An hour with Donald Rumsfeld

from the us army command and general staff college at fort leavenworth k pr presents an hour with former secretary of defense donald rumsfeld i'm kate mcintyre rumsfeld served as our nation's thirteen and twenty first secretaries of defense making him both the youngest and the oldest person to serve in the position he served in congress representing illinois from nineteen sixty two to nineteen sixty nine he also served as the us ambassador to nato during the nixon administration and white house chief of staff during the ford administration he started his military career at princeton university where he attended on a naval aren't easy scholarship and went on to win the all maybe wrestling champion said rumsfeld spoke at fort leavenworth on february twenty fourth two thousand twelve as part of a book tour from owning his memoir known and unknown my goodness i understand we've got folks from the army navy the air

force the marines and a number of foreign countries and people across the interagency and state department intelligence agencies are going to be here and i'm at my for years writing into more and i decided i'd begun doing it rapidly in the year and decided it had such an incredible archive that i would take for years and digitize a large fraction of an unknown provide a book that is rooted in primary source documents so i not only wrote the book but we have a website rumsfeld dot com where we have some four thousand plus documents that people can look at an endnote an antsy a paragraph from a memo that was written you know five ten twenty forty fifty sixty years ago and then go and it's right and linda has a third of our country's history and you multiply seventy nine

years old tanzania negation right back and subtracted from twenty twelve a picture right back to the beginning of our country shows where young country we permit people when world war two and truman was president and that was the end of the war and the beginning of the cold war it was an inflection point for the for our country and for our friends and allies in europe and for much of the world it was during that period that they know enormous fraction of all of the institutions that we do with today in the united states and internationally or fashion if you think about it and around the world that's when the united nations was created the north atlantic treaty organization the

international monetary fund in the world bank and any number of of these i think the oas probably was in that period well at home they created a new set of institutions one of which was the department of defense and tried to recognize the how dysfunctional it was to have the army think it could belong in a war in the navy could go out and win a war and we are forced to go out and win a war rather than having the enormous leverage this is achieved by having a single apartment and instead of separate for us that's when the national security council was created and that's when the central intelligence agency and i think that's when the us a it and possibly us side at us information agency ms lee no one mentioned that one mentioned because we're now in a fifty sixty sixty two years later

and the institutions something in some cases they've been refashion your adjusted or calibrate it to try to fit the the twenty first century but in a real sense we get another inflection point at the end of the call and the beginning of the twenty four centuries and the the movement from the industrial age into the information age and yet we have not really fashion new institutions to set the new circumstance that our country and our world faces we know there've been some changes made us that expanded substantially when i was us ambassador there we had fifteen countries fourteen of which in a military alliance and france was in the political winds but not the military alliance says de gaulle had pulled them out today i don't know what it was twenty five twenty six countries in nato most posen and

that's a good thing nato was designed to deal with a nato treaty or the problems today are potential military problems and political problems are not within the nato treaty area so much as they are outside the treaty or an end the nato has not figured out a way to deal with the inefficient way to deal with other like thinking countries if you think the problems are going to be dealing with all the things like proliferation of weapons of mass destruction piracy and again any number of things that are you require cooperation among countries but but they've not thought through how they can interact with australia new zealand or singapore japan or south korea or india any number of countries in the world that that have similar free political and for economic institutions the united nations has grown dramatically but it it has demonstrated over northern it's not really very good at dealing with problems that are about syria's major

discussions and that's a useful thing none of those institutions really have moved into the twenty first century here at home the department of defense's but the one institution that made a major change to go water nichols legislation and that was an important thing that i'm not not simply giving the military services of the united states in the same apartment but in fact assigning the responsibility for the services to organize training and then have the combatant commands be thoroughly enjoyed an able to manage the fears of all services in a given theater or area of responsibility that that was indeed a big step in a positive step but if you if you think about it from the standpoint to present these disparate threads come up and they need to come through a

