Parenting Again: Grandparents Raising Grandchildren

They were very hard to get in touch. They are called the golden years, and for many older cancens, the golden the golden years is the time spent with grandchildren. For most, it's the best of both worlds. The joy of children without the day-to-day responsibility for them. Play with them, read them a book, buy them an ice cream cone, but send them home with the parents at the end of the day. But for a growing number of Kansas grandparents, there is no end of day. Instead, they have become the primary caregiver for their grandchildren, forced into this awesome responsibility for a variety of reasons. According to data from the U.S. Census Bureau, about 18,000 Kansas grandparents care for about 29,000 children. More than half of those grandparents reside in just four Kansas counties,

including Sedgwick with 4,066, Wyandotte with 2,301, Johnson with 1,443, and Shawnee with 1,251. The custodial responsibilities for raising a grandchild are not a short-term obligation for the Kansas grandparents. Three out of four have cared for their grandchildren for at least one year, and nearly half have borne that responsibility for more than three years. About half of the children in their care are six years old or younger. 65% of Kansas custodial grandparents are between the ages of 45 and 64. 28% are single grandparents, and single grandmothers are much more likely than single grandfathers to care for their grandchildren. 17% of the grandparents live below the federal poverty line, and the number of custodial grandparents jumped 43% between 1990 and 2000.

The challenges are obvious for an age group that is more associated with retirement than child rearing. Mary Corrigan is an assistant professor at Wichita State University's School of Community Affairs. There are a wide array of psychological and social challenges that a grandparent faces when they take on the care of a grandchild. I think that one of the issues that first needs to be acknowledged is that these children come to the grandparent almost always in less than ideal circumstances. Sometimes the reason is substance abuse on a part of the biological parent that generation in the middle, it may be related as well to issues of criminal justice and that parent may be in jail for some reason. There's also been a trend in our society over the last couple of decades increasingly with teen parenting.

And so sometimes it's simply the young age and the immaturity of the parent that leads the grandparent to step in and take on that parenting role. A level of difficulty for grandparents with full time custody of their grandchildren varies widely from family to family. But few can match the challenges of Edna Nagel who has raised her 13-year-old great-grandson since his birth, legally blind and hampered by other physical ailments. Edna and her great-grandson Tyler share a small home in Osage City about 35 miles south of Topeka. Well, my daughter, daughter, had a baby. She had, he was born to 27th February. She would have been 16 the first day of August. I've seen him when he was four days old and I know that he was going to have a horrible life because he's grandpa didn't want him. My daughter didn't want him. And the kid that had him didn't know enough to take care of him.

She wasn't old enough. And I just prayed that God would give me strength to take him. And I decided not to feed him. So they kept him a while. And by two months the back of his head was getting flat. They never picked him up. And he was hungry. And so I took him Ben. And I didn't get him adopted until he was almost three. So they would come and take him away from me and take him away for two or three weeks, bringing him back without any clothes, any toys, and set him down again. Well, I asked a court about me a refusal to let him have him. And they said, if I did, then I'd be the one going to jail, not the mother because it was not my child. So I told her that I either had to adopt him or they had to stay out of my life. I couldn't handle having him and loving him and taking care of him and her taking him away.

So she signed the adoption papers. Despite her deteriorating vision and advanced age, Edna saw no other alternatives when her teenage granddaughter gave birth to Tyler. He couldn't be thrown out with the bathwater. Somebody had to raise him. And I felt I had got on my side to help. So I never did worry a whole lot about it. And I can put back on the 13 years I've had him. And there is not a day that I regret ever taking him. And when I fed him, I put him at this little parking seat. And I'd feel the sea for his mouth is and then I'd put the spoon in. And we've pretty well found the nipple on the bottle most of the time. And I kept him clean and take care of him and I slept with him. So we got along real good because he was a real good baby.

The idea of an old blind woman taking on the responsibility of raising a grandchild had its critics among Edna's fellow residents in Osage City. Oh, you'd be surprised. I'll tell you these older people at Osage, you haven't got no use for that kid. What did you take him for? You don't need him. And well, you're doing a good job, but you're just too old to be doing them things. Now, I've heard that from all of them and wasn't none of their business. Like many grandparents in similar situations, Edna sees nothing but positive results, both for her and her adopted child. Oh, yes, he kept me much younger. He kept me with more of an open mind and everything to have him. Yeah, he has really been good for me. We just talk about everything. We's out there in the swing one day and he's getting, no, maybe 11 or 12 years old.

