Eyes on the Prize II; Interview with Frank "Big Black" Smith; Interview with Fred Smith

The conditions in Attica before the rebellion, I guess Sam you know some kind of way you know I got it okay I guess brother or whatever that okay I don't have to say it okay conditions in Attica before the rebellion it's somewhat the same as 1988 today present time but only stop count conditions in 1971 before the rebellion was bad you know bad food bad educational programs very very low low wages we would call

slave wages you know myself I was working in a laundry and I was making like thirty-centred day being the warden's laundry boy and that was the tighter that you had with my job warden's boy and I'm far from a boy so the conditions in Attica was very very bad just the name Sam you get one shower a week you know a shower you know to us in Attica State prison is a bucket of water you know and if you look in you get the right person outside of your cell that would bring you a second bucket then you can watch half of your body with one bucket but we would do is watch the top our body with one bucket and if we get a second bucket then we will watch the bottom part of our body and you get one shot of wheat you know and and the books in the library was outdated didn't have any kind of positive recreation for us if there was any recreation it was minimum it would only be on the

weekends and Attica is full prisons in one you got a E yard B yard C yard and B yard and two mess hall what is that a dining rooms and only time you would see a person that's in a block a few in D block like I were is when you would go to the mess hall and that would be sometime sometime you might run into them do humanizing is what the word would be for the conditions in Attica in 1971 there's nothing too much that you could do no more than just wait I hope you get lucky or some way to get on some kind of recreational list on the weekend in order to get more than one shower you know shower getting more than one shower

the problem you know as far as the police are as far as the facility is concerned the institution is concerned it's no problem as far as the water or the availability of a shower is there but it just wasn't it just wasn't a thing that they would give you more than one shower per week you know and as far as the toilet paper you get one roll of toilet paper and that lasts until it give out until the police until you can get someone you know to swag that mean another fell in made that can get access to a roll of toilet paper possibly to get a roll out the police is tall it or a bay bathroom because they got three four rows in there so if you wanted to people you know that moves around the facility you might could get someone to get you a roll of toilet paper or you could swag one from your job and then if you get buses like a 1751 and in the statue in the Lord that's like possession of drugs that's contraband a roll of toilet paper now and I don't know what they think you

suppose to use I guess you spoke to tell you she'd up you know and use it which you know really man in prison you know it's demonizing very demonizing very barbaric the way they treat you you know you're not a human being anymore you know you're a third-class citizen once you go to prison and that's the way you be treated that's what brought the rebellion on the humanized conditions well we some some others I say you know always had access to the outside world was concerned and had that link you know that chain that reach outside you know we was watching the all of the lives of the Hammond and we was watching

Malcolm you know in a lot of sense and a memorial of Baracko you know he was doing a lot of poetry and Elders Cleve you know so on ice you know we had communication around black history around black development are the elevating that blacks needed and eventually would see so we had the education of vehicle you know we had a lot of literature that we we and a lot of it we had to swag it in order to get it in the facility because the facility wouldn't let it in you know so we had to swag it I mean we had to have somebody in the package room you know to to let a box come through even if it was a cop if we subscribe to get black literature in through the facility it would get screaming and would get rejected you know in a lot of sense but we had you know vehicle we did have black literature and the Muhammad speak would get in the newspaper we will read that a lot of us and

we will pass it on it might be two three weeks you know before you get it you know what I mean but we did you know come about it that was one of the most yeah the George Jackson death okay the George Jackson's death you know the day of his death or the day after was you know really was one of the most I guess it was grew me just like the 13th you know you could see death you could feel it you know everybody was you know very very dumb syndrome you know in that suffix team was very low you know and it was a broad thing to see you know and really when it when it really hit me it's going to breakfast that morning you know everybody was quiet nobody wasn't picking up no civil well you know when you go in the dining room in the mess hall you had to pick up a knife spoon

