Biography Hawaiʻi; Maiki Aiu Lake; Interview with Puakea Nogelmeier 12/17/01 #3

She went away, she went to Maui, no, she was in Honolulu, she's in Honolulu, she barricaded the harbour. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they say, you know, and they're pretty much center and it's going to be a father. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the father, you can't do that sort of thing. You can't do that sort of thing. But you have to go back under his mulu, you cannot, you know, you cannot be on your own. Yeah. What's she's got? You know the ones you know the most about? Oh, okay. All of those, but whatever. Mm-hmm. Are we wrong? Yeah. Okay. So. As for Mikey's teachers, I never knew any of her teachers, you know, they precede my time. And yet I know them all because they're all icons. They're all. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. My poor class, that's why they get so engaged. Some devil they have to, you know, and I just scan the room, I devour them. Okay.

Back on that track about Mikey's teachers is that I didn't know any of them. I come to it through Mikey's students, but I know all of them as icons because we talked about the diminishing number of sort of deeply cultural groups and individuals within those groups. Then they become sort of lightning rods, central, whether they're the teachers or they're the resources. And her teachers were, in many ways, the most renowned of the resources of the time. The G.E. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. Y. And many of the best known today because of the legacy that she leaves not only for the hula, but she does for the language. She does for many of the Hawaiian practices. Family practice. Herbopracted lots of different interpretation and explanation that she's left for today.

So she's maybe the best known icon. But reallyfest determine that Mikey's teachers were the people that are the foundation resources for many of the Hawaiian studies or the Hawaiian practices today. In the context of Hawaiian chant, could you tell us what Kalna means? Kalna is a meaning that is couched within the poetry so that it's not obvious to the listener. It depends on your source. Kavanaugh always said that real Kalna cannot be understood by anyone except for the poet and perhaps those intimate with the setting which inspired the poetry. So Kalna is the hidden meaning within poetry. Poetry is always the base of the hula. So it's going to be the underlying.

Mikey actually explained that there are many levels to each melee. And that one might be historical, one might be a geographical, one might be personal, one might be sexual, and under all of that was the Kalna that might tie to each of those levels. So that's the Kalna is supposedly not knowable except to those who are intimate with the piece. This is another question for the culturally impaired. Could you tell us how a pahu and how Kilu are used in hula? Both of them are percussion instruments that are the base of the rhythmic side of the hula. The rhythmic backdrop to the chanting, to the text. The pahu of course being the carved drum usually of coconut, but it can also be of Ulu, Milo,

a number of other words, each of which had a certain significance. The Kilu is another term for the Puneu. Both of those mean the knee drum which is an encounter point. It can be danced with a loan or it can be done with the hula. I mean with the pahu, I'm sorry. The Kilu is a broader term, a Puneu is a knee drum that has to be made of coconut. A Kilu could be made of coconut, could be made of Ipuh of the gourd, or it could be made of a modern gourd that has been introduced as the la ameah, or la ameah is another pronunciation. And usually with either a shark skin cover or the kala, the kala fish has a texture much like the shark, and it's a smaller fish but big enough for any size, Kilu. So I always use the Kilu as I understand, that's what we learned, and even if we made it with the new, we called it a Kilu. The Kilu has a secondary meaning, is that it was also what was called the coins in the

game, Kilu, was a sexual poetic riddling sort of, it's a mix of interactions that could be played between teams, and the Kilu is thrown from side to side, and hits or doesn't hit a marker, usually done for gambling and gambling could be for goods or for sexual liaison. You know, going back, I forget to ask you this question about, you know, that Craig brought up, and that we were talking about a little earlier about my teachers, and about the issue of language, and that he's teachers being native speakers, and not being native speakers. What that meant for her as a teacher? Yeah, well, as far as I know, all of my teachers were native speakers of Hawaiian, and so

