The Thomas Jefferson Hour; #0345; Alexander Hamilton

The New Thomas Jefferson Hour is produced by High Plains Public Radio and New Enlightenment Radio Network, a non-profit organization dedicated to the search for truth in the tradition of Thomas Jefferson. Welcome to the New Thomas Jefferson Hour, a weekly conversation with the third president of the United States. Please join us as our host Bill Crystal speaks with Thomas Jefferson, portrayed by Humanities scholar Clay Jenkinson. Good day citizens and welcome to the Thomas Jefferson Hour. I'm Thomas Jefferson, the third president of the United States and today I have a special guest, Colonel Alexander Hamilton. Colonel Hamilton was born in the Caribbean. He came to this country as a young man. He soon attached himself to what he liked to call the wise, the rich and the well-born. He rose by the sheer force of his capacity, indeed his genius, to become one of the most important members of the founding generation. He played a pivotal role at the Constitutional Convention in the summer of 1787 and even a more important role in promoting the ratification of the new Constitution of the United States.

He was an aide to camp to General Washington and he was the first Secretary of Treasury in the United States. Please welcome Mr. Alexander Hamilton, welcome sir. Thank you sir, it's nice to be with you. You know we have quarreled in the past and I think everyone who is listening knows that your vision of America is radically different from my own. Perhaps some of that will come up later in our discussion. But I would like to begin by asking you some questions about your life, your biography and I hope you will indulge me with an unusual level of candor. I shall endeavor to do so sir. I think that perhaps your listeners often will assume that our political differences must mean that we had an intense personal dislike and this is not entirely true. As you have said before we were gentlemen and we would behave civilly, civil in each other's company if we would disagree radically on politics. Indeed, in fact I tried and I think you did too to keep your private social life separate from the political wrangling of the day.

It was a relatively small community of leaders. We were confined with each other both in council and in social gatherings a great deal of the time and it was essential to the harmony of American society that we were able to get on with each other and to toast each other even and walk arm in arm at times. And it was the most foolish mistake of my life that I made twice in which I published on my private life widely, it damaged me enormously so you are correct in this. We will come back of course to what I would see as rash, urge for self-revelation in public papers but let's begin with your origins. Some people have said some nasty things about your birth. Perhaps you can tell your own story of your beginnings. Well, it is as I myself said that my birth was not without blemish. I was born in the Caribbean on the island of Nevis, raised in St. Croix, in desperate poverty and while it is true that my parents were married I must confess that it was not to one another. They were in love with each other but they were not able to marry because my mother's

first husband was a man who was a brute. He beat her, he was cruel and indeed on one occasion had her thrown into prison when he displeased her simply on the charge of whoring with everyone. They had one natural child and my mother ultimately left her first husband and fell in love with my father who was a kind man but not a responsible man. He, when I was a very young child, went away for a voyage of perhaps three months to seek his fortune and didn't return for 30 years. And so I was essentially raised by a mother and none other, my brother and I, my brother James. We were at the bottom end of a social spectrum which involved 25,000 slaves on the island, 600 whites and we were at the bottom of white society. And my mother died when I was but nine. We both were taken with Agu with what you would today call a fever. We received the most modern medical treatment available. We were both bled regularly, I recovered but my mother did not.

And at this time, her first husband reappeared to claim what in the eyes of the law, if not in the eyes of proper morals, was the inheritance of the legitimate son Peter which was everything that my mother owned, her shop, her wares and ironically a couple of slaves. And we were left my brother and I with nothing. He was apprenticed to a carpenter eye and the great first great good fortune of my life to a merchant man named Nicholas Kruger. Let me stop you there sir, we're talking with Alexander Hamilton, the secretary of the treasury of the United States, the principal or at least one of the authors of the Federalist papers and a man who worked as the aide to camp for our greatest national figure, George Washington. Your mother died when you were nine, your father didn't reappear in your life until decades later. Did you regard your mother as a fallen woman? Indeed not, it was, it was awkward certainly to be as Mr. Adams so colorfully called me, the bastard brat of a Scotch peddler, although I did comment that as the grandson of a Scottish

lair, my father may have been a scallywag, but he was actually the descendant of landed aristocracy. I said that I had better pretensions than those in this country who plume themselves on ancestry. But I did in fact regard my mother lovingly, she attempted to obtain what education she could. I was sent to a Hebrew school briefly, but our situation was so desperate that essentially if it had not been for my own, I flatter myself my brilliance and capabilities, I would have been destined for a life of poverty in the Caribbean. No, Hebrew school, I know you're not a Jewish man. Indeed not. And it was the only school available to someone of our social class. I see. And do you have any particular memories of your young life before you met Mr. Krueger? Not a great many. It was in time of my life that I do not seek to recall. It was a time of poverty. It was a time of assisting my mother and my brother in the shop selling small trifles to traders as they would travel through the area.

It was a time of poverty and frustration. We did receive a magnificent hurricane. I wrote a hurricane report which was published at the time talking about the tremendous crashing of the waves and the winds and it was a lyrical report on a terrible storm and it attracted the eye of a number of readers who realized that this was perhaps a young man who was capable of more than selling lumps of coal. Now there has been a rumor that has been persistent in the United States in my time and yours that George Washington was your father. That Washington had been in the Caribbean and that he had been the man who brought you into this world. Do you have anything to say about that? Well, there's nothing to the story, sir. It would have been my high honor to be his son. I will say that in our lives he was truly a father figure to me. I believe he thought of me in the ways that many fathers think of their sons. But as to blood relations, this was a story circulated that had no merit. Now, one of the questions that has always been rooted about about you is what your natural

affiliation is. You know, I was a Virginian and I was born in what became the United States. Is a young lad in the Caribbean what nationality would you have claimed? It is true that I was born outside what would one day become the United States and I would I suppose been called a British citizen, but I would suggest to you, sir, that what some people have called a criticism, my foreign birth, was in fact one of the great strengths and advantages that I had as a founding father. I was untied to this nonsensical notion of a home state. I had no quasi-religious affection for a small patch of land, which was not my entire nation. Indeed, sir, I believe you wrote once that it is a difficult thing to be 300 miles from one's own country. You wrote that, sir, while you were in Philadelphia, speaking of Virginia. This is a burden to be overcome when one is attempting to go from the concept of the United States R to the United States is.

