2021 10 17 21 Sasha Issenberg 2; Unknown

welcome back to keep your prisons and j mcintyre today i'm visiting with asa eisenberg he's the author of the engagement america's quarter century struggle over same sex marriage especially you right into some detail about careful and they're frankly inconsistent dance that president bill clinton did over the issue of same sex marriage talk to me about how politicians public or private thinking about this issue and particularly president clinton's thinking sifted and evolved over the years yeah so you know it's a the first one is forced to really do it this is when the defense of marriage act is introduced an end and may of nineteen eighty six and on his op press secretary mike mccurry says for the podium you know it's always been the ones opinion is opposed to same sex marriage and so a lot of time trying to get to the bottom of this because i could never find a place where he had said that he was opposed to same sex marriage

it run for president at ninety two i talked with your date basically every gay activists to interact with them at the time and they asked about a whole bunch of issues and they never asked for his opinion on marriage on it about the questionnaires at the national gay lesbian task force and human rights campaign gave to candidates they asked about a lot of issues including some things that double family law they did not ask about marriage there was one written question error today that reader's digest gave to both bush and click the nineteen eighty two where they asked would you favor a bill to legalize marriages same sex marriage gay marriages in the united states and open so no i would not favor such about to this day there's never been a bill introduced in the united states to legalize gay marriages nationwide and so this shows up and and it's one of the great lie snippet that politicians want us to believe which is the date that their positions are are are serotonin and like you know like

furniture like an ice is just deeply held and i say in the preface the book where your brooklyn or not had and always had an opinion on gay marriage a more than you'd always had an opinion on on you know sending troops to haiti or or whether a bailout the mexican peso side that and and and you know the the line which i think politicians expect that we are believe that we expect the line which where they have these deeply held views and they don't have a good line with physicians a kind of come out of nowhere and force us to deal with them and so when the defense of marriage act comes before it is intrusive congress in may nineteen eighty six the first answer the white house revealed nor the us because we think that this is a bunch of republicans on capitol hill trying to manufacture an issue to distract us from what we wanna run on and force us to commit to something and you maybe this is the same way that like big jen saki looks at when she's at a critical race theory and not in the white house briefing room today like this is crazy this is a narrow hannity and that gates came up with to you know distract us from talking about

infrastructure covert or whatever we want to take the bait so unworkable ten that this is a huge and they tried this for a few days and the press keeps on asking about it and it becomes clear you can't just there's a bill on and so then the question within the white house is ok we need to engage with this and then it's like what happens when we do know and it was assumed that there was no way the court was going out actually veto the senate adopt an arm pike is really terrible politics also because it was unclear that a veto would be overridden with it was a fear that if he says a pen to sign this bill they if republicans are just trying to make life difficult for ham why wouldn't then they start adding more things to the bill that make it hard like ban gay adoption on that basically keep on trying to bid clinton down against his base to see how much they could get out of them and so and the debate in the white house i think has been misunderstood in retrospect because you know this is one of those issues that that you know well activists to have you know a memory of the nineties and yeah some would you think about bill

clinton's often think one of things it showed this welfare reform that show up on the site to listen to meretz against him always signed the defense of marriage act and we you know what if we become lovers veto on that became clear when the house or senate votes came through that you can sustain a veto on but the other thing that they were gaming out was edited something worse could have happened and i think there was accord has been bombed disingenuous in the year since then in explaining what the worst thing a guy said that were hacked constitution and there is no talk about constitutional memo at the time but it was a reasonable fear that republicans might at other sort of anti gay poison pills to this bill and complicate things and so a lot of the dance at west was not about the underlying substance of the bill but was about legislative strategy and that is not something that the white house once a comedic it publicly at the time but has become lost to

history in an what i wanted to you know there still real fear up until the time the house vote on this bill that if republicans have introduced this bill two sir squeeze clinton between his base and says the middle the country and he says he's going to sign that maybe they don't actually want given the chance to sign and take credit for and maybe they got what they're going to get out of him by forcing him to basically you know disappoint his liberal base in gay donors and i'll just walk away from it and it's an orbital auctioneer or powers is going on recess they might be might not even vote on this on and so what i was used to reconstruct the long summer of nineteen ninety six or by looking europe that the deliberations around clinton but also at how you know gay rights lobbyists hands hands on indian muslim staffers in the white house experience the sort of uncertainty about what he was doing on and you know one of the things it did when his right to notice that nobody was harmed by this for a while you know the bill passes the upper part of it which is under federal law couples

