The Holiday Season with the History Guys

there's a backstory with us the american history guys so to get out there's ninety six and i don't find out the twentieth century in late december nineteen forty a curious thing happened on the western front in world war one had broken out just a few months earlier but in that short time tens of thousands of soldiers killed and then on december twenty fourth the shooting suddenly stopped here is how one british soldier describes in a letter to his family christmas eve the germans entrenched opposite us began calling entities cigarettes putting happy christmas sweater the fellows kind of the power of the trench went to the gym and trajan's halfway there when the afflictions that said they wouldn't shoot on christmas day if we didn't they get a fella cigars a bottle of wine and get a cake and cigarettes when it came back i went out with some more about thirty giants who seem to be very nice dallas

all through the night we sang carols to them and they sang in the larger scheme of course that was a momentary blip the fighting resumed after christmas and the claims and fifty million lies before him in for good four years later and that's the story here only because it's eleven especially pointed illustration of the outsized role that christmas plays on the modern calendar should happen in europe beyond the purview of the history guys standard repertoire for but there's no denying that christmas has been the big deal of holidays on this side of the atlantic too and so today on our show we're going to explore the history of christmas in america wasn't always such an important holiday how did christmas traditions to evolve do the holidays christian connotations pose a challenge to the ideals of the founders that america should be a pluralistic society with no official religion and what about the other wintertime holidays like hanukkah and kwanzaa was many americans' be celebrating them if it weren't for

will begin at the end of the story christmas in the twenty first century and i we continue our reporting on which american stores are using christmas in advertising this christmas season and which are not weeds mentioned orrin mentioned christmas again in case you haven't for years the war being waged on christmas at least that's what certain cable news personalities and sang until last year john gibson was one of those personalities he hosted the big story on the fox news channel and back into thousand five he published a book called the war on christmas how the liberal plot to ban the sacred christian holiday is worse than you thought it argued that every year local governments and school boards issued bans on everything from santa claus to calling a christmas tree a christmas tree and this flies in the face of supreme court rulings that holiday displays on government property are constitutional so long as they don't get special status to anyone religion i recently reached john gibson on the phone in texas where he now hosts a radio

show for fox news the rules are pretty clear and yet when i went out and did a little bit of investigation about what was going on around the country what i found was that people in these local governments were just making things up that you were just sort of say well i think the rule lot of the action so and so they would do it without any consideration to what the courts said these warriors what is their objective what's the promised land for these folks what are they fighting for get sued they're trying not to cause any controversy and so they start making up rules about what a religious symbol is what could be displayed what say you you work in the county administration office and you want will santa claus at your desk or something you might find a rule about no santa claus at a religious or not it just strikes me that what you just described these bureaucrats behaving like bureaucrats not warriors declaring war on christmas there's a lot of both

admit there are people who have this data we're going to train for christmas is we're going to make it a much more ecumenical a competent thing that gets it and christian you could go to the aclu website and you could see that the aclu is position is that christians can celebrate christmas in their churches and in their homes and from that one might've this at the aclu is chasing this holiday out of the public lot of the public square but out of public view set host of the john gibson show on fox news radio following that conversation we did as he suggested and we went to the aclu is website there without a statement that read in part as follows religious expression is a valued part of the first amendment rights guaranteed all citizens but government should never be in the business of and doors saying things like religious displays religion is best served when the government plays no role in promoting any particular

holiday or any individual religious tradition that job is best suited for individuals families and religious communities so peter ed i mean when i accept the notion that there is a war on christmas there certainly does seem to be a conflict here about how public christmas should they well you know it's if you think about when the system the flow of time and the historical point of the trip to both these pointed use you know for many centuries christmas is very much a public on the streets in your face kind of thing but you did that public celebration really have mission to christ at all and not a word of the bible says when jesus was born it was an in fact until the fourth century after his death that joe church officials finally decided that he was born on december twenty fifteen that's when christians should celebrate but why that day well that date was already addicted people were celebrating its the winter solstice it's saturnalia it's when slaves and masters reverse

positions it's a prominent part of pre christian culture is all over europe the roman catholic church was essentially branding a much older all they try to co opt all they're bringing here as a co op all that celebratory energy and and directed toward its own purposes but here's the thing and this project of the church didn't really work there is an historian named stephen nissenbaum you wrote about all of this in a book called the battle for christmas when i spoke to him recently he explained that europeans continued to celebrate christmas more or less the way they had celebrated that much older wintertime festival even after they arrived in america it happened that christmas took place during the season when there was a lease for males an agricultural society not a lot of work to be done and it was also a season where and there was plenty of fresh food and fresh alcoholic drink so it's a season of excess so it's a season of letting go to seed of over doing business as a little bit like years he does not yeah i

