Kansas Filmmaker Kevin Willmott & The BlacKkKlansman

The true story of an African-American policeman who goes undercover and infiltrates the Ku Klux Clan. I'm Kay McIntyre, and today on KPR presents, Kevin Wilmot's latest film, The Black Clansman, directed by Spike Lee and out in theaters this week. Kevin, it's great to see you again. Great to you, Kay. Always good. The Black Clansman is based on the true story of Ron Stallworth, the first black policeman in Colorado Springs, take us back to 1979 and his incredible story. Well he's kind of an average kind of Joe, you know, nice guy, young, very young, you know, relatively conservative in terms of what was going on in the 70s. And he sees an ad for, you know, a policeman in Colorado Springs, and so he applies and he, they hire him and he's the first black guy there. And the police department's a little, you know, it's, you know, there's a reason why they hadn't been in some black guys there before.

And so he, you know, they, he knew he was going to have to walk into some things. And, and quickly they, he kind of goes undercover and they put him in the undercover thing. And his job was really to monitor all the radical groups in the area. And you know, this is a 70. So there's a lot of radical groups going on. And so he's looking at a newspaper and he sees an ad for the client, you know, it's like, you know, looking for members KKK called this number. And so because he's young and you know, he's a rookie, you know, he just kind of calls the number, uses his real name Ron Stallworth and they fall in love with him over the phone. And eventually they say, man, you got to come and join. And of course, that's a problem. There's a problem there. So, so they end up kind of creating a two Ron Stallworths, you know, the real Ron Stallworth, the black Ron Stallworth. And then they create a white Ron Stallworth that will go infiltrate the clan. So, so black Ron Stallworth on the phone, continuing his relationship on the phone with

the clan. And then white Ron Stallworth, who infiltrates in our film, he's actually Jewish as well. So it complicates things even more. I'm assuming that there's some irony here that he's asked to infiltrate these radical groups. But I'm guessing that they were assuming that he was supposed to be infiltrating like student radicals and protests on campuses and not the KKK's clan. Yeah. And in fact, his first assignment is, is they they have him kind of go to a meeting with Stoke McCarmico. And he finds out he's changed into Kwame Ture. And so that was kind of, you know, kind of what they thought he would be doing. And then he gets into this clan thing and it kind of opens up some, some big areas. The movie The Black Clansman is based on Ron Stallworth's 2014 memoir. What were some of the challenges of bringing his story to the big screen? Well, there's a lot of great stuff in the book.

I mean, Ron's story is, I mean, it's, you know, it's too crazy to be true kind of thing. And so we, we pulled all that stuff out. And then what Spike and I usually do is we go back and we research kind of what was going on during the period as well. And so that's what we learned that Kwame Ture, you know, he changed his name to Kwame Ture, Stoke McCarmico had at that time. And you know, so you just kind of, you try to look for all the really good stuff that's happening in that whole world at that time and to pull from. And then of course, you know, you always have to make a few things up because it's a movie. But there was a lot of great stuff there. And so that gave us, you know, a nice kind of signpost that we could follow. Were you familiar with his story before? You know, I, I think I had heard about it. I think I had seen the book around or something. I kind of, I think I'd read something about it, but I didn't know the specifics about it. It occurs to me that unlike some of your other movies like CSA Confederate States of America, which is satirical, but, but purely fictitious or a documentary like your recent

film about William L. and White, this story has, it's got its fictitious moments because it's a film, but it's based on a true story. Does that pose its own set of challenges? Well, you know, I tell you, I think in narrative film and you really have to make a lot of stuff up and, and, but you know, you, you make it up based in the reality of what the story really offered you. So in that sense, it's, it's not like, you know, you just, you know, arbitrarily pulling things from anywhere, you know, it's the, you follow the controlling idea of the film. And the controlling idea of the film is that there are two Ron Stahlworths and, and, and, and they're infiltrating this clan and, and so the two Ron Stahlworths, you know, was a really interesting thing to kind of explore and kind of, we kind of expanded that concept in the film some and, and as well, Spike said from very beginning, he didn't want it to be a period piece.

So he wanted it to be very contemporary and so we were always looking for things that really linked it to today in various ways and, unfortunately, we, we found a lot of those. The film The Black Clansman opens in theaters on August 10th. Tell me about the significance of that date. Well, Spike wanted to connect to the Charlottesville, you know, the incident there, where Heather Hire was, was killed. And you know, we connected in the film as well. I don't want to give anything away, but there's a connection to the film as well. And it just lets you know that, that these groups are, are still around. And they have support now from the White House in various ways. And they're finding their voice again. I mean, there's, there's kind of been several clans in the country, you know, the one that started after the birth of a nation and the one that started before that with, after the Civil War and, and you could argue that there's kind of a new rebirth now going on.

