Biography Hawaiʻi; Koji Ariyoshi; Interview with Franklin Odo 7/30/04 #1

Also, when you record a color bar in the cap, that is 37 minutes, right? And you know why? It's because you see a front end of the capes and the end in the bottom end of the capes, and you distance the capes out there. So, you try to avoid actually choosing the front end. You can see the end of the bottom end, and then you try to avoid the last minute of sort of possible. That's why I'm using the adult indicator. I don't know so much. Okay, anything else? In your introduction to Ensocomonos collection of plays, you cited Kojiyori Osis, essays on the Honolulu record, it's just about the best account possible, or sort of first and second generation, the generation of life, and the content of life. Could you talk a bit about what? We should know about that experience, and what kind of impact you think it probably had,

on shaking the kind of personal Kojiyori, how she ended up being? Well, I guess we have his own account for that, and it's a very moving, I think, personal account. Would we know historically about our coffee plantations, or plantation life in general? Among other things is that it was complex, and it was nuanced and not monolithic. So, you know, it depends on whom you ask and who they are, and what period of time and so on. So in that particular period of time, I think what stands out for me is the degree to which plantation managers and owners could exert a Germany, I guess, control of various kinds on people who were under their control. And the ways in which that could be leveraged. And by the same token, the ways in which that could be contravened. So, like cheating on sending the coffee beans

to the places where they had to be picked up, or hiding them from, you know, the folks who were allegedly in control. Those, I think, are the kinds of things that are really. People were very ingenious about circumventing ways in which the lunas and the managers tried to control their lives. How did education work in all of this? And you had an economy that seemed almost based on people. Can't learning any more than what they already did? You know, I thought about that so much. I think there was a built-in contradiction to this for the school system. I mean, in trying to implement American democracy or democratic capitalism across the country, there was a certain amount of efficacy that was required to try to provide for an educated citizenry to do things like read and write, drive, work the machinery, show up on time, all of those things.

At the same time, you instilled things that could be used by workers against the system or against their employers. So that, I think, has been kind of attention that we still see today. And maybe some of the reasons why it's not so clear that the system really wants folks to be educated in areas where we don't need those kinds of workers anymore. In inner cities, or on reservations, or in poor areas, in rural areas, where we're outsourcing jobs anyway. So in the case of the kids like Koji growing up, my impression is that you really were taking them out of a setting in which there was not a lot of promise if they had stayed out of the system anyway, which would have been illegal in the first place. So they had to go to school. And so they were required to do this. And in the case of Kona, there were some other kinds

of tensions as well, which harvesting the coffee beans, for example, in the fall, which meant that eventually the school system bent its own rules by allowing the kids to have summer vacation during the fall when the families needed them for labor. So there was all kinds of accommodations that were being made. And eventually, I think, for unusual kids like Koji, a lot of the stuff that we like to teach our young people about critical thinking, about really learning how to read between the lines, and so on, began to stick. But for the most part, the education works to, I think, to provide for protecting the status quo. Could you talk a little bit about what sort of plantation or what this kind of labor meant at this time? Because the usual image is, oh, there's one owner, three or four people, and thousands of people working as a field, and their family had an individual farm.

Yes. Did you talk about the 90s? Yeah, and that happened on sugar plantations as well, and pineapple plantations as well, where you had plantations that, or an industrial agricultural system that had niches where it made sense to provide for some space for individual families to do some farming on their own, and which utilized marginal lands, and where they could not be incorporated into large scale agricultural enterprise. And so those people then had somewhat more freedom to try to figure out what to do with their lives. And that was Koji's situation? Yes. And then a lot of the corner people say that, I don't know this in any great detail, but the sense that they were, because they were not heard it around and grouped into gangs, and sent along from one part of the sugar cane plantation

to another, that these folks were pretty much in charge of day-to-day or-to-hour activities on the coffee farm that made it a little bit different and made them more independent. Koji also talks about the kind of maneuvering of races against each other in this dynamic. Could you talk a little bit about that? Sure. I mean, that clearly was the intent. It made sense to try to keep ethnic or nationality groups divided from one another in order to try to prevent labor cohesion. And I guess it worked to a large extent. Even though the workers ate together, worked together on the sugar plantations. And I'm not, you know, because the Japanese immigrants took over much of the coffee industry in Kona fairly early, I don't know what that meant. I do know that having interviewed many of the Nisei,

