PowerPoint; Black is the Color of Space, Roundtable

Production and broadcast of PowerPoint is made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. This is PowerPoint, an Information Age clearinghouse for issues affecting the African -American community, the nation and the world. And now, PowerPoint's Kenneth Walker. This is an historic broadcast for PowerPoint as we become the first program serving the National African -American community to do a talkback with astronauts aboard the space shuttle Endeavor, including African -American astronaut Major Mike Anderson. We're proud to bring PowerPoint listeners this special segment and we thank NASA for providing PowerPoint this unique and extraordinary opportunity. My interview with Major Mike Anderson and other crew members aboard the space shuttle will begin in just a moment. Following that discussion, we'll be joined in studio with

Curtis Graves of NASA Headquarters in Washington, D .C. to talk about opportunities for entrepreneurs and students to get involved with NASA programs. We'll also be joined by phone from New York City with Kefir Burns, co -author with Bill Miles of Black Stars in Orbit, the story of NASA's African -American astronauts. You can participate in this discussion by calling PowerPoint's hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Call a friend. Tell them PowerPoints on the air. In fact, at least for this edition, you can tell them that we're literally out of this world. Our talk with astronauts aboard the space shuttle Endeavor begins in just a moment. But first, PowerPoint news with Verna Avery Brown. This is PowerPoint, news and information to

empower the community. I'm Verna Avery Brown. Note the following content may not be suitable for young listeners. The Associated Press reports former White House intern Monica Lewinsky says she's willing to testify that she did have a sexual relationship with President Clinton if Whitewater prosecutors will grant her immunity from perjury that leaves unanswered, however, questions about whether Clinton or his longtime friend Vernon Jordan coached her to lie about it. Also, hanging in the balance is the question of whether the President considers phone sex or other types of sexual activity to constitute having a sexual affair. According to the Los Angeles Times, Lewinsky is heard on secretly recorded tapes saying she engaged only in oral sex with Clinton and that the President told her he did not consider such an act a sexual affair. It's a curious distinction and it's reminiscent of statements Clinton made during the Jennifer Flowers scandal in 1992. When PowerPoint news spoke with tourist and residents in front of the White House about the scandal, we asked them if they made that distinction. Now, I got to get personal

because Monica Lewinsky is heard on the tape saying President Clinton doesn't consider oral sex to constitute a sexual relationship. Do you make that distinction? Do you agree with the President on that? Yes. You do. Do you agree with that? No. That's you. No. Yes? Absolutely. No. No. No. All right. Is that? Yes. Wait till. Good luck, Clinton. Do you agree with the President on that point? It's the first time I've ever heard of that. I myself will consider sex with any woman that you're not married with as a form of adultery. I don't know how you separate it. And if you hear Jay Leno last night, it was hilarious. He says Clinton researched the Bible and found out that oral sex is not adultery. Bring on that old time religion. Bring on that old time religion. This is sad. I mean, it's funny. We laugh.

That's not good. I would disagree. If you're in your relationship with someone whether it be marriage or boyfriend or girlfriend, I think any sexual contact with someone else would be considered cheating. But is it, well, the question really is, is oral sex sex? Well, I would say yes. It is. I think it's a type of sex. It's a possibility that President Clinton does not believe that oral sex constitutes having a sexual relationship. Sort of a fine distinction. What's your reaction to that? Sex is sex. Reactions to the purported scandal between President Clinton and a former White House intern. The Oprah Winfrey trial continues this week. One witness says Winfrey went too far in trying to state the dangers posed by Mad Cal disease. Mike Engler says he doesn't know why a guest told Winfrey's TV audience that Mad Cal disease could make AIDS look like the common cold. Engler is the brother of the elite plaintiff in the cattleman's case against the talk show host. During

his testimony last week, the younger Engler took issue with several statements made by Winfrey and co -defend at Howard Lyman. They're being sued by cattlemen who claim they lost money when cattle prices fell after the April 1996 broadcast on dangerous foods. An Arab Human Rights Group is urging Algeria to allow an independent national investigation into this year's civilian massacres there. The Arab Organization for Human Rights voiced concerns at the serious escalation of acts of violence and terrorism waged by the armed groups against civilians. Algeria has rejected any such investigation as interference in its affairs. Autumn Jackson's husband won't be going to jail. A judge put Antony Williams on probation for five years instead of sending him to jail because he helped prosecutors convict his wife in the Bill Cosby extortion case. Jackson hugged her husband and smiled when she heard the sentence. She's pregnant with his child. Jackson starts serving her more than two years since in April. She was convicted of trying to blackmail Cosby by threatening to tell a tabloid she was his illegitimate daughter.

Rhapsody in black, a powerful mix of jazz and African -American art, has begun a national tour. Correspondent Cheryl Flowers was there for the opening in San Francisco and files this report. From Big Band Jazz to paintings and literature, the richness of the Harlem Renaissance has been captured by new multimedia exhibit called Rhapsodies in Black, which had its first US opening this week in San Francisco. And Richard Powell, co -curator, says that the term Harlem Renaissance is actually a metaphor. If one understands that the term Harlem Renaissance means black creative creativity and black modernism, then it's applicable. I'm not just for a period of the 1920s and 1930s, it has resonance and meaning for our lives now. Sociologist and exhibit committee member Dr. Juel Taylor Gibbs agrees that the Harlem Renaissance has had a lasting legacy. Well, it brings back my early childhood when my parents used to take me down to Harlem when I was a little girl. And I used

to see some of these very glamorous people and we would go to the Apollo Theater. And I still have memories about a wonderful time and that was before Harlem really became what is now called an inner city. American blacks have really contributed a great deal of culture, music, literature and art to the American social fabric. Actor Danny Glover. In some way it puts in perspective this whole journey that we've made. You get a sense of what that period has been. We're talking about artists who painted or sculpted or did whatever, took photographs from the turn of the century. Rhapsodies in black begins touring nationally this spring. For PowerPoint news, I'm Cheryl Flowers. The exhibit is scheduled to tour Los Angeles, Washington DC, North and South Carolina and Houston as well. For PowerPoint news and information, I'm Verna Avery Brown. We're back with you now on

the east. We come here to read it on our rampage. I have you loud and clear? Endeavour, please stand by for a voice cue check from PowerPoint radio. Houston, we think we're ready for you on the flight deck. Endeavour, this is PowerPoint radio. How do you hear me? At Point Radio, this is Endeavour. We have you loud and clear. I'm Kenneth Walker. I want to welcome each member of the crew to PowerPoint radio. Welcome aboard. Major Anderson, if I can, I'd like to thank you so much. Major Anderson, if I could, I'd like to begin with you. This is your first space mission and looking at that takeoff of the shuttle Endeavour last night. It's always a beautiful sight as it is at night time. What possibly could have been going through your mind? What did you feel when you were soaring through the clouds and ultimately into space? Endeavour, I come versus her to ground. Thank you. As you

mentioned, your idea was that my first flight, and it's a pretty hard to describe the feeling that I had at that time. It was a culmination of a lot of years of hard work and everything to get to that point. When it actually happened, it was really just a dream come true. At the time, I really couldn't tell you what was going through my mind. I was trying to concentrate on doing my job and doing the things I had been trained to do. But at the same time, I was thinking about my family that was out there watching their lunch and my loved ones. But overall, it was just a real life. I had to experience it. The sight of Earth from space, we've seen pictures and we know something of what it looks like, but still nothing of what it feels. What did it feel like for you? Well, it's breathtaking. Pictures don't do justice clearly. There are books with your own eyes from this vantage point. It's just a beautiful place. It's just a wonderful creation. And when I first got my glimpse of Earth from up here, it's just impossible to describe. It's fantastic to you. Not, I imagine not many African -American youngsters when you

were a child actually aspired to space travel or space work. How did you come upon this desire, this aspiration? Well, you know, I think for me it was a combination of a number of things. My father was in the Air Force, so my exposure was to a lot of high -tech things, a lot of airplanes and a lot of the gadgetry that the airport had at the time. And also just an interest in science fiction. I was a big science fiction fan as a kid. I watched all kind of television shows like Lawson's Space and Star Trek. And I think just from watching those shows and seeing what those people were doing and from going to work with my dad and seeing what he did, just kind of developed a natural interest in me to want to do something like that. Commander Wilkut, this is of course the third space mission for you. Does it get repetitive for you or does the excitement recur each and every time? We only get to do this about every year and a half if you're lucky enough to do that. And so it certainly never gets repetitive. It's exciting every single time. And how did you come to the space program? Well,

sort of the same way I also, I guess, was always interested in space just from the science fiction, the movies, whatever. But as I was nearly the end of my tour with a test pilot and I was thinking about what I wanted to do next, a good friend of mine that was already in the astronaut program asked me if I would be interested in that. And it seemed like a way to continue really the work that you do at the test pilot. And you get to work with a lot of very, very bright young engineers and scientists. And so it seemed like something I'd be understanding. Dr. Andy Thomas, as I understand it, the last person the shuttle will deliver to the space station mere before the construction begins on the new international space station. What exactly will you do between now and then to prepare for the construction of the new space center? Well, you're correct. I will be the last US representative on the mere space station following six pre -detectors who have all done very good