I won't quarrel with you, Colonel Hamilton, because I'm trying to find out more about your beginnings, but I will say that I do consider myself to be an American, of course, in a citizen of the United States, and in fact one of the founders of the United States. But let's go back to your childhood now, you're in poverty, and there's no father in your world. Your mother is dead. You are at loose ends. One can imagine you, whatever you're genius, languishing forever on this tiny island world in the Caribbean. How is it that you came to this country? Well, it was, as I say, the great blessing of Nicholas Krueger and the Reverend Hugh Knox, a Presbyterian minister in the islands, who recognized my capabilities and believed that it was essential I become educated, and they believed this because I demonstrated in working for Mr. Krueger, a remarkable talent for a child at my age. By the time I was but 12, I was managing his, what you would say, I suppose, in the day of your listeners, an import export company, during his absences in the United States,

or the colonies at the time, I would barter with sea captains, I would complete bills of lading, I would be in charge of the entire business, I'd manage the books, I'd manage the orders. Indeed, when a captain would attempt to take advantage of us or a merchant in the colonies, I would deal with him. In one case, I wrote that the flower recently sent, and I said, it could not have been very fresh when shipped for the bakers in this town, cannot by any means get it to rise, and it has a kind of worm about his service, it could not have been very fresh when shipped. This was recognized as something that must be taken advantage of, and so efforts were made to send me to the United States or the colonies, and in 1773, I sailed on the ship Thunderbolt. The intention was to enroll me in what was then known as the College of New Jersey, today known as Princeton University. Obviously, I could not attend a university without having had some formal schooling, and so I went to Elizabethtown, New Jersey, and entered the Elizabethtown Academy, where I studied for nine months to prepare myself for college.

How old are you now? I was 16. And did Kruger and Knox send you there with the idea that you would return to the Caribbean? The thought was there. I had a certain natural aptitude toward medicine, and the thought was perhaps that I would become a physician in return. But in my heart, I will admit that I never intended to return to that ghastly place. So you come to this country and you enter the Academy and you're on your way theoretically at least to the College of New Jersey. Indeed, like you. I'm reading ten hours a day in preparation. And I then visited the Reverend Witherspoon, the president of the College of New Jersey. And I made of him a request for my admission, and your listeners will soon learn that I am not a modest man. Because I said to the Reverend, essentially- One of the great intellectuals of the colonial period. Oh, indeed, indeed. A thinker and a scholar. And I said, sir, I wish admission to your College, but I wish admission is a student of special status. I wish this because I am simply better than the students you have had. I wish to take the classes that I desire in the order I desire, in the manner I desire,

and when I am finished with your university, I shall inform you, and you may award me my parchment. No. John Adams would say, what a saucy puppy you are. How could you speak so boldly to a man of such distinguished airy addition? Well, two things, sir. I was brilliant as you yourself acknowledged, and I was but sixteen or seventeen. And I had the enthusiasm of youth behind me. I take it that Witherspoon's reaction was not a pleasant one. Indeed, you are an error. He recognized my genius, and he approached the Board of Trustees and encouraged them to accept me as a student of special status. But the Board of Trustees remembered a young man three or four years earlier who had done the same thing. He had been a student of special status, perhaps not as capable as myself, but he had rushed through his coursework. And the result had been a nervous breakdown, certainly after his graduation, a crushing blow to this young man. And the Board of Trustees were unwilling to allow the risk of a second mental collapse because that's just the thing. I think you know the gentleman, sir. His name was James Madison.

Yes, indeed. One of the best educated men in the United States. Well indeed. So I was turned down at King's Day University in New Jersey, and I turned my attention instead to King's College, which in your listeners day is known as Columbia University. And I approached Miles Cooper, the president, and made him the same request of my short and schooling of my special desires. And he agreed for my admission. I will admit that I never did finish my college at that school because after beginning I became quickly swept up in revolutionary rhetoric, began writing and publishing, and soon went to war to fight for this nation's liberty. And in the briefest compass, tell us what your contribution in the field of battle was during the war of independence. Well I had, I flatter myself, several important aspects. On the 23rd of August, 1775, I led a group which we called ourselves the Corsicans. We drilled in a church yard and had green hats, as I recall, with the emblem, liberty or death sewn on them. And under the fire of HMS Asia, we rescued 239-pound cannon from battery point in New York to prevent them falling into British hands, and my first taste of combat, what year would

this have been? 75. So early on in the conflict. Indeed, indeed. I was but a captain of artillery at this point. And do you know General Washington by now? I do not yet. At this point, I am still a member of the New York units, but I flatter myself yet again, my reputation began to grow, and I twice turned down major generals who wished me to become their aid to camp. However, eventually the request came from General Washington. Without his having met you? Indeed. And it was at that point necessary to, of course, accept a request from the commanding general. I became one of his aid to camps. He had a number. He had 32. But before we go on, please, I'm sorry to interrupt. Indeed. I'm trying to make sure that our listeners understand all of this. You have not yet met George Washington, but he's heard of your reputation. He's heard that you're a promising young man. He'd like you to service his aid to camp. Tell us what an aid to camp is, and what an aid to camp does. Well, it is a position which General Washington said this. He said, I need someone not only who can write for me, that is to say you must remember