and fork and when you come out you had to have that nobody was picking up nobody was talking and I was trying to figure out you know what was happening you know to me and I kept asking some of the fellows you know I was hanging out with you know what was going on and they started explaining me you know brother George you know the soul of dad and do do do this happening in California but it was a it was a thing to see you know and it remind me and I seen it again you know in the yard you know in Attica high unity and and how people could really come together around the same common goals you know and it was a very very broad thing to see and a good feeling to have you know around George Jackson's death is bad you know that had to be behind his death you know but it brought some form of unity all the way to New York State we felt it well after all as well left the messes you know the tape messes you know to the brothers in Attica you know oh yeah hi John you know he thinks about his

head it's going on here go that same rhetoric you know this ex-commissioned of parole you know he's shooting us a lot of you know whitewash again you know he's not gonna do anything and and and he's overly reacting you know the situation that we are talking about or any manifesto that was given to him you know he's not gonna add her to it you know he's not gonna go with any of the demands or the suggestions you know that he called it you know he's not gonna go with any of it he thought he was gonna take it as a laugh and matter you know the conditions in Attica you know he knew you know it wasn't the first time you know that it was thrown out there you know long before 1971 you know that's been a lot of letters you know even from our families talking about the conditions in Attica you know and it had to change the overcrowding it's you know and the slave wages and not being able to get any kind of productive you know programs in Attica you know the system knew you know we've been talking

about it we talk about it we talk about it but you know a lot of levels you know that's why I see that rebelling and conditions can bring on a lot of different levels you know and I see and I feel it you know that a lot of different things can happen you know behind the humanized conditions stop me now second sticks the Oswell tape recoded message was a bunch of wash we never took it serious because we knew he didn't take it serious there was another Duke situation period the day of the rebellion I guess 7 to the quarter eight in the morning I was

in the laundry that was my job assignment and myself and four five more my friends we were setting that the window the day of the rebellion I was in the laundry quarter eight eight o'clock in the morning that's my job assignment myself and three four five friends were setting next to the hallway but now they got a table adjacent to the hallway outside inside you locked in you can't get out and we seen in here a lot of commotion in the hallway a lot of maces run up and down the hallway and I start smelling gas you know and I start asking questions you know what was happening and and and we were getting feedback the shit is on a lot of things

just happening let us in the gas and us the gas and us so the police that had the laundry he came to us and said well what are y'all gonna do say what are we gonna do about what you know looking back now I assume he was talking about whether we were going to apprehend him or take the keys off him and open up the door but we didn't have a chance to do that before we know the thing the whole wall gave in that's how many inmates was in that in the hallway and it showed you the condition that the building was in or the foundation with him and now here we are in the laundry and the people in the hallways in the laundry with us so the police opened up the back door and they got this chemical in a 50 gallon drum next thing I know that's on fire and over our shop the laundry is the mattress shop and over that is the barber shop so this whole complex now it's going up in smoke so we go through the back door to side door but one of the inmates a person that I knew from playing our football told me hey man say you know a lot of shit is on you know everybody's just

gone every what you're waiting you know some stuff happened last night you know in eight blocks and some half an in-time square this morning and yeah I've seen him with your friend which was a cop and he's in the yard he looked like he's in bad shape so I say the two three of my buddies you know that's going to see what's going on so we goes down the hall we're instead of going around the side of the building and going the other way we went this way and then we instead of going left back normally we suppose to go we went right and wind up in the yard you know but on our way to the yard we seen a whole lot of things you know a lot of fights a lot of fires and you know inmates and cops running loose and people getting beat you know well inmates and cops really and I went right to the circle you know that by that time there's a circle in the yard now and all the you know the problem of correction cops is in the circle you know I walked up to this cop you know buddy of mine and I asked him what was happening and he told me that he felt like his arm was broke or something you

know was wrong with him and I said well man this you know cool out let me see what's going on out here and I'll get back to you the day of the rebellion I was in the laundry and me and some friends of mine was hanging out by the door and we had a lot of commotion in the hallway a lot of people in the hallway hollering the over the door and let us in next day I know the wall is down and everybody's inside the laundry and the cop over up the back door and we go out the back door trying to figure out which way we really was going to go because there was two ways to go and we wind up in the yard you know I guess to see what was really going on and I wind up to the circle you know where the hostages were and I seen a friend of mine a buddy of

