The American Scene; Books for Children

Cauffy, fluffy May you be able to see that this is what you should happen unto yourself for the rest of your life! Give us some answers in the video tomorrow for the finalotom. My name is Joel Zanger, this is the American scene. Our subject this morning is the World of Children's Books, and we have this morning two guests who are both particularly involved in this world. Our first is Bertha Morris Parker. Ms. Parker is an author and educator, the author of the Golden Book of Science, the Golden Treasury of Natural History, the Golden Book in Cyclopedia, and last year's Maggie Award winner, the Deep Blue Sea, and lots and lots of other fine books. She's been for 40 years a teacher of science in the lab school, University of Chicago, and

as both a teacher and a writer of books, there's a great deal of experience and knowledge. Pauli Goodwin is a children's book editor here at the Chicago Daily Tribune. She's been doing this for about 15 years, but she's been reading and enjoying children's books for a lot longer. I wonder if we could start at the very beginning this morning. Ladies with one question that I suppose is the most certainly interesting one for me. Ms. Parker, you published your first book in 1925, is that right? That's not unfair to talk about. No, I don't know. That's the 1925. It was probably a very different sort of thing on the books that I published today, wasn't it? It wasn't. I have a copy of it here. This is my first book, The Book of Plants. And you can see from, we look at the page or two, that it's not particularly exciting. No, no format. I thought you might be interested in some of the changes that I've taken place.

These, this book had many chapters in it. These three books are new editions or new rewrites, they're not the same chapters, but they deal with the same areas that three of the chapters in this book dealt with. And it gives you a little picture of the difference in science materials for children now. The pictures are in color. The type is much larger, much easier. Yes, certainly. Ms. Goodman, what would you say probably are the most significant changes that are illustrated here? There are a card in children's books. Well, I think what's happened with the science and informational books has happened right through the entire list. How do you mean? Well, when I read Treasure Island many, many years ago, it didn't have a picture in it. I know that there were editions with beautiful illustrations, but now you couldn't find a story such as

Treasure Island or books for younger children for that matter that aren't filled with perfectly beautiful illustrations, probably the work of the best illustrating talent in the country at the moment. I think that's one of the greatest changes. Beautiful, clear, type, lovely illustrations, great stress on fine formats. That's one of the greatest physical changes in history. I mean, not merely in the sense of appearance, but physical formats, the shape, the weight of a book. That's right. That's right. There are made much more appealing to children than they ever used to be. Is this true of the textbook field? Ms. Parker, those three books you showed us, the new books. Are they textbooks or...? Yes, these are textbooks. They're not like the textbooks we handle. Well, one of the interesting trends as Ms. Gooden knows from the books that she sends out for review. We're getting a great number of both trade books and textbooks dealing with small areas. This book had, as I said, many chapters in it about different areas and...

This is a book of plans. Book of plans. But now, it's possible to get... Well, a recent book that came out that I saw just a day or two ago was a book about the jungle. Now, there haven't been three or four recent books about the jungle, just about one very small area. That's true, both in textbooks and in trade books. Is it a much greater degree of specialization? Much greater degree of specialization. This one, for instance, is last year's book about just one kind of bird. Here's one about just moles and shrews. Then we have also... Is this a good thing? Well, well, it's a very good thing from the standpoint of textbooks. I mean, it's from the point of view of a teacher... From the point of view of a teacher... Because it makes a flexible science program possible. If you buy a hardbound book for the fourth grade, let us say, then you're committed to the units that are

in that book. And if you skip one, if you think you have enough material to handle that adequately, you have to explain to the children why you're not doing that one. And if you're not going to do that one, then you have less space in the book given to the one you want to do. So with the books printed in this way, you have a completely flexible program possible. There's nothing within limits, of course, you wouldn't take a primary book and use it in a sixth grade. The particular superiority of a book on bats, on moles and shrews, let's say, over one on bats and whales. It's simply a matter of choice, a matter of taste. Oh, well, I mean, you have them on everything. On all different days, there's several little books of this sort on whales. There's some on bats. There's practically no area. When I started teaching forty years ago, we had practically no science material for children. Everything that we wanted, we had to prepare ourselves. Well, you did have a few stories that you could adapt for children, some very good

