KANU News Retention

[NICK HAINES]: Welcome, to a citizens' forum about jobs and the economy. I'm Nick Haines, statehouse bureau chief for Kansas Public Radio. Earlier this year, KPR and the Wichita Eagle newspaper released the results of a statewide poll to find out which issues are of greatest concern to Kansans during this election year. That survey of more than 600 voters told us that, other than crime, more Kansans are concerned about jobs and the economy than any other single issue. One in five poll respondents said at least one of their family members had either lost a job, had to take a cut in pay, or had been forced into early retirement within the last year. Poll respondents were also asked to suggest and evaluate possible solutions. During the next hour, you'll meet some of the people who took part in this process. They are James Douglas, owner of a small roofing company in Garden City; LaDean Ratzlaff, a retired secretary; Veronica Soles, an unemployed aerospace worker; Andy Anderson, a freelance writer; and Tammy Carroll, a homemaker. They all recently gathered at Wichita State University to discuss the jobs issue, and what they wanted

their politicians to do about the problem. The night before the forum began, the participants read a booklet that outlined four proposals for creating jobs and improving the Kansas economy. They were then led through a discussion about those four plans with Gordon Basham, News Director of Kansas Public Radio member station KMUW in Wichita. The first option the participants were asked to consider was whether tax breaks would help attract more companies and jobs to Kansas. But critics of such an economic incentive program say that when businesses are exempt from paying taxes, the tax burden shifts unfairly onto the backs of average citizens. For example, Kansas currently provides $40 million in property tax breaks for businesses -- that's $40 million individual Kansas residents have to make up for in their own taxes. James Douglas, who is the owner of a roofing company in Garden City, says that's a small price to pay for the benefits that new businesses can bring to Kansas. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: Well, out in Garden City where we live, we put in

a huge packing plant about 10 years ago. And they got incentives to come in, and they brought in 3,000 jobs. And the payroll every week made a big difference in the economy. And all the little jobs and little businesses that formed after that to support that increased population were a direct economic boon. I don't think that the tax breaks that they got coming in hurt us at all, as far as increasing individual tax burden on people who had to make up the difference in the tax revenue. I think that the people that came out and took jobs and spent their money in the local economy more than made up for anything that the packing plant saved by coming in. And that brought other packing plants in that have increased their production, and their employment. So I think it was a good deal. I think the economic incentives were good for our area. [GORDON BASHAM]: Who has something to add to that? That's pretty important. As we

say that the critics are saying, that what happens whenever you get the tax incentives is you and I wind up paying higher taxes. [VERONICA SOLES]: Well if we end up paying higher taxes, it depends on how much the wages are that the businesses... when they hire the people, if it's not a decent living wage with potential health benefits or whatever since we don't have a healthcare package yet, that would be good, because these people would also be able to afford to pay taxes, and it would make it easier for everybody around to swallow these tax increases that might come with giving the tax breaks. But the companies that come in should be required to hire people at a decent working, living wage. [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, this is a very important issue. A lot of businesses that are created, or that come in and create jobs -- a lot of the jobs are, realistically, not really high-paying jobs. Is there a difference, as far as you all are concerned, whether or not a job is high paying, or whether it's

minimum wage, or whether it's somewhere in between? How do you feel about that -- Andy? [ANDY ANDERSON]: Oh, most definitely we want jobs in Kansas that are paying our people good wages. That goes without saying. Both candidates when interviewed have all talked about bringing large businesses into Kansas, and, for sure, we have a lot of room in Kansas for bringing businesses in. A lot of people, though, haven't talked about small businesses. And small businesses typically are where all the job growth is occurring in our country today. So although large businesses are good, what we need to do also is think of the small businesses that are brought about by bringing large businesses in, but also bringing in small businesses to Kansas and watching them grow also. Because over the last decade, almost all the job growth in our country has been occurring in small businesses, plus all the innovations that have been going on occur 50 percent in small businesses. We don't need to neglect smaller businesses in lieu of trying to get the big numbers in for one or two large companies. And as for taxes and things like that, somebody needs to

really have responsibility for knowing how much is too much, how much incentive does it take to bring a big business into Kansas, and is it going to cost us too much. There has to be somebody responsible for making those kinds of decisions. [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, one of the things, too, about creating jobs, not all jobs that are created are full-time jobs. A lot of jobs that have been created are part-time jobs, and a lot of the part-time jobs you don't get benefits -- you don't get healthcare, you don't get retirement, you don't get a lot of the other benefits that go with it. Tammy, I'm wondering what you're thinking here, because you're sitting there looking as though you have something to say. Jump in. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Ok. For me, I'm a real bottom-line person, and I tend to try and get past all the surface fog, and I want to get down to the basic issue. And the basic issue is it's not just big businesses that promote the smaller entrepreneurs to begin their smaller businesses. That helps, but it's also a friendly atmosphere without burdening them with such government regulation and government