needle hit in some way in some rational coherent way and yet they don't often i mean the department of state has its own institutional interests and the department of defense has its intelligence community is is somewhat separate the each of those have different committees and the congress that could provide the oversight and the funding for them and and so you find things that it rather than coming up those threads to the needle in a coherent way years ride some time and that's why having people from the enraged different partisan agencies participate in an educational opportunities and undone service with other departments and agencies such an enormously important thing in iowa i respect and appreciate the value that comes out of your having people from the other departments and agencies that you can work with study with get to know and those relationships continue on down the line but

but we have basically not rearrange the united states of america's government or congress the executive or legislative branch to fit the information act were still oh no five and in much of the government's five days a week and eight hours a day i am and if you think of the problems we're facing as a country anywhere not condone or not and when they a struggle against islam as violent extremists are people that are not defending nations operation that works in the shadows were not to prevail against that with bullets that their help but we're simply have to engage in a competition of ideas over time and it's going to take all elements of national power not simply that apartment rents and much of the rest of our government this is engaged to

a only a modest extent whereas the department of defense of course thanks to your service in and the many deployments that are represented in this war wrong you you have contributed enormously to the defense of our country and then and the reality that that i think to most people's amazement week for more than a decade without another major attack in this country and that didn't just happen it's happening in large measure because of the service and the deployments that that the folks in this room have engaged him and the pressure thats been put on terrace and and their funding network and the coalitions that have been established with some ninety countries sharing intelligence and sharing information about bank accounts making life difficult for them for people who are planning to to engage in terrorist acts making harder for them to move around from country to country harder to make phone calls harder to raise money harder

to recruit look we know we don't have good metrics on that we be and we know that we don't know whether they're recruiting and funding more rapidly than those that are being captured or killed or die or dissuaded from participating in the end and the kinds of terrorist attacks so what i'm suggesting here and if you if you do look at that memorandum that i sent the president i think you'll see that i don't know the answer to i know the questions i think pose a lot of questions in the air but it does seem to me that that it was so so important what was done at the end of world war two professionals international institutions and fashion the institutions here in the united states that would carry us through that long period of fifty sixty years but we all know the changes that have taken place and end it is unrealistic to think that those institutions akbar are still appropriate for the period going forward

and end it you're in school you're thinking about things like that talking about things like that you have people from other agencies in other countries and i think that you might find that ford's interesting image you go back to your leadership positions in our country in the department in the other departments and agencies in and around the world you might want to give some thought with that i'll stop and respond to what i think of as a little greedy don't you want a view that honor for lucy's signal to relations office what advice would you give a future sector depends on working with the chairmen of georgia is that the combined teams well liane

if you put yours if you step back it's always useful put yourself about the other guy's shoes and say what's it look like there for the other person as the first should you want to put yourself in their shoes as the shoes of the president i think is what does that individual need from the department of defense from the senior civilians and senior military leadership and what particularly does he need when there is a crisis and then when i was secretary for gerald ford i made a point of taking the chairman of the chiefs and the service chiefs with me to meetings with president ford because he needed to know that you needed to developing confidence level in what they were going out and nobody's good at everything so you need a little sense of what they may not be the best to have an end in a crisis that one of them is going to be in town and one of them that i have the responsibility for advising the president on what to do about some

serious international from anna n unless you have that relationship unless you put the president physically repeatedly together with the senior military you do are i think doing it gets so what are the only advice i would give is it's it's he is not helped it's perfectly helpful for presidents to hear different views itself but it's not happy healthy to have the senior military and the senior civilian leadership of the department out of la and i write i spent more time with general dick myers and then with the general peter pace as secretary of defense for the last six years when i was there and i live with my wife and an investment of time and the same thing's true with a combatant commander it is simply have got to do that got to be willing to spend time with those commands so that you you know helping talking know i think you have a sense of

what their strengths and weaknesses might be they have a sense of what your strengths and weaknesses might be and that's that's a good thing so i guess that's about the only advice i think i'll preface it by saying that i am so so take whatever i suggest with a grain of salt i serve major problems that grew twenty three delegates are it's an honor to speak with you for several years now i've had a theory just don't give me any cure for our questions when the surge began and the real work needed to happen this large ones that mean for one the surgeon director of the surge is that search oh ok when the

