To The Best Of Our Knowledge; Demanding Democracy

What does democracy look like? You should decide your own dream. Inventory of ideas for everybody. From Wisconsin Public Radio and PRI, Public Radio International, it's democracy, a short history of a big idea, a special series from to the best of our knowledge. Idea is magic. I'm Jim Fleming, this hour demanding democracy. Everyone's vote is supposed to count in America, we're all supposed to have an equal stake in the country's future. The truth is, some people really are more equal than others. Votes and influence and access to power can be bought. And where does that leave the disenfranchised? Locked out or in the streets? We talk with the kind of people who don't just sit home. They demand the equitable democracy of their dreams, from Cornell West and Tava Smiley, to wiki the ex -activist Julian Assange, to the very first Tea Party activist. To simply tell you the dream. What's the ideal public conversation? Closing of people. What's

the ideal? First, philosopher Cornell West is one of the most visible public intellectuals in the US. Tava Smiley is, after Oprah, the best known black media figure in the country. They co -host a weekly public radio talk show, in which they frequently take on the mainstream media and the political establishment, both of which they blame for ignoring the disenfranchisement of the working poor. Steve Paulson talks with him about the state of American democracy. Let me just start with a very basic question, and I'll just throw it to either one of you, whoever wants to pick this up first. Are African -Americans still disenfranchised? Well, I think it depends on what you mean by disenfranchised. Look at the legal level. You've got the disproportionate number of felons, the ON2 racists, criminal justice system, who are unable to vote on implementing access to jobs with the living wage. When you talk about right to housing, still the right to health care. You can

give them a new health care bill under Obama administration. There's certain fundamental rights stipulated by the UN Declaration rights that many Americans don't have, not just black people. And so it depends on what you mean by disenfranchise. Mm -hmm, tapas? African -Americans, even with a black man in the White House, that's president, African -American still lag far behind in every single leading economic indicator category. There's not a single economic indicator category where African -Americans do not lag far behind, and some weeks ago when that Pew research study came out, Steve, that talked about the loss of black wealth, that talked about the gap between the have -gots and the have -nots in black and white terms. It underscores yet a game that not only are we disenfranchised to your question, we are more disenfranchised now than we've been in a long time. Life for African -Americans in this country right now is at depression -era levels. We've been hearing this phrase, you know, this is the worst recession since the great depression. We've heard

that across the board. The worst recession since the Great Depression. Well, for black folk, we are now at depression -era levels. And the real danger is that when Obama was ushered into the White House, this conversation began amongst our colleagues, Steve, that we are now living in a post -racial America, Dr. Weston. I push back on that consistently. America may be, indeed, is less racist to have elected Obama as president, less racist, but not post -racial. Well, let me ask about it. You've both mentioned Barack Obama here. You know, you've got a black president. It seemed to be the epitome of the enfranchisement of African -Americans. Well, at the legal level, there's no doubt that the election of a brilliant charismatic president Barack Obama was a major breakthrough given the history of slavery and Jim Crow. The problem is, he's a, I mean, no conservative broad neoliberal at home. And therefore, he's still very much a part of the structural strength of a

system that is fundamentally tilted against poor and working people. So, again, at the legal level, he represents unprecedented achievement. That's a beautiful thing. That's symbolic. It results from tremendous struggle, black, white, red, yellow, and others. But when you look at right -to jobs with a living wage, right -to quality housing, right -to health care, right -to safety in a community without bullets flowing, he's still seeing this portion of the number of black folks. How much of that responsibility goes to the president, in this case, to Barack Obama? I mean, can you hold him accountable for this? I mean, you know, it's a huge bureaucracy that he's in charge of. Huge political problems. My brother, to have a smile, I'm always so, so blessed to work with, after 20 -something years, he wrote a book called Accountable. So, I think he's got a lot saved by accountability of the president. I think every president has to be held accountable when Barack Obama, President Obama, says to black America, as he has said many

