Community Development in Small Towns

Although a lot of growth and expression is going on in North Carolina, many small towns and communities are struggling to provide basic services for citizens. I'm Femmental Henderson. Can all of North Carolina's people share in the economic prosperity and quality of life enjoyed by residents of some larger cities? South Carolina Department of Natural Resources and Community Development Secretary James Somers addresses that question along with Rick Carlisle, Director of the Division of Community Assistance. Can a department that combines natural resources and community development deal with either effectively, Secretary Somers? We perhaps are unique in the United States with this combination and I'm sure there are people within North Carolina who feel that perhaps the needs of our citizens would be better addressed if we were separated. If, for example, we had one department with just trickling natural resources and the other with community development.

But I don't believe you would find hardly anybody who is associated within RCD that would feel that way. We're convinced that it serves the needs of our citizens when both of those concepts are united and are brought together. The Governor Hunt felt that way very strongly at the beginning of his first term and we came into existence as a department combining natural sources and community development and our whole concept is you just are not balanced if you have one at the expense of the other or one without the other. We feel that we've got to protect our natural sources, our air and our water. And at the same time, we also feel that it's just vitally important for our communities to have support and encouragement to grow, to grow in the right way. So we think that it's in the best interest of North Carolina to have it just like it is. Well, this state certainly is one of hundreds of small towns and many of them are experiencing some problems. Just how do you encourage them to tackle the different things that may arise? We have a variety of programs addressed primarily to small rural areas, the small towns of North

Carolina. It's certainly the way it should be. North Carolina is either the first or second most rural state in the whole country. We're 10th in population and yet at the same time we are basically a state of small towns and rural areas, whether you're talking communities or whether you're talking counties. And we are under that realization all the time. The community development block grant program that Rick Carlisle and his staff administer and on department is a perfect example of that. And we've been administering that program now since 1982. And we are so proud of the fact that our funding of communities with less than 2,500 people is up 300% over any funding that the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development ever funded for North Carolina. So we are real pleased with the fact not only are these small communities and small counties applying for these community development block grants, but they are being awarded.

And the guidelines and the waiting and the scoring system that we have obviously does the job so that we are getting those dollars out there into those rural communities. Well Rick, this community development block grant, what is that whole thing and how does it work? How do you get your hands on it? Okay, this is basically federal dollars that we administer. The federal government ran a program into 1981 when they gave us an opportunity to take it over. We did that because we thought in combination with local governments we could design a program that would work for North Carolina and that's exactly what we did. We spent months really consulting with the League of Cities, Associates and County Commissioners, various local people designed a program that was tailored to the needs of our state. We started that in 1982 and since then we've distributed $130 million for a community development needs in North Carolina. And as Secretary Summers said, most of that goes to small towns and unincorporated areas. I do want to point out, however, that as much as we do and as proud as we are of it, the needs far outweigh what we can do.

Each year we get about $4 in requests for every dollar we can grant. So it has been quite a bit of time trying to develop a funding system that directs funds to where it needs your greatest and where projects are well designed to meet those needs. I've heard a number of complaints from going out sometimes we do get beyond this little hub that we live in and some of the smaller towns that I've visited and some of the people I've interviewed have expressed concerns about things like not having public swimming pools or not having a new hospital or some other kind of facility. How do you help them go about getting those kinds of things? In terms of community development program, we can do quite a few things, but just point out a couple of my may, I guess over the past three years we've spent money to rehabilitate over 5,000 houses in the state and provide or retain approximately 5,000 jobs. It's spent a lot of money to water, sewer, street paving and so on. There are other areas however that this program doesn't work quite as well for. We do have another program where we try to work with communities on a variety of needs. We have a local planning program.

We have seven regional offices across the state. We have planners in those communities and we work with about 300 different communities a year in a variety of areas from planning to for any problem they have trying to find ways to resolve that problem and if there's a way to resolve it we will certainly try to find it. Are they all aware of you and have easy access or do you have the sort of go out there and let them all know what's available? I think most of them are aware, but we just to make certain every year or two we try to go out and do a new marketing program. We mail out brochures and we get each of our chief planners who heads up the office in each area to go out and visit the mayors and county commissioners in their area. We try to make our services known and we certainly want them used. Well, are there other sources of funding other than the federal dollars that help communities to do help them sort of maybe think of ways on their own to get cash in or do they look to state agencies as well? Is there a bigger pie I guess it's the question. There are a variety of funding sources around the state, but I think what we try to work

with communities to do really is to look at what their problems are, define them and then come up with ways in which they can be addressed and I think clearly looking to a grant or outside is not always the way, it can be a way, but I think the big thing to be done is to really think through the problems and then work in cooperative effort. Sometimes it may be local effort, sometimes it may be with the state, sometimes it may be local state and federal and we shouldn't forget the private sector which does quite a bit in this area. But again, we don't try to say we don't want to be a grant agency, we want to be an agency that helps identify problems and helps find solutions. What does the private sector do this isn't key? I want to maybe talk just for a moment about another program we run with the private sector plays a large role and that's the Main Street program, it's been one of the programs where we have really tried to strengthen our role of the private sector and perhaps then bring to other programs we operate. Through the Main Street program, we work with small cities and downtown revitalization, downtown redevelopment.