And I kind of wanted to know what street talk he found out, what he found out. And I said, Tyler, I said, just what do you know about sex? He said, I don't know a thing. And I don't want to know a thing. And why did you ask me that question? Now, Tyler and I talk openly about everything. Father West in the small central Kansas town of Ellis, 70-year-old Bill Okam has discovered that raising his grandchildren is the best retirement activity he could have imagined. More than a decade ago, Bill and his wife, Jody, realized that the only way to save his two grandchildren was to flee San Diego, California and seek refuge in the quiet, uncomplicated life of small town Kansas. The two children, Michaela and Cody, were infants when Bill and Jody decided to adopt them. The birth mother, Bill's daughter from a previous marriage, was addicted to drugs and the children were born with the same addiction.

At first, the challenge seemed overwhelming to Bill. I didn't think it was possible. I thought it, and I'm sorry to say that I thought it hook and tooth. And if it wasn't for Jody, I don't know how it would have ever come out. But I was under the impression I was too old to take on a responsibility like that. I didn't think I could do it. And I don't think finances ever entered into it. But my age, and at that time, I was still healthy, though, so I didn't have any problems with that way. But I mean, I just didn't figure that I was man enough to handle that late in life, which I found out different. You do what you got to do. There's the best thing in the world that ever happened to me. I mean, things started all my whole life at a new perspective. I had something to work with and for.

And slowly but surely those two birds right there became Jody and I's life. We have no life, and that's the way we want it. But they are our life. Everything we do is through or for them or with them. And that's the way it came about. So the doubts I had went away very quickly. And then I figured, well, looking around no matter what, I can do as good as the parents that I see in a general vicinity. I can do that or better. So I had no worries about it. Because of the potential health problems for two children born from a drug addicted mother, Bill and Jody decided that adoption was the best solution. Our case worker advised us not to do that. There were many more loopholes in just guardianship. She says, go shoot for the adoption right from the get-go. And get the other people out of the picture totally, or you'll have trouble,

which evidently would have been more than the trouble we've encountered. And that's basically been the only thing we've had. We have to monitor them constantly, medically, because of their birth. It was so horrendous, you know. And we were concerned about that. But they, God, they both turned out very healthy. The decision to adopt their grandchildren was a crucial moment for the okums. Other, less binding arrangements are possible. And custodial grandparents have to decide what level of involvement is appropriate for their situation. Stacey Cooper is a Topeka attorney who specializes in family law. The lowest level would just be the basic parental consent, power of attorney to seek medical care and education for the child. The next strict one would be legal one would be a regular guardianship, at which time the parents can still maintain a relationship with the children. But the grandparents can monitor it, set the limitations, that type of thing.

And there's the permanent guardianship where, again, the parents can visit with the child if the grandparents deemed that it's right. And then there's adoption. And the adoption would be just like any other adoption if the parents consent to it and voluntary relinquish their parental rights. Or if there's been no support or contact with between the parent and the child for two years previously to file in the legal action, the court can find them unfit. At the grandparents are worried that the children are using drugs or whatever, that the children are being taken from relationship to relationship or place to place and that there's just no stability in the child's life. And if the grandparents determine that they really need the stability, they really do need to go in for the legal guardianship. Because just the parental consent can be revoked at any time. So without the consent, a parent can go in and say,

I'm taking them and if the grandparents say no, the police are called, the police get involved, they're going to give the children to the natural guardians, absent a court order, giving somebody else custody of the children. Adoption can also mean an absolute separation of the children from their birth mother as well as the case with the okums. So we've had negative contact with her. It's all been very bad and devastating for us monetarily, but she's not referred to other than biomem around here. I mean, there's no association whatsoever. However, these children know exactly all of the circumstances. Nothing has been held back from them. They know everything from day one. They complete story on everything. So we have no contact with her or her side of the family whatsoever. Despite his early reservations, Bill Okum echoes the sentiments of most custodial grandparents

as he counts the benefits of becoming a parent for the second time around. There's so many, I would even know where to start, as I say, retirement was devastating to me. I hated the thought of it, but with them around, then it became a real pleasure. Everything associated has been a total pleasure, and there's so many things that I have time to do with them that I didn't even have time to do with my older children that physically and mentally, especially, I came to a real great awakening. It was just good for me, or it might have extended my life, I'm sure it has. Heartwarming stories abound about grandparents who raise their grandchildren, but heartbreaking stories can also be found. Custody battles between grandparents and the child's natural parents are all too common in Kansas courts.