times, when I ask specifically why he won't address head -on problems that plague the black community. He has said consistently, I'm the president of all of America. As if black folks somehow aren't Americans, too. Black folks need to have their issues addressed, and in some cases, redressed, not because they're black, but because they're catching the most tail, because they're the ones most in pain, because they're the ones who are having lives that are becoming less and less democratized on a regular basis, so that if you were in a car accident, Steve, and they rushed you to the hospital with the head trauma, I would hope they would not start operating on your left foot. You respond to where the pain is most acute, and so in that regard, black folks and brown folks for that matter, and Native American brothers and sisters are not asking for respect and not asking for resources, because they're black, you know, red, yellow, or brown, but because that is where the pain is most acute, again, back to that few study of weeks ago, about where this

country is feeling the pain the most, and so every president has to be held accountable, but I believe that we have to understand that accountability is a beautiful thing. If you ever find yourself in a relationship personally or professionally, and your partner does not want to be held accountable, get out as quickly as you can. Accountability is a good thing in relationships, indeed, for politicians. The bottom line is this, the Dr. Weston I've said consistently were, and this is a Westian formulation, I can't take credit for this because he's in the room where he not Steve, I would tell you this is a tabus original, I'd be lying, but since he's here, I can't take credit for this, but this is a Westian formulation where Obama is concerned, we must respect the president, we must protect the president, we must also correct the president. We always respect the president, and when he needs to be protected against vicious, vulgar, vitriolic, racist, white supremacist, tea party, Donald Trump attacks, we will protect the president, he must always be

respected, protected, but also corrected. This president is not Jesus, he doesn't walk on water, he makes mistakes, in many ways he's afraid to address African -American issues to your point directly because he's afraid of being accused of being tribal, and so he gives a standard response that I'm the president of all of America, and never gets around to really addressing the problems that are acutely impacting African -Americans, although when Gays and Lesbians jump up and down a bike, don't ask, don't tell, and he should have done it sooner than he did, I'm glad he finally did it, but he responds to that particular constituency. And you're saying you're saying he very rarely speaks specifically to African -Americans, not rarely, never, it's not a question of rare, it's a question of never. So you have a real problem with this, I'm the president of all America, I mean he is obviously, but you're saying that he needs to do more than that, I mean he needs to address specifically. But any president who says he's president of all America means on the ground that he responds to those who have most money, most resources, and most pressure. So when he goes his business round table and says, I am the president of all America, they know

exactly what he's talking about, namely he's going to speak to their interests before he speaks to poor people's interests because they have money, resources, and influence, and everybody knows that. So let's just get beyond the rhetoric in terms of this generic formulation of I am president of everyone. The thing I think is most upsetting about Barack Obama, and here I think it's a philosophical point about democracy, that we know that the great contributions of the United States to world civilization have to do with the various ways in which we affirm the dignity of everyday people. It could be Emerson, it could be Whitman, it could be Muriel Rekaiser, it could be Louis Armstrong, it could be Duke Ellington, it could be Gershwin, it could be Sonheim, it could be Frank Lloyd Wright, all of these had democratic sensibilities having to do with finding the genius in everyday people, the extraordinary and ordinary people. Well, black people have a tradition from Frederick Douglass to Martin King of a reconstruction of democracy. It's a matter of what does democracy look like in the tradition of black people struggling against

slavery, against Jim Crow, and now against Jim Crow, Jr. And when you look at that tradition, King is finally the major figure. And Barack Obama mobilized King's legacy and then channeled it in neo -liberal centrist democratic leadership council like ways, and that for me is a form of political blasphemy. Blasphemy. Let me move the discussion away from President Obama and ask a more general question about leadership. How much do intellectuals matter in the struggle for democracy? Intellectuals always matter because ideas matter. I mean, part of what we're dealing with now is the triumph of right -wing ideas put forward by intellectuals generated by think tanks and now gaining assets in the last 30 years. The university shaping the very narrow corporate media with truncated options and limited alternatives made available to American people and it's greed is good. You're saying sort of the conservative movement, the conservative revolution,