taxation that they can start their business with hopes of profiting, of making profits, and of employing other people. To, yes, continue making profits and making a living for their family, and providing a living for other families as well. When you have a government that is so regulatory and so intent upon mandating, requiring, there's no hope. Taxation is the noose around the businessman's neck, and it appears that the environment we have in our country now is that there's no way to get out of that... [GORDON BASHAM]: But let me challenge you on something here. Whenever taxes are cut, in all probability what also happens is the income, because the income to the state diminishes, you have to cut services as well to people. [TAMMY CARROLL]: To me that's a very short-lived...short-sighted observation. That's what I thought when I read about...for this option, those who oppose. I don't think you just need to provide tax

incentives. I think you need to just overall cut taxes so that they are... so a government can...I'm sorry, so a business can begin with hopes of making a profit and prospering. If taxes are at a...I don't want to say a decent level, but if they're at an equitable level... [GORDON BASHAM]: There's a balance, is what you're saying. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Yes, there is a balance. And when they're at that level then a government... business can start, pay their taxes, broaden the tax base -- that's the long-sighted vision. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: Putting more people to work. Bringing more income into the house, so you can pay him, so he can pay you, so I can pay the next person, yeah. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Right, the tax base gets bigger, and it grows, because more people are contributing to the public coffers, so to speak. That's the long term vision. If you're- if you're pro-business and pro-market forces, then you tend to look long term and not just short term. What's going to happen in the short term? [GORDON BASHAM]: Ms. Ratzlaff, LaDean Ratzlaff, you've lived...you have the benefit of the ages. You're retired. [LADEAN RATZLAFF]: Yes. [GORDON BASHAM: You've seen taxes go up, you've seen

taxes go down. You've seen services improved and services cut. Where do you come down on all this? [LADEAN RATZLAFF]: As you say, lowering those taxes would bring companies in, and they would give people employment. The employed people will pay taxes, and it's just very simple. I mean, the more people who are employed, the more taxes you have, and it balances out. [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, in terms of the actual economic incentives to the state of Kansas, what incentives do you all feel we should use as a, as an economy, as a state? What should we do to try to get more businesses into the state of Kansas? "Economic Development" means what to you -- Andy, what does it mean to you? [ANDY ANDERSON]: Well, obviously jobs and economic development are tied together, irrevocably. The idea of tax incentives...my problem with a lot of things going on in government, in politics, in drawing jobs in, is the motivations behind that.

What a business wants to see, I think, besides looking at a state like Kansas and saying, "They have the resources, and they're centrally located, and yes or no I'm going to get x number of dollars off on tax increases," is the motivation of the workers that they're going to hire, because that's going to be directly proportional to the amount of output that they put out. So, what I think we need to do, or one of those things -- and this falls into an area that I'm really strong about, and that's education -- is educating Kansas people who are laid off and don't have jobs, and getting back a spirit in Kansas. Well, not really "getting back," I think we already have it. I don't think Kansas stands second to any state in their people. We're grassroots, we're conservative, we're hard workers. That needs...that message needs to go out to businesses, that if you locate in Kansas you're going to be centrally located, you're going to have all the benefits of being here, but other than that you're going to have very hardworking, strongly-motivated workers to take... to take your product to its greatest potential. [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, let's talk about economic

incentives for a minute. There are, as we said a moment ago, there are economic incentives that the state or that local governments -- city and county governments -- can offer businesses to come and relocate in their areas, such as taking property off of property tax rolls. But it would seem to me that there are also economic incentives that could be offered to individuals to accept these jobs. Is that something anybody has given any thought to? Mr. Douglas -- Jim -- you have a roofing company in Garden City. In order for you to hire more people, what does it take for you to add more people? You have to get more business, I would assume, right? [JIM DOUGLAS]: Well, ours is a unique situation out in the west end of the state. We're kind of like the Marine Corp -- we're always looking for a few good men. And everybody out there that's really wanting a job, can find work out where we're at. We're looking for qualified people. I think that goes back to the other statement, that having a qualified work force

will attract business as much as economic considerations. If you're looking to relocate to Kansas, and you want to open a manufacturing business or service business or anything, you don't want to come in here, set your business up, and then have to bring people in from out of state to work for you. You want to come to an area that you know you've got a workforce that is well educated, semi-skilled at least, and take it from there. In our situation, we work outside, and it's hard work. So, getting people to come in and work in the construction industry like we have, is difficult. I'm not certain that economic considerations, unless the state was going to subsidize their paycheck, would make them come in the door any quicker. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Well, wouldn't one economic incentive for taking a job be withdrawing the incentive for not taking a job? You know, if you take away the incentive

for sitting at home and doing nothing, or for going out in the streets and getting into trouble, or generating trouble -- if you remove that incentive, then of course you provide an incentive for them to go out and get a job. [GORDON BASHAM]: So that in itself is an economic incentive... of economic development, taking... [TAMMY CARROLL]: Right. [GORDON BASHAM]: ...away incentives for people not to work, is that what you're saying? [TAMMY CARROLL]: Well, that's my humble opinion. [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, it's a very good opinion, too. Veronica, you're nodding your head. [VERONICA SOLES]: Well, I agree. If the people, even the ones on the welfare rolls, a lot of them do not have an incentive to go out and find a job. They're having money handed to them, they may be in hard situations or whatever, I don't know. Everybody has their own problems, but if they were required to do some sort of work for that money they earn, without losing their health benefits for their kids or whatever, that might help. But I think that falls into a different plan. [GORDON BASHAM]: Sure. Well we were talking a moment ago -- Andy, I think was the one who raised the issue of education. And that brings us to choice number two, let's take a look at that very briefly, if we can.