think that what happened is that new year's eve essentially has become the one place where a ritual public misbehavior remains sanctioned that if you can go back before eighteen hundred it was the entire season but business behavior didn't just take random forms it was highly ritualized and the ritual really took the form of what is often called social inversion that is to say for this one ritual time of year the high and the low turn the tables on each other on this one occasion occasion remember that could be fueled by alcohol these people more orders feel that they can act as if they're the bosses and they can go around town entitled to bang on the doors of their betters french the people that they work for themselves and and more alcohol the best food that's the lord of the manor has to offer even sometimes money you can think of it as being a sort of like halloween

like a bad halloween because of the beggars didn't get the drink or the food or whatever gift they demanded they you were liable to threaten or even to perform damage steve the more you talk about this the more on american it sounds to me after all as my mentor for someone of settlement are created equal you can have that kind of celebration or inversion in a world of equals can you yeah but one of the interesting things about the social version before christmas is that it was not a demand for quality it was in fact a reinforcement of the social order because the poor are not trying to eliminate distinctions of status they were maintaining those distinctions of status but they were converting them that's historian stephen nissenbaum author of the nineteen ninety seven for christmas in a few minutes we'll hear more from him about how we celebrate addy

hatch oh you must be about a question we got on the website from london and here's what she wrote i'm the wonderful family's traditional christmas focusing church and family in the us not as the focus goes back to our new england puritan roots level as some quakers a scots irish presbyterians to get more question is this that everything steve is talk about come to an end with the puritans were or did it take these other religions to kind of take some of the air out of christmas well and that's a great question and the puritans approach to christmas was not a low key it was no key in fact they actually banned it made it illegal they've really where a crowd <unk> absolutely the puritans work hypersensitive to the idea of a sacrilege seemed days because they thought of the whole world as god's work everything is

sacred so the distinctions between holidays in every day swelling are strictly taboo in fact one of the whole reasons that the puritans came to new england was to get away from these eight states that proliferated in the english counter that is every day of the year seemed to be assigned stay so that didn't work at all remember puritans work ethic silly wonder sacra was everything you normally sacra wasn't a few dates and tell me rhonda talks about church and family and twentieth century guy we think in those terms how did church and family get back into that christmas picture well while the nineteenth century that puritan spirit of hostility to catholicism is what comes down to mobile service association had given way to a more generous and catholic with a small city center of an openness if the same time there was a new religiosity that had emerged in the second great awakening in america in the early nineteenth century were lots of

people were turning to evangelical christianity and they were taking christianity seriously in a way that the mass of colonial americans had never done so you have both a more secular spirit and the more religious spirit converging and then creating a new calendar of semi sacred altar you know it's so ironic is that that work ethic which was pitted against singling out christmas has come back as one of the major reasons to do it you know isn't that interview i literally i just let our unemployment statistics these days to adjust for all the employment around hiring in history to scotland is interesting as mccoy he's fought back on it so that one wealthy donors ms bui company promises to find a way to win

the others is buying many years and the piece be mrs backstory the show that turns to history to explain the world around us today

i'm peter of vampire were preserved eighteenth century america and then there's your guide to the nineteenth century us of a and i'm brian balogh representing the twentieth century were talking today about the history of this so called holiday season or left off our eighteenth century guy peter was explaining that the puritans not only didn't celebrate christmas but actually made the holiday illegal which wasn't too surprising considering that for centuries it had basically consisted of a multi day bonanza a boost fueled party but despite the puritans best attempts people continue to celebrate christmas the old fashioned way well into the nineteenth century and then in the eighteen twenties so that began to change newspaper start running christmas themed ads for local merchants at this is a new development i guess are people after all was a party full of christmas and a lot of those ads featured a certain character who's also a new addition to the holiday st nicholas aka santa claus first popularized an american newspapers in the form of a poem twas the night before christmas when

all through the house not a creature was stirring not even a mouse a visa for technicals was written at twenty three by clement clarke moore a theology professor and a member of new york very upper crust and he owned a huge estate a new york's west side he was just a kind of died likely to be visited by christmas bankers commanding the masters yesterday jury award the road such a cloud i sprang from my bed to see what was the matter as a matter of course was that there was a little fat man long just the kind of guy who would have joined up with those traditional holiday tours here's historian steven nissen on he's dressed and so the fur is caring what amounts to a beggar's pack on his back he looks like a plugin but this particular figure of santa claus doesn't come to make demands he comes to he have a gift for the mariners