it was founded by conservative intellectuals. Oh, absolutely. Let me move all the discussion. We have William Buckley and the others pushing the free markets, unregulated markets, and unfettered markets. Well, you know, they won. They convinced Larry Summers. They convinced Bill Clinton. They convinced Robert Rubin as well as the disciples of Milton Friedman in four while. Most of the economists said, what, we're all Milton Friedmanians. Well, that's an intellectual battle. Now, after 2008, when the greed is good, model was shattered. Right. It became clear. They didn't really know what they told me. Oh my god, they came and run the system. These markers aren't self -sufficient at all. Generate fraud, indecent action, illegal action, criminal action and so forth. So that the battle over ideas is always very, very important. So I guess the question is why? I mean, why did the conservative intellectuals win or at least gain the ascendancy right now? What about the intellectuals on the left? Well, I mean, one, the liberals had marginalized the left in the

seventies, and the liberal model itself began to be not just interrogating, calling the question, but began was unable to deliver. And the American people are in this Yin Yang. If you don't go for the Democrats, then you got to go for the Republican. So the choices between, well, milk, toast, liberal is not working. And this means better Republican. There's got a lot of energy and conviction. And let's try it out. One more people opted for the right wing version. Now, that's been contested. And this is what we might decline. You know, what we witnessed in 2011 is the exhaustion, the relative exhaustion of milk toast, liberalism, mean spirit of conservatism. Where do we go? That's a deep question. That's very much what it does. And I wrestling with in terms of legacy of Martin King. And I think I think Steve, to build on Doc's point, if anybody can ever build on a brilliant point made by talk to West, the democracy is in trouble. So long as we think that we can live in a country where 1 % of the people own and control more wealth, the 90 % of the people, my read of history. And I'm so glad you're doing this wonderful series on democracy because

my read of history suggests to me that there is no empire back to Doc's framework about empire. There is no empire in the history of the world that at some point did not falter or fail every empire at some point fails. And I don't know if it is our arrogance, our hubris, our patriotism that has now morphed into nationalism. I don't know what it is that doesn't allow us to even consider that like every other empire at some point, we could fail as well. This could be the beginning of the end. Now, as you well know to say that, and I'm sure you'll get mail about this when this airs, to say that gets one labeled anti -American. So you got to be careful when we're at how you say that even on public radio. But at the end of the day, every empire has eventually failed. And I believe that this country one day is going to implode or put another way, get crushed under the weight of its own poverty. If we don't figure out a way to eradicate poverty, poverty, I believe one day is ultimately going to

eradicate us. So explain what you mean. Well, how would poverty eradicate us? Probably will eradicate us in that you can't have this gap continue to grow between the have gots and the have nots. It can't happen. Dr. West mentioned earlier at the end of Dr. King's life, King was trying to raise this very point. There is no again, no empire, no country in the world. What we just saw recently in Egypt and in Tunisia and and and still now ongoing in Libya, when you see these uprisings around the world, it happens because the poor at some point get restless. Those who are economically and politically and socially and culturally disenfranchised, eventually get to a point is I like to say when they become like Popeye, the cartoon character, I don't stood all I can stands and I can't stand no more. And then with Popeye outcomes, the can of spinach. Well, the proverbial or the metaphorical can of spinach are the protest. People taking and y 'all know something about that here in Wisconsin. You know something about that. But at some point

people get restless. People get tired. It was Vanny Lou Hamer who said I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. At some point people start to feel that and that's when that energy gets channeled into a certain way. And if you don't address poverty, you don't talk about eradicating poverty, poverty may end up eradicating your empire. Because at some point, it bubbles up to a point where people can't take it anymore. If that makes sense. Sure. Yeah. We're running short of time here. A wrap up question. You said earlier, the question that you two talk about. Okay. What's to be done? Huge question, obviously. But for starters, where do you go? Well, one is you've got to be like the San Cofa bird and look back at and be in contact with the best of the past in order to move forward. That's why the Whitmans and the Emerson's and that's why the Martin Kings and Vanny Lou Hamers and that's why the Sondheims make a difference. We're talking about art. We're talking about politics. Young people need to be informed by and inspired by the best of the tradition that those who came before. And what did they do? They thought boldly. What did they do? They