that this war was fought with quill and parchment and couriers. And so the written communication, the reports, it was a laborious process, which is why he needed such a large staff simply to keep up with reports from the battlefields. And he said in his request to me that I need someone who can write for me, but also to think for me. Now, this is not quite what you might assume. It does not mean that he wished me to do things in his stead instead of him pondering these notions. And instead that he needed someone on whom he could rely to carry out his spirit if he, therefore, could be freed from many of the details. He would hand me tasks, orders to commanders, issues of supplies and moving of logistical support, knowing that I would do as he would have done had he the time to attend to each detail. And so I became one of his aids and quickly became the most important of them, the most trusted, the most capable, and stayed with him for nearly five full years. So for five years, you are in the field with him from one place to another, were you at Valley Forge?

I was. I was at Valley Forge. In fact, my language skills were useful at the Valley Forge and that Baron von Stuben, who, of course, as we know, was not truly a Baron, but we allowed him the title and his drilling of the troops. He spoke new English, so it would be trans, we would speak German and then translate into French and into English, but I was mostly with the general. And Mrs. Washington attended from time not at Valley Forge, of course, but at various camps. And it was a remarkable experience. Now as an aid to camp, I take it that you are not engaged in battle. No, sir. I was engaged on several occasions. I had horses twice shot from under me, because the general did send me on a number of missions. I once had to swim the school kill river to escape a British patrol after a particularly harrowing mission. I lost the horse on that occasion. I was involved at the Battle of Princeton, the Battle of Trenton, although I must correct. This is actually briefly before I went to work for the general. It is an interesting story, sir, if I may back up in time slightly. Now please do, sir. Well indeed, as a captain of artillery, I was found myself at the Battle of Princeton

with 68 cannon. And the British had occupied the one building on the College of New Jersey campus of any substance, a building called NASA Hall, which served as the head of that college, now again known as Princeton University. The university which had denied me admission, the university which had refused to accept my obviously reasonable request for an accelerated program. The British leadership was in NASA Hall. I had 68 cannon. What was I to do, sir? I suppose one might say that I did finally achieve in some measure an admission to Princeton University that day. You bombarded the College of New Jersey. I did, sir. Indeed, one of the cannonballs it has said passed through the portrait of George II hung on the wall, cleanly indicating a break from England was now required. Mr. Hamilton tempted, as I am to see that as a parable for your whole life, I will quickly move on. We're going to take a break in a minute. But let me ask you this, did you thirst for more action and less time as a secretary to George Washington?

Well indeed, I was a martial man. I enjoyed military conflict. I enjoyed commanding armies. But at the same time, I also recognized that options for advancement were not available to me that could be available to other gentlemen I might mention, advantages of birth and wealth. And so I saw the military as one of the few opportunities I had to better my station. And during this time you have not yet married? Indeed not. I wrote to my good friend and just about women I said, why should I desire that greatest of all plagues, a wife, but later did meet an amazing woman who I shared a wonderful 23 years with, who survived me by a full 50, wearing black each day for those half century, a remarkable woman named Elizabeth Schuyler. I need you all want to talk about that in a moment. Now, sir, we have been talking about your birth in the Caribbean, the unfortunate circumstances of your familial destiny, the way you impressed gentlemen of the Caribbean islands, the fact that they sent you off to this country to be educated, you're wrangling with witherspoon

and others about your education, eventually your work at King's College, now Columbia. And of course, the fact that even though you were born in relative obscurity, George Washington was told of your merit and sought you out and asked you to serve as his aid to camp what you did and did in a highly distinguished way. And I suppose it could be said that that created a connection between you and George Washington, the most important American, which lasted till his death on December 15, 1799. So when we come back from a short break, I want to ask you about the last years of the war and about your relationship with General Washington, about your marriage and particularly then, your work to create a constitutional society for the United States will take a short break, don't go away. For a $40 donation to the Thomas Jefferson Hour, you can own a video of Thomas Jefferson debating Alexander Hamilton for the soul of the nation, call 1-888-828-2853. Welcome back to the Thomas Jefferson Hour.

I'm the third president of the United States, Thomas Jefferson, and today I have with me Colonel Alexander Hamilton. We were adversaries in our political lives. What we stood for was diametrically opposed as we envisioned the future of this republic. We agreed on very few things. We both disliked Colonel Aaron Burr. We both greatly admired George Washington and beyond that, our relations are mostly characterized by difference and mutual distrust, but I've mentioned Washington and the fact that we both admired him. And you had a closer relationship to him than I did even though we were both Virginians, both horsemen, both slaveholders, both lovers of the American West. You had a relationship that I suppose was born of war and common experience in the field and his recognition of course of your capacities, which served you very well in this life. And I believe you said once that he was a kind of a security umbrella for you, tell us

what you actually thought of him, his character, his intellect, his fits of anger, his abilities as a general. Give us a little pen portrait of your view of George Washington. Well, it is true that we agree I think that he was the most remarkable of us all. And I did have a special relationship with him. I thought perhaps from time to time that it must have been especially frustrating for you, sir, that inevitably on issues of assumption, of issues of neutrality, he would bypass the advice of his brother Virginians and listen to the man from New York. Yes, you're anticipating the time that we were both in the cabinet of George Washington, but your impressions of him must have been established long before that. He was a remarkable man. Now I did say of him on one occasion. He was the most horrid swear and blasphemer. He was a man capable of stupifying rages, which indeed caused the only falling out of our time. A apopleptic rages, do you want to see it out? Yeah, it is awkward to discuss it without him here, but yes, indeed, I suppose one might say this. He was a man who felt his rages deeply, and he felt them on a number of occasions at generals who acted cowardly.