or gay couples are married in the state are not be recognized as married for federal purposes doesn't affect anybody until until may two thousand for a massachusetts becomes the first aid to allow same sex couples to marry all the sudden have these couples are marrying in massachusetts on that filed separate tax return as a married people to the federal government you get lawsuits where you know people suffered real harm they can be buried in a veterans cemetery next to their spouse they tried to pass for change in the state department that after marriage to show that they have the same last name as there as there ah ha a new wife in the seat one says no you can change your name to match or wives will see was married right social security benefits not getting survivor special survivor benefits all the sand you want is i wanted to show especially early years was you know we didn't know what we are stumbling into and that seemed at the time like when these serve symbolically momentous issues that came before the president but quite recently the time people like nina says it had any real world talking i want to follow up on something

you've mentioned about particularly on this issue perhaps that people wanted clinton to have a deeply held permanent believes and i'm wondering if to some extent we're just not very good as a culture as a political culture in recognizing that people's views changed that they do do you evolve over time and perhaps no issue more so in in my lifetime ban that's one yet what this remarkable if you look at you know rock obama's speeches in an interview in twenty twelve are you now to change his position got a rob portman in ohio the center of the next year as people feel obliged to explain their evolution on this issue and a deeply personal chance and we don't get that a whole lot you know tom from politicians and so some of the i think the that serve clinton things why is it was the error of like tim russert host meet the press and it was you know we you know say that you support one

point a trade options when they put up on the screen that you know six months ago you said you want and that the worst thing you could be was sort of like i think hypocritical on the substance being consistent and so there was this you know a clean in particular had to do with these charges that he was you know the flip flop it was inconsistent that he was for opportunistic an end in framing his positions are different communities and the services are the slick willy like faint and so i think some of this was at a new you notice and instincts not thought out beaches have to pretend that these things are deeply hold an opportunistic mom but is it is where the issues where politicians had to tell a story to the public when they change later on in part because the underlying issue seems and change right now like these countries will for some reason why my views on on having extracts american troops for afghanistan change or we

saw whether the afghan military was able to secure cobble right like facts change avenue position my view on how big an infrastructure bill you know should be what changes depending on where the revenue is going to come from it so i kept you know like what he's a good marriage is one of the things that you know entitled to define a family on their terms as not something where are kind of political facts change you know religious more older that the basic foundations of this debate and move into people have to explain why their moral universe change often what we saw from from the generation of folks who told a start up as a bomb in portland mozart was that with other kids which is that they did differ generate carbon at a gay son came out i believe when he was in college obama talked about how his daughters had friends whose parents or for same sex couples and their to tell story about how the rich children awakened them to us or expanded there are there moral imagination on this issue at the same time the american public's position

on same sex marriage was evolving and changing talked about the relationship between public opinion and what was happening on the national level and a political theme yes it's the thing that first drew me to this subject is i was where my last book the victory lab and in twenty eleven having a lot of conversations with pollsters are people who measure public opinion in some way or another over over again they would make us recently had never seen attitudes on a single issue move as quickly as they had on on a marriage and that point was like four five percentage points a year only one direction and across a group so you know when a man every racial ethnic group that measure in polls generational yes young people were always more liberal on this older people but they were moving and in the same direction and imperil on inaugural address wage that hack how that happened on at the time on hand surgery at this as a big sign to the ones i serve you dug into the history both the change in public opinion and then this roof activities of chocolate always

elected officials party leaders you see this is really an example of an issue where are politicians are following public opinion almost always not believing it you know the wood becomes clear the obama the obama interview in an in may twenty twelve where he tells robin roberts a bbc that he's evolved on this issue and change his position in the white house and working for about nine months to try to figure out how to scripts that that truth and they knew that they had to explain this in a way that bit come out would be different and then other policy issues all but the reason he got there was he you know that i tell stories of confined to new york in the summer of twenty eleven and i'm andrew cuomo about whom you may have heard was a recently elected governor of new york and one of things he did in his first in a few months in office was signed a bill into law you're totally license or your begin the first lourdes in the country to do it through the political process not initiative the courts and obama comes to new york to do a couple of fundraisers and some other