We find it be a very popular program and it's really based upon state and local cooperation and local and private sector cooperation and what we've seen is that it really pays off in downtown development and I think the Secretary here has a specialist in that program and I'd like for him to say a few words about it. We are very excited about that program. North Carolina was one of six states that was selected under the National Historic Trust Foundation to serve as a pilot state in this area. The whole thrust of the program is to meet, very frankly, the challenge in the threat of shopping centers that in many cases have literally destroyed a downtown area and the program is built upon the concept that if you get people excited, you get the various forces within a community to come together with support in this case from the state of North Carolina that you can rehabilitate those storefronts, you can bring excitement and optimism back into downtown.

Now we just recently selected five new Main Street cities in North Carolina and incidentally the only way a city can take part in this program is to have less than 50,000 people and that meant 15 different cities that have taken part or are taking part in the program now and those last five were Goldsboro, Kensden, Reedsville, Sanford and Wageboro and we visited two weeks ago during a two day period, each one of those cities and walked the main streets and talked with the mayors and the members of those city councils and the chambers of commerce and you have never in your life seen more enthusiasm for a program and those people are determined to make it work and the good news is we had worked previously with 10 other cities and without exception there has not been a failure. All of those cities are succeeded in creating new jobs, creating additional investment. For example, so far we've got documented that with our Main Street program which began

in 1981 with initially with five cities, we've created 905 new jobs, 291 new businesses and investments in downtown in addition over $65 million that have been leveraged with 204 storefronts and 131 buildings being renovated and that investment really has been practically little or no investment on the part of the state but it's just a question of getting the right combination of factors together as Rick says it's been extremely dependent upon the private sector but also the support of local government, the local chambers of commerce and local citizens with their input and their support but that is an excellent program and we're just grateful that North Carolina was one of the first states selected and that we are so far in the way we hope to bring in five new cities a year. A city will come in and stay part of that program for two years and then phase out and make

room for five more cities coming in so we are excited about it and we probably at the risk of sounding rather modest to have about the best Main Street program in the United States. Well, downtown revitalization is something I hear everywhere go, big towns, small towns everywhere and one of the concerns in small towns is that it may help to stabilize the population that the young people particularly pack up and leave when they get up high school because there are rather limited opportunities to sat in any way or interact with what you're doing. We feel that the Main Street program goes far beyond Main Street with its impact. We have seen case after case where when the community gets excited about revitalizing Main Street, it has a way of carrying over and encouraging the formation of new businesses to attract business to come in and you have a real upsurge of economic activity in those communities.

You know, the thing that can hurt a community I think more than anything else is apathy and people just deciding that there's just not much to look forward to but when excitement is created and people begin to have some successes and then those successes breed more successes and you honestly and truly can see a whole new economic area of opportunity opening up in these Main Street cities and that includes obviously more economic opportunity for young people as they become ready to get jobs and move into that job market. I noticed a challenge to mention the Goldsboro, Kingston, Readsville, Santerton to be in the Eastern part of the state. I've heard some discussion on the fact that the East and the West tend to be sort of isolated and all the riches ended up in the Piedmont was that a purposefully chosen that you had those five Eastern type towns? We had at this particular time 12 cities to apply to become Main Street cities and we selected the five that we felt had the most promise and the main criteria in that selection

was that there be a strong evidence of support for the concept including local government, the county government, the Chamber of Commerce and other groups that we know if it's not present that you cannot be successful but it is true that many of those towns and of the other town have been located in the Eastern part of North Carolina. We have quite a few in the Piedmont. We are hoping that we will have more interest shown on the part of some of the communities in the very westernmost part of our state. We think that that's where we need that Main Street program and we are going to do what we can maybe to encourage some of those communities to apply in our next year. Do those people feel isolated? I've heard some talk about, well in times I've been there in fact there are news and a lot of things tends to come from Tennessee or South Carolina, you know I get the feeling I'm not really in North Carolina anymore sometimes when I'm out there.