acted courageously and compassionately. And what did they do? They were willing to live and die for something bigger than themselves. Those are all three preconditions for any revitalization of any democracy. And if you don't have either one of them, you're going to lose your democracy and end up with a crypto fascist regime. And those folks who struggled in the past, they cry from their graves. My answer simply and quickly is, and I know this may be a pipe dream Steve, but we have to have more people who are willing to tell the truth. It's that simple for me. People who are willing to tell the truth put another way. People who are willing. I don't mean just now media people. I mean Americans of every race, color, creed, of every political ideology, of every faith tradition. We have to have more Americans who are willing to tell the truth about the suffering of everyday people. More Americans who are willing to accept the responsibility to simply say what they see. It is impossible to look around these days in this country and to

not see the fragility of our democracy. And if we just find the courage, the conviction, the commitment, the character to just tell the truth about what we see, to just say what it is that we see, that at least gets the conversation going. And I trust the American people enough, and I believe in the American people enough, that if the facts are put on the table, if someone commits himself or herself or a network or a newspaper, not to cover the horse race, not to cast in the story of framerate in terms of winners and losers, but to simply tell the truth, tell the American people the truth and we can figure this out. But this gain of winning versus losing, that's what's going to kill us. Cornell West and Tava Smiley are the hosts of Public Radio's weekly talk programs Smiley and West. Steve Paulson spoke with them. Chief Killer Ficky face Bayer said

today face in a freighter major street grace at the table straight flow greatest like the greatest lakes gates on greatest states quiet water major waves state of course make a way and come ashore on the greater day homegrown from the greatest grain full flavor in the native string. Now put that on your brainy brain full exposure to faith and slang minimum wage and major gangs. Y 'all seen darn Taita Bay day to night and day to day they came to play we came to stay get out the way B .I .C Suns fly heat rocks broke land finest preservation the bee box friend of folk poison the detox when we rock the people are respond priority peace before anything God before everything love before anything real before everything home before any place shoot before anything style and stay ready yet love power slither hate priority you'll find an extended version of their interview on our website at ttbook .org now

featuring 20 years of interviews available to stream download and share coming up a candidate interview with WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange for to the best of our knowledge I'm Jim Fleming this hour demanding democracy is part of our special series democracy a short history of a big idea brought to you by Wisconsin public radio and PRI public radio international support for to the best of our knowledge comes from the University of Wisconsin online bachelor of science and

sustainable management developing leaders with the critical skills to grow a green economy information is at sustain dot Wisconsin dot edu vice president Joe Biden's called him a high tech terrorist secretary of state Hillary Clinton says his work tears at the fabric of responsible governments is supporters include the hacker group anonymous which brought down the websites of visa master card and PayPal in his name we're talking about Julian Assange the founder of WikiLeaks and one of the most controversial figures of our time whether you agree with him or not Assange's work grows out of a strong commitment to using information technology to foster democracy and strength champs reached Assange in England where he's under house arrest he spoke with her outdoors from a cell phone on a windy day there's a phrase you've used a number of times you see censorship as opportunity in what way is censorship an opportunity

well censorship requires work it is investment for government and other organizations the center material that is already going out to the public or to try and eventually getting out to the public in the first place and people don't tend to expend money without court so censorship is a signal that an organization or a government is fearful about their reform a fix of an information release so it's a kind of marker like a sign of disease exactly it's a well i would say in a way it's you can say on one hand it's a marker of disease that is as things that the government is trying to cover up on the other hand it's a marker of the health of a political system in that the government is afraid of what people think we should be careful about saying that the situation of relatively low lack of a relative lack of traditional legal censorship

is as a result of governments having nothing to conceal rather in my experience which is a result of the strongest patronage systems within the country nothing to get what the public thinks in these more western countries the basic relationships between powerful groups is fiscal so it's done in shareholding or contracts between individuals and companies or bank holdings or multi -layered fiscal instruments and when there's a change in political mood in a country as a result of exposure it doesn't change the figures on a contract it doesn't change the contents of the bank and so people in power have little to fear by press exposure i'm curious what about democracy in america i mean is there is there information out there that if made public would have the potential to transform the balance of power in this country i think it's

