The American Scene; 1st 5 Lives of A Besant

Good morning, this is Howard Vincent, Villingly Arts for the American Scene, Illinois Institute of Technology. Several weeks ago, we did a show on a lady, about a lady called Lady Mary Wurtley Montague, and a number of people commented on what a curious and interesting person she was. So, thinking about her, and I thought also about other remarkable women in history. There are some, as well as remarkable women today, and one of the most remarkable has been somewhat forgotten by the public at large, although she is remembered by a section of public still. That is Annie Bezzent, up until fairly recently, to about 15 or 20 years ago, everybody knew the name of Annie Bezzent. She was one of the great women of history. And for instance, let me read from a book, which I was looking at the other day. She was a free thinker, a consider with materialists, an agitator in radical political circles, a

feminist, an early convert to Fabian socialism, a teacher of science and author editor publisher, the first prominent woman to verify it openly for what is now called birth control, a social and educational reformer, and an art or whose power was so compelling and whose charm was so potent that Shaw was only one among thousands who extolled her as a greatest woman speaker of the century. This is just her career, up to 1885, and she lived a long time afterwards, became a close associate of Gandhi, and so on. In other words, we are going to deal with the first five lives of Annie Bezzent, a really wonderful remarkable woman you may not like her, but you will be attracted to her. As the world was once attracted to her, we are going to try to recover some of that, try to indicate some of that attraction. And in order to talk about the subject, I will ask the author of this book, the first five lives of Annie Bezzent to come in and talk about it with us. Dr. Deather Kot is a professor of English literature at Northwestern University, where he has taught for a great many years, and many of you have probably been students of his. Since he has had such a

fine tradition out there. And now, first of all, I would like to know, here you are, art, a scholar in English literature. You have written two biographies of 17th century writers, English writers. You did this very fine, critical study of a man and superman study of a Shavian portrait gallery. What made you write about Annie Bezzent? He's not an English literature figure. No, she's not an English literature figure. In a way, I have finally caught up with my own age, with my own period, because, as you have pointed out, I began back in the 17th century, and I've worked up gradually. I've still very much interested in the 17th century, but I have worked up through Davinant and Cooley in the 17th century, through Coleridge in the 19th, through Shaw in the 19th and 20th to Annie Bezzent.

And the reason that I became interested in Annie Bezzent was perhaps too forward. After I had finished the manuscript of my book on Shaw, a man and superman, I'm using the plural rather than a singular in that title. I was looking around for another topic, and since Mrs. Bezzent had been so closely associated with Shaw for a long time through their political work, and also in the more intimate and personal fashion, I decided that no better figure for a new biography than she could be found. And second, I was marrying just about that time, and as you may have noticed in my dedication to my wife, I say that I am dedicating the book to my wife, without whose wanderlust this book book about another woman who couldn't stay home would never have been read,

that is it gave me an opportunity, I anticipated that it would give me an opportunity to do a great deal of traveling around the world, particularly to India, but my investigations also took me to England and Germany where I spent six months back in 1954 and then to India where I spent about a year in 56 and 57. Well, first of all, I think we ought to look at this title, I think it's a wonderful title, the first five lives of Annie Bezzent, how many more does she have, it's inevitable, isn't it? It's inevitable that she will have four more, yes. And that's your next volume. And the next volume will properly be called the last four lives of Annie Bezzent and the two volumes together will become the nine strange lives of Annie Bezzent. She wasn't a cat though. Well, better be careful when they follow that up. Well, now we've got to, if the audience is going to know about Annie Bezzent, we've got to do something with some of these five lives and try to, this

complex, not so complex, perhaps, as this tremendously varied woman, try to pin her down somewhere. You have these five titles of your five lives and I think they're fascinating. The Christian wife, the atheist mother, the miter of science, the socialist labor agitator, and what's the fifth one, the Chila of the Mahatmas? Chila of the Mahatmas. Chila of the Mahatmas. Chila may be the sample. Maybe she'll emerge. She was a 19th century figure. What date was she born? Let's get that. She was born in 1847. 1847. All right, what about the Christian wife? Is she very striking in that capacity or not? She was born into a pretty conservative environment. Born any wood? Any wood. Yes, her family was a respectable family, a pretty well -established family. One of the members of another branch, a cousin, became

