Student News Conference; John Dean

... Mr. Dean, some people view you as a hero, whereas other people view you as a prophet of doom. How do you see yourself? Well, I see myself as a person who is at peace with myself, having gone through what was certainly the worst experience of my life, and also in many ways the best. But I think I'll have to wait and read history myself to see how I come out. Hello and welcome to this edition of Student News Conference. Today's guest is Mr. John Dean, former White House Council. Our panel members today include Lenny Lieberman of Taftai, Barbara Tannenbaum, also of Taft,

and Marcos Martinez from Recita High. I'm Anita Wertz. Our guest, our panel and I, will be ready to continue the questions and answers in just a moment. Student News Conference is an interview program by and for high school students. As young people, we have expressed our strong desire to know, to be involved. This program is an opportunity for us to ask our questions and to participate. Once again, our guest is the former White House Council, Mr. John Dean. Our moderator is Anita Wertz from Southgate High, and Carlos Perez from Marshall High. Let's resume our questioning with Barbara. Your name has been out of the news since you got out of jail. Could you inform us what you've been doing since then?

Barbara, I've been busy working on a book, which is in its very final stages right now, and hopefully I'll have a bow on it in about a month at the most, and then it'll be published in the fall. Marcus? What are your options today as far as your political career? Well, I have to tell you a funny story when I was out lecturing, and I was up in Canada. I got stopped by a newsman in a hotel, as I was entering the lobby. And he said, Mr. Dean, is it true that you're out talking on the lecture tour to test sentiment to run for the presidency? I had to assure him that no, I wasn't. So as far as my options, though, I really don't plan to take any active part in elective politics, and maybe some behind-the-scenes activity and areas that interest me. I'll be working in. On that tour, you are criticized for having accepted money while you were on your speaking tour. How do you answer these critics?

Well, I generally tell them that I wish I could appear for free as I have around my home state, and as, for example, come into a program like this. But unfortunately, I have to make a living also and do it the best way I can. So I generally just explain where I am on that. Okay, Lenny. From your travels around the country, do you get the impression that young people still have faith in the American system of government? Well, Lenny, I see a lot of cynicism on campus, and a lot of desire to get involved and not knowing how to get involved in frustration in that regard. I think that there's a lot of interest still, but it's not the activist interest that certainly existed during the years of the Vietnam War, where students were more inclined to go to the streets and make a lot more noise than they are today, but the interest is still there. What do you think needs to be done perhaps to revitalize that interest? Well, as I say, I think the interest is there, and it's the degree of its visibility that

I don't know what the answer to that is. I think that the students that I've talked with are looking for vehicles to find some way to express their interest, and I think that there's a lot that students could do to follow that interest up if they wanted to. Barbara, what of curiosity you have expressed the desire to talk with students as evidenced by your college tour and, of course, by your appearance here? And do you seem to have a special message that you want to give to high school students? Well, I, the reason I talked to students is because it wasn't too many years ago that I was a student, I can still remember it, it's not that great a gap, and I could conceive of myself sitting where you all are, and never having conceived that I'd be in the position that I've got myself in. So I've had a lot of time to think about where I, you know, how I got to the problem, I got myself in, and it's really been in talking with students about that and trying to

share that experience, and I felt that if only one student could learn something, not that I want to teach or preach, but just see how I got where I did, and what I did once I was there, and it was worthwhile. Marcus? What do you think about the extremely small number of 18-year-olds who are exercising their rights to vote? I think it's a shame. I think it's a shame that anybody who has the franchise or the right to the franchise doesn't do something about it, and this is certainly an area where students interested in politics could mobilize other students to get them to polls, but as we all know there's a great apathy about voting, and it's only when it seems to be an issue that touches persons personally, that they get themselves out and get to the poll and get interested, and it's a shame that more people don't exercise the vote, particularly the young people. Let me. You once said that anybody who says no in the White House doesn't stay there very long. When you were a presidential council, was that true in your case?

Yes. It was. I think after I said no, I had the countdown started, and I had my lesson ceremony as departure. Do you think that's true of many of the presidential advisers that they often have to sacrifice some of their own personal feelings and convictions because the president might disagree? Well, when I say, you know, when we're referring to no, I'm talking about a staff person taking a very firm, hard position, certainly a staff person in a president expects a staff person to argue the other side. It's once he makes his decision, that staff person who is there to serve at his pleasure, and for his benefit, has to go along with what the president says. So I think that yes, there is a compromising of one's feelings about issues to serve the man that you're working there for, and if more people probably would stand up and leave, when they really had violent disagreement, it would be a lot different, but that very seldom happens.