it's quite difficult i wondered what that information would be and look like when we released we're still in the process of releasing cablegate but when we entered into the cablegate publication phase we saw a reaction by washington and its friends that was cartoonish that was had to sort of produce it from McCarthyist server for around two months with very startling and unusual but reminded everyone of what was happening under the Soviet and so that's an example where information at that level and at such quantity they can produce together in the form of X and produce that reaction i'd like people in power what other sort of information would be like that given the extraordinary fiscalization in the united states perhaps all emails within your time going back ten

years maybe that would produce similar understanding of the interplays between the big power and patient groups in the US perhaps saying to the finance industry although within finance matters tend to be quite complicated maybe all the emails of the US congress if you had them all going back a few years perhaps that would produce similar level of reaction but i think it because of the strong fiscalization which results in a deep politicization of the basic power structure in the country it is going to take something at that level of course the national security agency intercepts estimates and telephone traffic coming in and out of the united states a number have suggested domestically in places in the united states as well if that material was released we might see a desire to reform the intelligence sector so is that your your wish list in a sense why do i have a long wish list i think the forty united states that wouldn't be a bad

stop julie nassange is the founder of wiki leaks and strange champ spoke with him while he was under house arrest in england the only way he could do the interview was by cell phone outside on a windy day you can hear the extended version on our website at ttbook .org now featuring 20 years of interviews available to stream download and share you're listening to the unofficial anthem of the arab spring by hamada bin amor the tunesian rapper known as el henara the song is called raid leblet translated the lyrics begin mr. president your people are dying people are eating rubbish look at what has happened miseries everywhere mr. president i talk with no fear el henara was detained shortly after the song was released eight days later tunesian president ben Ali fled his country after 23 years

of authoritarian rule for the best of our knowledge i'm jim flaming this hour demanding democracy is part of our special series democracy a short history of a big idea brought to you by wisconsin public radio and pr i public radio international the leaders of the civil rights movement not only demanded equal rights for black america they expected it one of those leaders was named bayard rustin historian john demillo is the

author of the book called lost profit the life and times of bayard rustin demillo says rustin was a pivotal figure in the civil rights movement but he's been virtually erased by history he's incredibly important in terms of the movements for peace and social justice in post -World War II america more than anybody else he's the one who brings gondi and gondi and ideas to the black civil rights struggle things that we normally associate with martin luther king he mentors martin luther king but yet whereas martin luther king is a name that every person alive in the united states knows no one knows who bayard rustin is except hardcore pacifists and aficionados of the civil rights movement and the reason for that is that rustin had to figure out how to be an agitator for justice and work effectively without people noticing him because he was a gay man living in an era when the constraints on that were so intense

our power is in our ability to make things unworkable the only weapon we have is our bodies and we need to tuck them in places so wheels don't turn rustin grew up in southeastern pennsylvania in really quaker country and his grandmother who was the key person in his life had worked in quaker households and so quakerism was part of his environment and by the time he was in his mid -20s he actually began going to quaker meetings very regularly it's suffused the way he looked at the world there is a personal pacifism as well as a political pacifism that shaped his outlook

and when world war two came along you know most other americans thought of it as a war that was eminently justified and bayard rustin chose to go to jail rather than in any way cooperate with the military i'm a quaker and as everyone knows quakers for 300 years have on conscientious grounds been against participating in rule rustin often said that king was one of the most impressive figures he had ever met that king had a power that bayard had really encountered in another human at the same time it was a charismatic power that lacked the skills of community organizing of knowing how to build a movement how to create an organization how to have a strategy of change as opposed to simply saying march people and rustin was the one who taught him

about strategy and about organization and about movement building and who acted as his point man in doing those sorts of things and that's what rustin brought to king when rustin was in his mid -40s and king was still a very young minister in his mid -20s there are three ways to deal with injustice one is to accept it so they wishly or one can be listed with arms or one can use non -violence the man who believes in non -violence is prepared to be harmed to be crushed but he will never crush others for a number of years king just turned to rustin he would say write me this article and i'll sign it or yes i'll meet with these people who can fundraise or yes this yes that yes the other thing and for years he didn't make an important decision without consulting rustin and rustin made himself available but rustin always used to say