And so I think the film is a great, you know, it really works in addressing that issue. Kevin Wilmot is my guest today for KPR Presents. We're talking about his latest film, The Black Clansman Directed by Spike Lee. Kevin, we've got a couple of clips from The Black Clansman. Can you set this first one up for me? Yeah. So the clip, what's happening in the film at that moment is that the investigation has started and flip the Jewish white cop who is the, is the white Ron Stahlworth and, and in the real Ron Stahlworth, the black Ron Stahlworth are having this kind of, you know, argument about the investigation and, and flip has just had a gun pulled on him and, and, and it really kind of debating, you know, flip doesn't think that it's worthy of all this danger that they're putting themselves, that he's putting himself in for, for some guys that

are just burning crosses and so forth. And, and one of the issues that the film deals with is, is passing and, and that, that, you know, Ron confronts him, confronts Flip with the fact that he's passing, he's passing as an Anglo-Saxon white Protestant and so that's kind of where the flip, the, the clip deals with. Okay. Let's give that a listen. We're away from pulling the trigger. And he didn't. But he could have. If, and I would have been dead. Or what, I'm not risking my life to prevent some rednecks from letting a couple sticks on fire. This is the job. What's your problem? That's my problem. For you, it's a crusade. For me, it's a job. It's not personal, no should it be. Why haven't you bought into this? Why should I? Because you're Jewish, brother. The so-called chosen people. You've been passing for a wasp. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, Sherry Pie, hot dog, white boy. Hmm, that's what some nice skinned black folks do, they pass for white. Doesn't that hatred you've been here in the clan say?

Doesn't that piss you off? Of course it does. And why are you acting like you ain't got skin in the game, brother? Okay. That's my business. It's our business. I'm going to get you your membership card so you can go to the cross-burning and get in deeper with these guys. Right, partner? So, one of the cool things in the film is that Flip is Jewish and he's kind of buried his Jewish self and the clan is maybe more anti-Semitic than it even is anti-black in a lot of ways and they kill us but they hate Jews, it's kind of a weird deal. And they have a debate about this, you know, Ron confronts Flip about that he's passing and during the course of the film, Flip has to kind of come to terms with this Jewish self that he's had since he was a kid that's kind of fallen away and been buried and

now he's hearing all these anti-Semitic things on a regular basis coming on the mouths of these guys he's investigating and he has to kind of finally confront it. Kevin, there's a lot of buddy-cop movies out there where you have a black cop paired with a white cop. How does black clansmen fit into or challenge that genre? Well, it's not a buddy-cop movie, I mean not even close and I don't think you get a sense of that at all. I mean they're two cops but you know we deal with kind of the emphasis is not on the procedural cop stuff. I mean we have a little bit of that in the film just to kind of move it forward but the emphasis is really on exploring hate and infiltrating hate and kind of you know how how hate you know how it challenges all of us in various ways.

I mean it challenges Ron in certain ways and it challenges Flip in certain ways and it challenges other characters in the film as well and so that's really what the movie is about. I think it's more of an exploration of in this view you need kind of crazy situation that we have in the film. It's an exploration of really kind of how hate works in America. You've set us up perfectly for our second clip. This is one where Flip is at a clan meeting. Let's give that a listen. Today we are privileged to be among white men and white women such as yourselves. Real warriors for the real America, the America that our ancestors fought and died for. A true white American race, the backbone from when's came our great southern heritage. And I want to thank you. I want to thank you so much for never putting your country second.

America first. America first. America first. Kevin tell us about what we've just seen here. Well so what the clip kind of shows is a moment in the film where Flip is initiated into the clan. It's a big ceremony and they're initiating new members into the clan and one of the great things we have in the film is Harry Belafonte. And Harry Belafonte is in the film and for me it was just like a huge thing for me because as a kid he was just a huge idol and inspiration and we intercut that the clan initiation with Harry Belafonte and he is telling the story of a lynching that he saw when he was a young

man. And Harry is 91 now and so I don't want to give too much away but there's an actual lynching that we use in the film that he talks about and it cuts back and forth and it's a very very powerful kind of moment in the film and it lets you know kind of what the stakes really are in all of this and how it functioned in America. In some ways you can even argue how it still functions you know especially after Charles Phil and so anyway it's a really kind of very powerful moment. One of the things that struck me about that clip is David Duke is referring to our white southern heritage and yet this film takes place in Colorado. Yeah the thing that it's important for Americans to remember is that America was founded in the South Virginia you know Carolinas you know that's we're Washington and Jefferson