One issue that a grandparent may face, and it's always a potential hanging in the background, is that their child may reach a point that they feel stable enough to want to take on the parenting role once again. Again, if their child had been out of commission, so to speak, because of substance abuse or criminal justice issue, or even the immaturity of young age when they became a parent, and now we're looking five, six years down the road, and that person may want to step back into the role of being the parent. That can be emotionally very difficult for the grandparent to, at that point, do I want to step back? And the issue whether they need to step back or not comes back to a matter of law. If, earlier on, that grandparent had gotten the legal right to be making decisions for that grandchild, then chances are, even though their child may be saying, okay, I want to take over the role and be a parent to my own children now,

and try to move the grandparent out of the picture, that individual may not have the right to push the grandparent out. His grandfather and I took that into Oklahoma. In her home in Kansas City, Kansas, Alberta Martin is trying to adjust to losing custody of her grandson after caring for him for more than a year. After a lengthy court battle involving judges, lawyers, and social workers, eight-year-old Donald Martin was returned to his mother. Alberta's battle began after her son died in a car accident in 1996, and Donald subsequently was placed in a foster home. I had two children, a daughter who was a doctor, and I had a son, Donald Martin, the second. He died at the age of 23 in 1996. At the time he died, he had a son, which was born out of wetlock. The baby was 16 months old. After, well, in 2001, the winter of 2001,

his mother has four children. The baby's mother, Donald the third, has four children. Each one has a different father. Only one child was by my son, and she had married recently. Her husband was very abusive to the children, especially to the older girl who is now 13, and that is why the children were removed from the home, because she felt to protect her children from this abusive man. I had been working with the social workers. I knew that the children were going to be removed, and I immediately wanted to have my custody of my grandson. I did not want him to be in foster care. I worked with the social workers.

When they removed the children from the home, there is always a court hearing that has to be held within 72 hours after a child is removed. When we went to court, the judge's decision was to delay his decision for a placement for 30 days. That was to allow the system a chance to do background checks, because I was going to take Donald, and the maternal grandmother was going to take the other three children, but they had to do background checks on us, and subsequently my grandchild had to be in foster home for 30 days. Right before I knew he was going to be removed, I always told him my phone number and my address, and I told him, maybe if you're ever getting trouble, just call me,

and Grandma will see about you. Once he was in foster home, I didn't know where he was at first, but he was with some very nice people. He called him to call me because he was crying. He was five years old at the time, and he called me and I never will forget the call, because he said, Grandma, I'm at some people's house. I don't know them, and they don't know me with some strangers. Will you come and get me? Well, of course, I couldn't, I was thankful that the people did, they let him call me periodically. Once Donald was placed in a foster home, I'll birth a reactor like many other grandparents and sought custody of her grandson. I'm not saying the other routes would have been, would not have been as good for him, but I didn't even have to think about it. He's my flesh and blood,

he's my grandchild, and I was in a position to take care of him, and I felt that I could take care of him, as well as anybody, nobody could love him more than I did. I have four grandchildren, I love them all, and if I can do anything to keep them out of foster home, I mean, I just didn't even think about it twice. Normally, in the state of Kansas, a case is terminated after 12 to 15 months, but for some reason or the other, this case just went on and on, and I had, Donald, it was like in one week from being two years, which normally termination takes place a lot sooner than that. And so once we had, once I had him for a year, I just knew that eventually,

I was going to be a water custody of him. He was placed in my home June 15, 2001, and the final time we went to court was June 16, so that's a year and a day. So that's when the judge awarded him to his mother, because she had met the court stipulations, which were to have stable employment, stable housing, as she had to attend some anger management classes. Alberta's experience is not uncommon in Kansas family courts, where the natural parents have a legal advantage over grandparents in custody cases. Sometimes I think that some of the courts tend to favor the natural guardians to the detriment of some of the children. I understand that parents have rights, but I believe that children should have rights to grow up in safe stable environments. And a lot of time that doesn't happen,

because all the parent has to do is then come back in and say, hey, I've been working now for the last two years. I'm clean and sober, and a child may have lived with a grandparents for 13 years, and if the court determines that the parents now fit to raise the child, they can turn the guardianship around, or terminate the guardianship, and the parents can have the child back. So that's no different, really, than ripping a child out of an adoption or anything else, because of the bond they have with the grandparents. The only birthday now, Alberta is embittered with the legal system, and wrestles with a difficult situation, as she tries to maintain a relationship with her grandson. It is very, very emotional, and I think he's really glad to be with his mother. Most children love their mother, you know, regardless. They love their parents unconditionally,

but I am very worried, and I'm very concerned about his well-being. Right now, like I mentioned before, his mothers are going to have lots and lots of support, and she will do the things that she's supposed to do because she has someone watching over her, but this is only going to last for a year. And so once the support is gone, I fear that she will go back to her old ways. The anger, most of my anger, is directed toward our legal system, not so much toward the mother, because the legal system is the entity that returned the children to the mother. And it's very hard to deal with the anger,

you know, I've just really had to pride the wit, and I know that I need to keep open communications with his mother so that I will always know what's going on in his life, and I feel that if I keep these communications open with her, overcome my anger, because I'm a little bit angry at her for not doing what she's supposed to do. And in my heart, I know she's not going to be able to maintain. So just prayer and keep in communications with this person that I don't particularly care to keep communications with, and try to have patience with her, and against the way I feel, I need to be a support person. It requires more patience. It requires more patience than I have.