kids now the characters a nic wasn't entirely new to american audiences he had first appeared in a mock history of old new york written by morris good friend washington irving but that st nick was portrayed as he had appeared back in holland as a patrician bishop it was clement clarke moore is the frog king of sample that signaled the beginning of christmas as we know it let's return now to my conversation with stephen nissenbaum author of the battle for christmas the simplest really over simplest way to put the deeper change that caused the new christmas to combat meeting twenties was really rapid urbanization and the early stages of capitalism what those two things coming together did was it took those traditional kind of begging rituals among traditional trick or treat rituals which id gone on for centuries and it sort of intensified the tensions that was

involved in them because now since we're dealing with densely populated cities a poor who go around and in bands are no longer poor people who were known personally to the rich people whose houses they bang the doors on now they're an anonymous old to use a fancy word pro proletariat and when they're in the process of being transformed from traditional apprentices and clerks into what's within a generation going to become an urban proletariat to some extent you're talking about changing conceptions of the social order from a notion of of status and familiar position in the community to a more anonymous something resembling what we might call classic classes the streets are dangerous places and becoming dangerous places that meanwhile the other thing is happening in the house is that

children are in effect stepping up until demand in gifts or awarded kids get off becoming kids and where they are today we'll use one way to talk about that those bands of roving beggars at christmas time would have consisted of the poor but also would have consisted rather promiscuously of young people even sometimes young people from wealthy households that essentially isn't gonna risk subverting the social order in a rather profound way and so like people in new york some very wealthy very conservative people in new york started doing in the eighteen teens in and eighteen twenties was in fact to come up with a new kind of holiday that barricade yourself you like against beggars on the outside and that then sanctioned giving gifts to your own children within the family so if you're

simultaneously beginning to get is the fortress house old fortress family and the whole new idea of children as people do who to be deferred to previously and children and censored and servants within their own households the peninsula lt dependence and the hulk but on christmas day given his very old tradition of converting the social order you know and now limiting that inversion to the internal workings of the family itself i think for many families christmas is the first moment when you begin to look at your children in a new way well look at them as objects into action and objects of sentiment and i think that the new christmas that gets devised to making twenties is really part of that process by which a family that we know of today the modern family which we think of sometimes as the traditional family itself is being invented stay low or pressure on gift giving because it's so central to our modern understanding of christmas yet and it seems to me gifts carry a

heavy burden they're supposed to be deeply personal expressions of the loaf that's a man's family relations and yet at the same time yeah well to put it simply there are commodities so how have americans particularly in this kind of founding curator of modern christian how they resolve the tension between commodity exchange after all that's the nasty business of the marketplace that's supposed to be what were escaping we turn record the home and we're heartless world outside we come into the warm personable bosom over family so how do americans do with the comedy status a gift yeah in a phrase santa claus and from the very beginning that part of it got the skies tommy to use the bluntest word by saying that santa claus brought this gift also by the fact that their raft of their gift wrap their summer special and so the combination of gift wrapping and santa claus essentially takes them out of the

marketplace they magically appear in fact by eating forty you're in a very commonly beginning to get santa claus used by merchants to advertisers where'd you get the edge in the newspapers saying come to santa clauses favor of cotton and buy these goods and that's of course defeating the whole purpose and one of the really fascinating things that though that i found is that beginning the team thirties a group of oh well see bostonian for the most part decided that they needed a new ritual that would the commercial wise christmas in a way that santa had failed to do another ritual was the christmas tree they thought mistakenly that the christmas tree was an old german ritual in which children actually gave gifts to their parent while and that never actually happened steve it's a fairly happy and in one family in one town in northern germany clorox aboard and it still

happened that that family was being visited in the seventeen nineties by the future poet samuel taylor korea who wrote about it in a essay that he published a groundbreaking ten and what happened is that the press started picking this up in the eighteen thirties after the color just i get reprinted and the fact that it was limited to his observation of a single household got lost and who says individuals don't matter history are individually is full of course cora just you know wanted to see something like that ten americans were ready for something like that so they decided that the christmas tree was this pew or completely un commercial ritual that was commonplace in germany when it was not so the way folk rituals were juxtaposed to commercial practices when and then they were part and parcel of the same thing they certainly they were i mean i think that you cannot sue the history of christmas isn't as an ongoing series of efforts to