Choice number two is educating low-income people and the unemployed. And participants in the Kansas Public Radio and Wichita Eagle Poll identified this choice as being an effective way to add jobs to the economy and improve the economy over the long run. It's not just a short-term fix, but it's a long-term fix. Supporters of this choice argue that by improving the education level of low-income people or those who have just lost their jobs, society will benefit because the productivity of the workforce improves. Opponents of this choice, though, argue that there are already many programs in place which offer job training to low-income individuals or people who have been laid off. And they add that such programs are proven ineffective, and that they really can't do or don't do anything to take more people off welfare. Who feels strongly about that, about educating people? Let's hear from some of you about this. [TAMMY CARROLL]: I would say the first program I thought of that's already in place to educate people so that they can be productive citizens is the public education system. Getting a good basic education and a high school

diploma would go a long way towards going out and being able to get an entry-level job that may not pay fifty thousand dollars a year off the bat. Maybe good old fashioned hard work with a roofing company in western Kansas. But if they can read and write, and if they know what to do with some numbers when they're given to them... But, you know, that's one of the program so far that is failing miserably. It's not doing what it's supposed to do. They're pumping out young adults that haven't the faintest idea of what they're supposed to do. So they sit... sit at home and expect to be given what it is they want. You know, it all comes back to the attitudes of, you know, your attitude is either, "I'm going to go out and find work and I don't care where I have to start, but I'll build from there," or, "I'm going to sit here and wait for someone to hand it to me." [GORDON BASHAM]: Andy, you wanted to say something? [ANDY ANDERSON]: Well, it's not the education that does that. I was glad to hear the other day that the high school students, according to aptitude tests in Kansas, are scoring above the national norm. So, if you're

just talking about knowledge, we're giving it to people. I mean, we have great educational institutes throughout Kansas. We have good technical and vocational schools, universities, high schools -- I think they're all delivering education. The problem is, is shaping the mind of those people into getting into a workforce. Things have changed a lot since... [GORDON BASHAM]: So, education is one thing, and work ethic is something else, is that correct? [ANDY ANDERSON]: Yeah, things have changed a lot. When Kansas students would go to the farm and work half the day and get their education the other half. Toda people are put into a situation, especially in cities, where they're engulfed in the educational process, but there's no logical way to connect that into the real world when they get out. We're pushing people through an educational factory, and when they drop out that door, there's nothing for them. They've got the education, but they really don't know how to use it in the real world. So skills training, I think, is very important. I know a lot of high schools are doing that now, but I think we need to get a little more involved in that. And get people when they're younger -- and this is a longer-term fix, there's short term and there's long term. Short term would be vocational and technical training, six/eight months.

Long term is training people as they're growing up in a work ethic, that we seem to have lost. [GORDON BASHAM]: So that by the time they graduate from high school, at least they know not only how to add 2 and 2 and how to spell, but they also know how to get a job and how to keep a job, is that what you're saying? [ANDY ANDERSON]: They can get a job. When I went to college, I worked two jobs. I mean, I'm not trying to say anything about myself, but I supported myself while I went through college. I had a good work ethic. I think I still do. People today, when they get out of college have a choice -- they can enter the workforce, or they can go on to higher education. But it seems like somewhere along the line, a lot of them have lost that work ethic. It's government grants, it's government loans, it's support this, and support that. And people need to develop their own skills at working. They're there, they just don't know it. [GORDON BASHAM]: I'd like to hear, LaDean, what you have to say about that. You've lived longer than the rest of us, and you probably...Have you seen a shift in the work ethic in people in society over the last few years? [LADEAN RATZLAFF]: Oh, I think very definitely so. Today's student, so many of them

go to school, come home, watch TV -- they're not motivated! They're not motivated. [ANDY ANDERSON]: They play video games, too. [LADEAN RATZLAFF]: Right. TV games. [ANDY ANDERSON]: Or they work, but they're supporting their car or their clothes, or something like that. [LADEAN RATZLAFF]: Well, that's true, too. [ANDY ANDERSON]: It's just a whole different situation than it was 25 years ago now when I got out of high school. Because back then, if you didn't go to work, you got awful hungry. And you didn't go down and get unemployment or anything like that. Of course, they had a big motivator to go to higher education -- you either went to college or you went to Vietnam. [GORDON BASHAM]: Sure. [ANDY ANDERSON]: So there's a lot of college students in my generation that would have normally gone into the workforce, I suppose. But I came from a background that you got up in the morning and you went to work. And there wasn't any of that laying around in the shade, wondering if Uncle Sam's gonna send you a check this month and make things a little easier for you. [GORDON BASHAM]: When we were talking a

