Dalls Police Hearings

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it is i mean this is nice amy welcome to the special coverage of the congressional hearings on the dallas police department i'm barbara sanders the controversial hearings began at nine this morning and continued late tonight before we turn to the hearings is a little background on the issues that brought the congressman to town you would lose the past fifteen years ago was like community has been at odds with his police department chris the main bone of

contention has been the number of minority residents killed by the police since nineteen seventy one there had been requiring signs of unrest in the community but none like a yuppie last fall when an officer shot and killed seventy year old adam collins a south dallas woman who had called police after citing a suspected burglar it's a human rights issue right here the shooting community demonstrations to the doorstep of the slain woman's house local citizens began their own investigations because they did not trust the police department and there was a call for congressional inquiry that tune with controversy the dallas city council at the request of his two black members voted to ask the us congress subcommittee on criminal justice to come to dallas to investigate the police department's practices and policies regarding the use of deadly force and community relations newly elected mayor and that strauss led off today's session but most of the morning was taken up by witnesses who were called to give

an overview of the problem those witnesses included dallas county commissioner john wiley price attorney jack irons del city manager richard knight police chief billy prince and alert larry sherman of the university of maryland's crime control institute the procession began with opening statements from subcommittee chairman john conyers of michigan and from dallas congressman john bryant martin frost and steve bartlett us now go to the hearings as chairman conyers calls the session to order is baseball justice kennedy as we continue our tour and they're delighted to join my colleagues in the city of dallas to join

me on this first the hands of deadly force and related policies no justice we're here today to discuss the important and services that's the concern of the citizens in tunisia of the city and i want to just make a few comments before we begin as michael german word for this year and they don't work witnesses starting off with two distinguished an honorable mayor of your city ms annette strauss first so these hearings are pursuant to the constitutional rights that our lives and our federal statutes and in the

constitution itself and it deals with holiday democratic society can fairly govern and regulate itself and these questions that occurred did occur and one very important part of governing the legal system and the criminal justice system of which the police are an enormously important for the rules that concerned the conduct and responsibility of all police departments and police offices a very a chorus from city to city bus our society operates essentially on the notion that we are so government and self regulating that is to say that the but only majority of americans everywhere are decent law abiding people and that however for

and the fact that there are some that are not we need a police system and a legal system and so in that context we come here to discuss with you put on the record to discuss with one another and some of the problems some of the good things some of the activities that are going on and you're great city and i come here not as a judge not as a prosecutor but as one who is as supportive of police activity and the importance of law enforcement everywhere in this country are we here are gathered here today to examine principal way the dallas police department's use of deadly force now because of the request that when we've had and we have a long list of witnesses and i want to be the first can see that we have not been able to

get all of the witnesses on oh we're going to go as long today as possible ah probably are even many of you will be able to stay up with less i hope are still not a freeze and assistance are fortified so we can really have sung along and an in depth hearings because of the long list of people who are on the witness list now i have taken the extraordinary step of calling the chairman of the judiciary committee peter rodino and asked him to assure me that there will be if necessary if needed audition or hearings and hours on this subject it may be that we may not be able to include all of our activities today or or even tomorrow if we can go part of the time with our colleague on the subcommittee the honorable john bryant was

it you know to yield to the gentleman from the fifth district of taxes a member of the subcommittee on criminal justice and one was played a very important role in bringing us here on my good friend and colleague the honorable congressman like in the future for a force that's it for you and have to turn the resources and attention of the subcommittee to a problem that no we have to begin to grapple with inner city some grapple with for many years but not enough of us to grapple with it and so we have that going to come a time in which we have the paradoxical such a circumstance when he was the general public is suffering great strong sense of dissatisfaction under the barn of a rapidly growing crime rate in the minority community probably more dissatisfied than anyone because they feel the crime rate and board the