things and he sees andrew cuomo being celebrated as a hero of the part of the party did you know liberal activists gave faults him out see andrew cuomo as a scud a courageous bold figures taking a leon things and obama gets heckled lgbt theme and fundraiser for the democratic national committee about his position on marriage and it becomes clear he's a ladder within his own party and there's an effort to next on winter put together by this group freedom to marry to try it serves a petition drive to choose a democrat party platform on so for the for the first time a waldorf not the civilians but but but for marriage equality and began a few former dnc chair is to support it in an interview of year ago so was the mayor of la was the honorary chair whenever the conventions as he supported the nancy pelosi do albee wielding the gavel the convention says she supported a party platform plank and all this and basically everybody of

any stature in the party is being asked what your view on this do to close and after joe biden ends up basically getting asked about this in that meet the press interview where he he announces the shift before obama and the obamas forced her to arrive accelerate his timetable but all that is happening because these leaders in the party see it see that they are out of sync with the people that they are the constituencies that they care about some combination of voters donors activists interest groups but it becomes unsustainable and it is very rare in this history going back to tokyo the nation as a whole wide to find an instance of a politician saying they support same sex marriage before it is kind of the safest thing for them to do from the perspective of qana what their key constituencies care about give a sense of what was leading that change not on the political front but within the general population yemen that had the best explanation we have for it is basically people

coming out as is the shorthand you know of the week we know from a whole lot of social science research and research through from political pollsters at it the best predictor of liberal attitudes on a whole bunch of lgbt rights issues not just marriage is how people answer the question often asked like do you know to a friend family worker for freshman phenom a friend coworker family members who's openly gay lesbian for senators asked i think that i saw a ninety two i believe it was on a twenty percent of people said yes on top and we've seen that this ends up being just you know a particular blatter two to ban on the move and not up and stay human heredity inevitable very weekend on on the scientists in our prison with the number of gays and lesbians as a share of the population has basically say now as it was in nineteen eighty two the different offices a lot more people or are are out of the closet and you know as i was working on this book i thought a lot about the analogies to other civil rights causes social movements in the right states and you know

if it's natural or compare this to that the sort of racial equality at the ever saw when he now writes for women on one thing that's really different about this is that people control the circumstances and conditions under which they recognize disclose announce who they are on an end so there is a so it has a profound insight or banal one but you know like they're not a lot of black children being born to white parents are a lot of catholic children being born to jewish parents home there or you know almost by definition a lot of gay kids orchestra parts and there's your human biology ends up being this almost engine of desegregation arm in a way that bit so you know communities people find out they have a gay member or a classmate as gay bomb and so the and it doesn't seem to be sort of in an audit

like just discover that they're the neighbor turns out to be latino right arm or oh my god i'm you know i do know as you're black yeah i didn't want to my dad an immigrant child and i honestly this issue really different way and that's happening all over the country not just with with website for inflation out gender identity right and that is making people here with social science called contact theory but the idea is basically that if you personally encounter somebody it changes your views on the political issues related to them that's a huge engine of that we see that in you know on a lot of a lot of the most high profile instances of republican politicians who were sort of you know leaders within their party had come in favor marriage dick cheney rob portman arrival paul singer a hedge fund investor becomes a large donor this cost down the lines for romney style republican on on on every issue except for all the bt issues because his son came out around his college years and in all um ah paul singer one the largest republican donors in the

country decides it he's now highly invested in an on getting you know getting these kids the same believed to be marion star family that he had on hand what we find is not just him but the novel wench a certain circle of other wall street donors or friendly with them now they know somebody who cares a lot about gay marriage and dispersal for them to arm and that really changes the dynamics in new york at the changing dynamics of ashley's one one one reason that republican politicians i think we're relatively quiet about some of the supreme court cases was that even if they thought that their voters didn't necessarily agree with the court today at large donors again and that is i think you know an engine of love of this this transformation that you know you go into a cycle where some changes in culture pop culture make people feel comfortable coming out people around them work as a summons gay it becomes a sort of more inviting environment for other people to come out in a particular virtuous

