own sake. Do you keep in touch then with these participants after they've gone back to their own countries? In many ways. They, of course, write to us. They come back and visit us on occasions. And we send out an alumni news about once every three or four months. The laboratory also has recently started a publication called an International News from Argonne, something like that. There are some ways in which the international school of nuclear science engineering is similar to schools, which were familiar in this country. You have a school board, do you have a school of Yale? We don't have a school, y 'all. We do have school colors. Our laboratory manuals, for example, have a blue background, which is taken from the same shade of blue as the Charent called radiation of a reactor. We have this also as the predominant color in our class book, which we produce for each session, includes the names and pictures of these students, what they're going to do when they return. And some interesting photographs around the laboratory while they've been here.

Doctor, while we've been talking, I've heard this sound that I hear here in the background, pick up and paste. First of all, what is that sound? Well, the Argonneau reactor is now operating, and that is one of the counting channels that tells us what it is doing at what power level it is operating. When a ticketing sound is a slow measured bass, it's not doing very much, I guess. Well, they can scale that up and down. It's a relative proposition. The only thing you notice that means anything is that when the paste changes, it is either increasing or decreasing in power. This reactor, as reactors go, is a fairly small one, I get it. Yes, I would say it's small. It's a being is how it is a training and research of a variety reactor rather than a power. There is not too much associated equipment with it. Now, the same reactor, one exactly like this, was I had this stand set up in Geneva at the International Conference on Adams for Peace. Yes, in order to show the simplicity of construction, a

crew of our people from the International School and from Reactor Engineering personnel who originally designed and built it, went to Geneva and erected it, operated it, and then de -assembled it in the period of the two -week conference. The students at the school will go back to their own countries, and they in turn will probably help in creating things similar to this in their own countries. We have already had two groups go back and reproduce them. One is already finished in operating in Argentina. Another one is in the process of being completed in Germany. I believe there are other ones contemplated. Could I ask your name? My name is Hidetokamegawa. And where are you from? I came from Japan. What did you do in Japan? Were you teaching in Japan? I am working at the Japan Atomic Power Company. How long has that been in operation? That company was set up about two years ago. Is the

nuclear program advancing rapidly in Japan? Yes, very rapidly in Japan. And what will you do here? I came to this school to study reactor control and measurement. Then when you go back to Japan, will you pass that information along to others? Will you teach others what you've learned here? No, I have to work on the construction job of the reactor power plant. So you'll put the things you learn here into practical application back in Japan? Yes, that's right. Do you feel that the school is giving you a good deal? Yes. You are learning a great deal here? Yes, I am. Yes, I like it. And that's the story of the International School of Nuclear Science and Engineering, a school with a current student body of just 57. But one that can potentially contribute more to the well -being of the world

at an institution a hundred times at size. And that's the city and sound, Jim Herbert reporting with George Wilson at the controls.