crime rate in even greater degree in the rest of us americans are known about the crime rate but also about the relationship with the police department and thirty the policeman you have every right to wonder whether or not they're receiving adequate community support and there is substantial evidence that they have not received adequate community support from our city year in the form of investment law enforcement or in the form of investment in the people protectors are regard for crime fact is that crime has increased in dallas we did increase between nineteen seventy six and nineteen eighty six by sixty eight percent in nineteen eighty five we had the highest major crime rates in the country with exception of one other city which got irate than ours in nineteen eighty six the following year we had another eighteen percent increase yet the response about our own city government has been quite the contrary what the factions seem to dictate we today like twenty thirty of twenty four largest cities in for capital expenditures for law enforcement in the place of a

sixty eight in percent increase in crime between nineteen seventy six and nineteen eighties six our city government approved only eleven percent increase in the size of the police force and last december it was written in one of our daily papers based upon data provided by the police department at any given time one of every five police beats was without any patrol officer now an order to me the national average which we do not meet the day of the regular policeman to go to the citizens of three policemen for one thousand citizens will have to increase the police force by almost six hundred police no one has suggested that in fact in the last year the dallas city council actually cut the pay of policeman in the city and comprehensible act for which i would be interfering explanation during her hearing today

so we have two circumstances racier a population of the same people stretched way beyond their limits sensing a lack of full support and for immigration and a lot of our city and the same time a police force of decent people also and also stretched beyond their limits and sensing a lack of full support from the city they raised their last for every day that cut their pay in the last fiscal year that accommodation is guaranteed to give his problems we have some problems i think this hearing today going to show its nature of them and joyous i know what some of the solutions can be as well i thank you for reviewing the focus the petitioners a listener sharon like to now recognize my friend and colleague from the third congressional district congressman barney frank who's chairman chairman i do appreciate the opportunity to join you and other members of the subcommittee and is here and today i look forward to

hope is an informative and a productive session is you know i'm not a member of this particular congressional committee but as a congressman from dallas and is a former at large member of the city dallas city council i do share with your particular interest in this matter and responsibility for achieving understanding on all sides i know that my colleagues from dallas today are also here and share that same interest or responsibility as you know ms chairman i was not in favor of the united states congress holding a hearing such as this is true i having served in local government i believe that the police community relations and related matters are best dealt with other localities and citizens themselves in with appropriate law enforcement agencies without the interference by congress but on that point we have an honest difference of opinion an approach have any knowledge that i do appreciate the opportunity of given me the prettiest thing i look forward to working with this committee and publicly

examining carefully and objectively any problem areas which exist and more poorly identifying steps which should be taken for improvement it seems to me that our primary areas of focus today should be first what exactly are the policies of the dallas police department with respect to the use of force and how well does the department operates and implementing those policies further what is the dallas police departments interaction with all sectors of the dallas community and how does this compare with police forces and other cities and second what problem areas exist and how does the department and the city plan to address them and improving these are important issues and i appreciate the chance to be with you today to examine i know like to recognize our colleague from the twenty fourth district of texas are old and dear friend of mine congressman martin frost welcome i want to begin by thanking chairman conyers are traveling to dallas and residing here today in his staff are most

welcome and i offer my commendation for the fine work that's been done to bring the hearing together several months ago that's when brian and i were approached by community leaders and asked to become involved in this issue at that time it became clear to me that for whatever reason a severe degree of mistrust and resentment of that police department existed within the minority community it will benefit no one for this level of distrust and resentment to continue we must approach it directly discover its cause and worked to eliminate the subcommittee hearings today and tomorrow provide us with the opportunity to begin that process if they're and balanced group of witnesses will appear before the subcommittee all concerned parties will be represented and allow to testify we will hear from city officials police department officials community leaders and community spokespersons also a number of experts from other parts of the country will appear provide us with the perspective of by comparing dallas with other communities that face similar problems

i look forward to the testimony and again command chairman connors putting together such an impressive list dallas is one of the great cities in our nation and my people and all great cities we refuse to ignore our problems i strongly believe that this hearing is the first step in improving the relationship between citizens and our community and the police department charged with providing their safety by addressing this problem now we can avoid long term hostility and great for police officers a safer environment to carry out their duties and provide for citizens the protection they need to work care for their homes and raise their families thank you very much good morning there strauss if you raise your right hand do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you are about to give is the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help you got your much good morning mr chairman here with me today is first