world were needed to happen the one thing that was not in the news was a search what was in them at what was in the news was a fight over president's policy on illegal immigration was a part of the white house strategy to introduce the contribution controversial issue in order to allow initial gaze and search without disruption by the press no the pay fors i was in the white house but i miss indian rumsfeld rules there's one bite of filming where e silverman and it's pizza that goes something like this evolution of the company here that people other governments looking at the behavior of

another government tend to imagine conspiracy and cleverness well generally it is for two of the band incompetence get close to it and you're like larry summers said it better but there is that tendency for people to look the government's him and think well i wonder why they said that what do they really mean and the reality is it's seldom that way in this case i guess and i wasn't there but i'm absolutely certain that is not the case a survey to west we were all repeating bravo served for nineteen seventy to leave you've worked with just about every president since a life and eve is there or is there you said it was a setup two presidential exploratory

committees to seek the office yourself so from the insights are what characteristics do you look for any president is that well you know every president that i worked with was very different from the others and the circumstances that each president that i worked with faced were notably different as well each one of them came into office with some real strengths and some short tunes and they no one has three hundred sixty degrees no one's done everything no one goes into their office having punched all the ticket someone who may go in with a very clear understanding of how congress works some way going there haven't served as vice president m and have a pretty good sense of how the executive branch and the white house works but the

thing that amazed me it's everything i've ever done i had a feeling for example why well intended to nominate you want to work on the hill capitol hill eisenhower was president and then i was elected to congress served there and i looked at the executive branch and i'd studied government that in college and worked in the house are reasons i was remember cause i was in the government operations committee which looked at all of the government and i had it in my mind that i had a pretty darn good sense by my third or fourth term as to how the executive branch operate then i got here and i realized i really didn't and then anywhere near a good as clear an understanding of how the executive branch actually work and then i'll overseas as ambassador and sable the united states and it's a totally different view that i left government when gerald ford

was defeated and i thought i understood this is what i got into the business community and was pretty clear if i didn't understand it intellectually want one dimensionally but i didn't understand the private sector multinational and in understanding passionately where were you can really see what government bureaucracy can do harm and it's sent out what the late to do so i guess what i'm saying is you do have to recognize when you look at people running for president that now moment of the perfect moment we'll have done all the things in the world that it would be nice for president to have an understanding of i worked with gerald ford who had never been an executive a legislative his entire career down the navy lieutenant commander served in the world war two ran for congress and had been in congress his entire working for and this is the difference between being a legislator and an executive and it took him months to it became apparent that executives

but it it takes time so what you look for you know our society even when the pentagon you don't lead by coming in thank you know simply sit there and say do this do that first of all young smart because anything that big of delegating jobs at this point and that means there's multiple leadership centers throughout in a large institution imagine what it is for the present i think that leads to my mind is is you know if you leave not by commandos president and people look at the presidency and i think of all the power of the principal always god has the bully pulpit power recommending power of advise and leaving and rec suggesting planning a standard way out there a first for tea jig direction but a muddled forest trust you have to do it for you cannot persuade people if you don't believe if they dont believe you unless there's trust unless there's a feeling that the

individual providing that guidance and direction is it stressful and reliable an intelligent enough that what he he knows what he's saying he knows what the meaning is and when it goes into other people's hearing aids and receiving sets that that they're going to get and they don't believe you i have an uncle who's long beard that you he was a professor of speech and and talk persuasion uses a persuasion it's a two edge sword reason and emotion plenty and if you think about that a motion picture of all but it doesn't sustain reasons the stage and a president has to be seen as able to provided that strategic directions are very very hard that answers your question major but patients really didn't give any guidance for the current election