I don't have the patience to deal with her, but I love my grandchild so much that I'm going to do whatever I need to do to make sure that he is as okay as he can be. If it's anything I can do to change it, I have to put my personal feelings aside. And that's the only way I'm going to be able to keep up with his progress and his well-being. Despite the heartbreaking outcome and the difficult adjustment to taking a young child into her home, Alberta is convinced she did the right thing. It is a big change because grandparents, like as a grandparent, I think you should be able to love your children and spoil them and send them home and get them when you want them, or babysit for your children if they need you to, but usually you will be in charge of when you want it

to keep this child overnight or for a weekend. And all of a sudden when you're face with having a primary care for a child, that's a grandchild, I guess the main concern is your older, you wonder if your health is going to remain okay and if you'll be able to keep this child, careful this child, if your health will permit you to do that, you know for a however long it would take. The issue of their own mortality is a harsh reality for grandparents who raise their grandchildren. A major concern is whether they will live long enough to carry out their new parental responsibilities, a concern also shared by their grandchildren. Same with Cody, I wanted to try to brush through the schools, let them be able to see me graduate. She says she wants to stay alive

till I get out of high school, kind of hopes she says until he's got to college. I hope you've enjoyed the first half of this special program on grandparents raising grandchildren. I want to thank the grandparents who told us their stories about the joys and challenges of raising their grandchildren. It's not always the same. I hope you've enjoyed the first half of this special program on grandparents raising grandchildren. I want to thank the grandparents who told us their stories about the joys and challenges of raising their grandchildren. It's not always easy to talk openly about our private lives and yet we know it is helpful for others to hear those stories and know they are not alone and that help is available. We at AARP Kansas are proud to sponsor this program in conjunction with Kansas Public Television and with assistance from Kansas Action for Children. Thank you to have information and assistance

in finding resources and AARP Kansas stands ready to help. I encourage you to continue watching as a panel of experts discusses the implications of this important social phenomenon. Also, you may call the numbers on your screen at any time during the program and request printed materials with more information or you may email us at askatkpts.org That's ASK at kpts.org. Again, thank you for watching Parenting Again. Grandparents raising grandchildren. Good evening and welcome to the second half of our Grandparents Day special. Parenting again, grandparents raising grandchildren. I'm the Elgota Public Affairs Editor at Kpts in Wichita and I'd like to welcome our audiences on Kpts

and also KTWU in Topeka and Smoky Hills Public Television serving Central and Western Kansas. We'll spend the next half hour talking with our panel of experts on this growing social phenomena of grandparents raising grandchildren. But before we meet them, I'd again remind you that you may call the phone numbers on the screen and request additional information compiled by AARP Kansas. Our volunteers will take your name and address and they'll send you phone numbers and addresses of key agencies as well as other useful background information. And we'd also welcome any other comments you may have about tonight's program. The phone numbers are 1-800-794-8498 or if you're calling from the Wichita area, you may dial 436-5787. If it's easier for you, you may also contact us by email. Our address is ask at kpts.org. That's ASK at kpts.org. Now let's meet our panel. Joining us tonight are Amy Goyer,

coordinator of the AARP Grandparent Information Center at the National AARP Office in Washington, D.C. Gary Brunk is Executive Director of Kansas Action for Children. B.J. Gore, state-wide coordinator of the Grandparent Kinship Program of the Kansas Children's Service League. And David Johnson is a Wichita attorney specializing in family law. I want to thank you all for joining us. I'll begin with Amy from a national perspective and from a Kansas perspective. This is an amazing phenomenon taking place. What do we know about it? Why is it happening? And what does it mean for public policy? Well, we certainly have seen a notable increase in the number of children being raised and Grandparent had at households. The census data tells us from 1990 to 2000 there was a 30% increase nationwide. That has been getting the attention of a lot of policy makers. And I know in Kansas there was even higher increase. I believe a 43% increase during that time period.