and all those guys are and it's not it's not founded in New York or Iowa or Kansas or New Jersey I mean it's founded it's founded in the South and that's why slavery was held on to you know after the country was founded because all the founders were all southerners really and they had a southern point of view and so the clan and the Nazis and those groups they go they use that part of the American story to really kind of identify with and so they love the whole southern American kind of heritage thing and they celebrate that that's why the confederate flag is so important to them. It's you know I mean we don't think of Washington and Jefferson as southerners but they are southerners and they had a southern point of view to a large degree and so that's one

of our many kind of complicated things in American life. The black clansman opens August 10th but it's already gotten a tremendous amount of critical acclaim already it premiered at the Cannes Film Festival in May where it was nominated for the Palm Door and it won the Grand Prix Kevin tell me about that experience. Wow let me tell you that was a wing dang doodle you know we had about a 10 minute standing elevation there and and the they just really ate the film up and you know it was very very very moving and I mean I've never experienced anything like that and it was my first time in France my first time at Cannes you know and then to have that response it was just it was pretty overwhelming and you know you feel very fortunate to be part of it. It was just incredibly powerful and and you know it's one of those things that I like

to try to you know try to say that you know I'm from Kansas and I still live in Kansas and I never went to New York or LA to live and and it lets you know you know you know dreams can come true wherever you live and if you just have kind of have to keep working on it. So to me it was they were saying how concerned they were with America. There was a message they were sending with that that that the world knows that America is in trouble right now and and they're very concerned. You know I think of our film as kind of like high noon you know that film was really about McCarthyism you know and and invasion of the body snatches that was about McCarthyism. I mean there's a lot of movies that it used that Brechtian kind of you know it's the movies about this but actually it's about that also you know and and I think our film is kind

of turning into that. Kevin the last time you were at the KPR studios it was to talk about a documentary you had done about William Ellen White the famed editor of the Emporia Gazette. You're here today talking about your latest film of Black Clansman. There's a common thread between those two films the KKK right yeah and and you know it's funny because I think we talked about this a little bit I didn't really can make the connection between the two of them I mean you know the time basis that worked on them were different you know I was working on both of them at the same time occasionally but you know you kind of you know they overlap and all of that and but you know it was it was kind of you know it both fed into each other in a lot of ways and there are things that that I learned from the William Ellen White documentary that are in Black Clansman and you know specifically the American first kind of stuff that that was the the Clans

motto in the 1920s and it's now a new motto for the administration we have now in the country and so you know you could not help but kind of make those connections and we have a little fun with that in the film and and you kind of see you know the thing that white was concerned about and we kind of talk about that in the film one one thing when you know when I worked on the script I was reminded of when I was the president of the student body at Marymount College in the in the 70s and and I got a letter from David Duke and the letter will you know you know he probably was one of those letters they sent everybody you know on you know every student body president gets one of these letters probably in the country and it was a big form letter but it was his organization was the NAWP the National Association for the Mass for the White People and this was when he was making that transition

from the taking the hood off and the sheet and putting on the three-piece suit and becoming a politician and and that's the area we deal with in the film it's that's the transition David Duke is a character in a film played by Tofer Grace and he's a great job of he just really nails David Duke and and and and we're dealing with that transition between from from really where the clan is the the hate group out here using vial ugly kind of speech and all of that to kind of more political talking points and they talk about immigration and for a revaction and crime and taxes and and they're interested in those kind of things and and they wanted to become mainstream and I think you could you could argue now that they have become mainstream that that they've they've introduced their talking points into into regular political into the regular political world though and and that was that was really

a success for for David Duke because he was talking about that when I got that letter many years ago I'm assuming in that letter he's making the assumption that you're white of course of course you know in essence I'm like Ron Stahlward right you know you know and you know you know and he wouldn't he didn't he wouldn't have cared if I was black he just wanted to you know you know the message out that he wanted someone to bring him to campus and put him up and and letting talk and and that's why you can't you know you can't do that. I'm seeing a parallel here that you just touched on with William Ellen White that his concern back in his day they were wearing the hoods but it was also I don't want to say necessarily mainstream but his alarm was that these were businessmen and people that he knew in Emporium throughout Kansas. Very much so I mean you know that's the thing I really love about white is that you know he was prophetic in that sense that he's saying hey you know if you don't you don't

identify this stuff now in a way that we need to identify it this thing will become normalized more and more and more become just an accepted part of of society and that's kind of one of the things we're fighting right now I think. Kevin Wilmot's my guest today on KPR presents we're talking about his latest film The Black Clansman. We have a third clip from the film where Ron meets the president of the Black Student Union. Do you want to set this one up for me? Yeah so this is early in the film and he is undercover and he's undercover to really kind of infiltrate the Black Student Union at a Colorado college and they brought in Stokely Carmichael and he's changed his name to Kwame Torrey at this point and and then and then Ron eventually kind of falls for Patrice who is the president of the student union there and so that's a kind of romantic thing that happens in the film.