that's what it'll be from one years and center says one simple question for you what if it's simple ok how do you how do you see that we develop strategic thinkers in the army or you got me i was a navy pilot in flight instructor it's you know it's like anything else in life the more you do it the better you get and the more you talk about work with others and the more you see people who know how to do that the greater the likelihood is that you're going to develop that and in my book i have a section on strategy and and the fact that some people seem to start with the problem and then come up with an answer for

without really first carefully identifying what the problem is and and then trying to understand what the environment is the circumstances were the assumptions that that are going to be important what assumptions orchard in may that would be important in dealing with that problem and then analyzing some courses of action that might move you from where you are torch the dollar priority didn't have to deal with that problem i'll let you do that and an and think of it that way strategically when when inevitably the eighties circumstances change the ground and ship the enemy has a violent they do different things then they see what you do and do something here up so much of the assumptions laid out when the ground does change you will know how you order would just your plan are you want to celebrate which are due

but there's a there are a lot of things and rumsfeld rules which is also on the website that that talk about this problem and down this is margaret o'mara said something to the effect that he gave me the first part of what i just described write that that actually implementing it becomes much easier eisenhower i think said something to the effect if you can't solve a problem in large which is i think a useful thought if they're not in any given just can't figure out how you do that then if you enlarge and and put it into the context of something they do then you have a better chance of understanding you may not sell but you certainly can shimon peres said to me one night in a chinese restaurant told me when

he was defense minister back in the seventies he said he said you know if a problem has no solution it's not a problem but in fact not to be solved but to be caught with overtime and then there is some wisdom in there ronald reagan when he was asked what his strategy was for the cold war he had a look at the people in and said well how high my approach is that is this we win they lose so so there is a big advantage means that that is a strategic thought about you teach strategic thinking i think was the question that it is the first understand what what other people think strategy is an endowment and once you do that what he did want to do it out there and you plant that standard

and say that's where we're going you know people will go this way and that way and he kept them in the direction you walk towards the strategic goals that you've set the zen answer no it was a city i made it more complicated than the simple way you closed and i think that that's the best i can do well a little bit i think it was this really set me no history only biography its history without feeling and if you want to teach people to think strategically it seems to me you do you do look at biographies and i'm not just it's not necessarily autobiographies but biographer people lives that teaching history rather than the leading family history books which do give you history to be sure that they give it to you with the theory of the academic

hamburg wrote for that is people who wasn't there whereas the biographies talk about things that actually happen and i would think that that that might be a useful thing for people that maybe that i just have a terrible biased because i love biographies and i've been reading them all my life major virus section on twenty ago more if they come and i honestly he gave on the intrepid february of all three use afghanistan success that we saw then in afghanistan as a justification for going into iraq with other force that we went into it that same argument has actually before of the senate said that our nation's going to rock with large a force that was going good a half years later what we would you agree with your generals at that time who all say that we should've done it with a larger force than we did well first let me try to untangle a

series of many accuracies in iraq question and it'll take a moment to read because it was a mouthful the young the chief staff at the army's job was to organize train and equip he was not in that commander there is a mythology out there about generation set and it is largely inaccurate general franks was the combat commander he and his plans made the decisions as to the numbers of forces the types of forces and the uses to which they would be for he embraced the genes including patients it repeatedly in fact he got frustrated because he gets a later he went back and back and he briefed the president and the national security

council repeat josh and so he was in dozens of thing as with religious and the chairman of the town that question and the members of the national security council she said not once suggested that there be more true in any midi i was in her girlfriends notwithstanding what you remember us president on two occasions well the room and looked at everyone in the room including him and said you have everything you need to switch one and do you share this is all i know what you're going into new autonomy silence but also her fall he went up to the hill and they senators said the room just before the war began and where he said senator levin said or him and if you read my book in the law listen i would have been i would have to go through all this and untangle all

of that question that had so many inequities i'm so sure he knew that his job was organizing in training and equipping me know that frank says job was decide the number of forces in what he was going to work so levin said junior senator from the un mission said to mr ahamed forces agreement take in the post major combat portion in iraq and division sec he said well i'm probably about the same number that it would take two to prevail in major combat operations we read this in the actual words those clothes twenty seven an enlightened on a white wanted to tell saddam hussein how many troops are returnees before the war started he kept asking impressing him and since it like a military officer tried to respond in a way that was was and so