minute ago, Tammy, you were talking about welfare and giving incentives to people to get off of welfare. There's a program in Kansas called the KAN WORK program, I don't know if you've heard of this or not. But essentially, the KAN WORK program has a budget of $1.6 million, and it currently provides education for people -- low-income and people who are unemployed. There are currently about 5,000 welfare recipients who are pursuing either GEDs, going to VO-TECH, going to four-year college or whatever, who are working to improve themselves through education. That program is costing you and I $1.6 million a year. That's a lot of money. Should it be expanding? Should it be cut? What should happen to something like that? Who want to handle that -- Tammy? $1.6 million, a lot of money. [TAMMY CARROLL]: I know, it's a lot of my husband's money. [JIM DOUGLAS]: Are people in the program taking the education and doing something with it? Or are they just taking the money, going through the program, and when the program's over, they're back looking for another grant or a program to get into.

There's a lot of professional students. [VERONICA SOLES]: Also, how much is taken up in administrative costs, to pay the people who run the program? [GORDON BASHAM]: So, in other words, in order to know whether it's a good program, what you have to know, is you have to know how much of the money is going to pay the clerks and the people who administer the program versus how much of the money is going to pay for the program, and how it benefits the people who get it, is that right? [VERONICA SOLES]: How much of the actual...is going for education? [TAMMY CARROLL]: Well, and let's look at why this program ever had to come into existence in the first place. Why did these people not get their GEDs and their high school diplomas in the first place? What was it that broke off that relationship with getting their education? [GORDON BASHAM]: Sure. [TAMMY CARROLL]: And at least getting that basic education so they could come out and begin and either go on to a VO-TECH training school themselves, or decide for college. You know, I realize I'm at home, and I don't get up and go to a workplace every day, so I fully recognize that my perception might not be all of their reality. But my husband gets up and goes to work every day. And I think I agreed

with just about everything Andy said. The two points that I thought of were, you know, the kids that graduate from college and go out, are they willing to take less than their, you know, "I want this, and no less than that." Are they willing to start in the mail room? [GORDON BASHAM]: And work their way to the top, to the boardroom? Sure. [TAMMY CARROLL]: And work hard and show some diligence and some responsibility. The other one was, I think where I dig my heels in, is when we say that it's up to the government to provide this program. Because in all of the companies that I was associated with before I decided to raise my children, and in all of the companies my husband has been associated with -- those companies have had training programs for anyone who wanted to avail themselves of them. Those businesses were more than willing to lay out the funds to educate these people, to train them for whatever positions they were interested in, whatever position they had an aptitude in... I really rear back when we begin saying, again, that it's up to the

government to do this for us. Because of course, when you involve the government in something, in my opinion, you then remove the excellence and the chance of retaining and holding on to the excellence that you can have when you just get people working. [GORDON BASHAM]: It comes back to control, is that what you're saying? Yeah. [ANDY ANDERSON]: And it fortifies that mindset that if I can't make it, the government is going to do it for me, so why should I even make the effort? [TAMMY CARROL]: Why try? Right. [ANDY ANDERSON]: It's kind of like a Catch-22 situation. It's really a short- term fix. Kansas KAN WORK has had a few problems. The results in getting people out of the pipeline and into good jobs has not been that great lately, from what I've read. But the idea is good. It's a noble idea, because it's a short-term idea for getting people that are out of the job force back into the job force. But again, there's that mindset in there, that they really want to start more than in the mailroom. "Obviously, if I go through this training, then I'll go and be an executive." [GORDON BASHAM]: So they feel they're entitled to begin at a higher level.. [ANDY ANDERSON]: Exactly. And that's not reality. And we need to change that. [TAMMY CARROLL]: We have an entitlement

mentality that this country's developing over the past 30 years... [ANDY ANDERSON]: Exactly. [TAMMY CARROL]: ...an entitlement mentality, whether it's, you know, healthcare or whatever it is. [GORDON BASHAM]: And that is an economic issue in itself. [TAMMY CARROLL]: "I have a right to this, and by gum, the government's going to give it to me." [VERONICA SOLES]: And they want it instantly. They don't want to have to work or wait for it. [MUSIC] [NICK HAINES]: You're listening to a citizens' forum about jobs and the economy in Kansas. For the last half hour, respondents to a statewide poll sponsored by Kansas Public Radio and the Wichita Eagle newspaper have been debating how the state can improve economic conditions for everyone. So far, forum participants have been considering two major options. One is to provide tax breaks and other incentives for businesses and corporations. They've also been considering whether more education and training would lower the Kansas unemployment rate. So far, the participants in this forum have agreed on two main points. The first is that they don't want the government to create a huge employment bureaucracy.