Recently, Daniel Moynihan quit his post with the United Nations and others are getting out of politics. Do you think that indicates something about our government that needs to be changed? Well, I'm not sure Mr. Moynihan is getting out of politics or whether he's moving from one phase to another. Barbara, what do you feel have been some of the more far-reaching and significant governmental reforms to come out of Watergate? I think that there's been a lot more talk than there has been action. Of course, there has been certain electoral reforms in the election laws, which has been criticized as to whether it really was not an overreaction to some of the problems by cutting expenditures and things of this nature extremely so, and if anything, I don't think that legislation, for example, doesn't cure a problem like Watergate. You can't legislate morality, so it's not the laws that are being written. I think if there's a legacy that's coming out, it's that politicians aren't going to

do what was done during Watergate because they know the American people aren't going to tolerate it. That may be one of the more far-reaching effects. Marcus? Do you feel our government is still by the people of the people for the people? Very much so. Lenny? Part of your job as the President's Council was to deal with the problems of intelligence and national security, were you aware of some of the CIA activities that have come out in the Congressional subcommittees when you were in the White House? Very few, very few, that was all new stuff to me and my dealings with the CIA were tangential and more grapevine information than really direct dealings with the agency and what other people were talking about. So, while I'd heard of some of these things, many of them were all revelations to me. Now as a private citizen, how do you think our intelligent operations should be altered?

Well, I read recently an article in the Columbia Journalism Review by Fulbright. I don't know if you all happen to see that or not, it was a very interesting piece because Mr. Fulbright certainly has credentials as a outspoken liberal on most issues but yet he felt and why has he pointed out that we can carry this exposure of intelligence operations for exposures sake too far. And I, as a citizen, have nothing to think that there's got to be, while it doesn't hurt the American people and be the American people, should know what's going on, that when you just start exposing for exposure sake, we're going too far and that there's no legitimate purpose in some of the exposures. As far as some of the intelligence operations, I think some are necessary. Some obviously got carried away. And I don't think we can effectively operate as a country or can government govern without a good intelligence apparatus.

Barbara? Well, the media has been accused of exploiting Watergate, but how do you view the deluge of books written on the subject by the people involved in Watergate? Well, who are you referring to specifically, Barbara? Specifically well, there have been talk in the newspaper of all the defendants who are writing their book, there's books by Halderman and Ehrlichman coming out. I don't believe there's Watergate books though. Some are novels, however, there are some Jeb Stuart McGruder wrote his book. Do you view that this possibly is an exploitation of their role in Watergate? Well, it's a sensitive issue. I think that many of these people, Chuck Colson, is another one who recently had a book that came out about his conversion to Christianity. There is material in there relating to Watergate and his past experiences, but that's certainly not the thrust of the book. I can't consider that an exploitation on Watergate. It's a sensitive issue because I think people have a right to know.

Now, I say I feel a sensitivity because of the same thing I went through an electorate to, or I don't think that people should profit on infamy and bad deeds. But on the other hand, I know with the amount of hours that I've spent myself working on this book, and there are hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours and weeks and weeks and months and months, and had I not spent that time, I could have been out earning a living elsewhere, doing other things. So I feel that I can't merely say I'm going to do this for charity because I'd been great-dedified, again, if I were. So it is, in a sense, an exploitation, yes. But I think there are a lot of people who want to find out some of the facts of what went on. The books that have been written thus far on Watergate, to me, tell very little it's new. It helps fit in and understand what happened. What exactly will be the focus of your book, then? Well, it won't be a rehash of the old, and I think you'll find a lot that's new.

I hopefully will explain a lot of the unanswered questions, and I'll tell a story of what it was like to be confronted with having to talk about the most powerful man in the world. And testimony that I knew would very much change the history of his office. Marcus? Mr. Dean, what kind of treatment do you feel the media gave you personally? I felt very good. Obviously, there was that period in which there was great effort by the Nixon White House and Nixon defenders to discredit me and to put out false stories. I was afraid to go to prison for fear of homosexuality. My wife had left me. I was living with a mistress. There were just hundreds of stories of that nature that they printed, but that's their job. They were getting them from good. They thought inside sources, despite their falsity and the like. By and large on balance, I felt they were very fair with me.