he repeated himself and eleven harmonies that if it's going to be but roughly the same afterwards after major combat operations how many guinea for major combat operations for an answer and hedy lamarr and waved and finally he said well you know maybe we need that he said two or three hundred thousand something like that and and that ended the exchange that within a week of the war started or at some point in there the washington post an article saying that general chen simply had had recommended that there be more troops and then general franks decided to use and i called him up on the phone and i said what's that song

can imagine what you want to say that i sent to rome with you watch and you never said that the president and then he's unbelievably me or the washington post along that is the sum total of it there was also a wonderful it must have been i think it's been somewhat three thousand times and in newspapers repeated over and over and over again that i refused to go to assert farewell so and and that's just not true says just utter nonsense i was a nato meeting in brussels he scheduled his farewell ceremony and and and hannah and i i did not refuse to go because i and then there've been hundreds of stories so you know i haven't because he spoke truth apollo polonius obama's entire time i guess maybe the message there is gonna be

careful when newspapers ut what else we are all illegal it was several years ago a long time ago good morning sir major me whole softer to bravo from the military and security standpoint we're as his military officers were following the developments and in countries like iran and syria my question is up for implications for our future what water two countries would you recommend that were not

buried in the news that we should follow the developments in or about as far as for implications for the future it's a very good question that people raise your hands if you know of another language besides not the people from foreign countries but there is you know a language other than english was about five percent of those assaults french island having language capabilities says is important and because we have this wonderful country and way of those two big oceans an awful lot of this particular people my generation just don't learn another language and i can gradually those that help i would suggest that those that haven't my mama's think about how you might do that sometimes it's useful

means i look at the world we we you know we know the damage that iran and syria working for the other due to us in afghanistan and iraq and they support they provide that the mischief in lebanon support they find a provider hezbollah and hamas scripture we think about that india is enormously important country indian indonesian not part of the world people talk about china a lot and then as though it's you know it's it is big and that it does have an economy that's growing in double digits and it's making investments but it's got some milk products without an enormous disparity of wealth between the coast in the interview portion of the country and it's got a lot of different ethnic groups it still has a lot of these large government corporations that some developed her terribly inefficient they're going to have to stop and they'll be undressed when

they do them they have difficulties with most of their neighbors with india with the ant man walking through washington dc the other day and the fruit of that peak because the vice premier of china they have just one baby policy the days as mindless does that mean that someone twenty five million males with no equal number of women in the country it is it's a mixed picture is it strikes but as i look at the world i think that i was asked this question what worries you the most when i was kid i left this innocent came down in two thousand and one for my confirmation hearing an asthmatic it was the senator from kansas roberts who asked the question what would you worry about when you go there

and you recently said north korea says any number of things and i said i worry about intelligence i worry about our knowing sufficiently what's happening in the world is it's a big place is complicated there are there are all kinds countries that are closed there are a number of places that other large and govern areas and neck and even after decades of watching the soviet union during the cold war we spoke there was still a great view we didn't know we missed estimated the intelligence committee in this estimate of the size of their economy in the eu level of effort they were engaged in on it i think yeah what we need to do is is look at a couple of big issues one issue is we have to do a better job with intelligence you love wonderful people working out but the idea that you can simply

create another bureaucracy the director of national intelligence on top of the director of central intelligence that it had an olive we have a problem and told us nine eleven people stand around and say don't just stand there do something so they create another level i don't know that that's gonna solve or pro myself i worry about are our intelligence capabilities that particular room when we have the budget problems we have an aunt people are running around saying we should cut the defense department by golly it's not just the defense department it's the intelligence it's the state department an end and all of those things have to work together and you've got to know the military capabilities with the diplomacy and when the information comes from the intelligent when we came in and and george w bush administration the last eight years that george herbert walker bush epidemic or they start appealing now and for eight