mine that was in the circle cop and I asked him what was happening and he told me that his arm was real for something was broke and I told him I get back to him and here I am in the yard with 1300 to 211 inmates to be in that yard and my feelings after I entered the yard it would take a lifetime really for me to explain it to you a feeling of and a view of unity and seeing everybody regardless to the color of you being under the same condition of the same situation and everybody being out there together and the first time in

seven years of seeing that many people being around each other and being in some form of unity and some form of collective ideas and projection I guess it's what I would call it the harmony that I've seen and some kind of the words you know it's hard to describe and the feeling is hard to describe but it's a feeling of like being born again where you didn't have to worry about who you were or what color you were or where you were at you know you being in prison you know I didn't feel it then I didn't even feel like I was in out of the state prison just to view what was happening in that yard you know it's like freedom and it was a form of freedom you know I didn't have you know that keep up on top of me and I felt like whatever I was feeling whatever I was thinking was running together my emotions was into my thoughts and my feelings you know and I had all of that together and I used that emotion when I was in

the yard to bring to solidify my thoughts and my feelings but that I was thinking what I was feeling and everybody else was in that kind of vehicle the way I felt I felt I felt good you know I felt relieved I felt I guess liberated you know that I didn't have to worry about the bar in the front of me even though I knew that I was I felt and knew that I was in prison now that's the reality but that visible thing wasn't there no more you know the walls was there but that bar wasn't really in the front of me that visible bar it was more invisible then it was a good feeling you know and especially after we start dealing and start organizing and start talking about the conditions and start talking about why we were out there and start talking about the grievances and start talking about why we were rebelling and why rebelling was necessary the feeling became more and more and more into me and I

start feeling a part of it more and it brought me more aware of really who I were where I were and what I had to deal with and what was being dealt with in a unified collective fashion well after I you know arrived in the yard you know it was a chaotic situation you've got to see that you know it's got to be that way because now here's someone that's been of folks that's been locked up in a cell you know majority of the day you figured 16 to 17 hours you locked in your cell and all of a sudden you're not in your cell no more you know it's like a level

freedom you know you got room now you got space you know you can run around it was food in the yard you know and and and medication in the yard and you could see your buddy that was over in another block and now everybody's in one spot you know so everybody was running a meal you know what I mean but eventually after everything began to get organized you know as to why we really were in the yard and what that meant to be in the yard then it became more moderate it started to level off a little bit you know then we start setting up you know the observers in inmates we start setting up the the protective force you know the peaceful force you know and I got you know an assignment as to make sure that when people come in the yard that they be able to leave the yard on their own free will and nothing happened to them to make sure nothing happened to nobody in the yard to make sure we act and stay as

human beings you know and start dealing with the grievances and not our personal you know views I felt all right you know after it started being organized you know I felt all right you know before but I felt more and the more organized it became the more I felt apart and seeing that as being a part of me because prior you know to going into the yard I was coaching football team so I had a lot of you know relationship with people is in out of the state prison they're the cops and inmates you know I was known in the facility you know people's new me and I was like up on top of it from jump street you know in organizing I organize a football team I organize a basketball team and if you get into that organizing inmates in prisons then you know you know I organize you know it's a different way now and a different thing that had to be organized now because now you've got all type of people you've got white black

red brown whatever that had to be organized which prior to 1971 on the ninth you know it was a big separation you know you would think that you was in Mississippi somewhere you know the white over there the black over there you know and the Puerto Rican over there and the Native American over there but on the ninth we all came together the amnesty was important you know for a lot of reasons not a lot but one or two I say was very very important because we knew the system we knew the prison system you know and being in the yard there was a lot of violence a lot of assaults on

both ends you know and there would be reprisals and we knew that once we go back to the cells up that would happen and get around the condition of the demands that we had laid out say we had said okay we'll go back we knew there's gonna valve on us so we had to have an amnesty there and they knew that we they were gonna try and give us charges there's gonna try and bring that up and make us the criminals and the victims are the victims are the criminals and then we had word that something was happening overly about an assault act meaning that someone that got hurt fatally you know they didn't name it or they didn't say that Quinn I found this I laid up had died or had got killed but we know that he died behind negligent because the dead moved faster regardless of who did it or who brought their assault on Quinn if they had moved most speedy and give him some medical care I don't believe he would have died you know so it wasn't he