Do you feel Watergate also gave us some lessons in journalism? Oh, indeed. Lenny? What were they, specifically, some of the lessons? The effectiveness of good investigative reporting and keeping an eye on what government officials are doing, the fact that they kept the American people well informed about the unfolding of the scandal. Indeed, it was sensational, but also beneath the lines, people were getting a greater understanding of their government. A lot of these stories were deeply dug and well thought out. There was a lot of junk also that was put out that didn't have much meaning. So the lessons are that, one, the importance of journalism to the operation of government. It's an effect, one of the checks and balances. The other thing is that no one has really sat back yet and showed how some of the sensationalism affected it

all. I'm sure there will be books on that someday. I'm not sure that you could have had a scandal of the dimensions of Watergate in the pre-television era. So I've never, I've thought about that and wondered if it could. Barbara, how do you feel Watergate has influenced this year's voting trends? Influenced voting trends, Barbara? This year. I have no idea. I think that, you know, that it's too early to tell. It's certainly affecting people's, I think, thinking about what they want to have their government look like when it's time to go to the polls. But as far as how it's affecting voting trends, did Watergate hurt Republicans, for example? Yeah. I don't believe so. I think that's an individual thing. I don't think that the Republicans lost great flocks of voters as a result of Watergate because it was a very few people that were surrounding one president who didn't particularly rely on his party apparatus

anyway for his electoral accomplishments. And how do you account for the drop in registered Republican voters? That seems to be a pretty consistent trend that's been going on for a long time. I'm related to Wargate. The independence they're increasing and the Republicans are dropping. Marcus? I'll have your political views and sympathies been affected by Watergate. Well, I don't know. I politically, I certainly think the experience of Watergate showed me a lot about the operations of my government made me reassess some of the ways I thought about the way things should happen. I've often thought what would have happened had the cover-up succeeded. And indeed, we would have had a far different government and we probably would have had someday a Watergate that was far more serious than the one we had. So I think that I can say I've learned an awful lot about my government that might affect my political views. And what specifically have you learned?

Well, we could go into countless areas. Let's just take one. That's the criminal justice system. Train to the lawyer. I should have known a lot more about it. But once you get thrown into it, believe me, you get firsthand knowledge of how it works. And one of the things that strikes me in despite reading about sentencing disparity and its impact, when you're in prison and you see one man who has a five-year sentence for a tax fraud, another man who's got ten years for the tax fraud, and their crimes are virtually identical, but they just happen to draw different judges. It makes a lot of bitterness. If you see the case of, for example, I'm thinking of a case of a young person who was arrested and convicted and sentenced for possession of a little over an ounce of marijuana, that person got five years. That's heavy. To me, that isn't justice when that person gets five years for

that offense. And I only end up serving four months for what I did. That doesn't fit to me. Those are real eye openers. And I've thought a lot about it. And there's areas there that I feel things should be done. And I'm not here to announce what I'm doing, but I am doing things in this area. Lenny? Well, you said you feel you served a light sentence, but yet you're at peace with yourself. Do you find that from your travels across country that people feel that perhaps you still owe something to the American people? Well, I don't know. I have not had that experience in talking to people. No one was more surprised than myself that I was released on a one to four-year sentence after four months. No one was more delighted than myself to be released. As far as do I feel that I owe something more to the American people? No. I felt that I spent 16 months with investigators and prosecutors and committees and countless people. 16 months where I did nothing else that

worked with them trying to write the wrongs that I'd been involved in. I couldn't work in this period. I couldn't do anything. And I continued that when I was in prison. So really it was somewhere almost two years of my life. I spent trying to unravel. And I'd like to think whether it's self-serving or not that I've done more right in my life than I've done wrong. And I feel I've paid for the wrong I did. You mentioned a few minutes ago about power of the presidency. And you have said that Watergate was an accumulation of power in the presidency and that it toppled in the Nixon administration. Do you feel that after Watergate the... I've said that. Yeah, you have said that. Today. No, not today. The past. Okay. Do you feel that after Watergate power of the presidency has declined? And is there a danger happening again? I don't think the power of the presidency has declined. The powers are inherent in the office to the way the men who were in the office exercise it is one thing. I feel that for a while the Congress was indeed flexing its muscle. I

thought that was very healthy. It keeps the system very viable and certain vigilance on what's happening within both branches. The courts also exercised a showing of strength in Watergate. The system worked. I'm not sure whether it worked because of the way it was or the way it's designed or in spite of the way it's designed. That's really not quite clear. But to me the president hasn't lost any power. I don't think that the incumbent president has chosen to exercise it as much as he might. Since we are in a bicentennial year and most people are evaluating themselves and their government, do you think that the American system of checks and balances is strong enough to last another 200 years? Indeed, I do. Barbara, you said that the president... I'd like to come back to that. We've given you a long discussion about that because I've often wondered. I've thought about if, indeed, there could not be some basic fundamental