Okay let's give that a listen. Have you heard about the Kwame's speaking for? Who? Kwame Torrey. Well actually I haven't. I didn't realize he changed his name. Yes after he moves to Africa he took the names of Kwame Nakuma of Ghana and his mentor's secretary of Guinea to honor the great leaders. That is heavy. Know how we got to Colorado Springs? Yeah yeah the Colorado College Black Student Union invaded him. I can dig it I can dig you. Are you are you part of the Union? I'm the president. Really? I'm talking to the president right now? Yes you are. But I don't sister. Well I bought a ticket. May I skip the line? So I'm talking to the president? There's no kind of line. To the back. You know we really had a lot of fun with Patrice's character because she's kind of based on Angela Davis and Kathleen Cleaver and

those militant kind of strong black women of the movement at that time and you know the whole thing of of calling police pigs back then you know we deal with that a bit and it's a you know it I think it's still very contemporary the whole thing of of you know you can easily kind of you know dismiss the police it's all bad because of the the events that have happened you know where the innocent unarmed people have been killed. The issues at Black Lives Matters they are dealing with but you know we all know that they're a great policeman as well and and and so that struggle we kind of is a part of their their romantic relationship in the film. So there is a romance there? Oh yes I have a little of that. Kevin there's a great scene in the trailer for the black clansman it's only maybe four or five seconds long

Ron stalwart is walking toward the police station I'm guessing maybe it's his first day on the job any pauses for a moment taps his hair this big proud afro right and kind of nods to himself like I look good I've got this right so so back in the days when we were all wearing froze you know you you you had to keep it round I mean the whole you know you you wanted it round I mean if it was if it got lopsided or you know whatever that was always a really bad thing so so you always was patting your fro and so and I and I think that that you know in the film he's kind of patting his fro because it's like I'm gonna go in and shoot my shot here and you know it's kind of where you get your confidence from back in the 70s what's Ron stalwart up to now you know I've got to know him a little bit and he's a great guy I think he's retired now

and I think he's really enjoying this whole ride with his book in the film and many you know he did something really brave and really special and you know he's just just a great man and yet I understand that he didn't talk about his role in this investigation for decades well they kind of told him not to they kind of they kind of wanted to put it away and that's you know that's one of the things that was typical during that period is that you know you would kind of reveal this other side of American life even in police work or other things and and and people would you know the authorities you know leaders political leaders and so forth would just kind of want to put it under the table and hide it and and and so we talked about that in the film a bit but that's that's you know I think that's kind of why he probably didn't and then over the years I think he finally said well I need to I need to talk about this this is something that was really

important in his life and I think you find it you know kind of came came out with it. Kevin in your films you've dealt with racial injustice gun violence you've done biting satire documentaries alternative history how about a light romantic you know I wouldn't I would do that you know I would do that if I had something to say about that you know I mean you know I have I have kind of a romance I've written you know years ago that of course it's got political stuff in it and problems and all that because that's kind of what I do but but you know any any genre you can use to kind of you know express the things that you want to express it just it's just a matter of is the story of to kind of story really provide you the opening to do that and you know romance a romantic comedy could do that I mean the thing about the thing about romantic comedy or any genre I mean you know because like this is I mean there's a lot of humor in the film it's very funny it's

very entertaining but there are no jokes in the movie you know and and that's that's kind of this thing that that that I do more than anything is that my humor has to kind of come out of the ugliness and the seriousness and the drama of of situations and and if I could find a romantic comedy that I could do that I would I would do that Kevin you've had a really busy year with this film and in a series of critically acclaimed film what's next for you well I just wrote a a play that's going to be going up at the codery theater um called uh becoming Martin which is about Martin Luther King when he was uh uh 15 years old and going to more house college and so that opens up in early September and at the codery theater in Kansas City and really looking forward into seeing that I'm just curious because you often have many balls in the air at a time how do you