assistant city attorney david brat on behalf of the citizens of dallas i want to extend to you a very sincere welcome to our city and to our own congressman i want to say we appreciate your being here three months a bigger is campaigning for mayor brought me face to face with citizens in all parts of the city and without exception one of the primary concerns expressed to me is a growing instances crime in this area dallas faces many of the same problems confronting other major cities and we're dealing with them head on recognizing that sensitivity and flexibility are necessary if we are to be able to solve them we believe we have an outstanding police force of capable dedicated men and women at the same time we realize that there is a need to improve communication and understanding between our police department and i'm an artist citizens it is our hope that information given from this hearing today will have a very positive impact on improving community relations and will encourage an atmosphere of harmony and openness

the city of dallas is committed to listening carefully and i urge everyone here today to listen and learn from each other thank you very much thank you very much will we welcome their presence and construe it as a indication of a deep concern about the subject matter here i you are invited to join us up here at the palace to choose or to stay in the court room whatever your pleasure and thank you sir our first home will consist of five persons commissioner dallas county john wiley price attorney jackie airs crime control institute executive larry sherman the dallas city manager mr richard knight and the chief of the dallas police department mr billy graham's widow that now number one join us at the witness table please first person i have the owner's permission to oust cummins john

wiley price is a price in that pursuit let me begin by saying that most of the citizens of dallas are today and others at their jobs or in their homes and looking for these congressional hearings as though they will somehow managed to expose expunge are calls to cure the evils that obviously have to set the criminal justice system about us but those same person would carefully and critical review the record of any police department in the united states they could not help but recognize that the racism that affects the criminal justice system is the endowment's of the same racism that affects the criminal justice system anywhere in the united states there are full i would begin by admonishing bowls of us determine to reflect any change in policy in part the criminal justice system in dallas not become overly dependent on the outcome of these years just look around at those in attendance here today without

looking very closely you will see some of the outspoken critics of this year were seeded among us as key figures of the process however these congressional hearings are vital to the health of doubts if no other reason than they will provide a forum in which the institutionalized forms of racism such as they exist within the criminal justice system may be examined and they be eradicated if we are truly optimistic we could expect this process to serve as a model pro which this community could create a more equitable constitutional solution to racism another reigns not do and be somewhat pessimistic mr regard for these hearings we call the rigid structure of just the more rules i love the free flow of testimony so wild to the clear understanding of the major problem here and doubts secondly because invitations to justify more frequently have disregarded those most directly affected by racist police tactics and techniques

and verna because ultimately there are no checks and balances between the federal government and state and local government as its regards what i refer to as the ultimate violation of one civil rights and that is the death at the head of a police officer especially when the accused is african american or mexican americans were as the federal share all the system you my shoulder all corporate shill with the chairman of the responsibility for the fbi or the us attorney's office for the negligence because boys i am concerned they have been aiding and abetting the dallas police department where is your oversight maybe you need to investigate your agency's in this area as well also met this was chairman and also the accompanying autopsies on all of the autopsies of seventy one individuals from nineteen eighty to nineteen eighty six who will fall on that the hands of the dallas police department and i would've told the question to this committee of the weather not any of those individuals civil

rights help in bali that he was chairman and i cannot color representing the crime control institute mr larry sherman welcome to the subcommittee proceedings thank him as chairman away it's astonishing that we are here discussing the effects of a nineteenth century technology it is almost as absurd as if we are inquiring as to accidents and injuries caused by the conestoga wagon the six shooter which played such a vital in the history of texas is no longer the best technology we can develop to regulate conduct among the population congress of the united states has invested billions of dollars in making more sophisticated weapons but they have not appropriate add one penny to find a way in which police officers can temporarily subdue people who are posing a threat to them or to others i'm not from dallas and washington and i can tell you my views that the most important thing congress can

