Interview; H. Bentley Renwick; Part 1

So, and the Japanese were reportedly very industrious, very energetic. That's the reason why we occupied Japan. Now, the same equipment that you're using right here is a direct result of the occupation of the Japanese, the Japanese homeland, which is fine. And I think this is the reason why it's the Communist country right now. Let's bring it up in a few years and talk about it for most. Taiwan is its core. Right now, we are practically turning our backs on Taiwan. We are entertaining the mainland island of China, because you see right now we can no longer think that China is important.

No more blood sucking is needed. What we can do with this is China, because China is a threat. So, we entertain China now. You are aware of the fact that China has said we will not join the United Nations until Taiwan is ours. Now, if, and this is just a personal opinion, but I think it's fast, if China was not sure that Taiwan would be ours, they would make that demand. So, it shouldn't be the surprise to anyone when it happens. That's the counter, because you do what we are. And the protest is the United States stage to that type of simple stage. I believe that's just like I think the protest that George Wallace made to stand in that door,

to disallow offering lucid from the University of Alabama. It was stage. That's been reported, because I'm not saying that this is my theory now, but I believe it. That there was a deal between the then Attorney General of the United States, Robert Kennedy and George Wallace. Kennedy was saying, look, we're going to take it over. Wallace was saying I've got to say faith. So, politely remove me from the door. That's politics. But that same man. Right. The same type of thing. Do you find conspiracies of plots in the world?

Anybody understand it? Do you find it because of your own personal situation? Do you find that there are movements of foot, things like that in the middle of the world? The powers of work that people don't really understand. Oh, definitely. I don't think the masses of people in any country really understand what's going on in a country. Over the top. And before television, it was even worse. Except because people refused to read. It's mostly by word of mouth, what they hear. And a good politician finds out what they want to hear. And then he tells them. And that's the end of it.

Well, I think about the question that this theory is kind of racist. I think in that way, in January, he started coming across, and I told him, and so the question, are we the people we set out to be? And dealing with this bicentennial series about North Carolina, and the thing that it turns around to badwill, and the core is dead. But rather, with what the United States set out to be in the remote-characteria, the kind of the country that those people thought they would put together. So the one became of that, but the country became so far. What were the people we set out to be? Sure we are. And you really have to understand what you set out to be in first place when the Bill of Rights was first inaugurated. I am not foolish enough to believe that any of those people had any thoughts

of including me as Black. And so I think that the country is still enacting that Bill of Rights, and in that same context, for as long as they possibly can, they're going to try to exclude me, simply because I'm Black. On that, on that, I don't forget the exact year. So you didn't have me in my Bill of Black man as being part of that Bill of Rights. So I think I can safely say that the country, certainly, is accomplishing what he set out to accomplish. It's just that they are beginning to feel a little uncomfortable because they have a few calls to begin to be placed in the wheel.

They don't like this, but they have to tolerate Chicano's American Indian Blacks. Columbus repeatedly discovered America. And you know, it's surprising how a stupid statement like that has held up all these years. And I asked you, what in hell were those Indians doing here when he got here? If he discovered it. So you have all these types of things that have been repeated over and over again. And Black students are beginning to question this in the junior high and high schools.

When they have a test, who discovered America? He's got to put down Christ of Columbus. He just discovered America. And some of them are beginning to say, Christ of Columbus and the Indian say, I think what the student is trying to do is tell him, I want to eat, but I'm also going to tell you I'm not eating, I'm not that stupid. The fact that he's gone. I don't know how old you are. I'm 40 years old. I can remember when he had the news of the day newsreels doing World War II. And how they propaganda rise. Let's say it's Japan. The reason why I'm using Japan is the fact that I spent two years in Japan while I was at home.

And you know, I don't know about that. And most of my time, I said, probably there were some beautiful women over there. What you saw on the newsreels was seven-year women were either pulling a rickshaw or with a pack of wood clothes on the back. You see, that's the type of soldiers that are white capitalists decided to perpetuate. You don't have to really come out and say it. You've been putting in so many different terms, you know. You see on television a commercial about Johnson Wax. Have you ever seen it demonstrated on a floor in the ghetto that's really dirty? It's always in middle class America. The house is clean. The floor is clean off the eat-on before they even spread it down there.

You know, the wife has a hair down, you know. But we accept this. As a typical American housewife, Wax in her floor. And that's a complete lie. Even if the typical American housewife is like the most white. It's even more of a lie. I mean, I don't have to tear you. There are more whites living in that situation than black. I'm just curious. Without naming any names or whatever it takes to use on a tremble. What is the situation like at this university? What are the problems? What are you planning for right now? What are you doing right now? The higher industry in the university was bad. Well, I came here in 1969 as assistant director of admissions.

I don't think that when they charge me with the responsibility of increasing the minority enrollment on campus, I really don't think that they expected me to bring in the numbers that I did. I'm going to elaborate, but actually that sums up the whole problem. But we have approximately 1,300 black students on campus. At least we did for the 1974-75 academic year. I've that told about 1,000 of them are undergraduate students. There have been some instances where I've gotten a lot of trouble with things I've said, some of the actions that I took. I don't carry elaborate on them because I don't think they should make public.