the understanding and the utilization of the language within the teaching, and in the poetry that's handed down through the Hula, was really normalized for them, was really part of their regular cognition. It would have been a big jump from Aiki, although I think she had really good comprehension, she often understood Hawaiian. I watched people speak to her in Hawaiian, and have her completely follow what was going on, but I never heard her speak fluently in Hawaiian, or try to use it. But she really, in her own teaching, and I know that that was handed down to my teacher, instilled a really deep respect for the language and the need for it for comprehension of it, so that she had a whole set of educational practices that she incorporated in her Hula, and one of those was understanding of the text. You had to memorize the text, but each student also had to interpret that text into English, even if there was an existing translation that was standard practice in learning a Hula,

was having to look up every word in the text. So she strove for a real understanding of the Hawaiian, even though she wasn't a native or a fluent speaker of it, so it would have posed a big challenge for her, and maybe undermine the confidence to some extent. She writes about the difficulty in learning by memorization, and I wonder if that's why she kept that that was always a part of it as well but added a whole other set of

layers of learning so the idea of interpreting having students interpret the chance word by word and that's not for every student in the halal but those who are in serious whether you're in a umiki class or whether you're in alaqahi that was expected of any of the serious students the keeping of a notebook every student was expected to keep a notebook to write on all the words to any of the who lived that they learned all the interpretations their own research on that research and all the implements you expected to do research bring that in your notebooks would be checked there was a whole academic side that she then incorporated into her institution that was handed to all of her students and I know that every one of them that I know that's teaching uses it in one level or another so do you think as an educator what do you think about that change in a way of teaching well I think it's less an adaptation as an expansion she's addressing a different level of student

than her own teachers or addressing well like her lack of fluency in the language maybe maintained a nice tie with her to her teachers because they would always be a reliance on other resources to help interpret and fully understand things but I think what she saw is that she was addressing a different populace and a populace that didn't even have as much background as she brought to it so rather than let go of some of the traditional practices of learning I think she added on to them because she very much used very traditional practices as well and we've talked about some of those where she would simply either present the material and you are to grasp it through straight memorization or where she will present the need for knowledge you need to know this and barely frame it and expect you to go and fill in those gaps knowing that those resources are available to you she did that with my name she did that

with another another you know number of instances with things that were processes in the hallow where she would identify that you need to know about this do as an educational process she had utilized us as a group of dancers borrowed Millie's boys is what she did she needed a performance group for the show and so we'd perform we were always honored to participate with the mother I mean she was to be asked was a nice thing and when we were done there was a big luau all of the participants and many of the people who had put it on it was a fundraiser for I think one of the civic clubs we didn't know anybody we were the white and I group we were just really there to say thanks to Maiki and to eat well and so we'd already eaten we're now waiting through the speeches and in the middle of the speeches and she's doing a speech in front of three or four hundred people introduces says I'd like you all to

meet this you know the man with the spear we had done a yeh a hule yeh it was actually a polo lu I think and to stand up stand up poor Kea and it's pointing to me but I'd never heard that word before and I thought either she's talking to someone behind me or she's forgotten my name and she's very insistent this is she's on a rollhole and won't let me go I'm about six rows back and she's continuing to gesture going stand up poor Kea I want them to meet you and finally full blush I'm standing knowing that she's probably talking to someone else but I stand up and she introduces me to the audience and I assume now that she's just got me confused with someone else we'd only met a handful of times I'm nobody she's somebody it'd be easy to mess up but as we go to say goodbye from a distance we're still a bit away and she says that was my name when I entered the hula now that's your name and leaves us now she's got to kiss the other two

or three hundred people it leaves us in the hands of Millie my Kumu has now on the ride home and in the next weeks to follow is left with the responsibility of explaining the whole importance of names of naming Kuliana how those things happened and and it turns out and Millie had explained that Mikey often does this where she'll just present it and it's set there's no real questioning on it you need to articulate it understand it makes sense out of it so I actually learned the whole sort of cultural connotations that go with naming from Millilani that whole lesson plan was dropped in her lap by Mikey by dropping this little bomb over here created this other one and a very clever educational process but just simply present it and then let it blew interesting way of teaching mm-hmm not unique to Mikey I just would mention that that I work a lot