two d commercializing every effort to de commercializing purify then becomes appropriated or co ops have you know it it's really almost inevitable well steve thanks so much for talking to your very welcome and thank you for years so much for having me on the show stephen nissenbaum is professor emeritus of history at the university of massachusetts is the author of the battle for christmas published in nineteen ninety seven you can find an extended version of our interview on our web site along with the downloadable and the fury of a fascinating conversation stephen i had about christmas in the slave south it's all a backstory radio dot org i'm impressed you exploded a lot of mystery that i actually subscribe to but i want to get personal manager wayne exactly did you stop believing in santa claus i'm sure as a school and some smarter kid just told me and was

like so many of the things i discovered about life or really had no idea yet be careful what you listen to the coast i wasn't the only jewish friends and they told me over and over again the story of hanukkah and it all turned on this greek military victory by the maccabees we beat back the assyrians we reclaimed the temple and then the central miracle we found a drop of oil then we lit candles with that knowing that the camels woodson burnout but in fact they lasted for eight days while he lives and to this very day we celebrate that by lighting the candles that victory and that miracle that god provided to us border to as a powerful story yet only tell you how it ends it ends in the discovery that that's all i miss those candle flame crashing down around my head and you know how the news was broken today in a youtube video three days go wow

have a twenty seven percent and angling for that video was made by laura baum reform rabbi in cincinnati who founded an online congregation called our jewish community dot org we found the rabbis number and gave her a call thick thick i want to just jump right into rabbi i have bought hundreds maybe even thousands of hanukkah candles at full retail eyes and they now i learned is that maybe this whole drop of oil last thing a day's thing is like a complete fabrication help me admin and ed is there someplace i could get my money back the original church where you are

hanukkah story about jewish national power a fractured community and eventually a military couple and it was during the time of the period when the rabbi beard that the jews would rebel against rome that they way they're divided the amplified the jewish might in turn this story into one about america all of wailed laughing great dave isay so for political reasons they'd actually it was better to spin the story if you will as a more pacifist less militaristic grass i'm back and rely on a miracle then we'd all be fine with her to the rabbinic period view of that but it was a very very pathetic point that temple had been betrayed their acute failed rebellion rabbi renowned party unity and potentially fighting to turn inward and they didn't want to do to rebel against rome well i was wondering if you could take us through some of the other twists and turns

of the hanukkah story if there are any more twists and turns a minute in the late nineteenth century united states one that that war widow her come into the mud on the rise and jewish revival of that that point played them to the hanukkah story jewish national strength of revival again and i thought well that we need you right now kept alive on the american experience and make that a jewish experience to meld the two together and they made a story again about jewish national strike which added them energy acquire i can compete with the popular colter and could you build more specific about how that made it more american i think that it became more american at that point because it was really a story about her and then that going for what you wanted becoming a nation so heartening it back almost to the american revolution center i got it up do you have kids of your own now i do have nieces and nephews

i wanna know what you tell them the story of hanukkah is really important when we're teaching children about religion than anything he'd later though i run a religious school here and we don't share their oil story of a real story and then ten years later they get a ghetto by the way about what would have barkley accurate you know greek political power really an entity that there are other historical reason for the holiday but i think of the great learning opportunity that i look at how that holiday at and at what our role going to be in the continuing evolution of the jewish experience however we got our own and what would you say the essence of the real not the mythical but the

real jewish experiences in regard to hanukkah i think the story that have only one method i think it's become a wonderful way for a family friend that belgrade i think that the way for jews to feel tired of the american experience while there a period where in many cases celebrating christmas but i think it's more than that i think that the first version of the hanukkah story which recorded an attack american beef or really story about standing up for what you believe in doing the right thing building a people trying to find a common wait for the community and author of backing individual voice though i think that though they're incredibly important that we can continue to you thank you so much with rabbi laura brown is based templeton cincinnati ohio she's also the founding rabbi of our jewish community dot org an

online publication a link to her three minute youtube explication of the hanukkah story of backstory radio dot org that's very generous unhelpful understanding about that things are debunking out raids you know just to thinking there's a reason these things exist and that's good and we can still continue sharing with their children and families doesn't mean that you have to choose one over another strikes me as a very capacious way of understanding and you know it and frankly it makes me feel a lot better about a holiday we dropped from our own family's celebration kwanzaa for a period there we celebrated christmas hanukkah and kwanzaa and yeah now the people i hang out was pitched is in history wise guys this african historian said you know chords is just totally invented and it was hard to celebrate after that if i had only met you guys you know from the