was killed he died behind the state not bringing the right medical care or medical system just like they didn't do with us they knew that they was gonna valve out of the state prison but they didn't bring the right medical care they didn't bring the spasm they didn't bring anything now the deal with the assault that they was gonna put down because they knew how they was coming in now they had the two refugee doctors Steinberg and Williams but they had a problem in a way with us so if they to brought the right medical equipment or had their right medical facilities hooked up Quinn wouldn't and I'm quite sure some of those four to three people or four to two other than Quinn wouldn't have died well we I say two reasons the amnesty was very important to us the main reasons

that we had got word that something had happened beyond an assault that meaning that some cop or somebody had died or had got killed and number two we tried to avoid or tried to put up some kind of defense on some reprisal other than that bringing some indictment around some assault or some kind of arsenic or some kind of robbery or some kind of prison contraband or whatever so the amnesty was accepted then we would have to worry about that if we had went back to ourselves the morning that the day came in on the assault I say the morning of the 13th when they came in to re-take the prison or to come in and do the assault

we a lot of us when I say we I just say myself really really really it's surprised me the way that they vent the way that they came in that yard they thought that we was going to be the violent one they thought that we was going to really be the one that do all the assault meaning that we was going to cut up some polices we was going to kill somebody so they came in there with excess overly excess force re-taken the yard that's why I said 43 people got killed on the re-taken and I say 43 they say 39 but I say 43 you know that's our count we knew that once Oswald went outside after talking to us and said that we wanted everything and they wasn't going to give us the 33 demand and everything we were talking about except 29 demands that he could see it see they didn't knew that we had a television set up in the yard and everything

that we would say to him and he was going to front of the media we would see it from the yard that's why they cut off all the electricity and that's why we demanded they cut it back on so we can continue to see what was being said to the public or saying to our fans in the community about what we were excuse me talking about in the yard but we knew that they were going to come in but we never knew that they were going to come in that that way that was really a big surprise the way that they came in the yard we thought they won't come in there and knock some heads and bust some heads open and that kind of way and once we start seeing the helicopters and they start shooting the gas pellets and we start thinking the best way to protect ourselves against that we start opening up cans of milk you know because we got word that if you put milk on you that the gas wouldn't stick to you and that's where we start doing and then when they start shooting in the yard and then when they start vamping in the yard I mean they physical beings in the yard and I start seeing

people getting open up with shotguns you know that I knew that they were really coming in there in a violent violent way and it was very barbaric man it was very dehumanizing you know and it was a sad sad bad bad thing to see how people could really really knowing that we didn't have any weapons yeah you might add a shank here mean a button knife or pair of scissors that broke but we didn't have no weapons no guns why did they have to come in there like that why did they have to shoot from the helicopter why did they have to shoot from the rules why did they have to shoot when they come over the wall and be right up on a person why did that the shooting with a shotgun or the two segments you want more than that with a day you know ninth the day of the retaken of the yard my feelings were

well you know you know butt weapon I asked whooping you know they gonna come in and they're gonna beat us up and I seen a helicopter circling the yard you know put your hands on your head and and and lay down and you won't be hurt and then the next thing I know gases in the yard and the next thing I know shoot is in the yard and people just getting shot in the next thing I know the police is just coming over the wall down in the yard they made a strip the police has made a strip you know the guards are the state troopers or whoever you know some law enforcement person made a strip pull all our clothes off made us crawl on the ground you know as if we were animals you know beat us you know myself you know they took me you know up off the ground and laid me on the table you know and burned me with cigarettes and dropped hot shells on me and spit on me you know saying that I was one of the person that

had castrated a police you know and bad one alive and cut his and cut his dope which none of this happened was proven later that none of this really took place and they tortured a lot of them after they when they did come in the yard you know you know you gotta let me explain it this way you know it was very very barbaric you know very very cruel you know and I you know and I really feel it you know what they really did you know they ripped our clothes off and they made us crawl on the ground like we were animals you know they snatched me and they they lay me on the table you know they beat me my