with Kulpuna this is not unusual at all in the sense of present this thing and then rather watch to make sure that you grasp all the pieces if you haven't been able to bring that flower they'll step back in but otherwise they're not going to take you step by step through it all interesting I'm sorry you had another that was more interesting than what I was going to ask you can always ask this question back to me you know Mikey's you know teaching methods that she added on to from her own experience do you know she was criticized or it was controversial in any way for her to start teaching like that now I wasn't there when she began but I always understood that she was actually quite criticized for sometimes it was called commercial she's doing a two grand scale it wasn't all people that she knew

she was teaching the strangers in effect it was called cooling university you know the kind of you know that there was criticism because she was doing something that was out of the norm for the time so and she was very high profile in a field that had been relatively low profile you had you know the Hula trade in the tourist industry had some very high profile dancers but that was a different realm within the more traditional practice it was a handful of individuals who had their protege students and here suddenly Maiki was doing a full-class and prepping them for Kumu status she also you know began to use that word halal in 1952 to distract her school do you know that was controversial it was I can't validate that it was but it was told that at the time that was it's a word like we were saying that has

connotations to old ritual practice so has that sort of dark taint to it and it wasn't embraced readily at all there were studios people did hula studios that's you just and it was a much lighter sense of the hula and halal implied a much deeper more traditional sense of training and perhaps ritual training you know when she really began to teach and in these bigger classrooms of hers in the 1950s you know what I want to frame this so that were there many places to your knowledge and what you were the average person could go and learn about Hawaiian culture in 1950 so you think Maiki filled a gap where you could go and learn about Hawaiian culture or have saved you in Hawaiian or

where you could step in and do some training in any kind of level I don't think there was much available at all except for these pockets of like I say family or small community links like Yolani Luahine and her grant I think it's her aunt Keahilua Hine they're training a handful of people at home it's in the living room the anti-pat bacon comes into that level so it's my private invite you can't just step in there were some doorways of entry for people I know the kilolani Mitchell who was Hauli who came here in the 1920s ended up at Keahilua Hine's house taking lessons because he bothered to ask any children of interest but it was still very much on a personal level of approval you know wasn't because he wasn't family or because he was from another place that you would think he

might not have entry but he had you know why personal approval he ended up down there at least for time so most of it I think was happening on that level there wasn't a lot of just public access the university was teaching some Hawaiian language it was a very very small level so there wouldn't have been a whole lot of places you could learn much of anything except within the family within the community perhaps you know so she was doing a whole new service whether we look at it as service or our business or because I think that was part of the critique is you're making a business out of tradition but she's not the only one that got critiqued for that you know I'm just thinking back to the people like well you know Konani she works at the library and she's a class was a classmate of mine and she told me that she went to Antimikey when she was like you know just attending the program and you know because I'm the same age

that she is I don't think there was any there wasn't much available support for anyone who wanted to develop any kind of identity with their culture but yet she had access to Antimikey you know so I'm thinking that I don't know that that access is universal but Mikey had peers you know Rose Joshua had her studio there were you know other teachers that were doing you know they're initiating and I don't know who starts you know that but there were groups that were trying to at least whether it's marketing or maintaining hula training taking in children taking in different levels of classes and making hula available at some level I don't think Rose Joshua ever did kahiko and that's where Mikey stepped over another line is not only did she do open her classes to the general public she also then started offering

traditional hula so and some of that was by invite the unique classes were always only by invite it sort of perpetuates the tradition of that it's a family a community a personal linkage kind of selected training let's talk about you know earlier we were talking about I was telling her I was a little bit confused about her role and bringing back performing and teaching mm-hmm could you just talk a little bit about her role and in fostering maybe what we call hula kahiko the the traditional hula the the hula done to chant rather than to music is often what makes it most recognizable to any audience now unfortunately because I come through Mikey's own school I wasn't terribly aware of any other groups that were doing but what happened is Mikey graduated whether she had a great deal of public