keep everything straight well you know sometimes you get a little tough uh you know I think um you know you know I kind of kind of keep in separate parts of my head um you know usually I they all don't start at the same time so so that helps a lot you know and um and you know you just you know it's kind of you know you get finished with one and you go right to the other and sometimes you're working on both at the same time occasionally that doesn't happen a lot but occasionally I have to do that um and and and really it's it makes you just a better writer I think I mean you just you keep your pencil sharper and and uh it's it's a little challenging at times and that's kind of always kind of good for you Kevin you teach at the University of Kansas as well as your filmmaking career what do you try to teach your students about doing film through your own work well I think the thing that I say overall more than anything probably is um you know people always talk about

right what you know and that's very true but it's also right what you believe in and uh and you know and that's I mean I I never really kind of totally set out to do that but that's kind of what I've ended up doing really and and uh so you kind of develop a philosophy of theology a point of you um you know through your writing and and it kind of ends up guiding you and kind of directing you and and uh you kind of become known for that you know and I think it's I think it's not a bad thing to become known for some type of writing you know it's like he does this really well you know and most of the opportunities I've gotten in the last few years have kind of come out of just the stuff I was doing because I believed in that I wanted to do that I cared about those things and uh and uh and uh and it ended up kind of paying off I didn't really set out to do that totally but uh but it ended up that way and uh and I don't think that's a bad thing I think I think you

know you you should concentrate on the thing that you do best and maybe that you you care about the most wise words I've been visiting with Lawrence's own Kevin Wilmot his latest film The Black Clansman is out in theaters August 10th and will be part of the Lawrence Free State festival in September Kevin thanks so much for coming in today always great cave thank you we've got more KPR presents coming up right after this from the University of Kansas this is Kansas Public Radio 91 5 Lawrence and 99 5 Manhattan we're online at Kansas Public Radio dot org no matter how you get the news of your day in your car at your office at home on the go your support ensures KPR will always be your place for news about the things that really matter to you whether they happen around the globe or down the street KPR never lets up in our commitment to serve you because you matter

make a difference donate now at Kansas Public Radio dot org support for KPR comes from Cromwell and Byron Metal serving Kansas and Missouri customers since 1982 offering solutions from bold lead and asbestos problems more information at Cromwell solar dot com for the rest of this hour newsman Bob Schiffer on his 60 years in the news business Schiffer worked as reporter and correspondent for CBS news and face the nation he has won almost every award in broadcast journalism including the Walter Cronkite award for excellence in journalism he's also the author of several books his latest is overload finding truth in the day lose of news Schiffer spoke at William L. and White Day at the University of Kansas on April 20th 2017 he was joined on stage by University of Kansas journalism student Jackson

Hurts and now Bob Schiffer you know I when I look back on my career and or whatever it was my life I've been doing this now since I was 20 years old I've gotten a paycheck every week for the last 60 years for doing something connected with journalism including the three years I was in the Air Force where I flew the LSD the large steel desk I was I was the editor of the base newspaper at Travis Air Force Base in California and other journalism related jobs and I would just say this when I look back what were the significant stories I covered I was there at the assassination of President Kennedy I covered Watergate I later went to Vietnam and I moderated three presidential debates those those are the I guess you would put if you're going to put on resume what you've done those were the things I'd put there but what I think of are the things that journalism gave

me an opportunity to to enjoy and one of the most fun things I've done in all the years I've been at CBS News is three weeks ago I think it was on Sunday morning I did an interview with Willie Nelson Willie is 84 years old he does 100 shows a year he's written over a thousand songs he's just put out is a hundred and tenth album just still going strong and I and people ask me this question so I asked Willie I said when are you going to quit when are you going to retire and he said what do I want to quit he said all I do is play golf and play a little music said why wouldn't I want to quit doing either one of those things so it's kind of been my philosophy I Willie's new song in his new album is walk up again today still not dead which I can sort of relate to and that's kind of my my my view of things when I talk to young people about what they want to do journalism

is a very important thing and I hope you'll ask me about that but the other part of it is I can't think of anything that I could have had more fun doing than than get to be a reporter and get to go the places I went and interview and talked to the people I did and that's what I always say to students you know there's a lot of real pressure on young people these days to to make it make a success in other words make money and I tell them don't worry about that part of it pick out something you really like to do and if you get good at it whether it's journalism or something else the success part will take care of itself and the other part that I try to stress to them is at your age you can start out in one direction and if it doesn't work out you can always change and try something else I mean when you need to start worrying about time and changes when you get to be my age but to these students here at the school like you Jackson