Lord Chancellor of England, Lord Hathley. And she had a rather unusual education through Ellen Merriott, the sister of the popular author, Captain Merriott, and then Merriott and English clergyman. No more conventional background in atmosphere than that would have been possible. Are that Merriott and English clergyman helped to make her into the atheist mother? Well, in a way it did, yes, because the marriage was not a happy one. She is very, very frank, especially for a Victorian, as to what discoveries she made as to what marriage entailed. She wasn't prepared as an innocent Victorian young lady for the duties and responsibilities of marriage. In

spite of the fact that her husband was an Anglican curate. Well, how long did they live together? Frank Besson from the town? They remained together for a decade or so, but they eventually separated, as they found that they were incompatible. Why didn't they ever get a divorce? It was impossible in England at that time. Almost impossible, yes, and it was especially difficult for the wife to get the divorce. But certain kinds of evidence had to be furnished, which eventually she attempted to furnish under the suggestion of the master of the roles as George Jesson. George Jesson? Well, it was for the role. But he made a mistake and discovered that the evidence would not be sufficient to give her advice. Well, it was Holy Deadlock. Holy Deadlock, that's right. Now, when she separated from me, she,

after all, had to make her living. He didn't settle very much on her, did he? He had very little to settle. And now she begins to, her capacities begin to flour, right? She becomes independent. She moves from conventional anglicanism to theism. And then she simply adds an article to theism and moves to atheism. What made her do this? Is the contact with people like Brad Law or others that you mentioned? It was, I think, good partly. The contact with Brad Law, partly reaction against the extreme conservatism that she was accustomed to. And partly, the atmosphere of the age, the ferment that was going on in intellectual matters in a lot of parts of the 19th century. Well, she joined the Free Thinkers group there. What was that law's group called? The National Secular Society. National Secular Society. And she went up very fast in that group, incidentally. Extremely fast. She became a nice president. Well, maybe this picture of her will indicate it's hard in

pictures, of course, to show just what a person has that makes it so attractive. But she was a beautiful woman, wasn't she? She was a very attractive woman in her early years. She became older and became associated with some of the labor movements, the strike movements, and so on. She became more masculine. But in her early years, she was a very attractive woman. Yes, and people noticed a number of citations. You know, people come in on her beauty and her personality, which she got up to speak. She just was a naturally born speaker, wasn't she? She was a very tiny woman, but she seemed to have a very resonant voice, which before the days of amplifiers was able to carry to very great distances. And but she found this out almost without any training. She instinctively had it. She tells a story of how she went into the empty church of her husband one day, and

thought she would simply try out her capacity as a speaker. Introducing into her speech is some of her new ideas, which were not at all compatible with, and harmonious with the church where she was trying herself out. Well, when we're incompatible, I read a bottle reading from your opening paragraph, and that is the birth control movement, the molten trial and so on. What was that to briefly? She was the first important woman in the world to come out openly for what we now call birth control. It was partly as a result of her own experiences. She had two children who were taken away from her. One of them, by official state action, because she was unfit to be a mother. And her case, and the case of Shelley, remember Shelley had a similar

experience with his children, helped to focus an interest in this question of women's rights, the rights of wives and mothers, and in birth control. So she was part of the Neal Malthusian movement. And also, the feminist movement is really underlying all of this, too. Yes, the feminist movement comes into it. She was a noted feminist leader, although not quite in the class of the pinkers, but still, she was associated with the pinkers sometimes. You have that story about her earning. Her first earning from her little story, or something she wrote to a magazine, and they paid her 30 showings. And her husband takes it and says, all the money the wife earns belongs to the husband. That's true. That was nothing she could do about it. Of course. No wonder she separated from such a man. But she was, she would be very much alive today in the problem of the population bomb, wouldn't she? Very much so, yes. In fact, she

eventually wrote her own book on the subject about the law of population. And she was one of the first officers of the Malthusian society. Well, then this atheist mother becomes a martyr of science. Now, that's a curious, what do you call it, modulation. She became interested in the new science and studied under Thomas Huxley. She was the only person in England in one year to receive a first class rating in biology. In any case, she was not only a personality, she had brains. She had brains without any question. And she knew languages well too, right? She knew German and French. Especially French. She knew German, but she spoke French very easily. Did she ever learn in Hindustani or not very well? She could carry on normal domestic conversation with the servants, but didn't