do is to address that issue a mere five million dollars a year appropriations or something like the national institute of justice for nonlethal weapons technology program might mean that these hearings could be discontinued because they wouldn't be people being jailed given the tools to do something else in those circumstances and since the same kinds of situations to generate homicides in the public also very often unfortunately generate homicides in which the police officers are pulling the trigger it is quite understandable that a city that ranks so terribly high in national homicides i should also rank high in absolute numbers of persons killed by the police so i think one has to understand that the place to begin with deadly force used by the police in dallas is the use of deadly force in the population at large and the fact that it is very difficult to police a violent city without any violence although the whole lot easier if there were non lethal weapons available to help the police do the job like the very rich we no welcome mat to our

weakness of the dallas city manager mr richard knight morning juan i want to begin life size sex in our mind it is that it is over management plan will almost inevitably a city of opportunity on the quality of life you know one of there's a ride at the bed of the fall of the markets and yet today about the police department in the series you will hear from a variety of police departments the years they want to

walk around that objected when you're a top level commitment within miles of asia and within the police department to deliver that are political observers in the city of bell the presentation will conclude with a review of a comprehensive action plan for the future is impressive and in accordance with the city's management plan and goals when it eighty six eighty seven the co pays effective police community relations increasingly not the visibility adding additional storefronts and reviewing the deadly force policy i'm especially mindful of the charges of racism that it in part for this congressional inquiry i want to address those charges here and now and the most direct way

possible also opened this is another grew dramatically in recent years and you and i know that whistle and insensitive attitude persist in certain segments of our society unfortunately a balance is not new to this racism divides humanity and breach distrust it stifles creativity and the human spirit it cannot and it will not be tolerated the city of dallas supports the dignity and rights of every individual opportunities for employment open to all based on desire and ability likewise i'll have a call up my commitment but all of the citizens of dallas thank you very much the next two witnesses due to for the dallas police department mr billick france good morning sir what is chairman committee members

it and hope it the results of these hearings will end up like our city a better place to leo are police officers safer on the street with a better relationship between the police the community they serve our department of them ever the department for twenty two the one on twenty three years now i've been achieved the last five years we really worked hard to try to make sure that our department continue to be well the plan is to not be planted in the country when laid down in concord objectively to other police department's major cities i think our partners in a part of me and women who truly care about the police or that this community are hiring in order to try to make sure that the people we put on the street do you feel that way in your heart we screened all that man percent of the people who plotted the dallas police officer for every man who make it in any one bill we have

psychological services of screening by professional staff psychologist since nineteen sixty eight and every police officer is higher this detritus for now those who may be too aggressive or to passing and try to get people who are little row and they're taking their attitude of background checks are designed to and of these people so we don't arm and put a legend gunnell moments in the mouth to police its community the average number of college hours of police officers there was a hundred and three each today we are the best educated major police department in the united states the police work as has been pointed out already chairman by herself as a very dangerous often thankless job we are committed to dallas police department has achieved or committed to continue trip that improve our apartment the truck continued to

demand an environment an atmosphere quality treating people with dignity and respect and concentrating on service to the community that we're here to serve through our policies but in our programs we are willing to adjust and change if it can be shown when that will help us achieve our workers like mixture that your merchant mr tooth france will i'd like to know will recognize the captain of the dallas police department for his tricks though more like aleppo city of dallas please let me that now look these are the more specifically it's also modern this morning in addition to the dallas police department as you mentioned my name is rick stone and they're currently having on everyday division commander of bells which farm and wanting or certification

when i joined the dallas which farm in nineteen seventy three the citadel's was not the city that welcome you today just as dallas the city has risen from the prairie become the sparkling international city in the nineteen eighties so as a ballast least forward progressive years we call him a very high tech fueled by the police before that prides itself on my team the very most fishes use of all of our resources as crime increases and the enormous profits associate with narcotics trafficking become more prevalent the danger of office it increases also the use of deadly force by our police officers has always been of these armed rebels with farm we're one of only a very few cities anywhere in this country they can report to you even how many also involve shooting incidents we'll head back to the er most cities did not even keep his basic information as a matter of routine