One of the things that shows us that the policy makers are paying attention to this issue is that the census for the first time in 2000 had a question asking about the grandparents. How many grandparents are actually responsible for most of the basic needs of the grandchildren that live with them. And we found 2.4 million nationally are in that position. So we look at what are the needs and the issues. And clearly grandparents face legal issues, financial issues, health insurance and health care, education, all of these issues lead us to public policy in some way or another, whether they're consent laws or guardianship laws, those sorts of things. Very good. Well, let's get a little better description of Kansas itself. Gary Brunk, Kansas Action for Children. In a timely fashion released its report this week on grandparents raising grandchildren. What more do we know about the numbers and the data for Kansas? Well, Amy noted that there's been a 43% increase over the period of the 90s in Kansas.

What that means in specific numbers is that right now we have something like 19,000 grandparents in Kansas taking care of around 29,000 kids. And these are children living with them so that they're the primary care takers. I note that because we have a lot of other grandparents who have major responsibilities. The grandchildren might not be living with them. I think a couple of things are important to note. Although most of them are married families, married grandparents, about a quarter of them, more than a quarter or single parent families those are largely grandmothers. A significant number of which are facing real financial difficulties. About a fifth of single grandmothers taking care of kids in Kansas. Let me say that in a different way. About a fifth of grandparents taking care of kids in Kansas lived with a poverty line. So there's really economic issues that these families face. BJ, tell us, first of all, what is the grandparent kinship program of the Kansas Children's Service League? And then what can you add to the description of this phenomenon in Kansas? Kansas Children's Service League offers a support group system

that we network through the state of Kansas and helping to provide support for grandparents or relatives who are raising children. We provide the technical support in terms of educational information, community resources that are available, and helping them to connect to those community resources. What I'm seeing in the state of Kansas, and I have to agree with both Amy and Gary, is a lot of grandparents are facing issues that they didn't expect to face at this point in their life. The legal issues, some are seeking visitation rights, some are wanting to see if they need to adopt, or they need to be in the custody piece of it. They're facing the insurance cost, financial cost, those types of things. Okay, and I'd remind our viewers at this point, those telephone numbers are there for you to call. There are volunteers there that will refer you to information and will send out information dealing with this important topic. Good background information, numbers, telephone numbers about these various agencies that are represented here.

David, as a lawyer, this often plays out not always, but often there's a courtroom scenario that takes place here. And as the numbers have increased, what do we know what's going on in Kansas courtroom? Well, there's a number of different procedures that a grandparent can pursue if they see a situation where either their grandchild is not being properly taken care of in the home of perhaps their child or perhaps a former stepdaughter, or excuse me, daughter-in-law or son-in-law, within the realm of what I ordinarily practice, which is the family law area, there's two basic laws that a grandparent can pursue. One is within the context of a divorce case or a post-divorce case, which allows a grandparent to come in, ask the court to award visitation. The other is a separate statute that actually allows a grandparent where the nuclear family is still intact

to also ask for visitation. Within either context, due to a United States Supreme Court case that took place in the year 2000, which was called Troxel versus Granville, the court in Kansas in following that decision, as well as the courts of every state, are basically required to give due deference to the parental preference doctrine, which states that assuming a parent is fit, that parent has the right to make decisions in the best interest of the child. So the two-step process that a grandparent would be looking at in either context, pending divorce, or even where there's an intact nuclear family is, they've got, first, the burden of going in and showing that there has been a substantial relationship existing between that grandparent and the grandchild, and second, that the visitation they're asking for would best serve the interest of the child. Let me ask in the preceding program,

the story of Elberto Martin, who had custody of her child, there's a court proceeding that takes place. It's her daughter-in-law that is seeking custody back. Elberto thinks the daughter isn't confident to have the child. The court says otherwise. How common is that? And is there another part of the documentary, the attorney from DePica mentioned, that perhaps the courts lean too much towards the parents in some of those cases? That's a real fine line. Does that come up often? And is there a problem there? It does. It's actually the classic clash, so to speak, in these kind of cases, because we do have nationwide, and it's all the way down from our Constitution, essentially a derived right, which states that parents, basically, over and above anyone else, has the right to make decisions in the best interest of their children, provided those parents are fit. And so the question in the excerpt from the documentary basically boils down to the ongoing jurisdiction of the court

to continually modify preexisting custody or visitation orders. And if there is a continuation of that process where the court looks at the mom versus the grandmother, they have to balance out the parental preference doctrine, the right of parents, to generally have custody of their children, versus what's best for the child. And in that case, those two interests seem to be competing. Okay, let me ask, well, B.J., you look at the state as a whole, you see all these cases, how common is that? And what other considerations are there? Obviously, there's a legal battle that might take place, but what are the other dynamics that unfold as a grandparent thinks about taking on this responsibility? I think the biggest one is a financial piece. A lot of grandparents are not aware that there is financial help available, say, through TANF benefits. A lot of times they're afraid to reach out for that, but those funds are available.