testicles and they burned me with cigarettes and they dropped hot shells on me and they put a football up on the mouth though they kept telling me that if it dropped they was going to kill me and I really felt you know I've been seen so many people shot for no apparent reason that really we're gonna do this they set up a gauntlet in the hallway and they broke glass up in the middle of the hallway they made people run through the gauntlet and they had sixty thirty four the police is on each side you know with clubs they called niggas sticks and it was beating people and it just hurt you know the way you you just see you know another human being she knew human being its way you know and it really hurt me you know even sitting there now you know describing it to you you know I never thought it would happen you know I never thought some of the people would be

treated like animals you know as the way we treated like animals and the way they treated me like animals the way they beat me and after they took me off the table and ran me through the gauntlet and the way they broke my wrist open my head up took me to the hospital and dumped me on the floor and and play with me with shotguns pointing in my face and putting the shot the barrel to shotgun over my eyes and talking about nigger we gonna kill you you know and I went through this all that afternoon and then took me out to the cell and playing russian roulette with me you know and left me in the cell knew nothing to wrap up and I'm trying to get up on the pillow to keep myself won't you know it was a hell of a experience you know and I think about it today and it really really it emotionally you know it really grabs me but this soon too shall pass you know but they really cheated us bad they cheated us like a bunch of animals you know really well to change now I think you know and my views now and hard change me yeah

you know my experiences now and of being an article in the change that I see myself after article 1971 my manipulation my bad manipulation I feel this is good my my views is different now my values is different now my unified thoughts in being is different and not now you know after article and doing article that change I seen in myself my needs is different I just see a complete different in myself now you know my politics is different now my collective struggling is different now and and I think the most broad thing that I see in myself now the unified way of looking at life after looking at

the yard and looking at people of hall makes and use and color being in that yard why the world outside from the hierarchy all the way down to our low grassroots community person can't be on a unified level as was in that yard I would like to see that and I work in that direction now how we all can pull together and work together and be with each other in a unified way and that's how I view it today and that's how I view it and and seeing the change in me up until the present time and hopefully the future that I could work in that fashion how I felt and how I feel you know after article that feeling I guess you know you know it's really hard to explain you know but I feel different I

feel good about myself you know I have to experience it and see myself now I feel good I feel more clean about myself I feel more real about myself you know since Attica you know I feel my head my body everything feel different it feels better I put it that way Attica changed a lot of my views Attica changed me Attica made me feel more human Attica made my values more positive Attica changed my behavior pattern you know Attica changed my unified way of looking at things you know I feel more positive about myself Attica changed that you know believe me I'm winning as a hustler and I came out as a struggle you know a more unified struggle a more people's person I was my person you know I was a Lono you know I was mainland you know what I mean but I was for Frank you know I was for black you

know me you know that's who I'm you know I was very selfish less I'm selfish because I understand that me I can reach out to others so I'm not a selfless person now you know I'm a more unified person okay the morning after George Jackson's death you know entering the mess hall was like you know I related you know to old song you know Billy holiday gloomy sent me you know with a gloomy morning but it was a good feeling you know to see a bunch of people you know inmates for for boy even the cops everybody was quiet you know then nobody have to be told you know you not supposed to eat it

was a feeling that you get you know once you walk in the door of the mess hall and you see everybody said now nobody got no train in the front of no civil way or nothing everybody was just as quiet it was a unified morning it was a good feeling that morning you know after George Jackson's death the day of the rebellion I was in the laundry you know quarter to eight o'clock in the morning during our usual you know sitting in the laundry and all of a sudden a big commotion outside and gas we could smell it and people running all up and down the hall we're asking us to let them in the laundry but we didn't have a chance because the wolf just fell right in just cave right in and everybody was

in the hall we just about was in the laundry and the next thing I know this chemical I don't know exactly what it were was a flame you know the whole laundry was on fire and the police opened up the back door and we all out in the backyard trying to trying to figure which way we were going whether we was going to the left or going to the right and we wind up in deep locked yard what a day of the rebellion you know I was in the laundry setting that to win adjacent to the hallway and and we smell some gas and then we seen a bunch of inmates running up and down the hallway hauling letters in letters in and the next thing I know the wall came in and they were in and smelling that gas you