cycle of of tom ahn and that's i think how you get this note just remarkable acceleration of a lot of public opinion on the issue and is in the sasha eisenberg is the author of the gate and america's quarter century struggle over same sex marriage at the same time this struggle is going on there are real push is to change things with in the military and as well as fights for employment protections for gay workers how did that fit in this hole the struggle for same sex marriage yesterday in twenty five years ago this month here born september twenty twenty twenty one now and september nineteen ninety six defines america comes up for a vote in the senate and got through a whole lot of very clever legislative scheming ted kennedy basically get to travel a lot to agree they have a

simultaneous more un employment nondiscrimination act and disability been introduced on by democrats that they thought was the sort of most get a ball civil rights protections for gays lesbians in the mid nineties which would write just into the employment part of of the civil basis of our write code that such orientation would be treated the same way as race and sex religion you see these two votes on defense of marriage act passed as eighty five to fourteen on the majority not of the senate as a republican majority democrats were against it as a win for it on and then you have heard this really unusual for all simultaneously on another gay rights issue the employment nondiscrimination act becomes one vote short arm otto korea's as vice president waiting to break a tie david abbott did a prior was a center from from arkansas who was giving every indication he will vote for his stock in little rock at his son's hospital bed on hand to hold the vote then to try to see if you can get him back and is this

really dramatic moment that for many gay rights activist overshadows their own you know this incredibly lopsided a fee on doma which they knew what is still going to get fourteen votes on something as significant right arm and but they've been closely ever had before passing gay rights bill through the senate and take and he says what is a tuesday broken up about the story will will be back another day if you had told anybody in that room in nineteen ninety six that we'll be here twenty five years later and the senate has yet to icann devoted democrat controlled senate for equality act which is the kind of success are built it and our butts on gay marriage a ba they are largely uncontroversial part of american wife alma mater by the supreme court all fifty states and they would have thought you were crazy because that's not what the natural sequence of events is supposed to be and some part of that

story i think is gay marriage legalizing did not meet congress' answer for folks on the left to are incredibly frustrated by the pathologies of love of congress now on they got there through state courts and federal courts hands on ballot measures friendly state legislature that they do not need congress to act but you know to god to succeed in writing sex orientation or gender identity into the civil rights act sixty four you need a course a presidential signature and that you know i think i would stagger people i think you know you mentioned the military to anyone of things it's it's i think the two big breakthroughs in international politics of the last generation on one marriage in the military in and i think what's surprising is not necessarily how difficulty to those war but that they're really conservative finance writer matt it's hard to think of two institutions in

american life that are more conservative than marriage in the military that bomb arguably you demand more of people and sacrificed and they give back unlike obvious material rewards come home my wife is listening to that to this description of marriage from bodily um you know it's also worth noting that by the nineteen nineties these are two institutions that basically straight people or not like clever to be part of it in the way they once had on what they ate it does show the sort of you know the fundamental conservatism of the gay rights movement gay rights movement successes and i would i think you know it was easier to do was less opposition opposition to both of those things which seemed a time so strong disintegrated much more quickly and i think part of it was that there wasn't really a scarce resource at stake you know the beat we often look back at you look back at through the great social changes in and the

eyes as we often think of him as the surf contest over a public values justice equality liberty freedom fairness and to be sure on that's a huge part of it but also to get off a look back at actor civil rights cause a social justice movement and see them is as contests for scarce resources right so when women wanted property rights husbands and fathers saw that can accurately as a threat to their wealth you win in an african americans getting the vote was a threat to the political power of white men you know greater acceptance of immigrants was seen as a noun as a threat too jobs and economic opportunity for for for for native born people from out of action is you know fundamentally about that about a contest for spaces in schools and jobs you know but desegregation orders were telling people who felt like they owned a stake in their community and institutions in neighborhood schools they were going to

change in that the americans with disabilities act you know was telling landlords and developers enough to devote some your budget are things you don't want a forty four what's really distinctive about marriage why is that there is not a scarce resource at stake and what is it's really remarkable when you think about girl brickell decision in twenty fifteen his appointees sweeping civil rights breakthroughs but the implementation is really easy and there was nobody like to give anything up or change their lives to accommodate this expanded civil rights regime i've been fishing with us eisenberg his father of the engagement america's quarter century struggle over same sex marriage fast and this has been delightful talking to you i really enjoyed it thank you i'm kate mcintyre k pr prisons is a production of kansas public radio at the university of kansas