We feel that that is something that we try to work with all the time. I guess being as far away for example from the state capital as they are there has to be a special effort made to make them feel part of the Main Street of North Carolina. We have a regional office, one of the seven that Rick referred to in Asheville and we know that the members of that staff are continually reaching out all the way to the Tennessee and to the Virginia line. If someone feels that they are isolated it's not because we are not conscious of that danger and we are trying to work within that framework all the time. Well you mentioned this economic growth and spring in a new industry that is something we often think of as belonging to the Department of Commerce is a great deal of interaction among state agencies in this area. We like to feel that there is. We are in this department I know that we are convinced that the way to make progress is through cooperation. We work as closely as we can with other agencies and that happens every day I mean it's

not just a once in a while thing. We also feel that one of the most significant roles that we can perform is to divide strategy on a statewide basis whether we are talking community revitalization or economic development and then to work with a working relationship with local government to make it happen. What kinds of things are these people down there say to you when you are in Canada? What comes from the bottom of so to speak? Well we have never found a single community or town that got a grant that was big enough. They would all like it to be a little larger and the state share to be a little greater. But we feel that we got good local government out across North Carolina and we feel that it is a productive working relationship. And keeping up with all the news and things that do come on TV as it happens I saw stirring that very long about a community, how these rings I believe was, there is no running water in these communities and the people who are complaining and wondering what could

be done. How much of a problem is this and are you in any way involved with that kind of thing? I think the need for funding to assist in water and in sanitary sewer across the state is certainly great. I mean a lot has been done through various programs in the last few years but with so many small communities there are problems that remain and when you mentioned how these rings I am pleased that we were able to help and we announced grant awards this past August for the third year and one of those did go to Holly Springs will be participating in rehabilitating housing, sanitary sewer and helping to resolve the water problem in the area. I also want to point out I had said earlier how competitive this program was this was either I believe the second or the third time that Holly Springs had applied to us. Each year we do try to go out with communities which were unsuccessful, work with them, talk to them, see how we can help them improve their application so they can come in again. Each year about 20% of our money does go toward public facilities such as recreation areas, water and sewer, paving of dirt streets and so on.

Again principally low income areas which is where we work but I wish we had two or three times amount of money we have. Does the community have to be incorporated to qualify? For a city to apply it has to be incorporated. Cities can apply however on behalf of unincorporated areas in the county to mention another example resumably nearby the Wilson's Mills community which is near here received a grant this year and I think nearly every citizen of that community wrote in in support of that. We look at really the objective factors but just on the side it's nice to see that kind of local support for projects so we do try to design the program so we can reach out statewide again the only limit being the amount of money we have. Substandard housing is something that's discussed in far out corners. How much do you do and what kinds of things you don't go and build new neighborhoods do? No we try to go around again principally low income neighborhoods and fix up housing which while substandard that is run down some problem is still usable.

With the cost of new construction today I think we need to try to preserve the existing housing stock whenever we can. Over the past three years the programs I mentioned we've rehabilitated about 5,000 houses. Put that in perspective though right now there are about 160,000 substandard houses in North Carolina so we could spend this amount of money for 80 years and still not fully addressed the problem so we make a substantial contribution but there's clearly a lot we need to do. Well in the face of what maybe continued budget cuts in the federal government what do you do when you have all these great needs? You know it's I think it's real interesting that for the last three years the administration in Washington under the president have eliminated or either eliminated or drastically cut back on community development block grant funds for example in Congress and its wisdom has put it back in so it is a program that we feel the results have just been outstanding

and we think certainly in North Carolina that you could look at how those funds have been used and how the funds have generated other investment has just been outstanding. We know that as Rick said a minute ago the program is just a highly competitive last time we had I think 139 communities, 139 was that correct number and we actually were able only to fund about 39 of those so it just gives you an idea about how stiff the competition but it also would say that those communities that are funded really have tremendous needs and they've got a means to translate those dollars into meaningful programs for our people. As Rick said a moment ago the funds are not sufficient to meet all the need but it's far better to do what we can we think in a very effective way to help people in those areas that obviously need help.