however using this difficult to find that it be a man of the house ranks seventh in population here's a very interesting comparisons in the number of persons shot by police officers that was rank ninth and in the percentage of homicides that was my point and the downside and the number was for botching instance pour one hundred thousand population dallas right eleventh and in the number of index crimes major crimes most categories of marvel right all retailers all all they are set and barbary the number of index funds are police offered ought to be used in dallas right at you don't have to be a research analyst to say that given the size of our city settled in population these like he's indicated apartment

far for better comparison they could be statistically expected or even how we recruit many offers each year using the slogan dallas police a career and carrie it's more the slogan we need society it one what forms of honor caesar's <unk> says very exciting but how much more do you have to go to answer to it is for opium it has been since it eighty one dallas police officers that live the watchwords of honor dedication and services we provide timely embodying the best we can with what we have we pay for it with our lives and we're committed to continue to live by the precepts of honor dedication and surface it really think that they're reemerge

final witness on the panel is a turn its actors members of the names billie jean listen with particular interest to the remarks of mr knight chief trance guest is joan i think that all the citizens of dallas would like and want nothing more then to be in complete agreement with each and all the summit's have been expressed let me say on behalf of many citizens of this city and of this county but i believe that we have some of the very finest people in the world remember about which are an mit and elsewhere are selfish than an unselfish by an individual but that of course is the question that is before the committee the question that has been for the committee is how can we improve our community of desperation in the criminal justice system and this well and

so assuming that that was what my testimony in and bob was expected to discuss as opposed to john route that i would like to discuss the letter specifically from our point of view the trip to do real critical issues that the committee nice discussing that would like to have the benefit of council of the other witnesses or are these far does the city of dallas police department have a viable workable and state of the art but get hacked a policy regarding deadly force and secondly it does does the city of dallas following incidents involving police involved shootings or the employment deadly force have a good investigative program whereby the information concerning of shootings is karen ackerman my mobile to the public one is essential to the proper function of the police department the other is essential to the integrity of the criminal justice system my own research indicates that the dallas police department policy on deadly force is not a hectic policy

it is a policy which regrettably is bound up in a great deal of play and howie ambiguous and subjective language which has been can be about tiger woods and knowledgeable experts in the field since the late nineteen sixties and require officers to consider a number of matters which are highly subjective a marionette and an import at a critical time generally recognized that the policy is a policy that is almost always associate with the highest says oh improper police shootings my research indicates that as early as nineteen eighty two the shoot dont shoot for mayor had already been identified about behavioral psychologist as inciting and calling police shootings not preventing in nineteen eighty three or shoot dont shoot for or more specifically examined by the dade county grand jury is as a result of a series of unfortunate killings such as at a column instantly filling such as ron cox an instinctive gala

and it was convened by nineteen eighty four the situation had reached such a level that the national at the national institutes conducted by the department of justice the federal bureau of investigation helicopter had to say an art which psychological services for law enforcement were discussed at that seminar a recognized expert in police behavior in a deadly force dr theodore while cite those very statistics and suggested that she knows she should not be used because they incite people to believe that there was only one alternative to violent confrontation which was the use of deadly force rather than to allow an officer if at all possible to withdraw entirely from the situation or takeover to minimize risk to himself in boston surprisingly the dallas police department had representatives of that mean that

information was imparted to all who were present yet for another two years but should go to boston persistent continued missing the question is why was this shoot dont shoot policy continue for two years after he had been clearly demonstrated in most cases in which it had been thoroughly study to call police shootings i hope that in the course of the committee's hearing this will serve this at my shoe service on background perhaps what i think is the saddest time ago the man and woman on the street a dedicated police officer for the city of dallas b care about its citizens almost without exception are decent and honorable people the problem is with writing bubbly that the problem in this situation is a situation in which the city of dallas that administration does not be a proper balance out that policy with the trying for bodies people know what's expected of them and know that they will be called to appeal shirley and absolutely if i filed a measure up to those standards object of investigative techniques