years the administration appealed went up with his bath of the factory the eaves pull away from your intelligence investment you await your defense investment and we get after world war two we get to the korean war the viet nam or bahrain do it again it's like shooting yourself in the forties and you could you could you could abolish the department of defense department state not begin to solve the debt problem well i want to watch on in america in the eisenhower administration that govern mating we are spending ten percent of gdp on defense and in him eisenhower kennedy johnson years just fine weekend doing the prom was and we're going to get trouble and then what happened when austin what three point six or four percent on defense people are talking of a crazy it about cutting the military assistance to egypt cutting military assistance to pakistan you're the speeches given congo's be the dumbest thing we could do for the military and

military relations between the united states and other countries is enormously so i would say if i had to answer your question it would be a country that that we are having work worrying about it is in my view the biggest risk is a not understanding that weakness is provocative that people don't doing things that are adverse to our country unless they think they have the ability to do that and to the extent the detroit this week to the extent the united states leads the world with the impression that it's going to go back in the world and not be there to contribute to peace and stability arm the world will be a less safe flights and it's partly diplomacy it's partly military capabilities it's also partly all the humanitarian assistance the united states provides it does our country so much good when the earthquake in pakistan the earthquakes

in central america says the army in japan's nine interview and an artful go over there and do a superb job and essayist and that helps to make it more peaceful world and helped contribute to a more stable world bp because people have a chance to see the capabilities of our country and to the extent people get up in the morning and conclude that that the united states is going to withdraw the less capable and do it at a time when our western european allies that that have in the past contributed significantly today if you take those twenty five twenty six countries in nato and take us out of it they're spending less less than three percent less than two percent something like one point eight or nine percent of gdp on defense in the us and those countries if your mom but some of the highest for turkey and greece and an editor to predict with that but

most of the rest were down below two percent now i think that is an issue that we needed to think about it i mean i do believe the problems in the middle east are not going to go away anne and the big importing countries they're obviously there are the kitchen and saudi arabia as thinkers and i think i'd rather leave leave it right there because i do think that if you got a single country and thinking that theres a potential problem is hard and probably not useful i think the real test we have as a people is to recognize that that we have an important role to play in the world no one else is going to do it for us there is not another

nation on the face of the earth it is ready and able to to contribute to persuading people from doing things that that harm other nations and the united nations doesn't fulfill what has made it always tends to be inward looking and and i think during your career that that thought is it important for you to do another question what is in court last question for donald rumsfeld is how to make the united nations and nato more responsive right question given the veto power of the nations that have veto power in the united issues that there is a solution for the united nations i think it will probably remain a discussion

form an ant have very limited ability to to deal with with problems of a serious nature of the arm they wanted things that is going to inhibit them particularly is this one of the chapters in my book asylum law fair and andy these things like universal jurisdiction and again to the extent that countries adopt that approach and think that they can have wrote prosecutors indicted people from other countries for things they've done that have nothing to do with your country and the united states is going to be a ceo i'm willing to provide humanitarian assistance around the world i'm willing to participate in united nations that one day i was in nato in brussels and at the legislature parliament in brussels have a piece of legislation that does that providing

free universal jurisdiction that is to say they're prosecutor could invite general finds because general franks was fulfilling his responsibilities as the combatant commander of the orders of the president with the role of the congress and going into afghanistan are going in order i called in the defense minister of brussels and i said look here's a real you like having nato in brussels if you want change that legislation you can be absolutely certain it won't be in brussels i mean what we what we would be able to station our military people where you knew it we had people up there and they don't we wouldn't be able to bring people in from a domain he was a diplomat i was not

they change within a matter of weeks with a repeal of the statute but it's it's the kind of thing that's happening that that the un for miles that is going to cause the united states to withdraw become isolationists and be unwilling to do things in countries that passed legislation like better coverage that that think they can indict a marriage we still have some people who'd been indicted and one european country who were involved in the passion of it was years and years ago and they can't travel there now there's a special prosecutor who said every time henry kissinger noted they're round they are still kind of fuss at him for something that when i'm in chile are back in the seventies and that that's going to be the case i mean each country's got to have sovereignty and it's not going to decide what is proper improper and you can have every other company in the world making judgments about that