carry her knowledge of Hindi. Why don't you go into the study of science? She always wanted to know. She wanted to know everything that she could learn about the universe and how it was made up as well as about human beings. So as a result of her attempt to study science and to take her degree, she was one of the first women in England who determined that she was going to get a university degree. She was turned on. She was flunked by certain extreme conservatives who were so disturbed by her advanced radical and atheistic views that they refused to allow her to proceed to a degree. What do that have to do with science studies? It shouldn't have had anything to do, but it was a matter of fact in one of these science studies that she found a professor who confided to some of his friends that under no

circumstances would he pass her. Another American Association University of the Professor's milkhouse for this. What did she do with the science and learning it? She helped to develop a school under the auspices of the National Secular Society, and there were many science classes given in it. Now here she is a... First, let's go back a bit. Any Besant, any Beesant, any Besant, everything. Why do you pronounce it Besant? Is that right? Besant is the pronunciation that she wanted and it seems to have the most authority, although you probably have heard many people pronouncing it Besant, because her husband's brother was the famous Sir Walter Besant, novelist and archaeologist and historian who received his knighthood and decided that the more aristocratic

pronunciation would be with the accent on the second syllable. There are some amusing doggal rhymes composed by Sir Walter and also by another friend of the family. On this matter, one of the friends of the family wrote to the another brother Albert, tell me is it right or decent to refer to Walter Besant? Should the name be rhymed with crescent? Should it be Sir Walter Besant? Or do Eager Maiden's pant after novels by Besant? Albert, the other brother, preferred the second alternative, as the friend indicated, to call you, but Albert Besant would spoil the past and mar the present. To alter now, I really can't but let Sir Walter be Besant. Sir Walter, crucified later, gladly would I split the weasant

of the ratch who caused me Besant, nor are things a bit more pleasant when fellow creatures call me Besant. If you'd give me what I want, gentle strangers say, that's all. Very nice indeed. So we'll call Annie Besant. She said it rhymed with pleasant. Yes, well that's very nice and she is a pleasant woman. Well let's get on to the fourth phase, which is, I think one of the fullest phases, the first five lives, the other four, of course, have their fullness, but the socialist labor agitator. And this is a connection with Shaw, isn't it, that they got you started? Yes. She had become interested in politics through her association with Charles Bradlaw, who was not only perhaps the leading free thinker, atheist of the time, but also a leader in the radical party. He had been elected to the constituency to a constituency in the north several times, but the

parliament had refused to let him take his seat because he was an atheist. They wouldn't let him take the oath, although he said it didn't, the oath didn't matter to him, and he would take it if they wanted to, but he was not allowed to take his seat. There was even a riot when he tried to take it one time, wasn't there? There was brutality. This was a very celebrated legal case and finally, partly through the influence of Gladstone, the parliament changed views on the subject, and this oath was no longer necessary. Annie became interested in the new socialism and became equated with Bernard Shaw. At first, she was very hostile to all the new socialists and the communists, the extreme socialists, like Heinem and the rest, but through her

acquaintance with Shaw, which I developed at some length in the book, partly on the basis of some new evidence that has recently turned up in Shaw's diary, and she was converted to Fabian socialism. In fact, she was the most prominent figure in the group. That is the figure that was best known. Before Beatrice Webb became well -known. Yes. The socialists regarded her as a great acquisition because she was the kind of public speakers that they needed. She and Shaw really carried the burden of the soapbox oratory that went on in Trafalgar Square and Hyde Park. The bloody Sunday at Trafalgar Square. She played a leading role in so -called bloody Sunday at Trafalgar Square. A kind of equivalent of our Hyde market right here in Chicago. Yes. But she went everywhere, didn't she? The energy of that woman. Was she in good health all the time, or what gave her this energy? It's exhausting to meet her

activities for a week or a month. No, she was not always in good health. There were frequent derids in which she had to rest and she had a rather sensitive throat, too, in spite of the organ voice that people talk about. She did have to retire at times, but she had this determination. She always wanted to get to what she regarded as the bottom of things, you see. And she was continually shifting her viewpoint. That's why she had so many different lives. It seems as if we could almost say that the greater hostility she evens to toward a movement or a point of view for a time. Are you sure you could be here that eventually she would be converted to that movement and would take it over and become one of its leaders? In other words, her resistance was a form of attraction, for sure. It did amount to that. Yes. Well, isn't she a fairly representative character when we look back over the period? The tremendous number of reform who, but you list a tremendous