ones. John Burrow's story of how Bluebird tried to find its nest after the tree had been cut down. And John Muir's story of Stikin. Well, those were wonderful science stories for children. Stikin's story of a little dog across the glacier. It's a wonderful picture of a glacier. But there was very little science material for children. Well, this was true, generally, in the whole book field. Well, no, I think that there were beautiful fiction books long before the birth of science. Well, yes, but the emphasis has been away from fiction as far as informational books is concerned. I mean, it's not considered the thing to do to fictionalize information books. Now children are, apparently, want their information straight. There's no bluebird. And when a new book comes out on a mole, or a shrew, or a bat, or a octopus, or whatever it may be, the libraries are stormed by children wanting the latest animal. I think to get to their collection, don't you? Yes, I think. Well, apparently, they're very popular. They don't want to just want them to publish them. It

suggests the magnificent future for the publishing field. There is a magnificent future. Well, there is a present. Many series of books similar to these that I've showed you. Then, of course, the books like the more general books, too, they aren't all. They don't all handle such limited areas. There are the books like this one of the Skolden Book of Science, which you mentioned, which handles, well, the universe and other things, and one book, but again. And it's good that it has pointed out one big difference between the early books and the books now. Almost all of the books that are coming out for children in science are straightforward presentations. They're not fictionalized. That doesn't mean it can't be a narrative. This is a story of one red wing, but it's a narrative. But it is not

fictionalized. We don't tell what the Red Wing thinks about this and how he felt about this. It's just a straightforward encounter. And you say children find this more interesting? Well, I don't know how they find it more interesting, but they apparently just gobble them up. What do you see? You see the no -surfing. The bird just books are among the earliest books about animals. They were completely fictional. All the animals talked. Well, we've abandoned that. I wonder, isn't it possible that we've abandoned some of the charm of animals? This division here. I think there are two different areas. There are really two different areas. Well, when a child goes to school, he really goes for information. He doesn't go for charm. Although if a book can be written in a charming fashion and also educated, that's a wonderful thing indeed. Would you say that this is an idea to strive for? Well, I would think. But the primary thing is the information. And I think the writing, generally speaking, wouldn't you say Ms. Parker, is really excellent in that field. It doesn't have to be too imaginative. In fact, then you're apt to get out on the limb and go beyond the bounds of information. Well, this is generally true in the whole book field, isn't it?

Isn't the right at the quality of writing much more uniformly high in children's books? Oh, there's no question about that. And the material published for adults? Well, I think so. Because I think that is a much more dedicated field. And I think that all the people working in the children's book field from the editors, publishers, librarians, teachers, booksellers, even book reviewers, are more dedicated and more devoted to their respected jobs. Than anyone in the adult book field, I'd probably be sticky my neck out, but I feel it's true. And when you get a group of such workers together, you sense that feeling of warmth and real and great interest in what they're doing. Because of a sense of the responsibility. Well, it's a tremendous responsibility. It's a terrific responsibility to children who are terribly important what happens to children. And after all, books, we think, play a tremendous place in the development of children. The kind of people they become can't do much about adults. Unfortunately, they're pretty much set. And I

don't think you want to assume that because it's a factual, it can't be charming. That's right. It depends on your definition of charming. But if you have a book in which there's a good deal of what we call anthropomorphism, describing emotions to the animals and plants you're talking about, then how are children going to tell what's fact and what's fiction? So it's very much better, isn't it? Good one says to keep the two apart. You can have a charming book about animals that's completely fictionalized, like the Wind and the Willows. And none of us want to do away with that, so to say. But we're not going to give it to a science class to say here you're going to find out something about these animals by reading the Wind and the Willows. But you can distinguish immediately whether they're reading a book for information, or if they're reading it just for the joy of reading it, whether it's about animals or anything else. But of course you wouldn't. You wouldn't sell out the Wind and the Willows. Oh, heaven. All of us are bad. No matter what you try. Our Beatrix Potter or any other greats.