jobs under sometimes very trying circumstances. I'll be spending my time on the mere space station running a suite of experiments that are from US sponsorship looking at the fact mostly of long duration space flight on the behavior of the human body. And I'll also be supporting the cosmonauts in operating and maintaining the space station and keeping it flying. So I expect it to be pretty busy during my time there. And that kind of experience obviously is going to feed directly into the international space station because it's going to give us guidance on how you should operate one of these large orbiting vehicles. Major Anderson, back to you again, if there is one space mission either conceived or yet not conceived that you'd like to be on and you'd like to be a part of what would it be? I think that's an easy question for me. I always thought it'd be nice to go to Mars and that's something that I think the space program is going to be looking radically at very soon here. And that's something that I think every action on

the program would really like to be a part of. You know, trip to another planet to explore that planet and see what's out there is something that will be very exciting for anyone. Well, I want to say to each and every member of the endeavor crew that we hear at the PowerPoint Network are all very proud of you and we wish you in the words of the old Vulcan, Live Long and Prosper. Thank you. Thank you, PowerPoint. We're now resuming operational air to ground. Houston, that concludes this event. And in Denver, we're off to Flight Deck now. Stay tuned. There's more PowerPoint just ahead. Welcome back. I'm Kenneth Walker. We want to deliver a very special thank you to senior producer Tony Regusters for all the very hard work he

put into securing the interview with the crew of the shuttle in Denver. The rest of this hour, PowerPoint will examine blacks in space, both the history and the future opportunities that exist in space exploration for students, entrepreneurs and aspiring astronauts. If you have questions about how you can benefit from the space program, get in on this discussion by calling our toll free number at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. To help provide some answers, we have in our studio Curtis Graves, the special assistant for executive development, Office of Equal Opportunity Programs in the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. And on the phone from New York, we have Kefir Burns co -author along with William Miles of Black Stars in Orbit, the story of Black Americans in the American Space Program. Gentlemen, welcome. Thank you. Thank you

very much. Thank you for being here. I want to start with you, Kefir, if I can. In terms of what you were able to discover in your book, Black Stars in Orbit, I can imagine that the astronaut core was the elite of perhaps all of the US military back when in its early days. And I'm wondering what kind of reception this elite core of white astronauts gave to Blacks as they started to try to make inroads into the astronaut core? Well, not a very good reception, I'm afraid. And that's probably the case with any area where minorities begin to make inroads into what was previously a white only enterprise. One of the very first to be asked to join NASA was Captain Ed Dwight. And this is back in 1961. He was asked by President

John F. Kennedy. But he had a terrible time in the space program, you know, just training to get ready for a flight. And was told by higher ups there that there would be no coupons on the moon if they had anything to do with it. So they gave him a pretty rough time. And then when the president was assassinated, he was out of there the very next day because he didn't have the backup. And then following him, I think it was several years before the next African American was invited. And that was a matter of fact, Robert Lawrence, who was in the Air Force, was part of the Air Force's space program. And he became actually the first African American astronaut designee, I believe he was called, but unfortunately an accident on the runway at Edward's Air Force base where he lost his life. I prevented him from actually ever traveling in

space. So it's been a long road. It's been a long road. Well, Curtis Graves is also an inspiration. I believe one of the contributors, I think he has a credit in your book. And Curtis, by the time we got to Guy Buford, who was the first African American actually to go up in space in 1983, can we expect that he encountered perhaps what Jackie Robinson encountered in baseball? Not really, because of the fact that by this time there were a lot of barriers that were down. And essentially Guy went in relatively trouble free because after he had gotten through the screening process, which was a difficult one, he had gotten to the point where you're dealing with professionals. And at this point, you're dealing with military guys that he had been flying with and dealing with for a long time. So it really wasn't a problem like you would have seen in earlier years, because after all,

a lot of years had passed by the time Guy Buford Fred Gregory and Ron McNair were accepted into the Corps. Well, it usually takes either very strong leadership or the sterling example, inspirational example of one person like a Jackie Robinson to break down those barriers. How did you get from Captain Ed Dwight to Colonel Guy Buford? Well, NASA put out a white net that year, and I happened to be kind of instrumental in that because we had gotten the services of Lieutenant Uhur from Star Trek. I had gotten, I can't think of a first name, Michelle Nichols to help us with the recruiting process. And she was kind of working along with me and I was taking her around the country and meeting people and what have you. And she was the person who did some commercials and they ran public service commercials, they ran on television. And people like Fred Gregory was

sitting in his home in Hampton, Virginia saw that commercial one night at midnight and said, by God, I can do that. Applied on his own out of the, the astronaut out of the, the F was processed and was selected. So a lot of barriers were down by then and the time was right. But Keffa Burns, in terms of one's interaction with, with colleagues in this elite Corps, you tell a story in your book about conversation between Captain Ed Dwight and Colonel Chuck Yeager, who was the first test pilot to fly fly faster than the speed of sound. First of all, tell us, tell us that story if you recall it. Well, that's been a while. I'd have to review that story myself. But as I recall, Colonel Yeager did not want Ed Dwight in the space program and essentially he told him that, you know, those folks in Washington don't know what they're getting you into down here. You could get, you could get killed down here, you know, just kind

of veiled threats like that. And he, and he was the one I was referring to that, that Ed told me told him that there would be no coons on the moon if he had anything to do with it. Well, when in the course of your research for this book, when did, did this kind of interaction at the colleague level begin to break down as Blacks begin to be accepted? I think Robert Lawrence, I made you Robert Lawrence, had a lot to do with that. After all the trouble that Ed Dwight went through and Ed Dwight wrote to Washington and let folks know, you know, what he had been through down there. And they asked him, well, what would you have the next astronaut trainee do that you did differently? And so he, you know, tried to tell them, you know, some of the pitfalls and whatnot. So anyway, by the time they brought in Major Robert Lawrence, officially there were no, I mean, there was a little bit of resistance, but nothing like what Ed Dwight had gone through. And this was several years later, I don't know, like three and a half, four years later that

Robert Lawrence came into the program. And so he didn't have the same kind of resistance then that Ed Dwight did. By the time Fred Gregory, Guy Blueford and Ron McNair came into the program, as Curtis was saying, NASA wanted minorities at that point. I think the times had changed, people had changed. And so they were actually looking for qualified minorities to become involved in the space program. As well as women, and women joined the court at the same time in a fairly large number. So it was a major step in the right direction. I think that the agency wanted to put its best foot forward at that time to say, yes, we do. In fact, minorities and females to be a part of this program. And this is kind of the NASA's window on the world. This is what people see when they look at NASA. I remember, guys, who were, for instance, controllers in mission control, who the camera never pointed to them during the Apollo days. You never knew

that there was a black person in mission control, but they were black people. And one of them lives right here in the Washington area, Joe Fuller, who worked in mission control, but you never saw his face. Who controlled the cameras? Had to be deliberate. Who controlled the cameras? You know who controlled the cameras. I mean, was it NASA or was it NASA or the object network? Well, there was also, in the very early days, Colonel March Banks, who was a former Tuskegee Airman, who was a group surging with the 332nd fighter group. And he was in charge of monitoring John Glenn's vital signs from various points all over the, they had monitoring stations all over the world, various points. And he was in charge of that whole operation, monitoring John Glenn's vital signs as he orbited the Earth. This was 1962, I believe. And then, you know, the Tuskegee Airman, really, those guys as pioneers are part of this whole story. Also, they even came to several of those guys came

to Fred Gregory when he was thinking about, you know, about applying. And they said, you know, you've got to do this. And they really told him, you know, about their adventures. And he was inspired. And that confirmed for him that he needed to go ahead and do this to apply. We're talking about blacks in space with Curtis Graves and Kepher Burns. You can get in on this discussion by calling our toll free hotline 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. And indeed, Kepher Burns, you are the son of a Tuskegee Airman. Yeah, yeah. My dad was a 44k class, 44k. He was probably one of the youngest guys. You know, I think he tried to get in even before he was old enough and had the weight. I think he went in on his 18th birthday, which is as soon as he could get in. And he's still flying today, might be. And in fact, your mother was one of the very few black female pilots at the time. Yeah. And back in the early 60s or late 50s, she was,

because my dad had a business on Compton Airport, a little small six -based operation. She became a pilot. And I think she was one of only two African -American female pilots in the country at that time. I see. Curtis, how many black astronauts we got today? Well, you know, I think that they're six and that five. I'm mentioning five to you earlier. I think that they're six now. Three males and three females. Out of a total of... Round number is about 100. About 100? Yes, yes. You were telling me before a fascinating story about the first human being, so far as we know, maybe even the only human being, to play music in space. Tell us that story, please. Well, the late Ron McNair had an opportunity to take his saxophone. Ron McNair was not only a black belt in Karate, but also an accomplished jazz musician. And for our listeners who don't know,