that a lot of their parents were often had with them already ingrained some elements of Japanese chauvinism. And so I think the plantations did that to work that hard to convince the Japanese that they were superior or different from the other groups. And that, of course, was a reflection of the fact that Japan was a modernizing, militarizing enterprise of its own. And many of the folks I talked to at least said that their parents saw the value, the worth of particular ethnic groups, Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, as directly tied to the power of their homelands. And since their homelands were not particularly powerful in being colonized, and because Japan had resisted that and was able to avoid being directly colonized that the Japanese were in fact superior.

When Koji comes over to Honolulu, and he's probably reading this stuff beforehand, there's already a kind of active press and an active community within the Japanese- and Japanese-American community, of articulating the sand, of providing critique of the overall system, and what can you describe, briefly, what that kind of environment was, the sort of intellectual and public and expert environment? You know, that's an area that hasn't, I think, been well-covered yet. My impression is that the Japanese immigrant press, in the teens, the 20s, the 30s, when Koji would have been growing up, and his family would have been socialized, that what would not, I think, uncovering quite yet, is the degree to which there was this national, the element of seeing Japan, the Japanese-Americans, and the Japanese-American community, and Japanese immigrants, as being somewhat apart

from the rest of the ethnic communities in Hawaii. And although there was this attempt to try to bring people together as workers across national lines, that there was a strong element of, I guess, what we call, Japanese chauvinism. And so most Japanese kids growing up would have had an individual sense of having some sense of empowerment. That might have been different from Korean kids or Filipino kids or Chinese kids, just because the country was militarily powerful. And so that's what would have been reflected in the Japanese sections of the papers. The English sections of the papers from the 20s would have been quite different and reflected more of kind of an American democratic ethos. But either one of those, or maybe both in concert,

might better explain the ability of at least some of the Nisei to escape the clutches of kind of an enduring white oligarchy. You know, a sense that no, you can't impose this highly supremacy on us, because we have all these other things going on, including American democratic principles, and, you know, Japanese military strength and modernization going on across the country, across the sea. So what degree during that period of time, particularly in the 20s and 30s, do those sort of, you know, was the Jeffersonian American ideal in the whole presentation of constitutional freedoms and guarantees? Do what degree is that really informing that community of Nisei that's growing up? I mean, how important is it to what degree

do they sort of tie their allegiance to? That's hard to say. I think for the most idealistic of the kids growing up, who have had access to the most idealistic of the teachers who are going into whether it's Kona or McKinley High School or the rest. And I've heard many Nisei talk about this, that to the extent that they actually absorb the enthusiasm of the teachers from the Rhinekees, for example. Teachers who actually believed what they were taught to preach in the classroom. And were able to convey that to their students. The kids picked up on that. And then they could see that this contradicted the realities of their lives and felt that something was wrong. So I'm sure it fueled some of the motivation for people like Koji. At a certain point, he leaves Hawaii

and gets a scholarship, goes to Georgia. And then ends up on the West Coast working. And we ended up at Pearl Harbor. He ends up in Manzanar. Could you talk a bit about what the experience of a Hawaii-born and raised Nisei would be like or how he might have found things a little bit different than maybe some of the other people. Beginning with the lives of the docs. Well, I think the... It's talk about Georgia first, just a bit. I mean, I think that he describes it very beautifully, I think, by talking about this experience with the sharecroppers and tobacco roll, actually being there and going to... I'll never forget this. And I haven't read his writings

in maybe a decade or two now. But I'll never forget his encounter with this young girl in this sharecroppers cabin and seeing all the little bottles around the ledge and asking why these bottles are there and being told that this is sweet or rice or whatever they're eating to be able to get them and asking the kid, if you could have anything you wanted, what would you want? And her saying, a radio, a radio. And he seemed genuinely like that was something that was one of the kind of turning points in his life that access to the information and to the world was really a critical thing. So when he goes working with the longshoremen, I think, and they, of course, were critical because they were the bearers of news from an international perspective.