Secondly, they believe that Americans have become too dependent on what they call "the welfare economy." They all claimed that some Kansans are taking unfair advantage of government aid. In the second part of this program, the forum participants will grapple with two more suggested ways to improve the Kansas economy. They begin by considering a program that would put welfare recipients and the unemployed to work rebuilding the state's infrastructure. It's argued that public housing, as well as roads, highways, and bridges in Kansas are deteriorating. And by getting the unemployed and welfare recipients to repair them, it would be a win-win situation for everyone. Veronica Soles, an unemployed aerospace worker from Wichita, is receptive to the idea. [VERONICA SOLES]: That's where we get the people who are on welfare and state assistance out there to earn the money they are receiving. And have them go out...but if, like, the women who are on welfare? Provide some sort of childcare or, I guess, tax breaks for them when they put their kids

at a babysitter. Then they can get out and work. And that'll help teach them a work ethic, and then they will be earning the benefits they're receiving. And I think that's one of the better things that could be done with that particular program. [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, you may not know this, but there are currently about 500 welfare recipients in the state of Kansas that are helping work on public projects, such as building roads. Should this program be expanded? Should we spend more money on that? [ANDY ANDERSON]: Well, if we put people in it that are already on the welfare rolls, is it really expanding the money? And why do we have to give it to the government? Government is notorious on overspending on everything they've ever done! [GORDON BASHAM]: Who's going to do it, Andy? [ANDY ANDERSON]: Private enterprise! Give it to the public, give it to the people that are already out there, that already have these businesses. Let them manage it and let them put it together. What is one of the clarion calls of the governors now -- is that "We want to put this back in the hands of the people, and get it out of the government's hands." Get these programs out of the government. Leave it alone. Let the public handle it. The

money is already there, we're paying them anyway. Why not let private enterprise take this over? I guarantee you they would be more efficient. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: There used to be a federal program like that, I think it was called CETA. Where the federal government paid the employees 70 percent of their wage, and they worked for a private business. And if they, if they hadn't been in that program, they would've been on welfare or whatever. That would be a way that you could take the people out of the welfare system and at least put them back in the workplace. And help, maybe, I guess build some self esteem or some work ethic. [GORDON BASHAM]: I think Tammy looks like she's really on the edge of her chair, here. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Am I that obvious? My goodness. [GORDON BASHAM]: This has really begun to...this has pushed a button in you, I can tell. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Oh, I have so many of them, and that's the problem! I see this option when I read these over, the first thing that came to my mind was that this option would be a natural outgrowth or outcropping of option number one. If you allowed market forces to

flourish and prosper and boom -- what would you do? You would broaden the tax base, we're back to broadening the tax base again. You'd have more people working if you removed some of the incentive for not working. You'd have more tax money available, which would go to make sure that the infrastructure within the state maintains levels of safety and acceptability and all those other things. You know, I'm not against the government employees keeping the roads maintained and all, but this would be a...we'd have more money to do this as a natural outgrowth of having a pro-business, pro-market environment. [GORDON BASHAM]: But how many people in our society want to work building roads and building bridges? We talked about this just a minute ago -- we were talking about the education issue. Everybody expects that when they graduate from high school or college that they are entitled to a job sitting behind a desk, perhaps. How many people really want to sit around... [JAMES DOUGLAS]: I think they've been taught the wrong thing. The only thing education does

is give you the tools to go out in the world and provide for yourself. [GORDON BASHAM]: Sure. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: You gotta make your own opportunities. And anybody that comes out with a degree or a high school diploma that thinks that they're automatically entitled to anything, usually comes in for a rude shock. The only thing education is, it's just like a tool box. It gives you something to work with and go from there and cut your own swath. [GORDON BASHAM]: What about the possibility of welfare recipients who work on public works jobs having salaries or getting income that pay them less, and therefore what you're doing, is you're taking jobs away from people who work for private business, and you're causing a problem there. In other words, you have people competing with each other within the workforce -- you have the people working for the government at a lower wage, perhaps, then they would be able to earn working for a private business. Do you see that as a problem? Because that's one of the things that the critics are talking about as well, as being a problem. [VERONICA SOLES]: Are you talking about the welfare? The people who'd be on... [GORDON BASHAM]: Sure, exactly -- people on welfare. [VERONICA SOLES]: If you have a limitation to how long they can

collect it, then they're going to have an incentive to get out and find a job in the private sector. [GORDON BASHAM]: And businessmen, I'm sure that if someone...Jim, perhaps, was roofing a building, and they were collecting welfare, they'd be making less money. And so therefore, the person who's working for you, you pay them more -- it's costing you more money. So you would say, "Why shouldn't I go out and hire someone on welfare to do that for me?" [JAMES DOUGLAS]: Oh, it'd be definitely something you would consider, because if you're thinking about it, your competitors are thinking about it. [GORDON BASHAM]: Yeah. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: And it's all bottom-line dollars, so if you're hiring a guy off the street for X amount of dollars, and you can go down and get someone who's on public assistance who's -- if you can find one that'll work -- and you only have to pay him 15 or 20 percent less, and they'll work, that's quite an incentive for a businessman. I don't see that happening. [GORDON BASHAM]: Yeah, it really is. I want to come back just a minute ago to Tammy, your position on this. I look