that while king was very good at confronting quote the enemy the segregationist he was not very good at confronting turmoil within the ranks of the civil rights movement so that when controversy would surround rustin when people would bring up at times his either radical background or his gainess Martin Luther King would cave and there was this one critical moment in 1960 where Adam Clayton Powell who was a congressman from Harlem the most prominent African -American in national politics in the democratic party was getting a little teed off really at rustin's effort to exert influence and especially in relationship to the democratic party and Powell let's king know that if he doesn't get rid of rustin as his assistant Powell is going to start spreading rumors that king and rustin are sexually involved well king caved in and here they have this really close relationship for like five years and then barely spoke to each other for another

two years or two and a half years can walk it for me i got a walk it for myself stromthurman who was you know he had run as a segregationist for president in 1948 in 1963 he is prepared to do anything to discredit the civil rights movement and the march on Washington was the big upcoming event he tried to discredit it by saying oh it's a bunch of communists who were doing it and people yawned and he then moved on to isolating rustin who at that point was known as the really mr march on washington and he gets up on the senate floor and reads into the congressional record rustin's arrest record reads from newspaper clippings in the Los Angeles papers from the 1950s about rustin

getting arrested the senate is not interested in me if i were a murderer a thief a liar or a perfect the senator is interested in attacking me because he is interested in destroying the movement he will not get away with this we're marching on to freedom land we're marching on to freedom land it becomes actually a turning point in rustin's public career because the march was only maybe two weeks away at that point and it was too big an event and so the civil rights establishment has to for the first time publicly defend rustin because the alternative is to cave into stromptherment arch enemy of the community and the movement and so it's the point of which the gay card is finally trumped in rustin's life it's now so public and the movement has said we don't care

i now bring to you the executive director of the march on washington the man who organizes this whole thing mr. biode rustin raise hand gentlemen the first demand is that we have effective civil rights legislation no compromise no filibuster and that it includes public accommodation decent housing integrated education FAPC and the rights to vote what do you say the thing to me that's so amazing about his life is that he comes from nowhere you know he's the illegitimate son of a teenage mother in a small provincial town right and he travels the globe he organizes demonstrations on four continents he moves among people who really

do make history rustin is not a tragic figure he rises from the ashes again and again and especially if you look at pictures of him late in life this guy was having a lot of fun i mean he had a good life what is tragic for us as a nation really or as a people is that the talents of this man could not be fully utilized in the way that they could have the biggest impact on history the tragedy is the homophobia and the racism but rustin you have to say i mean the guy never gave up oh give it a little time to pray

john demilla was the author of the book called lost profit the life and times have bired rustin rustin remained committed to racial equality and world peace until his death in 1987 we let it reach from every village and every highlights from every state and every we will be able to speed up that day when all of us doing black men and twice men tools and ten clouds, customs and Catholics we'll be able to join hands and sing in the west of the only road we have left, we have left, we have left, we have left Kelly Carender is a Seattle area blogger considered by many to be the very first tea party activist she's a young math teacher with enough body piercings to look more like an obama supporter than a right -wing activist but in

2009 she organized one of the first protests against the democratic stimulus package today she writes a popular blog under the name liberty bell she tells Steve Paulson what those first protests were like i mean they were amazing because there's so many of us across the nation that just never spoke out never protested sort of thought that our civic duty revolved around elections rather than in between elections keeping politicians accountable and trying to influence policy and so these first few protests were these amazing moments of finding like -minded people especially if you're in a place like i am that is very not known for it's not very known for its conservative leanings you're in Seattle right and Seattle is a very very liberal town so finding other people who are like -minded was this great moment and knowing that you're not alone and that there are other people who do you think like

you so that was fantastic so that's how they used to be and i would say they've changed a lot because people no longer feel completely out of the loop i mean believe me we still feel like there are so many things that are still wrong and there's there's so many politicians on the left and the right that have no regard for the citizenry but we do feel like we've got a toe a little foot in the door is this all just about economics is this about trying to limit government spending yeah so i affiliate with tea party patriots there's a few different umbrella groups the one i affiliate with and workforce tea party patriots and we have three guiding principles fiscal responsibility constitutionally limited government and free markets so very much is an economic movement so a lot of the traditional causes that republicans rally around especially the social issues like protesting the right to an abortion or gay