Only on the one occasion was it directed at me in April of 1781 on the stairs of the command. He passed me and said, Colonel Hamilton, I need you to attend to me. And I was in the process of delivering a note to Lafayette. And I said, I will be back in a moment, sir. And I took the note to Lafayette, who detained me for perhaps two minutes. Lafayette, the French. Indeed, a critically important member of our young man, very young, brilliant, committed to liberty had come over at his own expense. Indeed. To serve the cause of American independence, and he was a favorite of Washington. He was. He was. And it broke his heart, what followed his slight delaying of me. I returned to the base of the stairs to return and tend to the general. And he was standing at the head of the stairs, shaking with rage. And he said, Colonel Hamilton, I tell you, sir, you have kept me standing at the head of these stairs for these ten full minutes. I tell you, sir, you treat me with contempt. And I'm just guessing, knowing what I know of your character, that Washington's rage threw you into one. A quiet rage. The audience listening may not fully understand this concept.

It may sound as if the general was simply yelling at his subordinate. But he was fundamentally questioning my honor. Your character. My honor, my character, indeed, everything which was essential to me. And I said, in quiet, measured tones, sir, I did not intend it. But since you must mention it, we must part, meaning at that moment, I resigned from his staff. My goodness. That seems a little rash. You're dressed down for one little delay. Well, I would expect that you probably would not understand this, sir, having not served in the military. But this was at a front. It was a public affront in front of brother officers. And Lafayette was overcome with horror at what he had generated, a break between two of the closest partners of the revolution. Too many greatly admired. Now, might this, under other circumstances, have led to an affair of honor? It could have. Although, General Washington, even in my anger, I respected him so much, I cannot imagine ever challenging General Washington. Certainly, had it been Mr. Burr, Mr. Burr did serve as an aide to camp to General Washington. But he lasted not the five years of I.

He lasted a mere ten days when he was discovered to be opening and reading the General's private correspondence. Indeed, now, but our audience must surely be, some of them must surely be thinking that you've overreacted. After all, George Washington is almost single-handedly holding our little fragile army together under almost impossible conditions. The purveyors are not bringing him the goods he needs, including clothing and socks and shoes. People are deserting right and left, the money is coming in. If at all, from the reluctance states, very late, and he's radically underfunded the whole time, this is a man with burdens greater than most people in human history, greater, perhaps even than Julius Caesar at the height of his Gallic campaigns. He has an aide to camp that he depends upon as a subordinate. He you have kept him waiting, it may have been inadvertent, but you have kept a very great and important man waiting. He's a man of a high-tone temper, he's upset, and instead of just accepting this in a humble form, you threaten to resign.

Indeed. So, what did he do? Well, he, of course, the dye was cast, and our society at that time it would have been impossible for him to apologize, but I allowed myself to be modified, and I will admit that perhaps there was another factor involved. I had served as an aide for a very long time. I earnestly desired and felt that I had earned a combat command. I wished to get into the war again before it ended. And so, perhaps in hindsight, I would suggest that my willingness to resign was tempered by my desire to be out from under the command and out in the field. What is your thirst for battle? I mean, what is it that attracts you in the mayhem of warfare? The fighting for what you believe in, the willingness to put yourself at risk. For the principles you support. What about glory? I saw this as a glory seeker, a glory seeker. I will admit that I enjoyed the pomp of the office that I enjoyed it, but I think, sir, and I do not mean this as an attack.

I think that it is impossible for you as a man who ran to Carter's mountain when the British invaded Virginia, a man who avoided any conflict at all, a man who's had a womanly attachment to France. I think it's quite understandable that you would not understand why one finds the brotherhood of arms and almost hypnotic and enjoyable process. It is not glorious to kill, but it is glorious to be in the battle. Did you kill, are you conscious of having killed anyone? Indeed. I believe that my cannon on a number of occasions, I certainly hope, caused gravest injury to the British forces. I was the first man over the wall on the 14th of October, 1781 at the Battle of York Town. I ordered my men to remove the balls from their guns and fix bayonets because the reloading time would make the attack too slow. And I led them from the front, sir, indeed I killed, for my country. You know, I'm of Jonathan Swiss view, swift the author of Gulliver's Travels, who said that a soldier is a Yahoo who kills in cold blood as many people as possible who never offended

him. The killing. It implies the importance of our war, and I think it was a just war if there was one. But I do, I must tell you, I will agree with you as a civilian. I cannot find any way to understand what triumph one feels in shedding the blood of another man you never met. Well, sir, I will simply say this, it is true, I believe, in the day of your listeners that there remains an army willing to fight to protect your right, to not serve your country bravely. Well enough, you went to Yorktown then and tell us briefly what happened there. I was given a command, General Washington did give me a command under Lotha Yet, who graciously awarded me a portion of his unit. And in the climactic battle, a readout is a forward position, and these are the keys, these are the pivot points. The British had foolishly allowed themselves to be backed up against the sea, and the battle was won essentially, I flatter myself, when my forces took read out number 10, because