Ron McNair was one of the members of the crew of the shuttle Challenger, which exploded, and of course, he lost his life there, but go ahead and finish this story. So Ron wanted to take his saxophone in space. And the person who was Director of Public Affairs at the time had some problems with the fact that Ron was going to go up in on air, blow his saxophone, and they thought that this was a frivolous thing. So the compromise, I got involved in it, and the compromise was, I was the deputy to this gentleman who was Director of Public Affairs. The compromise was, take your horn, record the actuality of your playing your saxophone, and then when you come back, we'll find a time and we'll air it. So he took his saxophone. As a matter of fact, he was an alto player, took a soprano, took a smaller horn up, and took it into space. He set up a camera, he videoed himself, as well as audioed himself, and some still photographs were taken. The next morning, he rewound the tape, stuck it in the cabinet. The next

morning, he got up, and they had several rats, test rats on board, and the little rats were just floating around looking like they were dead. McNair panicked, thought to himself that, for some reason, the rats had died overnight. So he grabbed a roll of videotape, stuck it in the camera, and recorded over the exact same spot that he had recorded himself playing the saxophone. But the audio tape survived, and where is it today? In the Smithsonian. We have been able to make it a part of the permanent treasure of the Smithsonian. Well, and hopefully we can see about the technology that may allow you to lift that image off of the videotape. But we're talking about blacks in space. We're talking with Curtis Davis, an official with the National Aeronautics Space Administration, Curtis Graves, I'm sorry, an official with the National Aeronautics Space Administration, and Keifer Burns, a co -author of a book on black stars

in orbit. I'm Kenneth Walker, and our discussion will continue when we come back. Internet services for PowerPoint are provided by World African Network, offering news, information, sports, and entertainment for African and African -American communities, through Internet, broadband, and new media technologies. The web address is www .world .africanet .com PowerPoint is made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting's Radio Program Fund. Welcome back to PowerPoint. I'm Kenneth Walker. We're talking about

blacks in space, and we want you to get in on this discussion about what NASA can do for you. Call out toll free hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. We're going to take your call. Now we're going to go to Walter. Hello. We're at the station WEAA out of Baltimore. Welcome to PowerPoint, Walter. Well, I'm fine. I'd like to ask your two guests a question in particular that I have a white athlete that I caught on a public radio one night. And that question was, what is the social benefit of the billions of dollars spent in outer space when we have homeless, when we have the racist treatment of black people here on Earth? I'd like for them to just give me that comment on the social agenda of racist white America here on Earth and outside of the elitist group that I would suggest they're part of, I'll hold on and listen. Thank

you so much. Thanks for the question. Curtis, you want to say a shout at that? Well, NASA's budget is minuscule when we talk about the federal budget. We spend about $13 billion a year. So if you shut NASA down in the morning, I don't think it would help that many homeless people because that money wouldn't just happen to flow directly to the homeless. Now, when you look at the social benefit, and I think that that's the tone of the call of question, the social benefit is what is learned by mankind. And if you look at, throughout man's existence, we have had this quest for knowledge. And what we see when you send astronauts into space, when you send that little rover up to Mars, is an extraordinary amount of information coming back for the benefit of mankind. When you look at NASA, NASA is not only the space part of it, but also the aeronautics part of it. All of 747s that you see flying, they're flying by accident. They're flying

because of some research that has been done over many, many years that created the kind of atmosphere in the air that we have right now that makes the space, I mean, it makes aviation possible for the huge numbers of people that are flying all over the country. Jeffrey, what's the point Walter asked out of all of them? I get in on that. Sure. I think you can't separate the social impact of the space program from the technological medical. I mean, there are experiments that have been done in zero gravity that have resulted in advances in medicine that all human beings, including African Americans, benefit by the computer technology that all people, including African Americans, benefit by, those things are part of, they have a social impact. The fact that we can get on the internet and be in touch with hundreds

of other people all over the country, or African Americans all over the country, or even with Africans in Africa, the fact that we can travel, as Curtis was saying, the major carriers in the computer technology that allows us to travel by jet carrier across the country and across the world has been, those advances have been made because of the space program. And those things impact us socially. We can get on a plane. I can get on a plane here in New York and go visit my family in Los Angeles. You know, those things are a part of the space program. So you can't separate the advances that are made in technology and in medicine and all the other ways that the space program has benefited from the social impact. Kefra, also, you need to look at things like pacemakers and prosthetic devices and there are hundreds of thousands of things that we take for granted. We think of tang and teflon as the things that maybe that's what we got out of the space program. Really,

that's not the things that we got out of the space program at all. The wristwatch that's on your arm that has a little battery in it. The automatic pumps that pump the insulin in diabetics. All of those kinds of things are direct benefits from the space program. When I talk to people all over the country about these kinds of things, you know, when we first put the first astronaut stuff, we had no idea what it would be like to fly in space. So we started saying, what happens if the person gets into space and can't do anything? What things will they be able to use on their body? Well, they can move their eyes around. They can use their tongue. So we started developing devices that could be operated by the tongue and the eyes. Well, all those devices were set aside when we realized, well, space is not that exotic. A guy still can use his hands and his legs and what have you. So years passed and all of a sudden we said, my God, paraplegics can use those devices that can be blown through

or that you can move your eyes to the left or the right or up or down or whatever and cause machines to cut on our devices to talk for you. I saw a person in the wheelchair the other day who had a device that was talking for him. They could ask questions and all of those things directly came from the space program. In addition to all of those fabulous innovations, we want our listeners to learn how to tap into some of those $13 billion each year that NASA spends, and in order to do that, you have to call. Our number is 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Curtis, I was pulling some information off the internet, NASA's site there, and learned that actually it has quite a number of outreach programs, two minorities and others. There's an urban community enrichment program, the faculty awards for research programs. Tell us some of the things that NASA is doing to encourage participation by minorities. Well, let's kind of go through a chronology of those things. For

instance, with there about 18, about 16 institutions around the country, minority institutions, Hispanic institutions, as well as historically black colleges that are receiving $2 or more million a year to do specific kinds of research. I'm going to give you one of them to kind of show you the kinds of cutting -edge research that's being done by minority institutions. In order for us to get to Mars, in order for us to get to planets that are further than Mars, that maybe planets around other star systems, we're going to be in space a long period of time. So Tuskegee, for instance, is doing research with potatoes, sweet potatoes specifically. That could be grown in space from the seed, and you can eat the vegetable, you can eat the green part of it, you can eat the stem, you can eat the fruit, the potato, you can make flour out of it, you can make pancakes out of it, it's a protein source that is developing all kinds of things that could be grown, it could be done by using the potato that can be

grown hydroponically in water, so you wouldn't even need soil. And if you're going to go on long -duration space flights, you're going to have to find those kinds of products that could be utilized in space so that you can provide food for yourself. So one of those 16 institutions is doing just that, is providing an opportunity for us to look at foodstuffs that could be used in space, and they're doing all kinds of research in laser physics and optics and all kinds of things that are done by minority institutions, Hampton, Howard, Florida, and M and others. What about university scholarships? University scholarships are available through NASA. Not as many now as in the past, but they're still available. The Summer Faculty Fellowship Program is one. We take faculty from minority institutions and bring them into the agency and have them do research. I'm running a brand new program at NASA right now, called the NASA Administrator Fellowship Program, which takes minority faculty from minority institutions and bring them into the agency so that they can do research for two years and takes

NASA into NASA people and take them to minority institutions and have them to teach for two years. So it's an exchange program where NASA people go out and faculty come in so that we can better prepare them for the realities of the real world in science and technology. So there, I mean, so many things, and we could take up this hour in no time flat. Let's go to the phones. We have Libby out of Station WLTR in Columbia, South Carolina. Welcome to PowerPoint. Thank you, Janet. I'm really glad to have discovered you. I am in my home state. I'm a military wife. We are actually back in Vancouver's Air Force. And I was picked up just about the point. I believe you mentioned Ron McNair. Yes, ma 'am. And not too far from his home care to our British Lake City. And of course, I want to pay tribute to him and those who have served with the space program. And it was a privilege to know Ed White who worked with my husband at Wright Patterson Air Force Base before it became an astronaut. So I have always been very supportive of the space program.

I see great gains that we can make. I tend to express my opinions to Congress and those there about town because I don't have to pay long distance when I'm there to call. Wonderful. And I have always urged that they have the, you know, in other words, provide the funding for the space program. And I just wanted to end that support. And also to say that I have wonderful, I've never been down, of course, to the Florida area. But I have been to Edwards Air Force Base where I was on the station and had the joy of going to the NASA Museum there. And of course, I bought it out behind the grandchildren. It's a shop. But I just wanted to pay tribute to those who are still serving in our space program and who have given the precious times of their lives. And to their families, I say thank you. So keep up the good work. And I think more and more people will come to understand that I think it's very vital to our future to provide for this program.