start that all three holidays were very much invented and simply evolved in relationship to other religious holidays and not to mention the kind of culture that they were invented we've been focusing on invention and the way our holidays are created at specific moments in time and things can be a cultural forces and lead to this celebration of a holiday but wait we should also remember when we're thinking about the invention that these holidays the celebrations work for people to do something that we don't make our desire for no reason and we act as if they own us in fact they are us favorite gift for

years six businesses backstory the show that explores the connections between america's past and present leader of the fifteenth century mystery guest and then there's that he's had or just forgot to survive the twentieth century today on the show we're celebrating the holiday season by its stores and the professors didn't know how to have the tyler not that we're going to go to the phones now we've been inviting your comments on today's topic on backstory radio dot org and our producers had invited a few of the folks who have come it's fair to join us on the line liam neeson on the line

from philadelphia pennsylvania mason welcome to back story here so tell us what's on your mind today i've been wondering why are they practically in olive oil recovery by comparison well that's a tough one of my idea would be that we're a very sentimental self centered people individuals was the big thing and mr pursell high holy day calendar our birthdays are a way up there i think the idea that jesus had a birthday this a few macro version of our micro and we get birthdays he's got a birthday now think about it that's a way in which the calendar of our allies i think intersect so meaningfully with a sacred counter as one of easter of course is very important it's a rebirth day you might say writer been born again a certain essential important evangelical tradition but being born in the broader christian tradition is way up there

wow what a good answer you know i think there's there something to the sweetness of the story of that of the manger as a wise man you know and it's a little more accessible to children and dan rebirth and resurrection and all those things and i think it did the answer is something to your spirit a birthday is as close to universal experience and as we have it is also under democratic i think you know that jesus could be born in a manger and they're so that successful i think in that way as well because even most modest home can seem like a fitting place for the commemoration of this great bursts that were celebrity yeah you know despite you know all the language about kings and lord of lords in all this he's little baby and so it's such a family struck out exactly how the danger we were talking about which is to make his offices all planned and of course it wasn't just not as if it's an people send a boardroom at macy's and thought it happened we move a lot of merchandise by

a holiday that's made it up but there was something about the nineteenth century that needed it seemed like a good idea you know to take something that had been suppressing even disapproved of pop cureton forebears and turn it into something important and i think the key thing and workers amy asserts the family taking a certain form in the nineteenth century that makes this whole other resonate more than any of them make it makes sense right and i think it's a convergence of both religious faith was a nineteenth century is a very christian when asked about faith and i'm doubly challenge now being jewish and being twentieth century but towards the end of the nineteen century doesn't god become a friendlier more loving god isn't this part of what becomes a social gospel well you know listen i think what we're talking about brian the year domestication of its animals original christmas the central focus on the christ child and on the

birth of all of that i think mediate street awesomeness an awful mess of calvinist christian god of jonathan edwards is theologically that david religion itself is kind of changing the other way it's taken in a passive culture you don't have the benefit of the virgin mary to perform his media torah role and i think in a way the sentimental as jesus performed several venture so nathan we've been suggesting they answer to your excellent question is that you wanna know why the holiday takes on the significance of now as you have to look at a crucial moment in or historical experience when the stars are more alignment and everything from the marketplace commerce christianity too of a mid winter break down anything here's a hot tip keep your eye on purim i think it is that's the farm on effective in

that overall what you have forced to they do i really have like an economic question related to christmas i wonder i am it seemed that the kind of story we get from the government and the media and i mean i don't mean to make it on the conspiratorial like that but the story here is that the mike haile thirty days thanksgiving don't go well and i wonder how long it's been billed of like the driving engine of the economy one acronym for you this bug or the society for the prevention of use was giving and this is a progressive hero society in the teens of the twentieth century and already that said they're really worried about this commercialization now

a measure they viewed it as a maker or a break or the economy the way we do today but think that the society for the prevention of useless giving off but it is true that a large portion of retail trade is over the extended holiday season and forty percent then ignited my dad owned a jewelry store i worked in that to his door every christmas season he did half his business during the christmas hanukkah season one could become a duty to our you know kind of like i'm there after nine eleven you know go shopping and that we were like what you know set david are in the nineteen thirties way you even unions and certainly automobile manufacturers began to make the case to their workers a you know just