performance or not prior to the graduation of the lehua class she graduated a group of 24 teachers who were all trained in both modern and ancient tradition who each had the blessing to God and start teaching and they did at least half of them went out and set up halau within a year or two and that's where I step in is one of her students that went up and went and I she my teacher had peers all over the island chain suddenly there were eight maybe halau of her hula brothers and sisters just on a who there's one on my way there was one on Hawaii this generated a whole new level of public performance of participation this is where you start to get hula workshops being really high attendance issues there's a great demand for them hula competitions are beginning so really she's helping whether she's the sole source or a powerful force she's helping to initiate a whole new wave of public awareness of the hula because in

her day you know when she was training much of her training would not have been performed in public and yet what she taught her students well not everything that they're taught will be performed in public the number of her students and the dynamism that she generated there I think helped to to send a geometric level of change over the amount of public performances that existed so you get a whole different public sense of it do you think she was influential and being meant back to the dance I think very much and you know that's still a process but she very much encouraged that she was supportive of all of her men too to set up men's hula so I think she very much wanted to see that as an end result she wanted men to dance again and really push and the she borrowed us as men dancers quite often because she wanted men in the performances too she

wanted a balance so she seems to have her her set of early guys and then sort of the new you know in the seven days I guess once you had a couple of like lessons on a different set and I don't know the pre-publica who are set and I don't know a great deal about how she held the hula and what kinds of things were going on who her main dancers were and whatnot up until the public who the Lord that was handed to me that I learned much deals with the legacy of the different papa the different graduating classes everybody outside of the graduating classes were just dancers I don't know at all what stimulated it except I believe that it was a need for perpetuation and that's what you know what was always discussed was the need to formally hand that down hand it on and formally validate new students with the ability to teach you

I think she was heavily criticized on a bunch of levels and for having a class period and so again you know you've got a certain level of disapproval for the ritual aspect of hula and so this she's you cannot have an uniki without ritual hula now she wasn't doing hula couple she was not maintaining the alter she was not you know doing offerings to the gods but you're still doing a great deal of ritual within the uniki so that's gonna open her to disapproval there the idea of doing it on the scale that she did it and then the idea of uniki after a year or two with some of the traditional teachers of the time they felt it was a lifetime practice you start to teach when your teacher dies not at some graduation and do you think she was doing that

yeah but do you think you know these things that she did that you know we've heard her let me go back what do you think are the elements that led to what people now call whether you like us to or not the Hawaiian Renaissance some of the things that stimulate what they call the Hawaiian Renaissance and again it's hard to say the I'm more likely to contest the word the than Renaissance because I think Renaissance is a very natural and real process that happens when suddenly there's a new inspiration and a new interest but there's been so many different Renaissance that it's difficult to say this is the one but the growth that happened in

the 70s is undeniable as far as an explosion of interest and participation and it happened on so many levels and there's been a lot of discussion who started it where did it begin I think it's really difficult to pinpoint and it's not a current that was only happening in Hawaii this is partly how the whole roots is happening on the mainland US there's similar waves of cultural re-validation are happening in lots of places Tahiti's having its own there's lots of Pacific things are happening so it's getting a lot of support whatever the original seeds are it's falling on fertile ground so Mikey definitely becomes one of the players there and she's responding to the interest and she's stimulating the interest so she's really one of the dynamic forces she's linked up with Kahawano who's a power in music he's a driving force in really very traditional always Hawaiian lyric traditional vocal stylings they're they're

guides and a high profile there she's also she's collaborating with all of the the Renaissance leaders of the time the people who are helping foster the language she knows Sam Albert she knows Kavanaugh she knows they're all mutually encouraging this the drive for an interest in a Hawaiian sense in Hawaiian practice in Hawaiian participation she was very very there's different issues in hand at the time she was very very supportive of the perpetuation of that knowledge she didn't particularly care what race her students were she was very supportive of Hawaiians but she wasn't exclusive at all and that's where those of us I was not Hawaiian many of the ones in our Halaah were not and she was totally encouraging yes yes learn master it and she I think was part of the group that they felt a real strong concern that this could disappear and so just the

bodies of tradition that could be handed down it was important to foster that do you know why people could have culture the mother of the Hawaiian sense okay