we were then in a position to turn the cannon around and fire down upon the British forces. And it was a remarkable battle, and it was, as you know, the climactic battle, the end of the war, except for a few small skirmishes in which my good friend John Lawrence in fact died, but that was essentially the end of the war. And did you witness the surrender of Cornwallis with the band playing the world turned upside down? Indeed, sir. It was a glorious moment. Now, I don't doubt your own heroism, I think that's well established, Mr. Hamilton, but isn't it actually the case that Yorktown was one, thanks to the French fleet? I mean, you despise the French, you belittle the French, you consider the French of no account, and yet the French alliance is, by all accounts, what won us our war of independence. I will grant the Lotha Yet, and some brother Frenchmen were important at Yorktown with the bottling up, the preventing of the retreat, but I would argue, sir, that the American revolution was won by Americans with the aid of the French, but we won our own liberties,

sir. Indeed. So the war is over, and you are no longer attached in a daily way to George Washington. I suppose it's time for you to seek your fortune and find a wife. Well, indeed, and it was a difficult decision. There was much available to me in career, but I will correct, sir, I was already married. I had, as a member of the military, met this remarkable family, the Skyler family, and this most remarkable of the daughter's Elizabeth. There were several daughters, they all found me, how shall I say this, they all were attracted to me and I to them, but Elizabeth was a remarkable woman. In a Skyler, I take it as a New York land speculator and industrialist, is that what you do? Well, the family, they were based in land, and it was a remarkable family. They achieved much. Father Philip was the first senator from New York. From New York.

And it was interesting, actually, that a family of that breeding of that character of that high status would allow their prized daughter to marry someone with my background. By a little puzzle, by that. Indeed, it was something I cannot imagine you would not be troubled if your daughter Martha had married an illegitimate man from the Caribbean, but it was Mr. Skyler's view that I was such a remarkable fellow that he was pleased to have me in the family. He was convinced that my character, that my capabilities far outweighed any shortcomings in my ancestry. And the young woman I take it was enamored of you. Indeed, sir, she was. Tell us about it. You wrote a little bit about the way a young man chooses a wife. Well, prior to meeting Elizabeth, I did, in fact, write to John Lawrence, a letter of whimsy. This is not an entirely serious effort, but I said, in a wife, I look for certain things. She must be young, handsome, I think. That's a beautiful, beautiful indeed, as she was. I lay most stress on a good shape, sensible, a little learning will do, well bred, chased and tender.

I am an enthusiast in my notions of fidelity and fondness. Of some good nature, of a great deal of generosity, she must either love money or scolding. In politics, I am indifferent to what side she may be of. I think I have arguments, which will easily convert her to mine. As to religion, a moderate stock will satisfy me. She must believe in God and hate a saint. As to fortune, the larger stock of that, the better in Elizabeth, I achieved much more than I could have imagined my whimsy letter. Well, I don't think anyone would ever call you a saint. But in retrospect, with the candor that comes from no longer being attached to your own sense of honor, I find it interesting that you would ask for somebody who is chased and to say I have an enthusiasm for fidelity when it is of course known that you were incapable of fidelity yourself and had innumerable affairs with other women and hurt your wife often with your seductions outside of your marriage. What is it in you that then called for a chased wife?

Well, so I would be intrigued with your answer to the same question. But fundamentally, I would suggest that I was a bit of a hypocrite. The standards I think were different. I would have expected to do as I pleased, although I will admit some shame. Betsy was a remarkable woman and it was an error to do what I did. It was another aspect, I should say, that demonstrates the remarkableness of her character is her willingness to forgive me, not simply my transgressions, but my publication thereof. You know, tell us about that way. We're jumping a little bit forward, but of course you became notorious. You lived through the first sex scandal in American political history. I have to say in candor that I lived through the second, but that's another issue. But perhaps we'll have time to discuss it, sir. Well, you know, I made one distinction that I think you might well have followed. I never published an account of my affairs of adultery, but you did. And tell us why. What happened to give us the year, the circumstances, the family in question, and your own rage to throw that whole story into the hands of the public?

I would like to reply indignantly, but as I said, I... How can you? I cannot. But the story is perhaps slightly more complicated than you would have heard of. Well, please inform us, yes. The reason I published was not to glorify my infidelities, but to deny a criminal act of speculation with public funds to acknowledge that indeed it had been an affair of the heart, but not of the purse. Let me get this right. To save your public career. To save my honor, sir. I admitted to cheating on my wife. So you humiliated yourself, your family, your in-laws, and your own character as an honorable individual in order to save your public reputation? Indeed. I... The first letter that exists that I wrote, I said I would risk my life, but not my character to exalt my station. Nothing was more important to me than my honor. And indeed, I will, in retrospect, suggest that perhaps I was too prickly. Certainly I led myself into a duel that had had most unfortunate outcomes. Certainly I caused enormous pain to a most remarkable woman through this prickly sense

of honor. Tell us what happened. Well, in the summer of 1791, a young woman named Marie Reynolds appeared at my office in Philadelphia. You're serving what now? I am serving as the Secretary of the Treasury, the first Secretary of the Treasury. The Prime Minister, as I think you put it, of the United States. Well, I shall say so simply that the general now President Washington felt that my advice was more useful than others. I shall not fault him for that. So you're theoretically the second most important person in our public councils? Indeed. And Mrs. Reynolds appeared and described herself as a New Yorker who was unable to return home and distressed and concerned and stated that I was known to have a reputation for generosity. Indeed. And wondered if I might make some small contribution to allow her to return home to New York? So I take it she's seeking funds because her husband's a rascal and wants to get back. She believes she's been abandoned by her husband and she simply asks for some help getting home a request that I'm sure either of us would attempt to aid in.