and thinking they can indict people for even have the united states withdraws world they don't like the lady and mike you want to do is to recognize that if you look down i'm from outer space on earth and it if you go to my book you'll see that it's full of people known unknown i think they're doing using the korean peninsula the demilitarized zone satellite photo it might say people north and sell same resources just electricity everywhere the southern part of it is it's just bright green energy and activity perfectly black it the dmz separates a pinprick of light so if you look down from mars on earth and south korea now so i think

the fourth biggest domestic gross domestic product on the face of your little half of them and so why because the country political system and for economics my answer is that what you do is you look down trying to mention looking down on the earth and say which countries are like thinking you know they're not allow countries that are like any other country comes as are all different histories different cultures and that's fine but the ones that have for political systems and for economic systems have an interest in the world being a peaceful place those are where the opportunities are there is there other countries that people gravitate to win and want to come in and be a part of mr smyth yes and my suggestion is that that nato would would start looking at south korea japan and australia singapore

india and other countries that that have chemical systems but have systems that are moving towards for your political and freer economic assistance because they have a common interest and you know after that the members of nato but that's some linkage i mean think of the males partnership for peace program where we're linking with other countries and having training with other militaries that anonymously advantages to those countries but they're also reading them changes to the nato countries and that's a good thing so i would i would think that that they don't want to recognize that a large fraction of the problems that the nato nations are going to face are not going to be in north america or western europe one of the problems and that that developing some linkage linkages with other like thinking countries would be good for the other countries that would be good for the united states it would be good for the nato nations and it would it would provide a the reach and capabilities

that that would i think contribute to have a more peaceful and a more stable world and if there's one thing for political systems and for economic systems it's a world that is basically stable and so that the interaction economic interaction that takes place and so anderson contributes to the energy and vitality and opportunities that are criminals you are correct that was the last question mr donald rumsfeld former secretary of defense rumsfeld was speaking to staff and students at the us army command and general staff college at fort leavenworth on february twenty fourth two thousand twelve he was promoting his memoir known and unknown i'm j mcintyre if you have comments or questions about this or any other kbr prisons probably align my email address is kate mcintyre at k u dot edu that's

k m a c i n t y r e and k u that edu or you can post your comments on k pr as facebook page this cape you're present in many others are archived at our website k pr that k u dot edu while you're there you can find out about upcoming k pr and community events ticket giveaways and keep your membership and merchandise you can also listen online to keep your two with news and information from npr and the bbc again that that k pr back at ew dot edu kbr present is a production of kansas public radio at the university of kansas even if the scope of the last in every night and how easy it is to demonize the beef industry next time on k pr presents legendary broadcaster turned rancher bill curtis i'm kate mcintyre join

me eight o'clock sunday evening as bill kurtis turns his investigative journalism skills on the beef industry how could four hundred thousand self inflicted victims anything more than at least suicide didn't they choose the themselves to death unless there was something that shouldn't be there in the food in order to prove homicide or negligent homicide we have to look for motive means and opportunity means might be the easiest place to start means of that it's pretty obvious that the united states has called the western increasingly yield would become both our salvation and our bargain mother nature of whom worked millions of years to perfect the perfect solar machine to turn plants that we can see into protein that we

can in the form of these in a sustainable full circle are now living out their lives in a place without any arrests at all standing in their own win over at our present broadcaster bill curtis is tall grass feed company and his love affair with the state of kansas no matter how far astray in the world was always pulled back to kansas i love a hilarious i love the beaches that southeast asia but there was something about fences won't stay with my it was not until i returned home for a visit but my parents let the first connection to the land became so clear at our present broadcaster bill kurtis eight o'clock sunday evening on kansas public radio is in

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