They don't want to be on campus. They've made some people square. But I'll make a joke on the statement. I know what it took to get me the black students. No doubt about that. I'll never forget that. And if it takes the black students to get me fired, I don't mind taking that risk. Constantly. If I'm convinced that certain persons, certain groups, on the campus, are operated in a fashion that I deem, that you may own, that overall success of the black students on this campus, he's going to hear from me and it has been done. That, to me, is my most important mission at the University of North America.

I will hear it. Most of the black students start telling us, if you're hurt, you get the feeling that the university really did it once in a year after all. Yes, I did. We had a period around 1971-72, whereby the university started, and at least the way I interpreted it, really started backing all of the commitment. And I wrote a report, commenting on this. In the next spring, they were on the doorstep, which they have sought building, protesting some of the programs designed for increasing the minority population, being cut back. It took this to get the programs reinstated,

and then the role began to climb again. It was about this time that I left the undergrad admissions office and came in to the College of Arts and Sciences, which I'm assistant dean in charge of council, primary minority students. What kind of problems should they bring here? Well, it's a variety of problems. They may have poor study habits, and this is not a problem. It's a problem almost across the board. I guess if you wanted to pinpoint problems or blacks, it would be that some of the subtle expressions that may be displayed by a professor in the classroom. I guess one of the patrons is the misuse of the word Negro.

Well, a professor may say Negro, and it's very confusing to a black student when it actually doesn't accept either term, but he would rather command and say Negro, you see. You know, probability he would much rather say black, because there is a segment of the black population in this country that prefers Negro. It's a problem for very hard to get the term Negro. Well, I should give it up. I don't blame them for this. I think if they prefer it far, because it's one thing I do believe in as individual rights. The numbers have solved a lot of problems on this campus now. When I was here in graduate school in 1964-65, I could walk two or three weeks and never see a black student.

Now, you see, with the 1300 black students may have on campus, it's a little more comfortable. But the problems are still there. Black students are no longer interested in paying 95% of the dues. What I mean with that is, when this whole movement started, and actually whites took the attitude, well, you don't want this inaugurating this whole process, then you come to see me. In other words, you pay all the dues. Now, I don't have to meet your headway. The blacks have gotten to the point now that they're saying, you have to meet me headway. Oh, I'll stay to myself. And this is the reason why you're saying the kind of a reverse segregation movement. Now, I don't think it will last around maybe 15, 20 years.

But the black student is saying, I am sick and tired of trying to figure you out. So I'll just leave you alone and stick with my own can. Then I'll have to worry about you. And this is what's happening right now. I like to have my own little social setting. I like to have my own newspaper on the campus because you're not addressing yourself to my problem. I like to have my own black student movement. It's because you do not address yourself to my problem. And this is going to continue until whites are able to brain themselves to the point that I'm going to meet headway.

Let me give you a couple of examples of what I'm talking about. A couple of years ago, one of the fraternities on campus, which was all white, came to me quite concerned that they could not recruit black members. And what they wanted to do was charge me with the responsibility of recommending a couple of good black males for their organization. I told them that I would accept the responsibility, and I would accept the charge, but not the number. I said, I would recommend 15 black males for your formation. They couldn't handle that. You see, whites become very uncomfortable when it looks like they're going to be out voting. You look at the state of North Carolina, look at most of the schools. If in a school, if it's 70-30, 70% white, you don't have much of a problem.

You've voiced that. You see how many private, Christian academies crop up in a radius of 20 miles. Is there a big example of that? I don't know here, but I understand it's a very serious, like, 80-20. Right. I'm not sure. I'm not sure of the percentage, but I know that. I heard 80-20. That's it. 20-80. That could be true. Right. I'm not sure of the percentage. I don't know that they are becoming quite along at the overall balance or on the balance. I don't know what side you look at it. But this has happened right on the campus here, which is a fraternity. When you said that, one of the things I wanted to catch you are the fraternity thing. You said they actually recommended a couple of good and private males. What is good to be in that case? Now, actually, no, I really, we never got that far, because I guess if I had put a little more pride, a place, a high pride, and on that question, rather than the normal, they

may have, I may have gotten an answer. But once I started talking about more than two or three, that was just, that was the story that broke the campus back. It is probably impossible to speak of students as typical of their age group. Students are different from normal students in grade 8. So this question probably doesn't make any sense because of that. Are black students typical of black students of age group? And are black students of child and children typical of black students in other person's state? Do you think it might have to come to chat a little bit or school? Does it come from different places, different backgrounds, different kinds of, you know, proof of schools, different encounters? Right, it's a highly divisive group. But it's one thing you have to keep in mind. The admissions standards here are quite high.

So that really answers your question. We do get a special type of black student. He's got to be a special type in order to meet the admissions criteria. There's no way he'd get in here. You talk about open admissions. On paper, yes. We have an open admissions policy. But the policy, and I could be just wrong. It states that if you have a high school, you must be admitted to an institute of higher learning in the state of North Carolina. But you see, we have so many. We have more probably in North Carolina than in Southern state. Therefore, if you turn down here, you can't complain that you have something because you have a high school diploma. All they say is, well, there are other institutions that will take you.