number here. The single tax, the agricultural reform, contest positivism, spiritualism, theosophyist, anarchism, nihilism and terrorism, communism, democratic federation, and so on and so on. She is in part of that format, that social format, which we had in America in the 1830s and 40s, and Margaret Fuller. I kept thinking of Margaret Fuller, although Margaret Fuller never developed the way Annie did, but there's some of that dry, that force and power, that magnetism. Isn't there, would you say? There's no doubt about that. Everybody felt it to came within range of her. Well, could you say something about this match girl strike? There's women into a union in England. She did so because she became interested in the plight of the girls who made matches. Of course, there were no legal restrictions at the time, as

to the ways that the employers could use their employees. There was no protection. There was great danger in the manufacture of matches and others and so on. The wages were very pitiful, so she became interested in these girls through one of her newspapers and organized the matchmaker's union. Do they success when they strike? They were successful. What do you find historians, especially Annie Besent and some of her associates? One of the real pioneers in the labor movement. Excellent. And she was a friend of the, of course, William Mars and the others in the labor service. Did Shaw interested in this match girl strike? He became interested in it, and in fact, there's one very amusing scene in which he and some of the others of

the Fabians and also other socialist groups helped to distribute the money that had been collected by charity. He was a sort of a paymaster to these girls until their strikes succeeded. Was there this about Shaw and that bloody Sunday at Trafalgar when they were moving from four directions? Is it on Trafalgar Square? They saw the police there and Annie Besent and Shaw were together and Shaw said, you've got to take care of yourself and retreat. She goes on in and is in the midst of it. There's a characteristic of Shaw, isn't it, in a certain sense? This is the only time that Shaw made any attempt to man the barricades. So we say and become a revolutionist in action. But it didn't go very far with him. When he saw the trouble it was being created, he just he's operated. And as he said it in his diary, he decided to go home and have a cup of tea. Well he, in other words, he talked to good action. She

was going to go out and act. That's a one of her charms. Now we come to the fifth life of her nine lives and that's the Chila. What is a Chila and what made her into a Chila? The Chila is a disciple or a student and she became the Chila of the Mahatmas through her conversion to theosophy, through the fantastic Madame Helena P. Blavatsky. That meeting in 1889. In 1889? Yes. How, again, she was resistant to it at first, but not very long. Well this was one of the greatest shocks to the intelligentsia of the time that the intelligentsia suffered because it was such a notable conversion, you see. She had been a leading materialist, a leading

rationalist, a leading free thinker and then she suddenly went over to mysticism and occultism and adopted and accepted everything that previously she had made so much fun of and rejected. Now I think we are trying to see her out to project into the future. The next four lives, your next book, not to take an edge away from it, but she became identified with the Indian nationalist movement, didn't she? She was really responsible for founding this independence movement, the national home rule group, as she called it. Gandhi and Nero and the others, Tillack, came along and more or less followed the path that she had begun to blaze. You talked with Nero about this, didn't you, one time? Yes, I had an interview with Nero and two interviews with Christiana Mennon, the most interesting experiences that

I had perhaps because Christiana Mennon was a theosifist for many years and a leader in any peasants' national home rule group. Nero, in fact, was a theosifist for a time in his youth. They idolize any peasants in India, don't they? Many of them do, you'll find her statue in many places, you'll find her name attached to the different streets and there are good signs, I think, that a revival of interest in her and a mission of the leading role that she played coming about, though she broke with Gandhi, you see, over a method, theoretically she approved of his passive resistance, but when she saw what it resulted in, it resulted in just the opposite, it resulted in bloodshed and arson and wholesale destruction

because the common people, the masses, weren't capable of living up to Gandhi's theoretical views. Well, this makes her a really tremendously important figure, this sort of crowns a career, which we've only sketched so briefly, so I wish we had a couple of hours to carry this on. This remarkable woman, Dr. Nereka, about whom you've written so well, the University of Chicago press book, the first five lives of Annie Besent, and I hope they'll all go out and get the book.