I think another issue that grandparents deal with is just the changing role. They are now moving from the grandparenting role into the role of a parent. And so that can be very scary, and it can be very frustrating for them. And again, it changes the dynamics within that family between the grandparents and the parent of the child now that the grandparent is raising. Gary, what more from the data in your study? What are the other elements that are prominent in here that should be considered? We've always had grandparents involved in the care of grandchildren, but now we've seen the beginning of this phase, where the numbers are so great, and the legal parameters perhaps changed. What's changed about the, I guess, the legal statutory political climate about grandparents? Well, could I just follow up with something that B.J., which I think is a very important point? We have a lot of kids in foster care in Kansas, and in the adoption system. Kansas Legal Services has a toll-free help line that grandparents, foster parents, other families that have kids that are in some way involved in the child welfare system can call for help.

And we recently did a report on the calls that came in during 2002. The largest number of people calling were grandparents, and it was about these legal and custody issues. And I underscored it because it's on the one hand, as B.J. pointed out, a financial issue. But it's also an issue about access to legal services. Most grandparents desperately need good legal advice, and many of them can't afford it. And so in terms of an area of public policy, I think that's an area that we need to be looking at. How can we help grandparents have the kind of legal advice that'll make them able to participate in the court system and gain custody of grandchildren if that's appropriate? Amy, as from a national perspective, I'm sure there's an agenda. AARP would look at that reflects the concerns of grandparents and this whole scenario about what rights they have, what resources they have, what is that agenda? Is there something nationally that's in place? Well, in terms of the grandparents who are raising their grandchildren, AARP is concerned with our members in terms of their ability to get legal assistance.

As you say, we see that across the country. We want to make sure that grandparents have the ability to ensure their grandchildren provide health insurance. So that's something that's important to us. And most of these laws are state laws, quite a few of them are. And so our state offices look at what's happening in their state, what legislation there is, what's pending, what needs to be there. And whether it be looking at subsidized guardianship programs, whether it be looking at education or medical consent laws, those are the kinds of things that we're looking at. In the course of our research and during the program, it was articulated the three major reasons for this circumstance on poll is that either the child, the natural parent, is a drug problem and is incapable, is in jail, it's a criminal justice system intervening, or had a child far too young to take care of it. Does that, the premier experience, reflect what, are there other reasons that are a place

or that should be mentioned in this? Actually, I know that from the calls that we get at the Grand Parent Information Center across the country, substance abuse is the number one thing that we hear about. But coming in close second is mental illness and an ability of parents to actually raise their children. Which could be a maturity thing, but maybe something broader than that. It could be, that's right, it's a variety of things. And many times there are a lot of overlaps. You may have substance abuse problem as well as mental illness, maybe incarceration as well. But then also just divorce. Team pregnancy, as you mentioned, but HIV AIDS is another large reason, child abuse and neglect. And one of the things we've heard about recently a lot is military deployment, where the parents are either a single mother or father is deployed and the Grand Parent step in. Or if both parents are in the military and they're gone. And that's a scary situation as well, because they don't know, are they going to be coming back or not? I'm flowing from the data that shows if substance abuse

is the number one cause of this taking place, another roundification of that appears to be that these children often have behavioral problems as the consequence of being raised in homes, the one case in the documentary that the children were addicted at birth, but virtue of the mother being an addict. Behavioral problems for these children is something that grandparents may not anticipate. B.J. is at the case. Very true. We hear this from a lot of our grandparents who are raising grandchildren. It's the emotional baggage that usually these children bring with them, and they struggle with that. And that's why it's important that they have access to the different community resources that are available out there. In judging whether or not the child is in a fifth situation, it seems like there's a fine line. Maybe David, you're the person to answer this. The grandparents think, you know, they're just not giving the child a bath enough, they're not reading in the right books, as opposed to the parents on drugs and they're leaving them in a rat infested. But is there, if you get to a gray area where the courts got a real tough call, is this just grandparental meddling or is this a sincere problem? That's exactly the problem that our judges have to look at.