the sun in your sky is way over here the sun in my sky is way over here what you don't want to do is when the sun and your sky is over here say you know I really wish I had to try doing that what I really had a dream about but I thought I couldn't do it but you know I might have could have done it if I did just tried so I really urge young people don't be afraid to stretch don't be afraid to follow your dream and most of all don't let anyone tell talk you out of your dream and there are always people who will there's still people who tell me I can't do something and those people I used to think I had to get even with them then I realized now they're not worth that you just don't think about them think about the people who encouraged you along the way those are your real friends and those are the people you want to remember and that kind of brings me to a you knew Walter Concrete and he was a mentor of yours he

start suddenly once does that is that mentorship continue in newsrooms and the media markets today of you know taking the side of a young journalist and kind of showing them the ropes it does if you look for it and there are people who want to help but the great thing about Walter was what it didn't go around telling people how to do their jobs he just did his job and he said such a good example Walter Concrete was the single most curious person I have ever known and that's why he was such a great editor he could always think of the question that that no one else thought to ask it and I remember one time it was 625 then who goes on his 630 Walter looked up from his copy and said how long is Greenland well who knows how long I'm going who cares how long Greenland is but Walter could always come up with a question that's nobody else thought to ask and and he set such an example he was so enthusiastic about he'd

love the news and he one time we were we were in London and we just fed our pieces at the BBC studios and we were going back to the hotel in a in a police car came around us with a siren and I'd never heard a human being on earth ever say this but Walter knocked on the window of the cab and said follow that car and we did and of course what we got there was just a car wreck in water so well we can't be too careful here just would you mind Bob getting out and checking it out and so I did of course but that's that's what made Walter what he was and people I think that came across people understood that Walter didn't think he was smarter than everybody else but Walter had done his homework and Walter was always trying to find the answers and to me that I mean that's who I wanted to be when I was a young reporter I wanted to be Walter Krunk and I

wanted I still want to be Walter and and I think just doing your job and doing it right and being enthusiastic about it and as I tell these kids show up on time that's also another very important part of it and Walter always did that's that's what that's what young young people without even realizing it that's influencing them because they're observing the other people and those of us who are of an age should always remember that these kids are watching us and they're smart they're less smarter than I was because they they know a lot more because there's a lot more to know and I feel a responsibility to try to help them when I can and I hope I do speaking of a lot more to know the administration today glass campaign we just had a interesting time there yeah how does that covering that how what was that like there you know well this was a campaign that was unlike any campaign that I can remember in my lifetime I mean this was a campaign I've never seen

such an unusual campaign I mean this was a campaign where one candidate Jeb Bush goes out and raises 115 million dollars it had absolutely no impact this was a campaign where Hillary Clinton when asked why she had taken 600 thousand dollars in in speaking fees said well that's what they offered I mean was there nobody to say maybe there are several other ways you could explain that I mean who would say that but it was what but my favorite my favorite moment in this campaign the most unusual part of this campaign was when John Bayne the speaker of the house said that Ted Cruz was a was was Lucifer in the flesh and the devil worshippers society denied it they did you can look it up Google it you'll find it we've never had anything like that we've never had anything like that and a more serious way we're in the midst of this technological revolution this digital

age that is not only just changed the way we get our news but it's it's having a profound impact on our culture I think it's profound as the invention of the printing press I mean I really sincerely believe that and we're right in the middle of it right now you think about the printing press and you know Martin Luther said that the printing press was God's finest extremist gift and it caused the Protestant reformation to happen the counter reformation but we also had 30 years of religious wars before we we society finally reached equilibrium we are not there yet we're in the midst of this thing we don't know how it's going to go finally come out but we know it is had you know it's it's driving newspapers as we used to know them out of business I think paper newspapers will will come to an end in problem maybe in the next 10 years but it is also you know

we're getting more information than we've ever had at any time in the history of the world but are we are we wiser or are we just getting so much information we can't process it I think right now we there's just so much information that we can't process it so it's not all good but it is good there's some great things happening here but there are also some things that you know for one thing now all the nuts can find one another and that that in itself presents certain problems but against that background we had we had had this campaign and and now we have the Trump presidency and I mean I'll just cut to the chase here I think I think what concerns me right now is is the credibility of of the White House and the credibility of of of the office of the president you know this we're we live in very very dangerous times perhaps as dangerous as

it's been since maybe the Cuban Missile Crisis in back in there and when the president of the United States comes on television we want to be able to believe what he tells us and I think that is very important number one for our national security and and also for the reassurance of the American people and I mean when we have this thing like we had the other day where we're talking about sending this armada of naval vessels to the to the shores of North Korea well in the first place the United States Navy has not used the word armada in about 200 years as far as I know and then when we find out that not only were the ships not going to the shores of North Korea but were 3,500 miles away going in the opposite direction and then we hear the White House spokesman come out the next day and say well it actually we didn't mislead