Thank you so much, Larry. Thanks for your calls and call of support. Thank you. We all are going to stick with the phone. It's going to Chris out of the same station in Columbia, South Carolina. Welcome to PowerPoint. Could you please turn your phone down, Chris? Yes. Could you turn your radio down? Yes, okay. I got it down now. Okay. Thank you very much. Yes. I just wanted to say that, you know, I paid a bit of tribute to our native son, Rob. Rob McNair. I served in the legislature at the time when he was with the space program. And what he meant to our community, especially the Afro -American community, and going into classrooms and our schools and doing seminars, we took great pride in that. And that meant so much to so many young. And he's, his memory lives on here in South Carolina. And I know, I know several young people who he's inspired, and are now

one particular. It's the Air Force Academy and Colorado Springs. And so you just can't minimize the good that's been done by our space program, by the African -American participation in that program for our young people in our classrooms. And I just didn't want this time of chance to go by without making that statement. Thank you so much. Chris, this is Curtis Graves at NASA. I agree with you so much. Ron McNair was such a role model. He was a star athlete when he was in Lake City. He was a star athlete when he was at North Carolina A &T. Of the first three African -Americans to go into space, he was the only one who had gone to a minority institution for his undergraduate degree. So he really paid a lot of dues and gave a lot back by visiting with those individuals. I went with him to Lake City on one or two occasions, and I was very proud of what he was doing and giving back to the community. So astronauts do a lot, but beside just flying space.

Thanks again, Chris, for that comment and question. We now go to Andre, station WHY in Philadelphia. Welcome to PowerPoint. Hello. I just turned into, and my station just started carrying a show a few weeks ago, so we're very happy to be on it. Yeah. What my questions are kind of historical. I understand that NASA just honored major Robert H. Lawrence, I believe it's his junior, a few months ago, acknowledging that he was, in fact, in astronaut training. I first heard of him through of all things Jet Magazine. I read an article that some high school, I believe it was, was named after him. I'm not sure if it was something like Chicago or someplace. Could your guests say, tell me more about him and probably how he died and when?

Secondly, another person I learned of some years ago, Pete Peterson. I believe he was an Air Force pilot, and I think he was a member of the Thunderbirds. And he died in a plane crash. In fact, it took the entire group of Thunderbird pilots. I believe it was somewhere in Nevada. I think it was early 80s, 82 or something like that. But I just want to know if your guests knew anything about either those people. Could tell me how they actually perished and were they, in fact, were they the first one and two people in line to become astronauts? Thank you so much, Andre. I believe that Curtis actually was, we were talking a little bit earlier about Major Robert Lawrence. And tell us that story. Well, maybe Kofi would like to go back a little bit to talk about... Kaffir. The Kaffir rather would go back a little earlier to talk about him and when he was selected. Because I don't remember all of that. Do you remember that? Well, Major Robert Lawrence was

part of the Air Force's MOL manned orbiting... I forgot what the initial stand for. Do you remember Curtis? I don't remember. That's the reason I asked you to fill in because that part I don't really remember that well. The MOL program and training. And so the Air Force had a space program. Man orbiting laboratory. Yes, that's what it was. That's what it was. So he had pretty much completed his training. He was a test pilot and he died in an F -104 crash landing at Edwards Air Force Base on the runway there. He tried to eject as a matter of fact, his co -pilot did eject and survived with some injuries. But for some reason, Major Lawrence's shoot did not open and he died there on the runway. The F -104, he was a test pilot and the F -104 has been described as a rocket with wings. So it was

a pretty aggressive piece of machinery. One thing that his wife was very sensitive about was that he was not piloting that aircraft. Right. He was in the back seat so it really wasn't his fault at all. And the plane crashed on takeoff. So they were just a few feet off the ground and unfortunately his shoot did not deploy when he punched out. Right. Right. Now about Pete Peterson, Pete Peterson was never in the astronaut program to my knowledge. Pete Peterson was a Thunderbird pilot and he perished with his whole crew that went down in a training flight. They were practicing some maneuver with the Thunderbirds and all of them went into the ground at one time. He didn't pull up in time and he was the lead pilot. But for Major Lawrence, there was this ceremony. Oh yes. I wanted to mention that. About a month ago, Major Lawrence was posthumously recognized as in fact a person who was in the astronaut training program.

For years, the NASA didn't know how to handle Major Lawrence's, the recognitions about Major Lawrence because of the fact that the Air Force had designated him as a part of this astronaut training program. But he had never really come to NASA yet. So NASA was saying, well we don't know what to and then finally a decision was made that that he would in fact be recognized as one of the people who had lost his life in the astronaut program. At the Kennedy Space Center, if you go now, there's a huge memorial wall there. And his name is inscribed on the wall so that he will be permanently recognized as a person who had given his life in the space program. Our number here at PowerPoint, we're talking about blacks in space is 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. In terms of entrepreneurs, Curtis, is there some special outreach for minority

business people? And if so, give us some sense of its scope. I really don't have the numbers in mind, but I know that there is a, at NASA headquarters, we have a whole division that's dedicated to smaller minority businesses and we do a lot of business with small businesses across the country. So that's a part of the thing that has been going on for a long time. We're talking about blacks in space. We're coming up on 49 minutes after the hour. We're talking with Curtis Graves with NASA and Kefir Burns, a co -author of a book of black stars in orbit. You can join in this discussion by calling 1 -800 -989 -8255. Our discussion on PowerPoint will continue when we come back. Still ahead on PowerPoint. The massacres in Algeria have shocked us all and the world wants to know who's behind the bloodshed and carnage that's claimed the lives of 75 ,000 people. Stay tuned for our tour PowerPoint when we'll talk with the ambassador

from Algeria. Welcome back to PowerPoint. We're talking about blacks in space, both the history of it, opportunities for future participation. You can join this discussion by calling our toll free hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. I was just looking at some of the figures here that I pulled off the net. And for any agency, actually these

aren't bad numbers, Curtis. You got 23 % or about a quarter of senior managers at NASA are either women and or minorities. It says here the representation of women and minorities in NASA has increased from 39 % to about 43%. The minorities employed by NASA increased from about 16 % to 9%. Before the break, we're talking about some of the business that are involved with NASA. NASA's pretty cutting, leading cutting edge technological stuff. Give us some sense of what some black firms are doing in this area. Everything that you can think of, they're computer firms that are designing, that are doing the computer networking and all those kinds of things for the agency. There are firms, number one, we have 10 locations around the country. We have locations in Cleveland that, so I was mentioning it was Air Force Base. We have a Dryden facility there. We have a facility at Ames in California. We have one at the JAPE, the Propulsion Laboratory, one in Houston, one at Langley

in Hampton, Virginia. And then the Houston facility, and I mentioned that one in the Florida facility, I think, oh, and got it. So at all of those facilities, there is an aggressive program to include minority contractors in. So they're doing everything from grounds keeping to very technical work that keeps spacecraft up, that provide the data that we need in order to understand better what's happening in space. Is there some central or location or person or number that anyone, is there a catch -all location for a student, for a business person, faculty person on university, is there some place they can call or contact to see how they might participate in some of these programs? The Office of Equal Opportunity Programs at NASA Headquarters might be a good place. We have a web page and you could look there and get some information. But we also have a small and disadvantaged business office at NASA Headquarters and you could find that on a web page. It's Code K. And through

those two, you could probably get some information about the entrepreneurial piece as well as the minority educational as well as what we're doing, the numbers that you just read about how many minorities are doing various things at NASA. I know there really hasn't been enough numbers to draw any conclusions, but I'm wondering if on the basis of your reporting and writing about the blacks in the space program, whether there were any common threads, whether there were some earlier indications that one might point to and say they all had this in common. I think they all had, like the pilots, the Tuskegee Airmen before them, they all had a dream of flying. They wanted to fly, which is really a common theme among all people, everybody dreams about flying. I love to go up in the space shuttle myself. I love to

fly and when I fly, I love to sit near the window because I can look out and I can see the earth and see. I can only imagine what it's like to be 190 miles up as Fred Gregory describes. And here is this tiny little ball in the vacuum that did vacuum of space, but it's teaming with life. In the rainforest, you can find life by the millions to a quarter inch of soil down to the microscopic. It's just teaming with life, trees, plants, animals. It's really incredible. That's been one of the transforming things I think everybody who's gone up and has actually seen the earth from space. As Fred Gregory would say, you can actually see Houston and how close it is to Mexico City and how close that is to South America and to Africa and to Russia, but there's no boundaries. There's like on the Rand McNally maps,

there's nothing dividing state from state and it's really one world and people come back realizing like Ron McNair did that it doesn't make any sense for people down here to be fighting because it's such a tiny little place when you consider it in the vastness of the dead vastness of space. That also I think speaks to the social issue that Walter brought up earlier. How does this benefit us the more we realize who we are and where we are on this little planet in space. I think folks will a lot of the differences will begin to dissipate and realize that it's much more important that we work together as one world. Fred Gregory, I'm sure that answered your question. Fred Gregory said once and I always remembered that he said I left as a citizen

of Washington DC and after flying I became a citizen of the world because I realized that there were no lines when you get up there and look. I've been raised with those maps with all the lines on them but when you get up there and you look at it you realize that you're really a citizen of this whole planet. We're going to try to take a one more call here. We have Charles out of Baltimore. Welcome to PowerPoint. Great, thank you. Thank you. You know I just was listening to your program this first time I heard it tonight and you know during my years I was on one of the first missile tracting ships. The name of the ship was American Minor and they used to send it off from Cape Carnival and it would break up in the Indian Ocean right off of Cape Town South Africa. And I was thinking the missile program would still come under this program right. Let's get our guest to weigh in on that. Thanks for the question. No, not really. The missile program would be probably under the military and not under NASA. Okay.