I would say the latter scenario is closer to a description of a finding of unfitness than the former drug addicted, rat infested dwellings. Those cases come up quite frequently in our juvenile court system here in Sedgwick County in what is called child-needed care cases. And sometimes grandparents are people that come in and step into that process and ask for placement in the event the court winds up terminating parental rights. Our judges in the domestic family law court are generally fairly reluctant to make a determination that a parent is unfit. It takes some fairly significant facts, some fairly significant problems for the court to take that drastic and fairly permanent step. At that point, let me ask, B.J., is that a good thing? The state has had an emphasis on family preservation. Gary's familiar with that, I'm sure, the last almost a decade where we don't want to take children out of the home.

But is there a diminishing returns or a compromise at some point by following that policy that puts the child at risk? I think the state really tries in a very hard way to try to preserve that family. There's a lot of effort into family preservation working with those families very closely through parent support groups, parent education, those types of things. I think it has to be looked at in terms of the risk of the child and again it's up to the judge to make that determination. But I think the state really does try to do a very good job of making sure that they're looking at what's in the best interest of the child. I might just add to that that the majority of the grandparents that we speak with think it's going to be a temporary situation. They think that I'm going to take the children for a while and my daughter is going to get their lives together and they're going to be able to have them back in their home. And in some cases that does work out. But in many cases it turns into years and years and a lifetime.

And you reported this thing. Well exactly, I just wanted to underscore that point. What we see in Kansas is that in over a third of the cases of grandparents having grandchildren living with them, those grandkids have been with them for five years or more. In almost half of the cases they've been there for three years or more. So Amy is absolutely right. This is not a temporary arrangement. In some cases it's a very long term arrangement. And if I could comment on what B.J. was just talking about in terms of family preservation. I do think that Kansas tries to preserve families. But family preservation in Kansas, as in many parts of the country, is really an intervention. It doesn't get to families early enough and with the kind of intensity that we need. For other rhetoric about families in this country, in some ways we're still profoundly not very family friendly. And we need to do a lot more work to support families. I think that a lot of families deal with economic stress that was often not acknowledged. And the result of that is that, and the reason for that is because we just have a lot of jobs in this country

where we're not paying parents enough to support their families. And part of the problem that we have with divorce and family dissolution in this country is about family stress. We need to do a better job of supporting families economically. In that regard, one of the things that our court, at least in the family law connection, where there's been a divorce or perhaps a paternity case, and which our court system here in Central County has been very proactive with for the last 18 years, is to route families, parents, and even where grandparents come in, and in pursuit of trying to resolve a problem that they perceive, directing those families into what's called mediation, which is where they go to a neutral counselor or a lawyer who's trained in that process with the idea of being to facilitate a resolution that's not imposed upon them by a court. And at least in Central County, our success rate with families being referred into mediation is 70%, which is very high, and I think it's very good.

Mary Corrigan, which state university professor in the documentary, made the point that there isn't much known about this phenomena. We have the numbers, but what's not there is an analysis of the quality of care, the outcomes for the child. There really hasn't been that kind of intense research. Do we need to do that? Or should that get to be, is it a given that a child in the care of a grandparent is going to be better off than in foster care? What kind of push should we have for data like that? I think we need to do a lot more research in that arena. I know that Kansas right now is putting a lot of emphasis in placing in terms of the foster care children in placing those in the care of the grandparents or relatives raising grandchildren. But I think along with that, they need to make sure that the other elements such as financial support, parent education support, parent support, those types of elements are in place to make sure and guarantee that those children are in a healthy environment.

Is there something nationally in that regard? There have been some studies, short-term studies about, are the children better off living with a grandparent or are they better off living with a foster family or what grandparents would say, strangers? And one of the things that it's shown is that the continuity is very helpful with the children just of having a family connection. And there have been some studies, I would like to see more long-term studies and larger studies that aren't just sort of a few case studies, more quantitative kind of research. But we know that what these kids need more than anything else is stability in their lives. The ideal situation is for them to be with their parents, their birth parents. When that's not possible, I think that if there can be with kin, with aunts or uncles or with grandparents, that's in most cases the best thing for kids. Obviously there are circumstances where that wouldn't be the case.

But as much as possible, we need to maintain the continuity that Amy was talking about in these kids' lives. And it's more, we do that better if they can be with grandparents. So the task is let's do the best job that we can to support grandparents. These folks we talk to seem to be very independent. They have to be to have that mindset you're retired. I'm going to take on being a parent and it's kind of like you've got to have a certain amount of drive to do that. And the idea of them needing a lot of support, we didn't hear that. I know that's there, but these folks don't necessarily say that. But what support needs to be there for people like this? Maybe they don't even know that they need it or that they should be taking advantage of it. What else should be there for these folks? Amy? Well, what we find is, as you say, many grandparents who are put in this situation have never asked for help for anything in their lives. They're not, you know, used to going to get assistance from the state, financial, legal, even emotional support. But they find that they do need it.