anyone you just had to listen carefully to what we say to me that that poses a certain danger a serious danger and I think I would I would like it if the president could kind of go light on some of these tweets sometimes until he can kind of check it out and see if in fact they're true I mean I thought it was interesting the other day Kellyanne Conway who who coined the phrase alternate truth I believe it was alternate facts alternate facts was saying that the reporting coming out of the White House was not fact-based and I think if you go back and look at the reporting of recent weeks probably the reporting is more fact-based in some of the statements that have been coming from from the president and the president's own spokesman but these these are things that one hopes that they will shake out we all want this president to be successful because we all want the United States of America to be successful but right now there's just such a lack of coordination

and confusion part of that is because at this point only the Secretary of Defense he is the only ranking official at the Pentagon who's now been confirmed it's a general madness the Secretary of Defense is kind of camping out over there by himself he's got the uniform military but he doesn't have any any aids around him and then you go to the State Department and it's even worse where they don't have a military service it's still in place there and they've discharged so many and you have a Secretary of Defense so I think it's very smart and intelligent man but who has not been in government before and and is sometimes seems unfamiliar with the process and I think the president himself charitably one can say he is strikingly unfamiliar with a lot of the processes of how the government operates so I'm hoping all this kind of levels out but right now there seems to be considerable chaos and I don't think that's very good. Many Americans

look to you and other journalists during the election and during this time as you know someone has a voice and they've you said a lot of feelings that they were saying and I'm one of the quotes you said was you know it's a worse election was the worst election of your lifetime and I think it was yeah I still believe yeah I have not ended my remarks but I bring that up because you said he for younger generations kind of become a drinking game that every time that you were a journalist would say that it's a worse election of a lifetime take a shot and you know what I'm here to tell you that luckily we had designated drivers at CBS but as I said it a lot yeah what well like is I felt like I was in the twilight zone and you know Rob Sterling was going to come out any moment and say you're in a different dimension but you just never came out and it just kept kept going but what was it like to be that voice for so many people who they wanted to express how they felt and have these feelings and say these things towards certain candidates towards a well campaign or Trump administration I think I mean the Trump people obviously took great

exception to a lot that we did and even after he was elected we had Mr. Bannon saying it was time for the for the press to sit down and shut up that they were not the opposition party that to me represents a total misunderstanding of the role of the press and let me just the one point I'd like to if you don't remember anything else I say and if you want to disagree with everything I say that's fine too but just remember this the difference between a totalitarian society and a democracy is this in a totalitarian society there is only one source of news one source of information and that is the government you know democracy like ours citizens get independently gathered accurate information and that's what come from the press that they can compare to the government's

version of events and then decide what to do about it and that's what our role is that's what the founders intended for us to do we are there to present an alternative to the government's version of events and then people can say well that's totally wrong or maybe it's half right or the government's entirely right that's fine it's the role of the government to run the government it's the role of the press to ask questions about what the government is doing politicians present a message our role is to question that message and determine if in fact it's true and if it's not to report that I don't know any reporter who thinks that we are some sort of opposition party no one thinks that our role is simply to ask questions and to keep asking questions until we get answers we're not always going to be the most popular person in the room but that is what the

founders intended when they when they invented this wonderful system of government that we had and I think that's what we have to continue to do and you've interviewed President Trump before he was president obviously multiple times I have the first time I interviewed him was about 30 years ago when he and it was a great story the city of New York had spent 11 million dollars and could not get the ice to freeze over in that skating rink in Central Park and Trump who was a young developer came along and said let me have the job I'll get it done and in three months he had the ice frozen and he had people skating in Central Park and it was a great story it was a story about how sometimes you know private enterprise can triumph over over government bureaucracy and all of that and I did that story and he loved that story and I've had different interviews with him over

the years and sometimes he likes me and sometimes he doesn't and I've learned to live with that it's kind of part of what we do but he's generally it depends on what kind of a mood he's in he's he's generally very interesting to interview but he is first and foremost a real estate promoter and I think you just have to and I don't mean that in a disparaging way but you have to remember that he says in all his life he has been saying whatever it took to close the deal and that's not how you can act as president the president's job is to persuade the president the presidency is a place of leadership it's not a place of management the president has to hire the managers to run the place and I think what what President Trump I think what he's having problems with is he has always run his businesses is kind of a mom and pop operation oh no mom and pop on a big scale