which are not solely to command influence or a degree of compromise and found i think they were fine should they say and varied about what are an advantage to the community that represented here all things like when i hear the stifled by well intentioned individuals that i support the place and i think when they say that i'm i mean different kinds some people that are going to support a place to run the national ad despite the county at the local level a platform that is insured a guarantee that there will be no tax increase to the citizens regardless of the need in the community regardless of the need of the police department in other words the police are supposed to do more and more with less and less cars pointed out that in comprehensible to may and then the second thing is the people are trying to support the police frequently are least willingly still able to do anything to support the community the

dallas police department cannot solve crime in this community the dallas police department cannot rectify by itself the conditions of helplessness and hopelessness which is that some people in criminal activity the dallas police department cannot change overnight the fact that many school children in this community goes fuel without food that many people unable to pay decent housing that many people are able to obtain basic health care about place the problem is not responsible for those eight and it should not be judged for them but yet we cannot hold at the dallas police department or contribute meaningfully to bow out here if we don't address of basic human problems and what is disturbing most to make a settlement late or avail and what is disturbing most to me is that this is this country and this state in regard to appropriations for human services and the basic needs of our people seemed to be on a roll that is by tomorrow by critchley is part of protecting our

citizens is concern and if that is the case if we don't address the vice a human made because of despair and helplessness that we see in this community in some areas and wake him have all the storefront office is that we want to and all the good intentions that we want to and we're rearranging deck chairs on the titanic i think of her modest the server that was the questions we begin no with a question of shovel a panelist on the use of on the deadly force policy itself as i understand the dallas police department and reading through the testimony changed its deadly force policy early two years ago corrupt three years ago to be had in essence a hero the deadly force policy is based on on the imminent the danger of life for your bigger danger of life policy and that was the change in and i'd suggest thing that is james it's a

it's long overdue my question is so messed begin with this chairman eric educate you repudiate deadly force policy does raise corn has served how does it compare with what you would consider to be the norm or the or the ideal in an order changes that you would do or that you're making a policy or your concerns related more to the implementation of the policy that policy but i have had an opportunity to review similar policy throughout the country and like i can say that the first arose in this dramatic change from allowing police to shoot any fleeing police suspect which mostly supports the big cities have eliminated even before the garner decision the supreme court in nineteen eighty five until that unconstitutional but also policy in the world about when you may shoot at the moment that confrontation is irrelevant once you've got to that stage important question is how the police a potentially violent

situation of quiet city in a way that allows the officer to stay away from those confrontations the bike talk to bring in other resources for negotiation tia i think the killing in the arts so that brought the committee to your mrs barbara saying the eviction from public housing project it did with the officers are trying to do they had some nonlethal weapons for restraining her they were trying everything possible to avoid having a life and a confrontation so policy that even when it's a police shootings to life and death confrontations doesn't get around the question of how to get the compensation first place perhaps most important training is not the shoot dont shoot decision important training is conflict avoidance taking abuse having people spit in your face and scream obscenities at you and still find ways to avoid the life and that confrontation at a terrible challenge a terrible word and put on the police as long as we're stuck with his nineteenth century technology for subduing people and that's really the challenge that miami's

attempted to do another city so that someone thought she achieved grand so i know the work testimony later on the specifics of the hearsay dallas and forth across your own if you could to describe the specifics of that policy and how it's different from what it used to be and in light of what both mr erickson which naturally upset how would have the dallas police department to transmit in in use that policy train the officers in that policy and and what can be done to improve it we in nineteen eighty four did change are deadly force policy for the first time in many years before the tennessee decision are and now we did that after one year of research collecting policies of twenty five major cities the fbi the end only see the model policy and the international association of chiefs of police more policy own use

of that force we reviewed all the policies look at our situation and balance and makes herbal changes which were more restrictive or use of deadly force basically went to the defense of black deadly force policy and not actually made our policy more restrictive than in chapter nine of the texas penal code do you do you would you describe the year how you enforce that deadly force policy specifically a question what raises to the independence of police farms investigation that well in the case of police deadly force we have begun an investigation of police internal affairs division and other investigations are criminal investigation division they review the senate there is a particular controversy at my request of ithaca party has agreed to this separate independent investigation they did one recently completed one in the shooting a water cops