And I think they need information. First of all, they need accurate information. They need to be able to get it. They need to know what are my legal options. As you've mentioned, they don't even know that there might be financial assistance out there. So they need that information as the first thing that we find out that they need. And then they need the emotional support and the talking to someone else in a similar situation. But they need concrete assistance in terms of respite care. They need a break. They need to be able to go to the doctor when they need to. That kind of assistance, as well as the legal, the financial, the education assistance, mentoring for their grandchildren, all of those things that come together. And that comment, along with the polling off the background, reminds us that the numbers are on your screen for you to call and get some of that information. So feel free during the courses program or even after the program is concluded to call us or email that and get more of that information. All of those kinds of services that Amy described, there are numbers and reference points for you to learn about that.

So feel free to call and talk to our volunteers. During your study about Kansas, most of the grandparents, I forget the percentage, but it's the preponderance of them, are in the age group 45 to 64. Obviously, the younger you get in that you are and you start this, the better off. The two in our scenarios were at more advanced age, 70 and 80. And there's a real question then about how do you plan for the care of a child when your own mortality is going to be an issue. What should grandparents do that's different from parents to deal with the financial planning to take care of their child? Anybody have any idea on that? Well, in that regard, I suppose legally, assuming for the moment that it's gone beyond the step of a grandparent merely having visitation and that actually custody has been placed maybe through a guardianship and conservatorship proceeding in probate court, I assume the grandparent would obviously first want to have a will that designates someone else to assume the guardianship responsibilities upon their death. Again, assuming that the grandchild is more likely than not going to still be a minor and then prepping the extended family if there's anyone else they're available to let them know that or prepare for the process that someone else is going to have to take over, which again is a sad thing for a child to have to go through that.

But I guess it's the lesser of the evils in my view at least. Our research with grandchildren has shown that that's one of their fears that something will happen to grandma or grandpa. So it is somewhat helpful to have that done and planned ahead of time. Some states have stand by guardianship laws where you can designate a person who would stand by to be the guardian in the case that you became incapacitated. And that's a helpful thing to do as well. What does it say about our foster care system? Most of these parents that we talk to, they intervene because if it's not that the child is going into foster care and they almost see that as a kind of a slippery slope going down to something worse. Gary, there's been a lot of coverage about the foster care system and Kansas concerns about how it's run, how effective it is.

Does it need to be improved along with this? The bottom line is that foster care is not the best alternative for kids. We know that kids in foster care face a life as adults where they're much less apt to be successful compared to other kids. They're more likely to end up in jail, more likely to not be able to make a living, less likely to get a good education. So foster care is just not good in general for kids. Unless some kids need to be in foster care. That's the only alternative that we have. And we have to continue improving the system. I think that it has improved somewhat in Kansas, but we got a long ways to go. And I would note, in Alberta's comments, she had custody of her grandson, but unlike a foster parent, if she was a foster parent, she would be paid by the state. A grant parent doesn't get that payment. B.J. is that necessarily common? Is that make any sense that if the grant parent is going to take them on a temporary basis, shouldn't they be paid as foster care parents, but they're not? Well, they are eligible for TANF benefits.

And TANF is a temporary assistance. It used to be aid to dependent children. Right. And they are eligible for that. Those children can receive the TANF benefits along with the medical cards. So that is monthly income that the grant parents has access to. So in Kansas, there's also a subsidized guardianship program, but the grant parents, you know, and there are certain qualifications for that. But you can note that those families, the children receive less funds than if they were in foster care. Right. So then, grandparents say, you know, why just a stranger is raising this child? Why, you know, I need to say that. Quickly in the last minute, what's your sense about? Is this the tip of the iceberg? The huge increase, 47%. Is there another plateau of folks that could just as easily be in the circumstance, or have we tap most of them? What do you think, B.J.? I think we're going to see an increase. I think there's many more grandparents out there raising grandchildren that we're not even aware of. They're just now beginning to step forward. And I think with the military situation, just with the dynamics of what's going on, I think we're going to see more grandparents raising grandchildren. Okay. Well, that's all the time we have on a thank you for joining us. I'd like to thank all the folks who called in and received that reference information.

Again, feel free to contact us even after the program, the email address is available for you to use at any time. And you can call KPTS at any point for more of this information as well as AARP. We'll leave you with a couple of phone numbers on the screen that you may also contact for more information. Thanks for joining us and good night. Thank you very much. Thank you.