We mentioned one thing about the difference in authors. This is one of the remarkable things that's happened, I think, almost since the war. Isn't that so? How many adult authors are suddenly writing children's books? Oh, a tremendous number are. And particularly, again, I think in the informational field, although that's not exclusively that. But in the fields of science, there are Nobel Prize winners that are writing books perhaps for an older age and these books are intended for, I think, possibly in the teenage field primarily. And they might be books more in the field of missiles and rockets and scientific inventions. That sort of thing. But they are. But that also goes through the fields of history and biography. Who are some of the people? Well, Henry Steele, Commager for one as an historian, I think, of immediately and Gerald Johnson. Various historians that were Bruce Catton for one in Civil War field, Jonathan Daniels. They're a great number of them that are writing not only history, but biographies of famous people. They're doing it primarily through

the medium of series books, which have come into being. And greater and greater numbers. And the problem there is that so many of the biographies particularly are becoming duplicated, over duplicated. Certain heroes like Washington and Lincoln and Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin have been done to death. And they're beginning to find more remote and lesser known heroes to write about, which is a very good thing. That includes scientists. A lot of biographies of scientists are coming along. This is just as a tremendously large market, isn't it? This children's market. Yes, and they're all the time. And they're more children coming along as we all know. This is probably, would you generalize? And this is kind of unfair because you were writing in the 20s as well as you are today. The general quality of children's books is better today than it was. Well, it's a little difficult to say that because there were so few in the 20s. And it's better than it was in the days of the earlier science books. But 20s, well, we were just beginning to get

some series of science books than for some rather attractive books. Well, I think it's better, partly because there's a much greater competition. There are so many publishers interested in science books. One thing that you might be interested is that there has been a considerable grade of late. There's much greater emphasis on the physical sciences and the wasn't the beginning. In the beginning, authors, as well as educators, worked on the theory that children below, let us say the sixth grade level, were not in the least interested in anything except biological subjects. And I have known in the early days of teaching courses of study were set up so that the very strong emphasis on biology up to the sixth grade. Why was this? Was this because of the physical limitation and laboratory? I'll tell you it was the result of

some studies of interest that weren't very well conducted. One, for example, I know was done, the student in education who was carrying this on, brought into a classroom, three things, a mud puppy, a live mud puppy that was going up and down in the water and spicing about, and a young begonia plant growing from a leaf and a pendulum. And he asked the children to ask questions about these three things. Any questions they would like to know about. So they all want to ask questions about the mud puppy. The begonia was static, it was sort of fun to see a little plant growing from the edge of a leaf, but really not very thrilling. And the pendulum of all things in physical sciences, probably for a fourth grade class of pendulum, is certainly among the least appealing. So what do you conclude from the experiment? Oh children are much

more interested in animals than they are in physical science. Mud puppies is what you're talking about. Well, if I've had had, let's say, an earthworm for the animal, and an electromagnetic magnet lifting up and dropping loads of steel, and... The Venus flytrap. That's right. Then the results would have been quite different, but they had the idea. Founded on such experiments as that, that the physical science should be held off until at least they were 11 or 12 years old. Well now you're getting a tremendous number of trade books coming out in the physical science field, as well as in the biologic field. And in textbooks and science textbooks, the weight has changed so that it's just about 50 -50. Is it possible to write a book for a fourth grade child in such a very complex field, which are on one hand