work a gm or four new images workers your consumers as well now that they use that to argue that that you know government should provide care subsidies particular for healthcare to these kinds of workers but it's really the thirties that economists and business leaders begin to talk about the responsibility of workers also consume the products that they're producing now it really takes off after world war two but i would place the origins of that in the nineteen thirties you were doing in and they're giving me for hanukkah and actually helped create like that and it's creating prosperity by producing a lot of crap

hasn't made us happy you might ask as a rich source of a quarter yes it is a profound tension in being enjoined to wasteful consumption of course they would say is wasteful just consumed by this morass a terrible outcome a pretty darn happy that her care was to show how deeply affected and infected we're with consumer culture responder as you recall the stinger things that we were well we actually we got what we wanted day we get a good call for a new and so thanks very best wishes to you maj gen again one day event teenager named tyrone jones

walking down with philadelphia we thought move on a fat man in a santa claus custom ok fine but the fat man was african american tyrone couldn't believe his eyes it never crossed his mind the synod to be black well three decades later the ideas about is ho hum as it could be for him and that's because tyrone who himself is african american is now the official santa in residence at the chan him square mall in north philadelphia i called up tyrone and i asked him how he decided to start donning the red suit yes diesel oh

yes now what are the reactions of the kids to you know you're a black sand and is that something that you're aware of the site's ago ministers are just like any other center order where you know the parents lt have reason to believe that some people go to jon hamm mall just because you are black sand and that someone unusual word well you will you know and when you when you try to make each kids

experience special is that something bad has race connected with a clear field particular strongly towards a black kid or are you kind of colorblind in that regard you know it's we want a gigolo i'm sure that you do but that sayed da and wish that there were more blacks and is out there oh harry oh you know that's a really terrific look what you do with a shy kid or the kid who's scared to have certain techniques you know which one

is dancing you really are an unusual so that's got a break the ice oh geez mr jones what is the most unusual request that you've gotten from a kid for a gift a lawyer well that's that's very tough bare desert happen very often what he tell him we were worried

so so good advice for those kids it's pretty good now we i i honestly don't know how many kids listen to our show but i'd like to give you the chance to do a shout out to all those kids who are gearing up for their visit to santa cruz you have any advice for them i did it's real mr jones that's terrific in the broccoli growers of america also a cruise ship

i well i thank you for spending all this time and they're my kids or grown up and you know i'm a white guy my kids are african american and i know that it may not make much difference to you but i wish there had been a black santa like you around when my kids were little and i would've taken and the ceo of really appreciate your time with us now your vegetables that's simon johnson dr

walston to him because that season he really analyze what's best about all this holiday traditions you know they would find new ways to narrow how history changes to celebrate the family tradition each other yeah and i think he really represents the way this country changes in the way but not that african americans weren't here but the way that they are now engaged in mainstream culture especially consumer culture but you know we talked earlier in the show about the influence of germans coming over here we talked about the ways in which jews adapted to the rise of christmases that make a holiday upgrading the quality of hanukkah and this story about blacks and accommodating says a lot about both what it is to be american and what is to celebrate a holiday o'brien or so away in which something that we take from our past the idea of santa claus and it has a timeless past for us ken can be changed and so the changes that we as historians are discovering the past

are actually a very hopeful preview of what we can be doing in the future love this senate cause i'm going up there the full benefit of the guys and joining us on the air baxter a bicycle built for three will go up a field goal that's all the time we have for today show visit us online to continue the conversation and leave us a comment to investors actually revealed that sign up for a free podcast and friend us on facebook it's all a backstory we'll go thanks for listening and may more to you it's b extras produced by funny feel to that helped kathryn more ethanol no matter the show got the alternative thing special thanks to that offer sharp and always special thanks to actively producer major support for veterans provided by the

university of richmond offering a combination of the liberal arts lot of business leadership studies and continuing education more information of major support also comes from the colonial williamsburg foundation of the future support also comes from the davy harrison fun for the president's initiatives at the everest of virginia that one down for the man who's chaste as in marx and cheryl weinstein tracinda to quote care about epstein and that we all live brown jr terrible foundation released miller center of public affairs and anonymous the thomas jefferson memorial foundation professor of history at the university of virginia brian balogh is a professor of history at the university of virginia and eliades miller center of public affairs at areas as president and professor of history at the university of richmond back story was created by andrew when the radio at the virginia foundation the

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