around, and I look at what the New Deal back in the '30s and the '40s did for us as a country. I look at the states, uh, the country's national highway system, for example, the bridges that were built, I look at Hoover Dam. I mean, there are a lot of examples of some really fine things that we built as a country, simply because of the fact that President Roosevelt had the courage to go to Congress and say, "We need to take these people who are unemployed, and give them money to do something." I keep coming back to it. What's wrong with that kind of a problem? What's wrong with that? What problem is it for you? [TAMMY CARROLL]: Because it develops a dependence upon the government to continually provide that money for them. [GORDON BASHAM]: But if we have people who are already dependent? [JAMES DOUGLAS]: I think the Japanese bailed us out in '41, when that program was just about to crumble of its own weight. I think the Japanese bailed us out of that. [GORDON BASHAM]: So history sort of saved the program... [JAMES DOUGLAS]: I think history saved the program... [GORDON BASHAM]: ....and made it more noble than it really is. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: ...and left it a place in history it probably wouldn't have occupied had it continued another few years. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Right. We've been churning out generations who have accepted the belief

that, "My generation should do better than my parents.'" Well, the problem with that is, where do you draw the line? You know, I was reading something on "America's Poor." America's poor live better than most of Germany or Japan's well off -- with their cars and their televisions and their dishwashers. I'm not saying those things are bad. I'm not saying that, you know, not everybody should have the opportunity to have those things. All I'm saying is, where do you draw the line? You know, we are so materialistic. We've got to have...certainly what everyone else has around us. And we can't have anything less. And if the government will provide that for me, well, why should I bother to get up and go out and have to break a sweat to get it, when I can sit at home and receive it in the mail? [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, and I think that this sort of brings us to our fourth and final choice for the evening, and that is living within our means. Because what we're talking about, what I'm hearing you say, is there's a lot of that

within the individual household, uh, people don't live within their means. And it's also something that's happening at the level of government. According to those folks who took part in the survey, it's much harder now for people to live within their means. And although the state law here in Kansas requires that we balance the budget each year, the budget has grown many, many fold. Supporters of the choice of living within our means, say that there's too much waste -- there's too much fraud -- in government. And, Veronica, you're shaking your head, and we're going to get to you in just a minute, because I can see that you want to answer that. They also say that the government should be encouraged to live within its means, and that the system that we have now encourages the government to actually spend the money that's been allocated. In other words, once you have the money budgeted, if you don't spend it, then next year, your budget will be cut by that amount. Opponents of the choice of living within our means -- if you can believe this, there are people who are opposed to that -- say that while excessive state spending is a problem, there are a lot of people who depend on a lot of fine programs, such

as Medicare programs, programs of entitlement for kids, for children, and that these people would suffer if these programs were either reduced or were cut back altogether. Now -- let's get to Veronica. [VERONICA SOLES]: Well, on the living within the means, the budget problems where if the programs don't spend the money that they've been allocated, they are cut back that much by the next year. Well, if they were allowed to keep that and still get their regular amount for the next year, they could come up with a lot better improvements to the programs. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: Or keep a percentage of it or whatever. [VERONICA SOLES]: Yeah, turn the rest of it back over to the deficit or whatever. That would help a lot. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Savings accounts never hurt anyone. [VERONICA SOLES]: That's right. Save it for a rainy day. [TAMMY CARROLL]: That's right. [GORDON BASHAM]: So, what you're saying is the money that can be saved can be turned in to reducing the deficit or whatever, is that what I'm hearing you say? [JAMES DOUGLAS]: Yeah, or keep it within the department for the following year. [VERONICA SOLES]: Yeah, for the following year. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: Without being penalized when you come back and say, "OK, we had a $3 million

budget, last year we only $2.5 million, we saved 1/2 a million dollars because we were efficient. Now we can only have $2.5 million next year." [VERONICA SOLES]: But if they had the $3 million they had the previous year, they'd also have that extra half million, and that would be for more improvements. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: To either expand their program, or whatever they want. [TAMMY CARROLL]: In other words, stop punishing government when it finally does something right and saves money and is efficient, and treats our money with some kind of respect and regard for how it was earned. [VERONICA SOLES]: And as for our representatives who allocate the budgets and make up the budget in the state level, I think there should be some sort of law prohibiting them from voting themselves raises if they don't come in under budget. Or if they go in, and they've overspent, they shouldn't be allowed to have a raise. Because in regular business, you don't do that with your workers. [GORDON BASHAM]: Sure. Are you willing to write your legislators, and say to them, "We want to change the state law"? Is that what you think what needs to be done? [TAMMY CARROLL]: I've done it about other things. [VERONICA SOLES]: Yeah, why not?