but he didn't delegate very much it was all among amongst the family and I think now he's trying to figure out how to put that model in the place to run the government and I'm not sure that model he's going to work but I think that's one of the reason you're seeing so much of this infighting that you're hearing about going on within the administration as to who's going to come out on top I mean maybe I've watched too many Godfather movies but my money's on the family I think in the end they will be his closest advisor and going off Trump here for a second on the administration is there someone that you really would want to interview or a story that you would love to cover yeah I'd like to interview the Pope this Pope I think he's just fascinating and I think it would be a lot of fun to talk to him and you know if I'd like to interview President Trump if he called me up and said come over here I'll give you an interview I'd go over there I mean that's

what reporters do you go find out and the biggest mistake that that young reporters make is that there's sometimes reluctant to ask questions because they think oh if I ask him that question he'll think I'm done the biggest mistakes that I have ever made is when I assumed that I knew what the person I was interviewing was going to say that's that's the second thing that reporters had to do where you never assume you know what the answer you're going to get you may think you have a pretty good idea but you never assume because when you do that's that's when the next person that comes along scoops you and and so I always advise young reporters you know never be afraid to ask because they'll think you're dumb just ask the question and never assume you know what the answer is is going to be well is there a moment that you've been on live TV and something embarrassing

has happened to you or to someone else or a story that you've come across I think I can tell this story and as I'm telling it I'll try to go through it in my head to figure out if I can I'm going to tell this but yes yes there was when the star report came out about Monica Lewinsky and and Bill Clinton and we got a little scoop on it we got we got the report from a congressman and I was up on the hill and we went on live on television in the congressman wouldn't let us have the whole report but he would let us Xerox it in the Xerox machine one page at a time so we set up kind of a little bucket brigade and and these kids would you know pass this thing page by page and they'd pass it to me and Mary Hager who is now the producer of Face the Nation it was quite young in those days and it was working as my producer up on Capitol Hill she was sitting down on the floor and she would just glance at it and then then hand it up to me and so I'm on live

television I mean live dollars and then and I'm reading and they hand me this thing and I looked down at it and I say and then and then Dan Dan was in New York I said and then Dan he unzipped his and then I stopped and I looked up and I said Dan how about letting me look at this for a minute and then I look back and then I looked up and said and then they had sex of a kind now I don't know where this phrase came from I'd never heard it in my life I didn't know where it came from but it just kind of came out of my mouth and because there were there was a certain form of sex that I didn't know if you could say that live on television nobody had ever said it live on television before but anyway that you know that beat some that beat some you talk about me embarrassing and not knowing what to say or do that I think that would probably had to be

but yeah you mentioned really for young journalists you know find a certain style and you know copy that and do you think that currently with the administration with everything going on this you know so many media outlets how do we continue to do that how do we well you know what I think I think we may see renaissance of investigative journalism there's nothing like a really good story to bring out the best in journalism I mean where did Woodward and Bernstein come from you know I mean here's these two kids neither one of them had ever set foot in the White House and in fact this is an interesting little fact that I didn't realize is throughout the entire Watergate story Woodward and Bernstein never once attended a White House briefing they were they were doing the old-fashioned kind of journalism at night waiting to people got home and knocking on the door and asking them questions and it was a good I think it's a good

lesson for us there I mean you know when the White House remember they went through all this stuff well we might not have the briefings and we might have them across the street and my answer was fine have you know have the briefings wherever you want to and we'll send somebody to come from wherever you want to hold them but you're not going to reduce the intensity of our scrutiny by saying we can't come to the White House briefing I mean who cares I mean it might you know yes if if somebody said you can't come to a White House briefing I might say what is second prize I mean that's not on my bucket list I want to tell you know I've been around here for a long time but you know what we have to do is just keep focused on what we do and that is just keep asking questions don't be arrogant about it we have to always remember we should never leave the impression that we're the found of all wisdom or that we're the arbiters of all morality

we're not we're just simply there to ask the people in power why they do what they do and and to give us an explanation so we can explain it to people oh thank you so much this is what you're so welcome and thank you all very much for having me you've just heard CBS Newsman Bob Sheeper along with University of Kansas Journalism student Jackson Kurtz they spoke April 20th 2017 at Woodruff Auditorium at the University of Kansas as part of KU's annual William Allen White Day earlier this hour we heard from filmmaker Kevin Wilmot about his latest movie Black Clansman you can hear that interview again on our website KansasPublicRadio.org I'm Kay McIntyre KPR presents is a production of Kansas Public Radio at the University of Kansas