What's going on around the world? When newspapers were reporting all of this. So he had access to all kinds of... He knew how important information was. He had access to information. When World War II happened and 9066 and FDR was ordered to implement the eviction notices came and he went to Manzanar. He knew that this stuff was wrong. On the other hand, by then he was either a communist or heavily influenced by communism and Marxism, certainly. And so the whole United Front stuff was a very important part for him. And I remember talking to and reading some of the... Some of the experiences by the... the Japanese-American mainland, Nisei,

who were also in left wing activities, like Karl Kalunetta, for example. And it sounds like the party line at the time was to collaborate with the United States government because they were all anxious to defeat Germany. And so they could see the theoretical problems involved in 9066 and internment. They also were anxious to avoid deflecting the war effort. Against Germany. And so people like Koji and Karl were seen in the camps as anti-Japanese. And anti... I don't know how you call it, but anti-community, I guess. Because they were urging their fellow internees to cooperate and then to try to make the war effort to proceed more smoothly.

And so they were under... They were looked at very harshly by everybody else. Everybody else, including people who were either approach Japan. And those things are just beginning to come out now in scholarship. But more... probably more importantly, people who were really disconcerted by all of this didn't understand why they had to go through this process. Understood that there were loyal Americans in any case, and that it was unjust for them to be put away like this. And for people like Koji, who were smart enough to articulate a different kind of position that seemed to be against their interests, that must have been a real conflict. I had the book recently come out about all experience and internment of the white Japanese, and Japanese American experience during the war, leading up against some ways tied to some of the stuff that Chris was asking about.

To what degree, even for the war, was there a kind of tension in some ways between sort of race and ethnic solidarity and political movements? What kind of relations were there, or is there any real information about tensions in terms of sort of political ideology and cultural solidarity? Not a lot. And within the Japanese community, in the Japanese American community, I think it's always helpful to step back and take a look at what's happening in Japan, because these say the first generation immigrants that it needs to be remembered, were not allowed to become naturalized citizens of the United States, not until 1952. I mean, they were prohibited from becoming Americans. So really nilly, they had to be aware of what was going on in the home country because as immigrants, they were constantly subject to potential deportation. Now, what would happen to the Nisei? Nobody, I think nobody even thought about.

But in Japan, if you recall, by the late 20s and the 30s, there's an intense anti-communist which hunt going on. I mean, it's much more intense than the United States, as a matter of fact. There were Marxists who were leaving Japan coming to the United States for refuge. So within the Japanese community itself, and as I say, I don't think this has been studied, within the community itself, being leftist, being Marxist would have been a very difficult thing even within the immigrant community. I think that they had to find refuge within a few like-minded individuals and people who were from other groups as well, rather than within the ethnic community. Okay, and you situated him in relation to sort of mansana or a bit.

We know of all sorts of Nisei who were signing up at the time that either relatives or they themselves were sort of in the camps. In what ways is coaches signing up to serve his country a different and similar from the larger movement that's going up? I can't help but think that signing up for the MIS, the Military Intelligence Service for Koji was a little different. He was just politically far more acutely aware of the geopolitical circumstances. So assisting the United States in its anti-access kind of fight probably was a much more important thing for him than, say, signing up for a lot of the Nisei who became part of the 442nd or the 100th or the MIS in order to save America to be part of the war effort against Japan, for example, or against Germany as separate entities as opposed to an ideological issue.