[ANDY ANDERSON]: We have that right. You know, I think one of the problems with government is that they have no competition. That's why they spend so much money, is because in private enterprise, in order for me to be competitive in my work, I have to make my costs competitive with people that are in Wichita that perform my same service. Government has no competition when they bid on things, they do things. They just spend money. Like she said, going in in the middle of the night and voting their own pay raises. When i worked in corporate America, if I had gone to the president and said, "Oh, I just wanted to tell you -- we had a meeting last night with all the executives, and we decided to vote ourselves a 27 percent pay raise" -- would that happen? I don't think so. But it does happen in government. And what amazes me, totally, is that we know that -- and within a few weeks after we hear it, we've forgotten it. We've forgotten that these things happen, all these things. Congress and the government has so far distanced itself from normal, just plain old public USA kind of people, that they've forgotten what it's like to be like

us. They've forgotten what it's like to have to pay a utility bill, or a rent bill, or a phone bill, or be competitive with anybody else. They want to get reelected -- and I'm not trying to be cynical, and say everybody's like this -- but they want to be reelected, and they want to stay in Congress. And so they put all their efforts on their reelection campaign, and forget the issues. And that's what the big problem is. Jobs and the economy I think would work, if we could work with the government. But the government's over here, and we're here, and there's this big gulf between us. [GORDON BASHAM]: What can we do to narrow the gulf, Andy? [ANDY ANDERSON]: It is narrowing. It's narrowing from information. Over the last, say, maybe ten years or so, maybe even a little longer, we are getting information. From the western parts of Kansas to the smallest town in Alaska, people are finding out what's happening in government. They've got TVs, they've got radios. We find out exactly what's happening. And what's happening, I think, in this country -- and it may take a while to happen -- is that there's this grassroots surge of people that are finally really getting fed up with what goes on in government. They're finally going to take a voice and stand up. I think this

election in Kansas between the governors is going to be an exciting one, *if* they do two things. Number one, they both promised that they weren't going to sling any mud, which I'll believe when I see. And the next one is that they are going to concentrate on the issues. Now how many times have we heard that? I love when politicians can't say yes or no. But if they really do those two things... Because what Kansans want, is honesty. People that I've talked to and articles that I've read -- what people say is, "We don't care if what he says isn't exactly what he does. But be honest with us, and tell us what you really think you're going to have to do to make the Kansas economy grow, to bring jobs in." Don't give us platitudes, don't just sit there and say, "Well, yeah, I think it's great that we're going to get new business into Kansas, and I'm going to personally be involved in that." How? Why? How much is it going to cost me? How are you going to do it? And if it doesn't work exactly like that, that's fine, because you're not governor yet. You don't know exactly how government works. But give us a plan. We're Kansans, we can take it. We want honesty. We want answers. [GORDON BASHAM]: Do you feel as though there are good enough people running for public

office? Do we have quality candidates anymore? Who wants to respond to that? I mean, Andy, I take it that you probably have some opinions on that. But who else wants to respond as well? [JAMES DOUGLAS]: Well, it's difficult to rise to a certain level within the two parties without being "of the party," and I think they go through a weeding out process. And if you're going to be a professional politician, it's a career. It's just like anything else. And it's hard to come from the field, get off the tractor, and drive to the statehouse and be effective, sometimes. There's probably a lot of representatives that do that. [GORDON BASHAM]: Do you feel like there is a problem with the media shooting down the politicians once they get in office? In other words, good people run for office, and then all of a sudden, you find out from the media or from whatever, that they're really not as good as we first thought they were? [TAMMY CARROLL]: That they're human. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: Well, dirt sells better than good. [GORDON BASHAM]: LaDean? [LADEAN RATZLAFF]: Well, I think we have a big problem with the media, really. [LAUGHTER] [GORDON BASHAM]: What's the problem, tell me about that.

[LAUGHTER] [LADEAN RATZLAFF]: Well, the media digs up dirt, that... a lot of people will judge a candidate after they hear the dirt. They will not judge him on his good qualities, or what he really wants to do. [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, I'm curious about that, because, do you want to know the honest truth about someone, or... Is that important to you all? It's not really important to you? [VERONICA SOLES]: I've never been interested in people's private lives. [LADEAN RATZLAFF]: Right. [GORDON BASHAM]: So the private life is really... [JAMES DOUGLAS]: That's why they call it public life and private life. [GORDON BASHAM]: So the private life doesn't really give any indication...? [TAMMY CARROL]: I'm sorry, folks. I have to be the lone voice, because a man's private life tells me about his integrity and his character. [GORDON BASHAM]: I was going to ask that question. Does that send any signals about a person's abilities? [TAMMY CARROLL]: If he's willing to run was a listener question arises is willing if he's willing to to run for that public office, in my opinion, that is his statement that he is willing to open himself up to questions and probing. I