know I'm thinking now what are we going to do how I'm going to get out in the police open up the back door and we out the back door and I wind up in deep lock yard myself and some old friends of mine the shit is on you know something is happening you know and everybody running the move you know the polices and a lot of fights over here the police and inmates and a lot of villains was on fire and people running out of the commissary and running up and down the hallway and talking about the shit is on you know everybody's in D yard and the shit is in D yard well what's happening you know I want to get out of there you know I want to try and figure out that I can get out of there you know whatever is happening you know I want to get where I can see myself being safe you know that's what was happening with me but then I wind up in D yard being nosy and trying to figure out what's going on and be involved or the look

at what's going on if not involved you know because at that time I want to just see what was going on you know not to be involved with what's going on because a lot of violence and a lot of things is happening and a lot of gas and then I start seeing polices on the roof with guns polices in the hallway with guns and polices getting beat and mays getting beat and I want to try and get myself in a safe position that's what I wanted to do really but I wind up in the yard and after I got in the yard then I seen myself a prison in the yard because once you've got in the yard you couldn't come out the yard because all let's start closing up the conditions in out of the state prison you know really you know when you

said you know people it's hard for people to believe it you know you get one shower week you know and if you get more than that then you've got to get a bucket of water when you get in your cell and if you're fortunate enough you can get two that mean you can watch the top of your body and you can watch the bottom of your body you get one roll of toilet paper until that's given out give out until the police want to give you another one on lesson you can get one of the inmates you'll fell inmate to swag you on that means going to police's bathroom which they keep two or three rows in there and get one of those and bring them to you you know not a medical care I mean what we call it was two refugee doctors if you got a two-thick and you go to the doctor they give you an aspirin or else they pull it well no such thing is filling it and if you tell a doctor you want to get a feel or you want to get a check then you tell you well you're not a doctor how do you know what's wrong with you you know and all they do is push aspirants push aspirants no medical care at

all you know no examination as to really what's wrong with you you know no same two doctors is the ones that they had on the day of the retaken of the facility we say refugee doctors you know really you know and the reason we say refugee doctors you know it's it's it's the mannerism maybe it wasn't even a doctor really Steinberg and Williams from the way they treat you you know they would be on one side of the one no you know and you would be on the other side and when it's wasting going in a bank you know with no hand touching no feel you know if you say you got a knot in your stomach they'll say here's aspirin maybe to go down go back to yourself you say you got a gum ball in your mouth here's an aspirin you know you might have to open your mouth up or pull

your shirt up you on the day on one side and winning you on other on that there's no physical touch no examination none whatsoever and I'm serious about this if you get serious enough if they think and you complain enough to the right police or the right you know a PK principal people that's the assistant warden maybe they might send you to an outside hospital but there was a no examination from them doctors in out of the state prison you know none whatsoever tell them what the guards what the guards what they were going through in some you know situations some extent would just as bad as ours because they was you know prison themselves you know they were being housed they were being locked up you know you take a person is coming from outside they might have a little person a problem with his or her or just his really because there was no female guards there and only white no blacks you know at the time that

we were there they might have their little person a problem they got to bring it in there and they got to see themselves coming in that door and that key is turned on and now they got to come in there and they got to mingle with us and if anything do happen they can't get out so they being kept themselves they being locked up themselves and they bickering among themselves too I know a lot of police is in there had problems with each other why do you think so many of them got killed I know for fact you know and I could see you know a police looking on that barrel and pulling that trigger on someone that they really had a problem with or someone that was putting watching probably in their lunch break or will hide in their lunch break or would tell them hey my fucker get on up on that chair and stop hanging out down here you know the way they talk to each other they would treat you bad you know that's the only way they could ventilate you know they had to let their frustration out on you you

know they couldn't take it home you know for possibility that they wife or their girlfriend or whatever wouldn't put up with it so the only way they could do it on the third class person on inmate they let it off but we were let it back off on them so some kind of way we both would ventilate because you couldn't find too many inmates were put up with the police's hogwash even though you know you are open to get beat up and put in segregation or put into the box that was one of the main way of letting off the frustration is coming in there and dropping the attitude on inmate