Of sure. And I commented to the young lady that I did not have any currency with me at the moment, but that if she would advise me as to where she was lodging, I would be willing to stop it a financial institution and drop off some small contribution. So you were so willing to show charity that you would go to the bank and draw money to give her money? Indeed. And then attend to her and her bed chambers and give her this gift. Indeed. Well, carry on. And so I did. In fact, as I later wrote in the publication, I said that I... The sentence was shown into her chambers and I said, I reached in my pocket and produced the note. The conversation ensued in which it soon became obvious that other than pecuniary consolation would be acceptable. In other words, she seduced you. Indeed. But when she had first come to see you, did you already feel that stirring so characteristic of you? I know not what you mean, sir, perhaps you are referring to the scoundrel, Mr. Adams, who said that I suffered from what he called a superabundance of secretions, which there

are not enough horrors in all of the colonies to draw off. I blush for you, sir, but it is true that you were known to have a wandering eye. And did you go to her chambers with the thought that this might be consummated in some more private way? I will admit that the thought perhaps had entered my mind. So you're there with money and she makes it clear that she will now bed you and does it. I take it. Indeed. The tragedy here, aside from the pain caused my dear wife, she doesn't know about this yet. Well, indeed not. She was back home. She was in the country. And I... My dear children, I believe somewhere else. Indeed. And I sent her a note saying that if she was enjoying her stay, perhaps she would wish to stay longer away from Philadelphia and enjoy the comforts of the country. What I did not know, sir, was that Mrs. Reynolds was not a distressed New Yorker. But this is not a one evening event. You're now having a relationship with this woman. I am repeatedly consoled on the pecuniary matter. And so now her husband appears.

Her husband appears. And it turns out that indeed it is not at all a woman distressed. It is blackmail. She has set you up. Indeed. And her husband appears and is greatly indignant. And he says that the only way to satisfy his indignity is to produce some of some $1,000. A huge sum of money. A staggering. I required two installments. I had to borrow money from Robert Troop in order to make this payment. But I did. And I paid the money. I think your stipend as the Secretary of the Treasury was something like $2,500 per annum. So we're talking about half a year's salary to pay off the husband of this parent's trumpet. Indeed. It cannot rival your wine bill, sir, but it was a staggering sum. I take your point. Carry on. Well, in this matter, I will not praise my own genius. Because after the payments were made, I received a communication from Mrs. Reynolds, which indicated that she was in consulate absent my tender attentions. She said I must do something to ease the aching of her heart, or she would die. Well, we're going to pick this.

This is a story worthy of a novel by Samuel Richardson. We have to take a break. But I know our audience will stay tuned for the sequel to this extraordinary story, Mr. Hamilton. You're being blackmailed. Your whole career is in jeopardy, your marriage may be in trouble. You don't know how much more blackmail you're going to have to pay, and there's going to be an investigation of you. And I became the United States. And I became the United States. We back in just a moment on the Thomas Jefferson Hour. Stay tuned. You're listening to The Thomas Jefferson, or I'm your host, Thomas Jefferson, and I'm

greatly enjoying the story of Alexander Hamilton's moment when he was blackmailed by one Maria Reynolds and her husband, a rascal, man, I think, who had speculated in Treasury funds kind of a minor, hoxster, crook. But you, one of the most brilliant men who ever lived by your own standards. I think you've flattered yourself four or five thousand times here today. You were drawn in in one of the simplest plots. You were seduced by a designing woman. Her husband appears. He demands a thousand dollars as blackmail, which is a giant sum of money. And you pay it. Did this close the affair? Well, it might have, but for my own stupidity. I received a communication, as I mentioned, from Mrs. Reynolds, and I received a communication from Mr. Reynolds, which stated that now that you have paid, I have no objection to you calling upon my wife as a friend. So he's urging you to be used here as a prostitute? Well, you are a rough answer to this.

Well, this is true, is it not? I mean, as long as you continue to pay, you can bet her as often as you please. If one must put it in crude in such terms, yes. But you made a choice to carry on. I did. And I encouraged my wife to spend additional time in the country. Your purse must be getting meager. Well, I had other sources I had friends upon whom I could call. But this is not my proudest moment, sir, much as you and Mrs. Hemings. This is not my most impressive time as a human being. How did this all end? I mean, this could have gone on for decades. Well, it ultimately, I did finally terminate the affair. But you, sir, I believe, had an interesting hand in what is one of the most scurrilous and vile events of public life during this time. Well, tempted as I am to hear more about that, let's close out the story proper first. Mrs. Reynolds, I think threatened suicide when you withdrew your affection. Well, indeed. She said she would die if I did not attend to her, and I certainly cannot imagine a person so inhuman as to allow a young 23-year-old woman to take her own life for lack of a simple visit from a friend.

How many months did this whole sorted affair go on? Do you have any idea? Well, it's difficult to do. A year or less than a year. It went on, and ultimately, it did peter out. And I believe that this whole ghastly matter was behind me. And so I believed until I received a visitor from three friends of yours on the 15th of December 1792. I believe they were minions, one might say. Well, indeed, let me quickly say my own perspective on all of this. I, of course, didn't know any of this, but I was convinced, as the secretary of state, that you were engaged in what might be called insider trading tips within the treasury. And I feared it might be worse that you might actually be pocketing treasury funds, and William Branch Giles of Virginia rose up in the House of Representatives of the United States, and demanded that you be investigated. And I think presented a series of resolutions calling for clarification of your activities as the secretary of the treasury, and it was in response to that, to this investigation