And in the closing moments that we have gentlemen tell us if you can why you think today young black kids ought to pay any attention to what's going on at NASA and whether and to what extent you think it's available to them. Well, I think that we are at the dawn of the information age and in order for you to weigh in and in order for you to make a valuable contribution you need to be as computer literate you need to be as articulate you need to be as bright as you can be and the space program gives you that opportunity to dream the impossible dream. And I think this is an opportunity if you are interested in aeronautics and space join us in 10 seconds or less. I agree. I think that this is a human endeavor and as human beings we need to be a part of this. I mean it's like asking why should we have been involved in the discovery of fire or the wheel or

you know this is where human beings are going. Thanks Kefir Burns Curtis Graves for this discussion on blacks in space. I'm Kenneth Walker and this is PowerPoint. February is Black History Month and next time on PowerPoint we make a little history of our own with an historic special broadcast uniting PowerPoint with the American Indian radio on satellite network. Be sure to join us. PowerPoint is made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting's radio program fund. This is PowerPoint, a production of Hicks and Associates. There's

more PowerPoint just ahead in the second hour stay tuned for our monthly Ambassadors Roundtable series where we'll talk this time with Algerian Ambassador Remtame Lamamara about the crisis in Algeria. Stay tuned. Oh. Production and broadcast of PowerPoint is made possible by

a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting. This is PowerPoint and Information Age Clearinghouse for issues affecting the African American community, the nation and the world. And now PowerPoints Kenneth Walker. As the nation is distracted by the political soap opera being played out in the White House, PowerPoint wants to remind you that there are still stories of substance out there and issues that require your attention, thought and action. Consider Algeria. North African nation once colonized by France that won a hard fought war of independence 36 years ago. Today in 1998 Algeria is again at war, but this time it seems to be at war against itself. There are horror stories coming out of Algeria, brutal massacres, helpless women and children by forces known

and unknown. Violence that in six years has left more than 75 ,000 civilians dead, a thousand of them since the beginning of 1998 alone. On this hour of PowerPoint our monthly Ambassadors Roundtable segment will be devoted to their crisis in Algeria, joining us the Algerian Ambassador to the United States, his excellency, Remtame Lamamara. You can speak with Ambassador Lamamara about the crisis in Algeria by calling the PowerPoint hotline. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Our search for answers and this month's edition of the Ambassador's Roundtable will begin in just a moment. But first, PowerPoint news with Verna Avery Brown. This is PowerPoint.

1998 alone. On this hour of PowerPoint our monthly Ambassadors Roundtable segment will be devoted to their crisis in Algeria, joining us the Algerian Ambassador to the United States, his excellency, Remtame Lamamara. You can speak with Ambassador Lamamara about the crisis in Algeria by calling the PowerPoint hotline. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Our search for answers and this month's edition of the Ambassador's Roundtable will begin in just a moment. But first, PowerPoint news with Verna Avery Brown. This is PowerPoint

news and information to empower the community. I'm Verna Avery Brown. President Clinton has outlined a plan to clamp down on Medicare cheaters. The president says Medicare fraud is, quote, a real crime committed by real criminals intent on stealing from the system and cheating on our most vulnerable citizens. No mention in his weekly radio address about his alleged affair with a former White House intern, a topic causing tongues to wag all across America. With the president's schedule to deliver his State of the Union address on Tuesday, PowerPoint wonders how many people will be able to focus on Clinton's message with the most serious threat to his presidency to date, looming in the background, unaddressed by the president. With some answers to that question and others about the scandal, we took our microphone to 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, the street in front of the White House. Will this scandal looming over his presidency influence the way you hear his State of the Union message next week? I don't think so. No, no. I think it can be very objective about it, really. So if the president is found to have

obstructed justice, shitty resign in America? Yes. I wish it was on something more important. I know we're talking about the president and his alleged affair, but I would be much more interested in knowing more about what happened to, for instance, the two bombs that are missing in Colorado or what's going on in Iraq or what's going on in Bosnia when the troops are coming back. I think that's much more important. And that's just my opinion. Will this interfere with the way you hear the president's state of the Union address next week? It'll always be in the back of my mind, yes. Sure will. Personally, I believe that public and private affairs really should be separated. Well, if it is determined that the president actually obstructed justice, do you think that he should resign? Well, that means that his public conduct actually gets, or his private affairs actually get in a way as public conduct, and I think there should be some way of reprimandation, however, I don't think that resignation is a problem means to do that. It's Teflon Bill. It's like really hanging caught with night. I'm serious.

It's probably what it goes. I don't think anything's going to really stick to him. He's going, no, it's kind of something. I guess it tells you the condition of our country. I don't think people are going to be up raised about this first second. But as long as things are going well, the economy's up. We're going to attack Iraq, and the public's attention is diverted to other things, which are, which I really think nation -nation -nation, why more important is going to blow up. The White House reportedly has concluded that a military strike against Iraq is likely within a few weeks unless Saddam Hussein stops interfering with UN weapons inspectors. And Iraqi newspapers says the U .S. might use such an attack to divert attention away from the president's sex scandal. At least 23 civilians were killed by gunmen and bombers in Algeria Saturday. The Daily newspaper Liberté reports eight gunmen wearing government guards uniforms killed three peasants in Algiers on Friday. According to Liberté, the assailants attempted to massacre inhabitants of a Medea region village, but the villagers fled. Since the start of the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, 1200 people have been massacred. Estimates of the death toll vary

between 65 ,000 to 80 ,000. The violence began in 1992 when the guerrillas took up arms following the cancellation of a general election in which radical Islamists were winning. And finally, if you're a fan of jazz and art, this report by Cheryl Flowers from San Francisco, on an exhibit that could be headed soon to your city. From Big Band Jazz to paintings and literature, the richness of the Harlem Renaissance has been captured by new multimedia exhibit called Rhapsody's in Black, which had its first U .S. opening this week in San Francisco. And Richard Powell, co -curator, says that the term Harlem Renaissance is actually a metaphor. If one understands that the term Harlem Renaissance means black creative creativity and black modernism, then it's applicable. I'm not just for a period of the 1920s and 1930s, it has resonance and meaning for our lives now. Sociologists and exhibit committee member Dr. Joelle Taylor Gibbs agrees that the Harlem Renaissance has had a

lasting legacy. Well, it brings back my early childhood when my parents used to take me down to Harlem when I was a little girl. And I used to see some of these very glamorous people and we would go to the Apollo Theater. And I still have memories about a wonderful time and that was before Harlem really became what is now called an inner city. American blacks have really contributed a great deal of culture, music, literature and art to the American social fabric. Actor Danny Glover. And somewhat it puts in perspective this whole journey that we've made. You get a sense of what that period has been. We're talking about artists who've been, who painted, sculpted, or, you know, did whatever, took photographs from the turn of the century. Rhapsody's in black begins touring nationally this spring. For PowerPoint news, I'm Cheryl Flowers. Also on the exhibit's scheduled tour, Washington DC, Los Angeles, North and South Carolina and Houston, Texas. For

PowerPoint news and information, I'm Berna Avery Brown. Welcome back to PowerPoint. I'm Kenneth Walker. Algeria has a long shared history with United States and joined diplomatic relations since 1795. More recently, Algeria, a nation rich in oil and gas, has cooperated with American security interests in the Middle East and the Persian Gulf. Algerian diplomats played a vital role in ending the Iranian hostage crisis and have occasionally served as intermediaries in the search for peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors. But over the past few years, many Americans

have watched in horror as tens of thousands of Algerian men, women and children have been brutally massacred in a struggle that seems to be between the government and the supporters of Islamic fundamentalists. This discussion on PowerPoint this hour, who's doing the killing in Algeria and more importantly, what can possibly be done to bring it to an end? We invite your questions and comments on this tragedy by calling our toll -free hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. Here with answers to some of these critical questions, we are very pleased to have his excellency, the Algerian ambassador to the United States, Lamatne Lamamra. Mr. Ambassador, welcome. Thank you, Kenneth. Too many Americans, they must be bewildered at the scale of slaughter that has been reported to be coming out of your country. Can you give us some background

on what actually is going on there? Well, it's quite natural that every human being gets absolutely stand and horrified by the killings of innocent civilians in Algeria on the hands of Islamic fundamentalists. What is happening is quite clear, here you have a minority within the Algerian society, which has decided to lead a drive to impose its own views on the majority of the people by using terrible means, which is essentially indiscriminate violence, directed against defenseless civilians who reject the fundamentalists and don't assist them easily. In any way, in their drive against the government, as a matter of fact, the Islamic fundamentalists have been striving to achieve two things since the beginning of this crisis.