marriage those are not important issues to you no because first of all there's so many other groups that deal with social issues on either side of the of the issue they're very well established they're well -funded so we we basically say look if you want to get involved in something like abortion there's tons of groups out there on either side that you can get involved with there wasn't really a movement though or a group that really dealt with these economic issues from our point of view and those issues are so divisive that you know at a tea any given tea party meeting you'll have two people sitting next to each other that you know one is very pro choice and one is very pro life and then you'll have two people working together on a tea party protest who wants to support gay marriage and one who is vehemently against it so these issues these economic issues unite people in such a phenomenal way that and like I said there's other groups that deal with those other issues you can't be everything to everyone you know you have to stay focused if we really want to affect policy and legislation

on these economic issues then we have to be focused on them so let's just to play this out for a little bit you're saying there's way too much government intervention in our lives too much money is being spent by the government to very specifically what should the government not be spending money on that it is now lots of stuff well let's take a look at some of the various departments there's you know the Department of Agriculture I remember I was in DC about a year ago and I was driving by I was in a cab and I was driving by all of these buildings building after building after building after building with rows of cubicles and floors of cubicles and I just thought what do all those people do one of them was the Department of Agriculture I think we need to be very judicious in these departments Department of Education like what does the Department of Education do I understand that that you know we spend money and education but it doesn't you know I'm not against public education but what does the Department of Education actually do

so I would first you know I would want to take a look at the the various departments commissions agencies boards I know the GAO put out a study there's over 200 billion dollars of redundancies across these various boards and commissions and agencies and things like that so that sort of thing I'd like to stop spending money on well just to take this as an example presumably the US Education Department studies educational policy it studies of what makes for effective teaching and ineffective teaching it works on standardized tests it's I mean the mission is to try to have some overall standards for for what makes good schooling around the country you're saying those are not important issues well I'm saying that those issues could also partially be done at the state level it's not the federal government's job to run education and different states need different things

I also think you look at the size of the Department of Education if you're really just going to have a little one little commission that sort of studies what's effective education what's not and that sort of thing I don't think you need an entire department so maybe we don't get rid of the Department of Education maybe we scale it down to the size that it really should be which would save us a lot of money in the same thing for the Department of Agriculture you know and these various these various departments that maybe we need a very small agency that that studies some things it just seems you know our our regulatory agencies are huge because they have to be to keep up with all of these onerous rules and regulations I would also go very far in saying that one of the projects we're working on right now is the health care compact and that is an effort to completely remove health care from the federal government and bring it back to the states the federal government would still be spending money but it would basically be completely block granted to the states with no strings attached a lot of people when they talk about block grants

they're still strings attached we're talking about completely free to spend the money on health care the way that the state wants to so Vermont for instance could become a single pair state if they wanted to and a state like Texas could try out free market reforms so when whenever possible you would like to bring the control of all kinds of governmental decisions to the state level take it out of federal hands yeah and the reason is because you know for me it takes me a little just over an hour to get to my state capital there and back is less than a tank of gas for me I can visit my legislators I can go to the governor's office you know I can go to hearings I can actually testify to hearing on a piece of legislation for me in Seattle to get to DC say to testify which I'm sure it wouldn't even be able to testify you know it would be a day there a day back in travel hundreds of dollars my US representatives represent way more you know hundreds of thousands of more people than my state rep represents so I have a bigger voice we all have a much

bigger voice the smaller the closer the decision making gets to the people so what we want is is to look at every single policy choice and ask the question who decides who should decide that question if it's education or health care you know or agriculture or environmental or whatever it is at what level should that decision be made and I think in every case where it's possible bring it as close to the people as possible again how much easier is it for us to go to a school board meeting and have an effect on the school policy there then it is to go to DC and try to talk to somebody at Department of Education who's probably not going to care who you are at all and and make sure that most of the decisions that are being made are being made by elected people so that we can hold them accountable because the bigger government gets especially at the federal level the more the decisions are made by bureaucrats that have no accountability to the people at all so closer to the people and made by folks who are elected rather than appointed or hired