sufficiently simple and on the other sufficiently faithful to the field? Well, I think you have to choose your field. You can write one on permanent magnets, for instance, that doesn't get you into any very deep water. If you try to write one on nuclear -facient atomic energy. Sad lights to moon around the moon, you know. Sad lights to moon around the moon, you know. They have them. They have them. There must be a great temptation on the publishing field that's going to cash in on the headlines, though, isn't it? Get these books out very quickly. Okay, she just said to take advantage of them. Take advantage of them, naturally, because I think they think children are interested in everything and anything, perhaps more than adults. They have the fresh approach. They don't want to miss out on anything nowadays. It's really a marvelous thing. They're curiosity. You say children are interested, and that suggests the children are buying these books. What is the actual market? Who buys these books? Well, the libraries and the school

systems are the primary buyers of children's books. I always hope, like to think and hope, that the bookstores do a big sale of children's books. And for that reason, I edit very hopefully each year a large section before Christmas. Have we seen that? I like to show you the front cover because I think it's so charming. It is done by an artist, Roger Kowski, who a couple of years ago won the Call the Cop Award for the best illustrations of the year. The children's book parents always ask very celebrated artists to do their book week poster, and we've been able to borrow it. The original artwork for our cover. Just very lovely. But I always get this section to put this section together with a great deal of help, hoping that it will send parents and fond relatives into the bookstores to buy books for children. Because that, to me, is the best place for books in the family libraries. But in most cases, you say books are bought not by parents or children, but rather by librarians or teachers. Well, the large percentage of books at the time. Isn't this a kind of good thing? Isn't this

one thing that explains the high standards? And that's why people who say they can't afford to buy books for their children. And some of them can, although I often think they can when you compare the cost of book with a lot of toys that are destroyed in one afternoon. I think that it is a fine thing for librarians and teachers to buy them. Because those parents who don't think they can can always feel sure that their children who are in school will have wonderful suggestions and recommendations and help from their teacher librarians. I wonder if we might pick up just one thing you said. You spoke about the cost of children's books, and I'm in a situation where I'm buying children's books, and they are very expensive. They are. Well, it's hard to get what you think of as a high -class children's book for under two or three dollars. I'm not speaking of the small books in some of the universities. But I meant the quality books. Well, I wonder about the word quality here. I wonder, Ms. Parker, we have last year's Maggy Award, and I wonder if we wouldn't look at that.

Oh, Maggy Award, by the way. What's the general terms of the award? Well, they're different categories. Therefore, the best examples are to encourage, as I understand, the publishing of very good books at reduced prices. And therefore, paper -bound books, not cloth -bound books. Oh, this is a 25 cent book. This is a 25 cent book. Yes. It's done in full color? Yes, it's done in full color. And done by a very good artist. Gergely, yes. I've never known what the color is. I'm not quite certain. But it's in color throughout. And this is well available for 25 cents. That's right. Well, those books are great many of those, that particular type of book, are excellent. They have very fine illustrating, and they are fine for very small children. There's no question about that. And you revealed it, Miss Goodwin. No. I've noticed near times, generally, these books are not revealed. No, I don't think books like that need reviewing. In the first place, I'm no longer, I'm

sent books in that category, at high category. I'm not sent them for review. And I always feel that they rather have a rather automatic market, whereas the books that I review are the ones I think need pushing. I think they're wonderful books, and they should be brought to the public attention. And perhaps won't be in any other way. I'm wondering if, what Miss Goodwin said about who buys the books is completely accurate, because for some of the trade books, some of the trade books I have written, are published in a special school edition. This, for instance, is bound in what they call the library binding. It's meant to take a lot of heart. That's right. Well, you can get some idea, I should think. Nobody's ever told me this, but I should think you could get some idea of how many are sold in the bookstores. These are not sold in the bookstores. These are sold just by direct order to libraries. You could get some idea of who buys the books by

the percentage of the books that are in the library edition. And of this book, it runs something like 20%, only 20 % of them are bound in library bindings. That means that approximately 80 % of them are sold in bookstores. That's wonderful. Well, there are certain publishers that do a tremendous amount of promotion and sell their books in large quantities, and they are sold in great numbers through the bookstores. But there are great many of publishers of which this is not true. Well, one thing I'm pleased to hear about the librarian and schoolteacher as prime purchaser is on one hand, your point, that it makes more books available to children who can't afford them. But I think the other is that this is probably one of the things that makes the general high standard of children's books not only possible but necessary. It is. It is because books have to be passed on by teachers and librarians all over the country, and many of them are before they are ever