into what I took to be your corruption as a public man, not as a private man. That's none of my business. But your, your corruption as a public man, this investigation led you into this extraordinary folly of publishing a pamphlet admitting everything. How did Representative Giles come to write these articles of charges? We had dinner, and he asked me some questions about my own. And you, sir, are the secretary of state serving in the president's cabinet, and you were advising a member of the Congress on what to include in articles of impeachment against the brother cabinet member? Well, these were his own, of course, but I did believe firmly. And I will, I freely admit that I believe that you were engaged in fiscal corruption, and that this needed to be rooted out by the proper protector of the people's interests, the House of Representatives, and Giles, you know, began all of this business, and you responded to it with frenetic memos and angry parts. Well, indeed, 60,000 words in four weeks, but my son, James, laid in his life, he recorded that he had had a conversation with Mr. Gallatin, your own secretary of treasury, who reported that you had directed him to search the records for evidence of my corruption, and upon finding

none, upon finding that every penny was there. Your conclusion was not that Mr. Hamilton was honest, but that Mr. Hamilton was clever at hiding his tracks. And I did go to my grave believing that you had engaged in peculation, but move forward. So to stave, I take it to stave off some of the public scrutiny. You admitted to the, your connection with Reynolds, because Reynolds, Mr. Reynolds, was the key figure in the public private connection. Indeed. The matter came to a head when Mr. Reynolds found himself charged with criminal activity. He was a speculator. And he had an unusual effort to get off the hook. He said that it was actually I, who was the speculating figure, and that I was the one who'd mismanaged public funds. So in other words, to save himself in this investigation, he, he lies, turns state evidence or tried to on you. He manufactured state evidence, sir, against me. I was totally innocent of speculation, regardless of what you carried here. I leave that to history to determine what you carry on.

And so I received a call, as I say, on the evening of the 15th of December, 1792, from the three men who, a more suspicious man might say, came on your direction, Senator Monroe, representative Enable, and the speaker, the House Mulemberg, who brought to me the charge that I'd engaged in public speculation. And you can imagine as a man of my honor, the horror that this struck in my mind. Well, look, I mean, one thing that can be said for them is at least they came as in a private capacity. They did not blow your cover or blow this story into the public's eye. For the moment, sir. And I began to produce records, letters that prove that the connection between me and the Reynolds was in a fair of the heart, not of the purse. And indeed, these gentlemen assured me that they believed me and requested that I stop showing them records. It would never, never mention it again. It would never mention it, but I insisted on showing them the complete record. And why? Because I'm a man who believes in absolutely proving the point clearly. I wanted there to be no doubt in their minds that I was an honorable man. And they assured me that they believed me.

But Senator Monroe, sir, my friend in protege, kept copies. As any man who is committed to records would do. Assuring me that these would never see the light of day that they believed my story. Such I believed was the case until they became public, sir, and perhaps you could explain how that occurred. Well, let's leave that. I mean, I'll certainly take whatever responsibility I need to, but just quickly, in one minute or less, tell us about the pamphlet itself. Well, the pamphlet with rather long title was essentially my refuting of the claim that I'd engaged in speculation and what history has latched on to is the admission of an affair. But the far more important point was the defense of my honor as a fiscal manager. I may have been unfaithful to my wife and I take no pride in that, but I was never for one moment unfaithful to my country and did Betsy forgive you? She did indeed. A remarkable woman indeed as an old woman. She was called upon by Senator Monroe, now former president Monroe, who apparently was overcome with some sense of guilt in his later years, and he wished to speak with her.

And my children told her that the former president was here, and she refused to see him. But they said, Mother, you must see him. He's a former president, so he was shown in, but not given a chair. And he suddenly gave a brief speech of contrition. And Betsy fixed him with an eye and said, Mr. Monroe, if you are here to say that you are sorry, very sorry for the misrepresentations and the stories and the slanders you told against my dear husband, so be it. But if not, no passage of years, no nearness of grave makes any difference. And she showed him the door. My goodness, what a pile of nonsense. What a remarkable woman, sir. Let's leave it at that. So your wife forgave you. Your career was put in check, survived as the Treasury Secretary, but you soon resigned and went into private practice as a lawyer in New York. Indeed, I had taken a vow to never profit myself in any way that might raise questions. I compared myself to Caesar's wife. You must always be above speculation on your finances. And so indeed later, Tali ran noticed as he walked the streets and he saw the life in

my office, he said, the man who was created the wealth of this nation, now must labor into the night to feed his own family. And I simply had to begin to pay my bills. I believed it was important as you did, sir. And you may not have known at this time, but you would never again return to public life. Indeed. I assumed that I would always have a role to play, but I underestimated my own capability of for self-destruction politically. Well, there's so much more that one could ask, but for the moment, I want to thank you, Colonel Hamilton, for your candor. I know it's been a difficulty for you because no one likes to reveal these foibles in one's character, but you've been remarkably honest today, and we all thank you. And sir, we don't have time to discuss miss Hemings. Unfortunately, there's no time for that, sir, but let's shift gears. Now I'm going to introduce myself as Clay Jenkins, and I'm the scholar who is behind Thomas Jefferson, the creator of the Thomas Jefferson Hour. And today serving as the moderator, and with me is not, of course, Colonel Hamilton, but my friend Lieutenant Colonel Hal Bidlach of the United States Air Force.

Let me say from the beginning, how what a spirited presentation you've offered as Hamilton. I know you do not speak for the military or for the U.S. Air Force Academy, but you do inhabit the character of Hamilton. You must delight in this story, however, he might not have delighted in it. Well, I'm delighted to be here. It's nice to be here in Reno with you in your palatial studio. It's a lot of fun to do, Hamilton. Those are wonderful stories. And I think that just as you enjoy doing with Jefferson, it's a great pleasure to bring the human side of these characters out that they're not dry, dead textbooks. They were men who lived and breathed, made mistakes, had good ideas, and it's a great deal of fun. Well, we'll do another program on Hamilton's life. I think most of our listeners knew little of this. They of course are aware that Hamilton was the Secretary of the Treasury. They are aware that Hamilton was related in the war to formally to George Washington. I think they're basically aware that Hamilton was a problematic figure in the early national period. And of course, they know of the duel, which we'll talk about in our next session.