bananas conjure mr ayres is what to wear those findings which were really shift the bubble way out like to make sure that we enter into the record fact that i'm in that mr ayres is on retainer from the anniston police or the harbor the city that's been paid not to say that the fighting in this war to find those in the academy are located over europe and faraway rescued me here is well i'm not mistaken in your city attorney calling the city manager of this investment of our show you about the attitude of the city about him coming year americans year as a witness is coming as well saw all these really impressions of laughter this is a surprising that is correct we did not have problems years testimony as of this time and if i may i want to

request captivity gobs of those things and i have some questions he has turned out to be reasonably free because we have we do have witnesses but i have some questions i'd like to direct to the city manager into the chief nomination and i'm really drawing on your own testimony of fairly voluminous testimony that you've pretended to history and that so for other witnesses we'll discuss later on when we have achieved here at harvard asking these questions she wanted out point out to us currently the dallas police department has black officers twelve point one percent hispanic or five point nine percent for a total of eighteen percent of the population the city of dallas is twenty nine percent black and fifteen percent hispanic so the job you're talking about a forty four

percent minority population the city and eighty percent of the officers beating the market also you've talked about your testimony the fact that you have point three hundred and five police officers and that this compares services considerably fewer than some other major cities particularly an age of eleven to see the old roman road to the page to do is a chart showing that you haven't actually happened at berkeley sauces of the city of detroit for example for one thousand population it appears to me that you have two problems one that you don't have total police officers and two that you don't have enough minority police officers now the question is i know that you've made some strides in this connection in recent years to increase the number of minority office that you have but what's going to happen to comedy results issued this city have total and what should be the mix between minority in an anglo please else's night as both achieved the city magic to comment on

it we need more police officers and city council in recent years and we're grateful for it has to recognize that and begun to let the police department's role in catch up with the pressure over the city we also certainly need more minority police option that's obvious we work very hard under my administration to achieve that i don't think the issue will be whether we need or not or whether we're obtaining more not going to be is it fast enough are we being successful are great enough level that the cincinnati in nineteen eighty we had a hundred night lack of change today we have two hundred and eighty two without a hundred and thirty nine percent increase will mostly games we might have been in the last five years or so we also have the eighty seven hispanic voters in nineteen eighty and today we have a hundred and thirty one four fifty one percent increase and we've done as well in the area aren't females we had a hundred and forty four nineteen eighty we have two hundred and eighty two to pay for increase of ninety six percent well we

tried hard we work hard we recruited all over the country well as you both lived if you didn't have serious budgetary problems if you are able to hire the number of officers that you feel this city needs to effectively do his job how many would that be chief nominee would you have a new force right now i would give you a ballpark figure based on you know taking into account the additional storefronts foot patrols and some the other things that i see that we've neglected the atlas i just answer calls probably somewhere today it to do all these things and builds in fairly rapid fashion would probably take five or six hundred additional archers that commissioner bud of victory one racial terror on the population that but i think we have to be very careful in terms of trying to rapidly salt the problem that's that's been calls for cleaner fifteen years but it's not growing

and i think if you're not careful if you travel into the people that at one time you reduce the quality of your people and therefore you pay a price that we've seen some other major cities like when i travel go to invest your wallets and so i think the control quality growth is what we hear and and i would say a hundred a hundred fifty year with an attrition rate of about a hundred and fifty years ago with a total of three hundred and it increases on dvd is about the maximum we can do in the academy without running that's cool or something else i would the city manager dream of those figures aren't we did it can to accommodate all of the opinions is that enough for the needs of the city was seized at it not always meet will probably about five hundred but given the other nuances of our ability to bring in the elements that give the maximum income repairs audio apologize to the committee if the committee didn't know about the two police

officers in that i am legal advisor for several police agencies including the town of anson i thought that that was at least my stress and one reason for me what medium and i am i if he perhaps intended divided and being paid by and by to test out here that simply not where an apparent here as a private citizen and a mom concerned are not here for accomplishing i represent police officer i'm an attorney in private practice here in dallas was part of my practices out mentioned is a is in the area that doesn't want want my kids to have an active trial and appellate practice it church in law schools and medical schools in this community and what i said was in what i'm concerned about is not what is written on a page about philosophies time but do we have a good candidate lucy specific deadly force policy that the average officer on the street not somebody like captain stone richie lanz or some