They first wanted to isolate the government from its own society, and they targeted on a priority basis all the people who were working for the government, be they civil servants, military, or even journalist intellectuals. Not to forget, of course, women, because women playing an active role in the society is just at odds with their concept of life and existence. At the same time, the Islamic fundamentalists have also tried attempted to isolate the country from the international community, and that is why they have targeted foreigners visiting or staying in Algeria. This two -fold strategy has failed, and that is why now the only purpose behind these shootings is to weaken the government by doing such things that show that the government is not capable of

protecting its civilian population all around the national territory, which is quite huge, as you know. And they attempt, at the same time, to put the government in a no -in situation, that is to say, either you have to confess that you are unable to rule the country by providing your civilian population with the required security, or some of the segments within the government are involved when we are there or the other in the killing. So this is the kind of no -in situation that is helpful in their propaganda to get some foreign support or some foreign sympathy. We want to explore some of those aspects that you just mentioned, but in fact, this controversy, this what seems to be a civil war actually began, didn't it? When the supporters of the Islamic fundamentalists, I believe the Islamic Salvation Front, if I'm not mistaken, won the first round of elections in late 1991, and the government canceled the second round

in 1992 because it looked like they were going to sweep to office. Kenneth, I think that is just partially, partially true only. Active acts of terrorism did begin in Algeria in the 80s. We have had the same fundamentalist groups who took weapons against the government at the time when the government did feel the need to open up the society and to accept the very idea that the civil society can organize itself within the country. There were non -political associations at that time, under the umbrella of some religiously -oriented associations, the fundamentalists started showing their presence on the society and trying to impose their views on the rest of the society to the extent that in the year 1985 there was a group that took weapons against the government. It took the government three years to come to terms with that terrorist group

and some of the leaders of that particular terrorist group who have been sentenced to death, then who have benefited of an amnesty, decrypted by the government, where among the leaders of the terrorist groups who again resorted to violence, happened the consolation of the electoral process by the end of 1991. So that technical aspect of electoral process being suspended for a variety of good reasons, technical constitutional, psychological, political, did not ignite terrorism because in that case one would have to believe in spontaneous generation to be convinced that groups of armed people were just waiting for a certain measure to be taken by government. I would agree that the violence escalated smoothly. You're listening to the two PowerPoints ambassadors round table, we have the

privilege of talking to his ex -excellency, the Algerian ambassador to the United States, Lamamara. You can join this discussion by calling our Toffy Hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. Mr. Ambassador, the pace of the violence seems especially sharp around the holy month of Ramadan and seems this year to have been particularly brutal. That leads a lot of people to ask, one, why the government is not better at either faroting out what people it calls terrorist or to protecting the people in the villages where most of these massacres have occurred. You know, Kenneth, there is a lot of discussions around what the government does and what the government does not. The fact of the matter is that the government

has been putting in place a comprehensive response to terrorism of which the security response is one of the elements. The comprehensive response of the government involves tackling the underlying causes of terrorism. Some of the underlying causes are of political nature, that is why the government has undertaken to put in place multi -party representative institutions and for the first time in the history of the Algerian nation by the end of the year 1997. All institutions from the top to the bottom of the state pyramid are now democratically elected multi -party institutions. The second set of responses to the underlying causes of terrorism are certainly the measures involving economic and social

activity in order to alleviate the grievances of some marginalized youth in the country. Those are all fundamental underlying causes or solutions as you point out, but the more immediate situation of being protected from immediate murder and homicide, some of these many in fact of the more recent massacres have occurred almost within shouting distance of police or military installations yet they seem to remain in their barracks. Indeed, the security response to terrorism has been developing the Algerian government exactly like any other government is not prepared 100 % to prevent all over its national territory terrorist acts from happening. I think even in this country with much better equipped law enforcement agencies, more experienced terrorist acts did

happen and are likely to happen. The Algerian government has been implementing it on strategy and if you look at the evolutionary progress of the Algerian response security response to terrorism, you will find that in the year 1997, for instance, not a single journalist, Algerian journalist has been assassinated murdered by terrorists. Not a single foreigner has been murdered while in the previous years you can see the record and find that these two categories are among the main groups which were targeted by terrorists. So it means that the so -called hard targets are not any more accessible to the terrorists who now are going after defenseless civilians in various places of the country and be it yards or few miles from Algeria or elsewhere is not that much important. And the fact

is you don't know when terrorists will hit, you don't know when a car bump will explode and prevention is extremely difficult when you have to face a phenomenon such as terrorism. I just have to ask you how would you respond to that? I think that's outrageous. First of all, of course, you mentioned a certain number of sources, not all the sources did speak the same way to this issue. You mentioned Iran, of course, Iran is not a credible source when it comes to terrorism. You know that Iran has been sponsoring terrorism. You have mentioned in your introductory remarks the fact that Iran has been holding 50 to

American diplomats in their Taran embassy for 444 days and that it was thanks to the Algerian. The good offices that we could secure the release of those innocent diplomats. So Iran is being involved even today in supporting and making and sponsoring terrorism in Algeria. As far as Minister Farahan is concerned, I think if I aren't correctly what he stated, he did say that the barbarian acts of terror which are committed in Algeria cannot in any way be linked to Islam. Islam is innocent of such cruel and barbarian behavior and they fully share this judgment of Minister Farahan. In Algeria we are all Muslims and what is happening here is an attempt on the part of the fundamentalist to exert sort of spiritual piracy. They claim

that the religion belongs to them and to them only and by so doing they claim that they're reading their interpretation. Their very narrow mind and interpretation of the religion is the only one which has to be imposed on the rest of the society. So indeed Islam is absolutely innocent of all the crimes which are being committed sometimes in the name of Islam. We are talking with Ambassador Lamamra from Algeria to the United States about the tragedy in Algeria. Our number is 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. We're going to go to the phones now. We have Barry with station WFSS in Fayetteville, Mississippi. Welcome. Thank you. North Carolina. North Carolina, I apologize. Thank you. Let me first congratulate you Kenneth on a great show. Thank you. I'm listening to you in spite of the Super Bowl. We're doubly grateful. Good evening,

Ambassador. Good evening, Barry. You kind of sort of answered my question really that I had because it seems to me that the base is a problem that you're having in Algeria with the terrorist acts. It seems to be a religious one. And what I want to know is contrary to what you just said about Islam being non -violent religion in so many words, there are some Islamic organizations and religious groups that believe that somehow by doing these terrorist acts that they're going to be rewarded by Allah. And my question is what is being done to answer some of those religious views of Islam that seem to be the basis of these terrorist acts? Well, I agree with you that some fundamentalist segments in our societies, as I said just a few minutes ago, try to monopolize the teachings of Islam and to

impose on the rest of the society their narrow -minded interpretation of the teachings of Islam. But Islam, like exactly any other religion, is a tolerant religion, is a religion which is based on love which prescribes really the values of tolerance and love for your neighbor and for all human beings. Here you have an attempt to use religion for political purposes, an attempt to try to just say that we are the party of God, whoever is not with us is against us, and their interpretation goes on that whoever is not with them therefore deserves to be killed. And you know, in the history of Christianity we have had a few centuries ago in acquisition and we have had some kind of barbarian behavior which cannot really be

considered as the responsibility of the teachings of the religion. So the problem is with how some people, minority view within any given religion, is being translated in daily life of the people and is being translated unfortunately in terms of violent action. You are listening to PowerPoints and ambassadors round table, we are speaking with the Algerian ambassador to the United States, Ambassador Lamamra. He is talking about the tragedy, the bloodletting in Algeria, you can join this discussion by calling our Tofi hotline at 1 -800 -989 -8255. Mr. Ambassador, your government has also been very adamant about any foreign government comment or so -called investigation of this issue. We did admit a European community delegation this past

week, but why is it so adamant on perhaps some dialogue with foreign governments trying to facilitate some dialogue between the government and the opposition? Well, kid, let me first make one point clear here. One should not get the impression that here you have a country which is cloistered, the country that is completely closed to the outside world that would be totally, totally untrue. As a matter of fact, Algeria is a signatory to all the treaties for bidding proliferation of nuclear weapons and other weapons of mass distractions, and as you know mass distractions, there are some provisions on outside monitoring and Algeria does accept that. Equally, Algeria is a signatory to 23 conventions and treaties aimed at promoting and protecting human rights, and those treaties equally contain

some monitoring and follow -up mechanisms that require visits and reporting. And Algeria gladly does that. When it comes to the economy, you know also that Algeria has a program with the International Monetary Fund and our own economic reforms are being discussed with the IMF in Washington, D .C. So, openness is there. But when it comes to the idea, the what I call the politically motivated idea of international investigation, we disagree with that because that is built on a premise and the set of assumptions that we reject. And I will tell you that, first of all, the premise is unlike all what I mentioned about human rights, arms of mass distraction, economic reforms. Here, the premise is that you don't have a sovereign government which is facing a difficult situation and which cops with situation the best they could. And the situation here with the idea

of an investigation is that really you have two camps fighting each other and the outside world has to come and see whether there is a genuine legitimate government or not. But not only investigations, Mr. Ambassador, the Algerian Minister for Cooperation has announced that the government was turning down offers of humanitarian aid to some of the survivors of the maskers. Yes, let's put that in perspective. That is in the context of our discussions with the European Union. The European Union, some of the European Union countries do have terrorist networks in their own territories, dormant territories, terrorists to networks. So, we want to discuss that with them. Okay, well, we will discuss that. When we come back, we're coming up on 29 minutes after the hour. We're talking about what, if anything, can be done. About the bloodshed in Algeria, we have his excellency, the Ambassador to the United States. Ambassador Lamamra, our discussion will continue