published. And it means that they have very, have to have pretty high standards to meet. Well, I was going to say there are other books that are in the media between this. And I think the Maggie Awards cover also books in the 50 % to dollar class and some very good books. They can spend a little bit more money in more pages and I think that there's a big future for books. After all, it hurts me a little to see that a book like this, it's a very well -done book. The books that you review, so many of them, when they're about such restricted areas, the child is likely to read them once or twice. And then you spent two dollars and a half for the book. Well, that's true. That's the objection to it for a home library. Well, I think you're right. I think we need... I think they're better for the school library. That is right. And I think that I think you're quite right about the market for books

in this class. But books of that sort, you can read if they read it two or three times, then you've only spent 25 or 50 cents per hour. Of course, I think the book that books that I'm perhaps particularly interested in because I've read more of them and I'm not so familiar with the informational field are the other kind of book, the creative book. And I do think that those are the books that need to have more, greater book store sales and get into the family libraries. And perhaps I'm not doing it as much as they should be doing it. Well, this is a problem, of course, of price. And the problem with the price again is a function of the very fine format, the very fine artwork and all of these things. But don't you think parents are very apt, especially before Christmas, to see some perfectly lovely toys that are not particularly permanent. If a child gets older one, it's broken in a very few days. And it might cost just as much as one of these books that are termed expensive. And yet would have wonderfully lasting interest and not only lasting physically, but lasting because the children like to read and reread the

books they love. They pass them on to their younger brothers and sisters. They do have permanent value. The price doesn't seem high when you consider all those things. Oh, that's true. It's just I'm thinking that any books in my house that are passed on to younger brothers and sisters get immediately destroyed. Well, as I understand it, your children are pretty young. They're pretty young. I'm thinking of a little higher age. You mentioned the parent faced with Christmas and the purchasing of books. Could you generalize what? Really, you go into a bookstore today with a children's section. You can see it, you'd be well. Yeah, it's fantastic. There's such a tremendous quantity of things that are available to you. Where do you start? What do you look for? Well, my usual feeling is I've noticed that I'm an interest me and then I'd distrust that immediately. Well, you should distrust it because you might pick up black beauty while you're too young to have red -black beauty while you're a child. But you might, if you were a little bit older, you might pick up some ancient classic that would have absolutely no appeal for children today. And that is a danger. And that's what the grandmas and great grandmas are apt to do. I do think if you can find a salesperson and some children's book departments have excellent ones who do

know the field and get help from them. It's a very good idea. I also think a section like this helps somewhat because we try to emphasize the books that we really think have merit. And also there are a couple of very excellent books of interest to parents who are trying in general. If you'd like me to, I'd be glad to mention the titles. Well, one of them is Proof of the Putting by Phyllis Fenner, who has been a librarian for years and years. She knows children inside out, she knows what they like and she also knows quality in books. And that is a down -to -earth book that I could highly recommend. There's another one, A Parents Guide to Children's Reading by Nancy Larick, which not only came out in a high -bound edition last year, but in a paperback edition for either 25 or 35 cents, invaluable for parents. I want to miss Parker. What about educational books? Should a parent buy his children an educational book is really best to leave out the teaching? Yes, I think it's interesting to see that when the first $5 books came out in the science books, there was a little question as to how well

they would sell. And now there are any number of $5 books that are very charming, very attractive. Any parent would be tempted to buy this. And should you say? And should. I'd like to thank you both very much. I've enjoyed this. I think I've learned a great deal. Again, once more, I'd like to thank our guests, Bertha Morris, Parker and Polly Goodwin for their discussion this morning on children's books. The last advice I can leave you across is by those children's books for your children. If not for this Christmas, perhaps even sooner. Good morning, Jules Anger.