do very much want to know about a person's private life, because I want to know if he's a man or woman of character, and integrity, and honesty, and responsibility, and all those wonderful, glorious things...and we can play The Star Spangled Banner, now. [LAUGHS] [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, people in private lives have to live within their means, and what I'm hearing you all say is that the government, the people whom we elect to office -- not only the people who make the laws, but the government that actually serves us -- also needs to live within its means. [LADEAN RATZLAFF]: That's right. [GORDON BASHAM]: And we were saying a minute ago, one of the things the opponents are saying about this living within our means, is that a lot of good programs would actually get cut or would lose funding, and a lot of good people would suffer -- children especially. Does that trouble you all at all, or not? [JAMES DOUGLAS]: I think that's a flag that gets waved every time that the government looks like they're not going to get to spend as much money as they want to spend. [TAMMY CARROLL]: And also, instead of concentrating on all these individual little programs, to borrow an analogy from a friend, if i have six children and they're all swinging on a swing-set, and they're all swinging at different speeds...see for me these

programs -- I would say, what brought those programs into existence? And let's fix that. [GORDON BASHAM]: What was the need? In other words, fix the need, rather than necessarily cut the program. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Right. Let's fix that, instead of just trying to deal with the individual program. Instead of me running around trying to individually keep all my kids swinging, give me a board that goes the length of them, and let me push that. [LAUGHTER] You know, find the root cause of why this program came about, and let's dig in, and fix that. It may take a while, but let's fix it. And as we were talking before we started the show, I said, "All of these, for me, come down to one central root issue. And that is the health of each individual family within a society." When that family is brought up with values and morals and standards and a work ethic, where the kids see Dad go to work and work hard every day, and they respect that. And they respect him for doing it. Then you won't need programs, because you won't need people running to the government with their hand out, saying, "Gimme, gimme." [GORDON BASHAM]: And that, in effect, summarizes jobs and the economy. Did you want to say something? [VERONICA SOLES]: I was going to say that it seems like anymore the government, by

regulating and everything, is taking away the competitive spirit of the individual people. [GORDON BASHAM]: So competition -- a very interesting point that you made a while ago, Andy -- competition really does not exist within government. It exists within private business, but it does not exist within government. And if it did exist within government, we would have better government? Is that a statement that you all would agree with? [ANDY ANDERSON]: We wouldn't have a deficit. [GORDON BASHAM]: We wouldn't have a deficit -- that's a very interesting comment. [ANDY ANDERSON]: I don't think we would. [GORDON BASHAM]: We would have enough money to go around, and enough programs to go around. [TAMMY CARROLL]: Well, they'd have to do what they do a whole lot cheaper. [ANDY ANDERSON]: Well, when they put $500 Mr. Coffees on airplanes, and they spend $20 or $30 for pencils, obviously, somebody is not shopping and comparing. Obviously. I mean, I can do better than that. I don't spend $20 on a pencil. [GORDON BASHAM]: Or $500 on a toilet seat. [ANDY ANDERSON]: Exactly! I mean, really, when you look at those things, your mind reels. You say, "This isn't happening. This is impossible. I'm paying taxes and they're spending that kind of money on toilet seats and coffee pots? I can't believe it!" [TAMMY CARROLL]: Well,

my mind reels when i realize that that is the tip of a monstrous iceberg. You know, the extra spending that was added on to this crime bill, and the, I'm sorry, folks -- it just made me nauseous. [ANDY ANDERSON]: Well, haven't we made a change in government? I mean, when government first came around -- and we've got the best government in the world, I mean I don't care, we've got it -- but when government was first formed back many years ago, the communication systems, I mean, it took several days to ride a horse from Washington to wherever. That's why we have representatives. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: We need to do electronic referendum voting. [ANDY ANDERSON]: Well, maybe not quite that much, but the idea is, maybe we don't need them quite in such control of us anymore, because we are an informed society -- now at least we can be if you turn on anything, you can be, radio, television, doesn't make any difference. [VERONICA SOLES]: If you choose to be informed. [ANDY ANDERSON]: Exactly. You have to choose to be. [JAMES DOUGLAS]: Well, the original intent of the government was to provide for the national defense, and make this place a secure land so that you could go about your business. It wasn't,

it wasn't designed to take care of you from the crypt to the crib, or vice versa. [GORDON BASHAM]: Well, I think that it's very obvious to me... it's very obvious to me that the jobs and the economy issue is really, it's terribly complex. And it's very hard to really sort it out, and it's really very hard to try to make any sense of it, when it comes right down to one particular issue. [NICK HAINES]: You've been listening to a special citizens' forum about jobs and the economy in Kansas. It's one in a series of forums that is part of the Kansas Public Radio Election Project. Participants in this forum were taken from a recent poll of six hundred Kansans, conducted by KPR and the Wichita Eagle newspaper. Our moderator was Gordon Basham, News Director of Kansas Public Radio member station KMUW in Wichita. The forum was held at the studios of Wichita State University's Media Resource Center. Technical assistance was provided by

KMUW and WSU Channel 13. The executive producer of this program was Vance Heiner. I'm Nick Haines, and this is Kansas Public Radio. [SILENCE]