You mentioned a moment ago for example where there are no swimming pools and no recreation facilities on our community development side of our department we also administer the Land Water Conservation Fund which is about $1.8 million and that money is used for recreation projects either in a county or in a community. Mostly swimming pools, parks and local recreational facilities this last year there were 36 grants that were made to those local governments and in each case the grant is for a certain amount to do a project and then local funds are used to match that grant so it also has a local investment to it. But tremendously effective in developing recreational facilities all across North Carolina. I think I heard that for every dollar you expend $4 a request is there any kind of formula to justify having spent that one does the community have to generate so much of its own

in return after you invest in it. One of the criteria that Rick and his people are looking at very carefully when they make a determination under the guidelines that they have about which community is going to get funded very honestly they look very closely at what the financial commitment is on the part of local government and there's nothing that says that a local government has to put funds into a project but if you look at the ones that are funded and the ones that are not if a local government says that they just want nothing but state dollars by state dollars I mean those that initially come from the federal government that are administered by the state without putting any local funds with it then they don't get points for that and it definitely has a weakening effect upon their application. So if a community feels very strongly that something is worthwhile whether it's rehabilitating houses or putting in water, sewer lines then we feel that an evidence of that and a proof of it is that they are willing to commit some of their own funds and this does strengthen

an application. Well I would imagine the needs the people across the state could be, could be legion. What would you imagine be the greatest need or the things that need the most attention to improve the quality of life for most of North Carolina citizens? Say we really feel that probably one of the greatest needs is the implementation of adequate water and sewer facilities and that may sound like it's strictly a health issue. It is a very important health issue but it goes beyond that. It goes toward economic development. There's no way that industry can develop in an area unless there is adequate water and sewer facility. So we see that as a very very key need. If we think it's fundamental not only to human health but we think it's fundamental to certainly a vital and growing economy for an area. Now you talk about putting in new systems or places where they're deteriorating and need to be upgraded. We've got both.

In many cases they have been in place for a long time and are definitely in need of repair and replacement but we have an amazing number of areas across North Carolina right now that still do not have the facilities period. You've got 147 communities in North Carolina now that of what we refer to as being under moratorium because their waste treatment systems are not able to meet the discharge requirements that have put upon them. We can't shut down a town for example when they don't meet those requirements but we can say to them that you can't increase anything on to that system until you upgrade it. And we stand ready on the natural resource side working also with community development funds to help communities do this but it does require a local commitment to action and a very definite plan that's worked out to achieve these good results. Now I'm aware at one point I was in Henderson and they were under one of those kinds of moratoriums and they were crying about down to our revitalization and all those kinds

of things and expanding the tax base. How long would a community be under such a moratorium? In many cases it can last for years and the burden really is upon the community to come up with a plan and the state stands ready and able to try to be supportive in many cases to help with what we call a 401 grant construction grant program that we administer in our division of environmental management to help create and rehabilitate and upgrade waste treatment facilities. And I think what we're saying here is a fact that it's not a simple approach and we'd like to feel that we're looking at the needs of people in a very comprehensive way for the state and the North Carolina and we also convince that we're not devoting an undue amount of resources into metropolitan areas that we are continually aware of the fact that we primarily are rural state and we're just absolutely determined that all of the things that we do are addressed in a very practical and is cost effective way as we possibly

can to meet those needs of our people. Why should it be important to citizens in the Triangle or the Triad or the Charlotte Mecklenburg area what happens out there in hinterlands so to speak? I think that's a good question. We feel that North Carolina under Governor Hunt has embraced a policy of balanced growth and that just says that if you're a citizen of our state we're concerned that needs be met and Governor Hunt has made a strong effort to for example to bring economic development and economic opportunity all across our state whether we're talking in Northeastern North Carolina or whether we're talking up in the mountains up in the western part of our state and there's a certain fairness about that and it's a certain desire to want to meet the needs of all of our citizens. The Charlottes, the Greensburrs, the Raleas, the Winston-Salem's are moving in a very vigorous way and we know that and those resources that are able to be generated within that framework in many cases are going a long way to meet the needs of people but then you've

got other rural communities out there where the needs can be sometimes even greater that we want to make sure that the state is trying to deal effectively with those needs. How much improvement can they expect? We feel that a great deal depends upon the thrust of an administration and being part of this administration has been I know personally from my standpoint has been a real pleasure because I'm totally convinced that we have a governor who deeply cares about the welfare of people and trying to make lives better and opportunities better for our people and I think as long as we continue to have that kind of leadership and the leadership that we have in the General Assembly which I think has expressed a very deep conscience in this area we're going to see things continue to happen. The General Assembly in the short session for example devoted a million dollars over the community services block grant program to try to undergird the efforts there with

community services block grants that are being administered in one of our divisions also in the community development side. It takes a combination but I think the thing it takes more than anything else is number one the awareness of what that need is and number two a determination to try to use the resources as wisely as possible to try to meet those needs. Help is available to towns in the form of money for facilities or advice on packaging and selling the town to possible investors but who gets what and is there enough answers to these questions are multifaceted but in our CD community assistance division there is at least the beginning. I'm Fay Mitchell Henderson for WUNC.