changes made in the Constitution. There have been a lot of studies as to whether or not there should be a Constitutional Convention, for example. I'm intrigued by the idea, but this is too long a discussion to get into today. I don't want to flat out answer my question. I don't think there's anything that I wouldn't like to see different from having sat where I did in the Council's government. But that's a long discussion. Excuse me, Barbara. That's all right. You did say that the presidency hasn't lost any power. Do you believe that other institutions in our government, such as the CIA, with the new guidelines that have been announced by Ford, that perhaps they're losing too much power or that they're even gaining more? Well, as far as the CIA, I think that you lose a certain degree of power when you're in the spotlight. Secrecy, certainly, is one of the assets of power, or it helps power to exercise its ways in many regards, because no one's

questioning what you're doing if you're doing it in secret. So, indeed, when exposure comes, they do lose some power, and that has happened in that regard, particularly the CIA. I'm sure they're moving much more carefully, but I don't think they're detriment. Mark us. Do you feel the presidency looks different viewed from the inside out? Oh, indeed, indeed, totally different. My perception of the presidency and yours, I'm sure, are far different. What do you feel is the public's conception of politics as opposed to an inside view? Well, I think that particularly with students, as I referred to earlier, there's a certain cynicism that all politics is a little sleazy, little dirty, that there's a lot of wheeling dealing going on, and there's some bad odors that come out of all this sort of thing, and that's one of the reasons I think that students who are interested in following

these affairs, I'm anxious to talk with, because if I can give them some insights into the way it is, hopefully it can encourage them rather than discourage them to enter, because it takes the idealism of young people to keep refreshing that system and keep replenishing it with new ideas and new vigor to get things done. Do you think that some of this cynicism and perhaps bitterness has been created by events such as Watergate? Well, I certainly don't help, I don't think the Vietnam War helped. There's been a whole sequence of events in recent years that have certainly added to that. Manny? What message can you give to young people about some of the ethics and the morality involved in power and dealing with authority figures? Manny, I'd rather not do that, because it sounds like who is he to say those things. I would rather, I would rather, a former counsel of the president who went to jail for what

he did for the president. I'm not the best person to say that. There are some of that that runs through my book, but certainly not in a way that I feel I'm doing it to tell you or anyone else how it should be done, and I'd rather leave it in that context. Okay, where do you think a person who would like to do some good for the government? What area of government should he get into? I think, you know, all of the spotlights of course are on national government, on Washington, what's happening there, sometimes to some degree state government, but really the limelight, the heavy hitters and all that are in Washington, and that's where all the press is looking, that's where your evening television network stations focus, and that's a shame to me, because I'm convinced that you can't solve all the problems from Washington by any means, and if the sort of the best and the brightest to quote a book title went into Halperstein's book, went into state and local government, I think it'd be very healthy, and I think it's also very necessary, because

you can't get, you can't get it all done in Washington, it's got to be done at the local and state level, and if young, able, bright people get involved in their state and local government pretty soon, when that happens, some group is going to really do that. The whole country is going to look over there at, say, California or a gun or wherever it may be, and they say, look at the way those people are running their state, they don't really need all that in Washington, then the focus is going to come there, and then the attractions are going to be there, so that's really what I hope will happen someday, because I think it's essential. Barbara, returning to your perspectives on power from the inside, could you go into a little of how the people on high power view the American public, and that the American public is never truly aware of the high level decisions, yet they do register their dissatisfaction, does this lead to a certain frustration on the part of people in power? Well, that's a very general question, and we don't have a lot of time left, but to

just say that, do people in public places always make their decision in the best interest to the public? I don't think so. I think there are personal motives that get involved in decisions. There are power plays within government as to who will get jurisdiction over a given subject, the public be damned as to who has jurisdiction, there are internal things of that nature that happen that certainly aren't in the public interest, but there are also all men, there are men in government who are thinking what is the best solution to deal with, say, the problem of health care for the age of, or countless problems that affect daily life, and they really are thinking in the public interest, so it's a tough question to answer with a general answer, because it's as different as the men who are making the decisions it's given times and places. Like us? Do you feel that some of the problems we've had with our government are a result of the

people in government or more of the structure of the government itself? I think I mentioned earlier, you can't legislate morality, you can't create laws that make people do the right thing, so just as in running a corporation or running a school or running anything else, it's the people, that's what all this is all about is how people perform in various functions in life. Excuse me, I'm sorry we've just been out of time, I'd like to thank you Mr. Dean for spending this time with us, and thank you panel for your questions. One of our previous guests said the student panelists have lived up to their desire to know, to participate, they have asked their questions, they have looked at society. We as young journalists have a responsibility to inform the public, our questions should not reflect a personal point of view, however the questions are our own, hopefully they are uncluttered by years of existence. I'm Anita Wertz, thank you.