But how, you know, I think when Hugh Grant was caught with the prostitute in Southern California and he went on the Jay Leno show and the first question Jay Leno asked him was, what were you thinking? Well, I mean, I can understand why Hamilton might be drawn into this ridiculous love triangle and this black male scheme. But what possessed him to publish a pamphlet? This prickly sense of honor, I really do believe that coming from his background, he felt that all he had was his good name. And he had a remarkable ability to compartmentalize, to not see a connection between a personal infidelity and a public one. I have no doubt that he was honest in a Secretary of Treasury. I don't for a moment think that he engaged himself. So Jefferson was simply wrong. I think Jefferson was simply wrong. But Hamilton, this inexplicable stupidity, I understand being seduced once perhaps, being caught. But to then receive a letter from the husband, the PIMP saying, okay, you can see the prostitute again and saying, all right then, let's engage in this, seems to me to be remarkably stupid. And I cannot imagine how a person of his intelligence could have done this.

You know, it's easy for you to say that. But of course, we live in the age of Bill Clinton and Gary Condit and Wilbur Mills and a whole range of other people. Obviously, we know that when it comes to sexual activity, the human reason is usually an inadequate measure of responsibility and it reminds me of something that the host of the Jefferson Hour sometimes says, Bill Crystal, he doesn't say it in this context, but he tells the joke. He's a Christian minister and he says that when God created man, he gave him both a penis and a brain. And he said to man, he said to Adam, I have good news and bad news. And the good news is that I have given you these two great organs, which will allow you to fruitify the earth. And Adam said, what is the bad news? And God said, I have only given you enough blood so that you can only use one of them at one time. That's the, I mean, this is Hamilton. This is Jefferson. Jefferson was Sally Heming's Jefferson with Betsy Walker. Hamilton, apparently, an innumerable series of seductions. This one broke into the public press. It shouldn't surprise any

of us that men of power are capable of being real idiots when it comes to sex. Well, they're like all other men. They're just more noticed, I think. So what strikes me how about this is that when Hamilton wrote the pamphlet, there's a certain, well, there's not just a certain, there's a, a consummate comic art that she, she made it clear that other than pecuniary consolation would be acceptable. And her husband made it clear that I could continue, you know, this sounds like he's writing a pot boiler. I mean, did he have a sense of the absurd comedy of this? I don't think that he did. I, I, I, I, he, his reaction to the ridicule and the hoots that came from this pamphlet was, was kind of stunned surprise. Why, why wouldn't people understand that this was simply a mistake? It was not a criminal matter and just leave it behind. He, I think in some way he was hamstrung by his, by his sense of honor. It, it served him in some areas, but ultimately got him killed and it ruined his life. Well, he, of course, was aware that this was a blot upon his public reputation. You're a humanity scholar, you know, you're looking

at this as a, as a historian. Do you think that Hamilton's political aspirations were destroyed by this incident? No, not really. I think that the, that was the final nail in the coffin, but his own hubris, his own arrogance, his own inability to tolerate those around him he thought were less than himself had caused so much alienation that his election to any office was virtually impossible. I, I respect him enormously. I mean, he turned down the chief just to sit with the Supreme Court. He turned down a sentancy with to which he would have been appointed because he believed that he would not serve the country best in that capacity. So I don't think he was madly thirsting for power. He would have, he would be on the Supreme Court. But he was incapable, I think, to some degree of understanding the big picture of how all the politics worked. I think Jefferson was a far better politician. I mean, I, I am fatigued by this notion that Jefferson never campaigned, never want to be president. Clearly, he could have simply written a note to Madison. But he understood that you don't do it this way. And Hamilton would, would not be put off. And so I think

he was disliked enough. Certainly Adams would have done everything in his power to destroy any campaign of his. So interesting because you painted a portrait of a vain man and a, and a boastful man and a man who didn't suffer fools and a man who was full of himself and a man who thirsted for military glory and a man who was a kind of social climber and a man who was cynical about, about others and, and derisive of, of others in times, including the very woman that, that he loves so deeply. And yet he was one of the most effective public figures in early American history. And I think it has to be said by anyone that Hamilton put our, our financial affairs on a firm basis and really established the United States as a, as a power to be reckoned with in the world. Have a strange mix of, of qualities. We just have a few seconds, but just make sense of that for 10 seconds. Well, I think perhaps in men of power, men of great achievement and women too, I think. It's, it's a complicated package. And everyone has their own set of baggage. And I think when you are a phenomenal achiever

that comes at a cost and you are not going to be necessarily a complete person. I think Mr. Jefferson, Mr. Hamilton both illustrate that point. How bid like, thank you so much. This has been a very interesting edition of the Thomas Jefferson hour. We'll have another conversation with Alexander Hamilton soon, but for the moment, thank you everyone. We'll see you next week. Good day. You can visit Mr. Jefferson's homepage on the worldwide web at www.th-jeperson.org. To order a copy of today's program or to ask Mr. Jefferson a question, please call 1-888-458-1803. Again, the number is 1-888-458-1803. We're visit our website at www.th-jeperson.org. Thank you for listening and we hope you join us again next week for another entertaining, historically accurate and thought-provoking commentary through the eyes of Thomas Jefferson. The new Thomas Jefferson hour is produced by

High Plains Public Radio and New Enlightenment Radio Network, a non-profit organization dedicated to the search for truth in the tradition of Thomas Jefferson.