of the fine folks that we see her die but the average bait they're at your driving force the law can fully and completely understand without having a lawyer to repeal it on a lot about the force policies and i don't understand the policy and i've read it well ms jarrett i hope you'll be able to stay with us when we get to how the brain's for people to deal with that subject was so important and one of the leaders of the police community not respond to it and that's why it had to come up even though we have a special portion of our hearing dedicated to that said no but may ask you also two for civil service employees as you know historically and the commander stone went through a thorough review of police development and the city i you know that one of the mechanisms that we wrestled with

not always successfully as having an avenue open for citizens to bring their grievances and complaints about police it is a very difficult thing to police one's own operation you have to do that and i'm sure you do i in washington we are faced with the same kind of problem continually in the department of justice created as a result of our federal experience at a special independent counsel we used to call him a special prosecutor there's about three or four that i know of working in washington now that that is based on the simple proposition that because of a potential conflict of interest it is better that the department of justice don't investigate this because it may end up in their own backyard in their offices may intensive on one of their offices and that might be unable to pursue a free and

fair investigation and i think that's the the notion behind citizen complaints boroughs with reference to police departments what has been your experience and that rigor with reference to that system and how might we discuss how it might be made more open and i didn't write any other members of the panel after two fronts to make and towns and i was the commander of the internal affairs division here for three years was a captain at first hand experience of dealing with this and know my experience has been that when i was a captain of internal affairs based on the personal experience we always had some officers who were accusing of being here punished the two telephone police officers there were always had some citizens accusing the loquat washing and covering the complaints it seemed to me at that time that if if we the best we

could open going and investigating citizen complaints are clamping down in focus on within the police department to try to have some kind of balance within the system and i felt like at that time that they do we had a fuel leak sad that the electorate was inspired them enough that what we were probably done about the best we could on the circumstances realizing that it was an incumbent almost always try to make everybody equally they were wearing and whether it worked it's difficult i realized for a citizen to come for my complaint to a police atmosphere in unusual an uncomfortable environments of all we've done our best to try to ensure that people who wished the mexican wine actually softened can that is thoroughly investigated and then ultimately that this opener is rendered and now appropriate

local nineteen seventy two i was thrown out of the precinct house in new york city oh i'm going into those thousands dressed in rather massive fire and has an automated way to get results and at the time i was being thrown out the lights barely year without any responses might play a low potential for the way i was employed one years it was before i was working for the inspections division is part of an ongoing system of testing responsiveness of the entire two citizens who wish to make a point that program including telephone increasing corruption and brutality and those tests you're unfortunate time at best fifty percentage points actually being poured into the internal affairs chairman i find that problem the city of dallas and how a fairly deep division is no different than probably anyplace else across this country they're probably systematic distrust of fallen with an agency i too low and external agency as one in dallas but it must have some teeth

the same difficulties this agency as having today is the difficulty that we as individual citizens are having under the freedom of information act and the open records act of the state of texas in acquiring information that we feel is necessary and you'll find a package the exhibit a a lot of that audio gioia correspondents to the rocket docket i think that unless we talk about mike's tally gets sick with subpoena power and no were basically just spitting into the way that particular agency must have some teeth in order for it to have some secrets the us should also let you know commission price that we earn as an invited the united states' community relations commission here in dallas to protest a cave in these hearings which would perhaps open a window on your question with regard to federal practices in the prosecutor's office and the fbi they decline

to justify for reasons that i will soon find out and i tend to meet with me the head of the us attorney and the fbi there with my colleagues if they're willing to because i think you going has been very well made at this panel these federal protections and no matter what and what criticisms that maybe raises about the inevitably flow into i love the law enforcement support systems like a feckless now all of you have presented very important testimony appreciate your corporation the times fb panels end of a fight the chairman for that but said that there were a couple rooms and buggy prince

and his deputies so the letters are second world consumes convention portions sure moves for a jewish tombs was charged two mare try it