when we come back. Internet services for PowerPoint are provided by World African Network, offering news, information, sports and entertainment for African and African -American communities through Internet, broadband and new media technologies. The web address is www .world .africanet .com PowerPoint is made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting's Radio Program Fund. Welcome back to PowerPoint. We're talking with our

guest, Algerian Ambassador Lamamra, to the United States. We're talking about what, if anything, can be done to stop the bloodheading. In Algeria, our number here at PowerPoint is 1 -800 -989 -8255 -189 -898255. Before we go to the phones, Mr. Ambassador again, you were mentioning before the break that there are networks in European and presumably other Western countries like America, that you think are supporting these terrorist elements inside Algeria. Could you elaborate on that? I think it is well known that in some of the European countries, money is being collected for the terrorist in Algeria, weapons are being smuggled to be used in Algeria, propaganda is disseminated in some of these European countries. And the basic international obligation that makes it for every government compulsory to take appropriate measures so that crimes

are not prepared on their own territory, even if they were to be committed elsewhere, we believe that this basic obligation is not being upheld by a certain number of governments. And beyond that, some of these terrorist groups, dormant networks, did blow up bombs in Paris, for instance. And when that happened, you will find some people in the media asking whether it's the terrorists who have done that or whether it is the Algerian government who was responsible of that. So the fact here is that we want a political dialogue, a comprehensive political dialogue with the Europeans to tackle all these issues, if we accept the basic premise that what Algerian needs is really some humanitarian assistance, would have missed the point and would not have served the cause of a genuine fight

against terrorism. Okay, we're going to go to the phones now. We have Francis with out of station WHY and Philadelphia. Welcome to PowerPoint Francis. Yes, good evening. Good evening. Do you have a comment or question for us? Yes, please. Go right ahead. I mean, I have with all due respect, I'm an African, with all due respect to the ambassador and to the people of Algeria, all over Africa. You have these from Nigeria to Algeria to Rwanda and all these countries where you have leaders taking power, the military, the people had an election. When they thought that the so -called fundamentalists, element of the fundamentalists were going to seize power, the military stepped in and aborted a legal election in Algeria. Now, tell me something. I mean, if you want people to develop, they have to have freedom of expression and this is one of the most serious

problems all over Africa. These leaders, the military people are just there, sitting on top of the people, draining them, putting them on marginalizing them. And this is what's happening in Algeria right now. Let's get the ambassador an opportunity to comment on a very vital question, Francis, that I want to thank you for. Why isn't this just another African dictatorship, Mr. Ambassador? I gather that's the thrust of Francis's question. Yes, I gather so well Francis, first of all, I think there is no one size fits all answer to what you are saying. The problems of Nigeria, I assure you, Rwanda are quite different from the problems of Algeria and vice versa. We are indeed on the continent of Africa, a continent that is in transition towards pluralism, in transition towards market economy. And merely by leading such a transition, we face some obstacles, some objective problems. Each one of the 52 African nations is facing and

is coping with tremendous hardship in moving towards the 21st century. Now, the uniform approach to our problems is not likely to get you the facts right. In the case of Algeria, you speak of an abortion, it may have been a natural miscarriage. The electoral process was done in a hasty manner. The society was not fully prepared for multi -party competition. The electoral movement actually was the same argument made in Nigeria, by the way, I'm sure you are aware. It is possible, I mean, the democratic process is not just about technicalities. It involves also culture. It involves democratic practices. It involves the certainty, a certain degree of certainty, that the majority would indeed respect the constitution right of minority. And in our case, we

know for certain that the inherent philosophy of fundamentalists is really to take power in a way to keep it forever. It's one vote, one man, one son for all. This is one time, absolutely. So you cannot say that that is an end democratic behavior or culture on the part of the majority of the Algerian people. And make no mistake about it in all the democratic processes, as they say. It's the second set of elections that is more important. The first is just the mid -launching of a process. We're going to go to the phones. I believe I've tried to pronounce that correctly out of station W -H -Y -Y in Philadelphia. Welcome to PowerPoint. Yes, this is Hassan A. question for the ambassador. Go right ahead. Yes, Hassan A. Thank you. Question that I have is...

Turn your radio down. Would you please? Could you turn your radio down a bit? Yes. Mr. Ambassador, as you talked about that security forces is evolving to combat these attacks and all this things. From what I understand, this thing has been going on for the last six years. And I don't know how long it takes to evolve a security system. And what kind of steps have we gone and captured these perpetrators? I mean, more recently, these attacks have been at a strong throw from military and police stations in the capital city. What has these perpetrators been captured? Thank you so much, Hassan A. for that question. Yes, Hassan A. Many terrorists have been captured. And of course, the information, the media in the U .S. don't report all the integrity of the situation. But there are many trials and there are terrorists, repenting terrorists who speak on the Algerian TV and who explain exactly what is their psychological profile. You have courts of law

who pass judgments on these situations. Now, when it comes to whether the security forces respond immediately and in all cases or not to some of these situations, as I said earlier, it's extremely difficult for any government whatever the strength and the forces can be to prevent terrorism at a 100 percent level. We have Sam out of station WHY White and Philadelphia. Welcome to PowerPoint, Sam. Hi, Sam. I've listened to your show for quite some time now and I'm listening to the ambassador. It's really nice hearing from him. Thank you. Basically, my question is, it just seems that the killing has been really escalating in the past couple of months. And you've talked really about strategies of the Algerian government and what they've been doing to try to reduce the terrorist attacks and so forth. Does the Algerian government feel that they might have to change their strategies in the

future? Because they really don't seem to be working very well at the time being. That's basically it. Do you foresee to have a change in those strategies and if so, what might they be? Thanks, Sam. Thank you, Sam. The strategies are indeed evolving for the first two or three years after the crisis erupted. And we believed that the existing security forces, police, national guard could cope with it. And we found out that for us to protect our vital economic facilities, to protect civilian population, we needed the armed forces to be involved. Therefore, we passed the law authorizing the armed forces to be involved. Now, within the Algerian armed forces, you have to know that 80 % of the troops are conscripts and draftees. People who are there for 18 months, you cannot expect on the part of

draftees, expertise in every kind of guerilla warfare, be it urban or in the rural world. So, it has, again, evolved when you had large groups of citizens living in remote villages of the country requesting the government to grant them weapons to defend themselves. Again, we have had to pass a new law authorizing the government to grant weapons to civilians and to organize these civilians within what we call people's self -defense groups, who defend their villages and their houses and their families, and their supervision of the judiciary and the civilian forces. Has there been any question about whether some of these groups, these civilian groups, the government is arming, may in fact be responsible for some of the massacres? You know, in a situation like this, you will always have some cases of misconduct, of brutality. We do have them everywhere else, police brutality and so forth. These cases are clearly

identified and there are either disciplined or prosecuted before courts of law. But this is by no means a moral equivalent of the atrocities which are being committed by terrorists at a large scale. You're listening to PowerPoint's ambassadors round table with Ambassador Lamamra from Algeria to the United States. We're talking about what, if anything, can be done to stop the bloodshed in Algeria. Our toll free hotline is 1 -800 -989 -8255. That's 1 -800 -989 -8255. We go to Justice, out of station WVAS in Montgomery, Alabama. Welcome to PowerPoint. Thank you, brother. I concur with a couple of callers back. And as far as the ambassador there, brother, you are named after a spiritually guided honorable person, Lamamra. I don't see how you can sit there

wearing his name and spread the false propaganda that you are doing. First of all, let's go back to six years ago when you military took over and suspended the free elections there. You did it in order to prevent the Algerian monies of Jarrate from voting in the fundamentalist to set up a fundamentalist government because they realized your corrupt government of greed was not to meet in their needs there. Now you're fostered, labeling those fundamentalist freedom fighters as being terrorists. That's a mark of the Western world. Now, why would the fundamentalist who had the support of the populist, why would they be out there murdering and killing their support base? You know that's the military doing that. And the last couple, before we answer that, let me say this and then I'll hang up. Okay. Now, all the countries of color worldwide, the puppets under the influence of the Western world, they believe in using this overwhelming violence against the masses of their people to instill fear because fear is mind -controlled and that's what you're doing in Algeria. This was me and Don here a few weeks ago in Mexico and it was also

done in Bosnia. And now, since this so -called democracy has not served the needs which you don't practice it now anyway, the needs of the people, why not allow the freedom of fundamentalist to set up a fundamentalist government that would serve the needs of our people. And for the brother in Mississippi, brother, I will just country found that he established he wasn't not found on non -violent passage. Justice, you raised a lot of points there and I want to thank you for them and we want to give the ambassador a chance to respond to some of them. I was in Jacksonville, you see, a few months back and I would have loved to meet you and to discuss with you this, all these issues at length. And you have indeed raised many questions, Justice, and of course... The fundamental question, though, Mr. Ambassador, I take that was Justice's point, was that the... Why would supporters of the Islamic Salvation Front who, whether it was flawed or not, most Westerners anyway believe one in an election in 1991? Why would they now proceed to be

killing the people who would most likely be expected to support them? Well, first of all, there have been other elections since then and the majority of the Algerian people did have a chance to pass a constitution to elect a new president of the Republic. And the first Salvation Front has boycotted all those elections, yes. Absolutely, but the Islamic Salvation Front does not have monopoly on the Islamist leaning on the Algerian political scene. As we speak now, we have 28 % of the membership of the Lower House in Algeria comprised of non -violent Islamists. So, the Islamists are full partners in the institution building process and in democratic life in Algeria. Now, to your question, whether the fundamentalists have any reason whatsoever, of course, to kill people. Of course, there can be no moral justification or political justification for mass killings like this, but you have to look enough to Afghanistan, for instance.