And as long as you have one that will take you, they stay on. Then they have, you know, I guess, lived up to the level of law. But it takes a pretty good student to get into the University of North Carolina. The last year I was in admissions. We had a freshman quarter of about 3,000 students. We got 9,000 applications for those 3,000 spaces. So we can afford to be very, very selected. What I'm really trying to get at is, is one of the blacks of that age group, who were, you know, certainly they were born after, to be here for an education. Right, really.

They don't see the contrast. They probably had it to most of them experiencing secondary school. Well, not, not, not, not high school, in a way. Yeah. How concerned are they? How much progress do they think has been made? Where do they think the progress needs to be made from here? Or do they even think about it? They think about it. The first thing I thought about was the black area used to work. Right. His answer to that was he didn't think about it. It's just the way it was. He didn't think about it. I'm not surprised. Maybe a lot of the older ones do. People that spent their entire educational span in segregated schools. But you see when you get students that are starting out in the first grade,

admittedly, they don't know what it was like 25 years ago. But they do know that they are not getting the same opportunities, the same education that the white student is. And I don't care if you are under the same roof. And a lot of instances, you are not getting the same education. Because a menu of about 70% of those teachers also came from the segregated environment. So you see they haven't forgotten either. So there is a big difference in this student. Now this student is still restless because I guess for the primary reason, I don't understand.

Because I don't know what happened back there. My daughter doesn't understand that we used to ride it back in the bus. She'd never ridden it back in the bus unless she wanted to go back there and ride it back in the bus. But I want to know why. The white kids can drive this bus and I can't. And that's not going to happen to me. That's the big difference, you see. Why the white kid has a bus going to his neighborhood and maybe better than mine. When I was in school, we probably wouldn't talk about it. We wouldn't say anything other than in our own peer group. These students are very outspoken. And they don't buy this adage that we will eventually have an equal slice of the pie. These students say I want an equal slice now.

It's a big difference. And I think most of them realize that although we do have to work within the system, that periodically is going to come in need for a little more drastic action. Of course, frankly, I haven't seen very much that the power structure has done for blacks. Unless they result into a violent tactic. And up to me is most regretful. It's bringing home right to this campus. Three years ago, I made the statement that I don't believe that anybody could name one commitment that the University of North Carolina had made to blacks.

That they didn't even ask for threatened violence or had to be enacted into law. I mentioned this on three different occasions. And I had three different universities and officials to lay claim to the fact that they had bought robes of the black student movement choir. Now, they really discounted my state. My state was rendered invalid, really. But for three different people to claim the same fee, I did this. I was responsible for the role. The role was kind of funny. Right.

But this is the type of thing that white people seem to just let this pass by. Unless it's a major confrontation, then you don't have a problem. But it's on the line, soldiers, that to blacks are just as important. As if you're telling me I can't enter the University of North Carolina to have legal. I don't think there's anything unusual about North Carolina. I guess I'm used to North Carolina. I don't think there's anything unusual about it. I can't say that North Carolina is better than Mississippi. I don't think it is. Mississippi may be more vocal than North Carolina.

On both sides. Basically, there's no difference. I wish I had that probably a rich man here again. The first thing I say for a solution, I'm going to gain monetarily. The thing that I've mentioned, I hope you don't think that I'm saying that, hey, yeah, I'm immune to all this. I mean, as guilty as any individual that has lived in this type of society. I like to split the level of how. It's wall to wall everything. And the manicure line and the two causing the garage. Sure, I do it. I'm not going to lie about initially like that. I do. What do you have to give up to get?

Do you feel you have to get that? No, I really don't think I've given up anything. I think I had to work a little harder. I think I've had rather than a give up, I think I've had to put up with more. I give an example of the first month that I was in this job. A distinguished professor on this campus said to me, asked me did I know Blighten Jackson. Dr. Jackson is an authority in black literature. He was the first full professor with tenure to be hired by the University of North Carolina Chapel. He came here the same year that I did in 1969. I told him, yes. In the course of the conversation, he said, you realize Mr. Henry, that Blighten Jackson did not get the job because he was competent. He acquired the job simply because he was blind.

I said, well, before I answered that, you're not saying that he's incompetent. Oh, no, no, not for long. I said, well, then I don't agree with this to you. He got the job because he was blind. And I said, don't you think for one moment that you would have been a hit of your department if you'd been blind? You got your job because you were white. Now, he couldn't deal with that. I got my job first because I was blind. Then they had to find out whether I was competent or not. And as we said, probably in October. I'm not going to answer that. But Dr. Jackson is very competent. But I believe that he was hard because he was black. But the same token, this young man said he had been here for 15 years.

I asked him the question, do you think you would have had tenure and been on this camp for 15 years that you had been black? I don't care how competent you were. But he couldn't deal with that. Now, two, the pause.