no there have been a lot of political movements over the course of history in America and a number of them burn out after a few years maybe after sort of the initial sort of popular outrage has has worn off what's your sense of the future of the tea party well I'm an optimist first of all but second you know it's I've heard a lot of people say well I haven't seen that many people at protest lately I'm worried what's going on and I travel to country a lot and I meet with local groups a lot you're not seeing a lot of the tea party out in the streets because they're working they're going to these meetings some of them are running for for local offices they as at least have a monthly group meeting if not weekly they're really involved in their local communities so there obviously is always a chance that people are going to burn out and I do think that after the election people put so much into building up to the election that there are some people I know that have said

look I'm going to take the next few months off then I'll get back involved maybe you know summertime 2011 so there are some people that you know you do get burnt out it's it's basically a volunteer -based movement so you really run the risk of burnout with volunteers but I've never met so many people that are so committed to an ideal and I think it's beautiful it's a beautiful thing to see people turn away from being committed to a person or a politician because I think on both sides of the aisle we've had that for way too long and then we because we're committed to that person or that politician we look the other way when they make mistakes and when they do not keep their promises or when they're corrupt and I think to be committed rather than than to a person to an ideal you can hold those people accountable and you have it's just it's such a bigger view than a person

so I think because of that we have a very good chance of sustaining for quite a long time. Do you think the Republican Party has more or less taken on Tea Party values or do you still see a disjunction between the Republican establishment and the Tea Party movement? I think there is still a gap between not only the Republican establishment and I was going to sound but the Democratic establishment too I mean obviously the Democrats have a big problem with the Tea Party ideals but what I'm trying to say is I think there is this establishment of people in both parties who don't want to rock the boat you know Nancy Pelosi said something about how she wished elections didn't matter so much meaning what she was saying was she wished that the two parties could be closer again instead of Republicans being off you know being pulled off into this Tea Party path that if they were just closer together it would be easier to govern and you know and so I think there's actually a lot of Republicans at the top that think like that as well it's scary to take a stand for something and and

have the press come after you and you know you have to know your stuff you have to be able to defend your beliefs and defend them rationally and so I definitely there's definitely still a gap a lot of us are starting to feel like you know this isn't a Democrat versus Republican fight anymore we feel like the people versus a ruling elite think that they know better than us and some of them are Democrats some of them are Republicans but they think they know how to run our lives better than we do and that's what we're fighting against Kelly Carender is a Seattle area blogger considered by many to be the very first Tea Party activist Steve Paulson spoke with her it's to the best of our knowledge I'm Jim Fleming this hour is called Demanding Democracy it's part of our special series Democracy a short history of a big idea brought to you by Wisconsin Public Radio our series was produced by Charles Monroe Kane with the help of Veronica Rickert and Strain Champs and Doug Gordon our executive producer is Steve Paulson

our technical director is Carrillo and Steve Mullin that walk west productions wrote the theme music for more information about anything you heard in this hour visit our website at ttbook .org now featuring 20 years of interviews available to stream download and share and the last word goes to Chilean writer Isabella Yende on September 11th 1973 her uncle Salvador Yende the president elect of Chile was assassinated 13 years later another September 11th changed the world again which she calls terrible irony is one of those karmic coincidences in both cases it was a terrorist attack in both cases it was an at Tuesday September 11th almost at the same time of the day and one of them was sponsored by the United States the other one happened in the United States it is a chilling coincidence I think and in my case in the

first September 11th I lost a country on the second September 11th I think I gained a country because for the first time I felt that I belonged in the United States I could relate to what people in the streets were feeling that feeling of fear of safety of vulnerability the feeling that we can't control what's going on how do you feel about American democracy now I used to be very proud of it not anymore it disturbs me because I see signs that I have seen before I see the slow chipping of the individual rights the right to dissent the right to oppose to whatever the government is doing and that bothers me a lot I think that's the beginning of something very serious