Are there Muslims killing each other? Can you say that merely by being fundamentalists, there is no way for them to engage into irrational behavior and to kill their breathes? In this case, the fact is that fundamentalists everywhere kill people, they have narrow -minded approach to the problems under the society and they are not Democrats. The escalation of the killings is, to me, extremely clear, it tends to serve a simple objective to weaken the government, to delegitimize the government and to take back the government is possible by showing that the government is not capable of protecting the civilian population in the country. You've got to admit they've been doing a pretty good job of advancing that idea in the last several weeks, anyway. No, perhaps that is the perception outside the country, but believe me, inside Algeria, the entire population now has been turning against them.

People who just ride the bus and don't know whether they have a chance to reach the marketplace or not, I mean, you cannot expect any sympathy on the part of the majority of the people for such killers. Our number here at Powerpoint is 1 -800 -989 -8255. It's 1 -800 -989 -8255. We go to Charles, out of station W -H -Y -Y in Philadelphia. Welcome to Powerpoint. Yes, sir Walter, thank you. Hello. Hello. Yes, Mr. Ambassador. Hi, Charles. Fine, thank you. I have a simple solution for the problem in Algeria. Go ahead. I think the organization of African unity should declare the place redundant and take it over and send these people back to the Middle East where they came from. You know, we've temmed the British all over Africa, we've temmed the Portuguese, we've temmed the Boas, but these are the people that are very hard to tem. Look at the amount of land that these people occupy in the northern part of Africa. These people

have no business. When you say these people, Charles, when you say these people, who are you talking about? The guy who is sitting across from you there. Who you think is? He's an Arab. He's from the Middle East. Yes, and most Algerians are Arabs, yes? Yes, they were the first set of people to occupy the continent of Africa. Don't you want to go into the history of that? These people don't belong. They've profited their stay. These people must be sent back to the Middle East and let's take back our land. Okay, well thank you. Charles, I have been the Algerian ambassador to the organization of African unity for a few years. Believe me, most African nations, especially the ones who had to fight for their independence after Algeria itself got its independence in 1962, would probably tell you that there is no doubt whatsoever about the Africanity of Algerians or about their full commitment to the prosperity and stability of the continent. You mentioned earlier, Mr. Ambassador, this problem of fundamentalist in

not only your country, but Afghanistan and their other countries. I think in Turkey, they're struggling with this question of secular versus the Islamic fundamentalist in Pakistan, a number. We're coming up on 49 minutes after the hour, but when we come back after the break, I'd like to discuss to what extent you think this is a global phenomenon and to what extent it has global connections in terms of secular government versus so -called Islamic fundamentalist. We're talking with Ambassador Lamamur from the state of Algeria to the United States. Our discussion will continue when we come back. February is Black History Month and next time on PowerPoint, we make a little history of our own with an historic special broadcast, uniting PowerPoint with the American Indian Radio on Satellite Network. Be sure to join us. Welcome back to

PowerPoint. I'm Kenneth Walker. Our discussion is with his Excellency, the Ambassador to the United States from Algeria, Ramtan Lamamra. We're talking about what, if anything, can be done to stem the bloodshed there. Our number here at PowerPoint is 1 -800 -989 -8255. It's 1 -800 -989 -8255. Before we took a break, Mr. Ambassador, we were talking about the global dimensions of this reality, the so -called Islamic fundamentalist battling so -called secular power in Algeria, in Turkey, in Afghanistan, and other countries. Is there some master plan here being directed, many people accuse Iran of directing Islamic revolution in countries? Is there something going on here? Absolutely. I agree that Iran tries to export its revolution and to destabilize as many Muslim countries as possible, be there on the Asian continents or on the

African continent. Now, fundamentalism is not a feature which is exclusive to Islam. We do have fundamentalism in other religions, and fundamentalism is whenever it is just a personal way of understanding and practicing one's religion, that is fine. But when it translates into violent action, into a drive to impose one's views on the rest of the society, that is danger it acquires a totalitarianist dimension, and like all ideologies that are not built on the freedom of individuals, I think it has to be fought back very seriously because it is a danger for all civilized people. But I guess the basic question is, are we looking at identical actors or players in each of these controversies that so far as Muslim countries are

concerned? Do you see common sources of support, financial or material or otherwise to some of these struggles that are going on in countries especially Algeria? Let me say that for us, fundamentalism is not at all an Islamic revolution, let alone Islam's Renaissance. It is a movement of protest against inequalities, against carrying various grievances, and some states, some governments do sponsor this kind of terror. They try to expand their own influence throughout the Muslim world through sponsoring, supporting, training, arming these groups of adventurers, and in the case of Algeria we have broken our diplomatic relations with Iran, with the Iranian regime back in March 1993,

and all the statements of support on the part of Iran that you hear these days for the terrorists in Algeria incriminating the government stem from the fact that the Iranian regime is really behind the killings, one way or the other behind the killings in Algeria. Let's return if we can to the question of whether people outside Algeria can visit Algeria for purposes either of humanitarian aid or looking around. The head of the European delegation that just visited Algeria expressed regret that Algeria would not grant access to journalists to come in and report that as false. We have had, in the year 1997, 600 journalists, they have been protected by our security forces. What year was this? Last year, 1997. We have had three elections, and at each one of the elections, 400 journalists wanted to be there. We have been granting visas.

60 minutes, CBS, 60 minutes was there. Last week on Sunday, they did broadcast their piece on Algeria. I just don't find any justification for the kind of, but I take this opportunity to say that it's extremely difficult for Algerian journalists to get visas in UK and other European countries, for instance. Sometimes it's reciprocity. The Algerian government has to stick to this principle of reciprocity. If, in fact, as it appears, the violence has been escalating lately and seems to cry out for new solutions or new tactics. Is the government prepared to do anything differently, either to defuse or contain the situation? I think when you look at it in statistical terms, indeed you get the feeling that the situation is escalating. But when you look at it through a historic process, when you learn lessons from what did take place throughout the last six years, you

will find out that terrorism is being defeated and that terrorism has no future whatsoever in Algeria. We have full confidence in ourselves. If you sit where I sit and you just read in the newspapers or watching the television and you see the morning Algerian women and you see the hundreds and hundreds of yards of newly dug graves, what do you mean they're losing this thing? What evidence can you give us in our listeners that they are being defeated? You know my way of looking at it is you have people resorting to terrorist action to guerrilla warfare. Historically, we have a proof that guerrilla warfare cannot succeed if it is not supported by large segments of the population. The terrorists have been rejected by the civilian population because they are going after the civilian population that at a certain time did grant them some kind of support. You understand that without the support of the

people, the terrorists become like fish outside the water and fish even if they are sharks, they cannot live long time outside the water. So you don't anticipate any new dialogue, any new talks with some of the opposition in Algeria to bring all of this to occur? Opposition is an integral part of the democratic process in Algeria. As I told you earlier non -violent Islamists do have 28 % of the seats in the parliament and seven cabinet ministers are non -violent Islamists. Now, if you are addressing yourself specifically to the killers, I hate to believe that anyone in the civilized world would suggest to us that we should offer the terrorists to trade in their knives, access and bombs, for seats on the parliament or on the Supreme Court. You cannot do that. That will have to be the last word on the subject. Mr. Ambassador, we here at

Powerpoint and I'm sure many of our listeners can only hope we can only pray that the killing stops and that some solution is found. We want to thank you so much. Thank you. Ambassador Ramtan Lamamra. Thank you, Algeria, to the United States for participating in this discussion. I'm Kenneth Walker. Our discussion has been on the killing in Algeria. Thanks for joining us. We'll see you next week. The creators of Powerpoint include executive producer Reggie Hicks, senior producer Tony Regusters, producer and show director Debbie Williams, PowerPoint news producer Verna Avery Brown, associate producer Tom Woodward, phone screener Kay Marshall, audio engineer Neil T. Valt, legal affairs, theodore Brown. Our announcer is Candy Shannon. Powerpoint's theme is from the CDF stops by Craig Harris. For Powerpoint, I'm Kenneth Walker. Powerpoint is made possible by a grant from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting's radio

program fund. This is Powerpoint, a production of Hicks and Associates. Thanks for joining us.