And I think that shows later but it sounds to me like he really has a very good sense that there are good guys and bad guys in this war and the United States, you know, happens to be on the good, good guys side at this point, both for reasons of being a Marxist and being an American. So the experience you actually has in the military is going to be the one of the things that's going to be declared a traitor within seven years. Right. Could you talk a little bit about what? What you think that experience in China where you actually did in the war might have added to the kind of ideas that have been developing in the moment of the year? I, you know, the years that Yanan and all, I think they solidified. He could see firsthand that, in fact, it was, it was, Joe and I, and Mao Zedong and the Red Army,

that was actually, in fact, committed to battling the Japanese forces in China as opposed to the Guomandong. So he knew that there were people of their word and they were actually trying to do something and were courageous and working at this effort. So I think he came away from that effort with a lot of admiration for not just the ideology but for the party and the courage with which they fought. Now, what do you think that experience would have done to his notions about America and what it meant that he was an American? Because one of the things he loved was just the idea of him sitting up there having to explain to Mao Zedong and Joe and I, why the United States just screwed the move. Well, I would have loved to have listened to that conversation. I don't have no clue what that, what that might have been like. In fact, it's the one that though,

what do you think that kind of experience, what do you think is attitude by the end of the war would have been toward America's participation in the role in the world? You know, I haven't thought about that very much. My, my guess is that he's, he sees that the, the need for a revolution in the United States is still a very profound, you know, priority and that he's part of engaged in an effort that is very worthwhile. Well, we have to take that. Time? Yeah. I get two words. No, no. What's the time? What's the numbers? Twenty-three. Twenty-three. Yeah, it's that. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I mean, yeah. Oh, well, but the kindness forces and the sign of Japanese war really simply that we think is those things. Okay.

Are you asking, isn't that? Okay. We were talking a bit about that sort of commitment to American ideas and constitutional ideas in the 30s. Could you talk a little bit about how those particular ideas sort of surfaced or how importantly they figured in the kind of debates going on in Manzanah? You know, I don't know that those are issues that came out very directly during that period with most of the people who were interned. And certainly with people like Koji or Yoshi and Kalyaneta, they were suppressed if they even came out. And I suspect they were students of politics enough that they could see that this was a problem with American democracy and the Constitution. But I do think that considerations for the United Front probably overrode those

at the time, and they felt while I don't know that these are things that might have to be addressed after the war. A lot of people, I think, saw that as a... In ways that are perhaps not dissimilar to questions going on today with Islam and radical Islam and concern about terrorism that if we're at war, then we have to relegate these considerations for personal liberties and constitutional rights to the back burner until we have this settled. Except that in today's world, this is a never-ending war. So then we never get back to concerns about individual liberties or constitutional rights. But in that period, I don't know of very many people in the camps who talked about this. And it really becomes at least not documented. And it really becomes an issue only

when there are individuals who are conscripted when the draft is imposed in 1944. And the draftees and their drafters sisters invoke the Constitution as part of their right to be able to say, no, we don't go until you let everybody out. But in the 42-43 period, and certainly in the period when Koji was there, I don't know very much, I don't know that very much discussion about this was going on. And then follow up on the thank yous question. Could you talk a bit about the sort of role of that sort of image of China coming out of World War II as a sort of part of American foreign relations and what kind of role it had in that particular period? Yeah, this is, I guess an inevitable part of the national focus on treating China as an ally

in this imminent war against Japan that makes China look much better relative to Japan. At the same time, you have these disparate factions that government-dong headed by Junkai Shek and the Communist Party Red Army with Matsudun. And in that period, I think there is much, there's a much more muted sense of the Matsudun being a potential problem for us. So when Koji goes there, there is a real sense that Mao can play a role and a positive role in trying to defeat the Japanese, which is the first order of priority after all. I made that mistake, I'm starting to think.

There's Koji who gets that holding there. I mean, what changes that kind of notion of Mao? Because one of the things in talking to some of the relatives and people involved with the Dixie the Tom is every single man who served in that group who was sent there to find out what these communists were like ended up in some ways being a pariah. Making a career. Yeah. Just right because they'd even had the kind of contact. Could you talk a bit about what association with the communists trying to what turned it and what made it such a liability ultimately? Oh, I think that's fairly simple. I mean, I may be oversimplified. I think he wins. I mean, the Red Army wins. And they actually mean what they say about creating a separate system in a separate kind of society and that it's not necessarily going to be particularly compliant with American aims in Asia. And so having been associated with that, and I think it's a post-hope,

air-go-proctor-hope kind of thing. That's why it's there. If you were there then, and it came out that way, you must have intended it for it to be that way. So the results validate the fact that you must have been disloyal for the beginning. Okay, good guys.