Jake Wheeler's Nightline; Captain Kangaroo

You. Good evening this is Jay quitter's Nightline and I'm Jay quatre written I thought I might abandon my traditional blue blazer night red tie in favor of a pair of overalls and be a Mr. Green Jeans to Bob Keeshan was Dr. kangaroo. Welcome to Rome. Nice to be with you Jack. Very nice. Well you know I was just I've been talking with young people I mean anybody over the age of 35 and I told them what I was doing today I was interviewing Captain Kangaroo and I'm going to fill this room with people who want to come in. You had a tremendous impact upon several generations of Americans to a very fine program for almost anybody in that age bracket

15 to 240 now they're about has had some experience growing up with a caption if they grew up in the United States and it is it is kind of a warm feeling for me at this point to meet these people who are people I refer to as my upper ruse. Who grew up with the caption and I now find of course that they are able to articulate the experience to a better or in a better way than they were when they were when they were actually experiencing the program. And they and they have some objectivity about it so I'm getting some nice reaction from these people and usually has to do is use expressed in terms of of the warmth of the experience and the regard in which I held them and the way in which I never spoke down to them and so on it was a friendship and that of course was what we were attempting to achieve really to instill some feeling of self-worth saw value in those young people that was really the bottom line of

what else it was that we were doing so from. From my my 15 to 40 year olds I do get that feedback which is very very pleasant for me. We have five children and they started coming all along about nine hundred fifty two and came along for about 12 years and I suppose we got our first television set somewhere in the mid 50s and saw the Captain Kangaroo was a major part of the growing they're growing up and I guess I watched as much Captain Kangaroo shows as they've seen. I suppose many parents grew up with Captain Kangaroo as the program always had during its days on CBS and we're finding the same thing and on public television now the program always had a large adult audience about 30 percent of our audience was always adults and I think there are probably good reasons for that. The program is not inane it's not solely a Sony. Children's producers like to think of as necessary and in children's programming

it regarded highly the intelligence of the child and therefore the approach that we use in the material that we dealt with was almost universal really and could be appreciated by adults as well as by young people. Did this show really run 30 years. Well it was on us for 30 years and now it's on public television so of course it probably has. Who knows how many years on public television and being very well received now across the nation where you were you were performing before that though you were doing a number of clown roles and so on on television and elsewhere you've done some stage roles as well. No no I never had time because time that I've become involved became involved in television in 1947 with Howdy Doody and that was truly accidental I was an undergraduate. Working my way to law school and I worked as a page where the NBC to really discipline meant my G.I. Bill of Rights and that in those days there were about 80000

television sets in the entire nation. The NBC network in the East was New York and Philadelphia. Bob Smith who was a radio personality was asked by NBC whom you may remember in those days was a subsidiary of RCA. And so RCA and NBC put money into programming that was that was not really practical from up for a strictly advertiser point of view but they wanted to sell television sets of course so they asked Rob to take a radio character that he had who was called Elmer who began every program by say Howdy Doody. And they asked him if he would put that on television. He has some radio actors the professionals in New York to help him they would have nothing to do with him because television was thought to be at least a decade away from the touring. So the ceiling pager was asked if you would help with the program and I was not interested in that career at all I was merely interested in the extra $5 the Bob Smith promised me for every program because it would supplement my income and help me to pay my way through college. And so that's really how I started on the next five years several things

happen in the industry and it just exploded now there were 30 million sets in the country. The NBC network spanned the continent from coast to coast. And the most significant thing really was I became a parent and then began looking at television with from a different perspective. Impressed with his potential. Concerned about some of its harmful effects its potential harmful effects. And so when I left Howdy Doody I started programming an entirely different way and went to two programs in New York that were quite transitional in nature one of which attracted the attention of CBS when they were thinking of programming for children early in the morning. So they invited me to put together to design a program for the early warning time period and the program became Captain Kangaroo. This may not be a proper question but I want to ask it anyway did you think of yourself primarily as an educator using the entertainment medium or an entertainer secondary interest in education.

Its a proper question and it's one that I don't I don't usually address and I because I don't think it's really all that important. I think a good I think the best educator. Has to be entertaining or it's a word offends you as an educator you have to be engaging you handling to gauge the attention of your students like you remember. In college we had a sociology professor who wrote the textbook teaching across the hall. It was maybe five or six in the class and the young associate on this side teaching in an auditorium was 75 or 80 people in his class using their textbooks. Well the difference really was the one was the scholar. There was no question about it. But the other was a communicator. You've got to communicate Absolutely. I'm a teacher and I think you really have to do successful teacher you've got to be concerned with classroom performance. We've got to market your product in the way it's going to community. Sure so I think that that's true incidentally not only

in post-secondary education but it's true to kindergarten. I think even you know a kindergarten teacher has to win the attention of the child has to communicate. So I have been asked that question in many different forms I what I remember in the old days of regulation one of my affiliated stations obviously filling out an FCC log. Wanted to know what percentage of the program was entertainment and what percentage was educational. And I replied 100 percent of each because it's a line that I just refused to draw. I guess the reason I was asking my question was this that so many entertainers would not be happy spending that much of their life doing one program they're in and out they want to try something else which you seem perfectly contented to spend a major portion of your professional life on that one program. Yes well because I regard with some seriousness the work that we do and I believe it's important work and I believe it's been successful and in some way enhancing the lives of young people over several generations.

And I think that we've found a successful way to do all of that and so that I think it would be really quite a shame if I did abandon that because I had some personal desire to turn my attention to Shakespeare or something of that sort. What I do is unique and all those other things can be done by many people. I have told a class of mine that was going to be talking with you tonight and. They suggested some questions are curious about where and what has happened to Mr. Green Jeans. Well he's just fine he's a he's in retirement in Pennsylvania but on his little farm life. But he's he's certainly available at any time we take new material to come in and join us he's he's advancing in a so we don't want to overwork and he's 78 or 79 now so he's entitled to his rest and we wouldn't overwork him but he's he's resilient and and a wonderful person and he's not an actor. He's really. He's a musician by background he was Fred Waring for 15 years before he joined us he was a he was Fred's bass player

and then did a little little children stories a special material for Fred which drew my attention to him. And so when we started this he was just delighted because he had been really doing one night stands living on the bus for seven and eight months of the year and he was the light is settled out. But now we just wanted to relax a little bit. And when I say he's not an actor that's meant as a compliment because the human being that you see is an absolute natural and I don't think you could be. Well I think he's capable of acting but I think what he does say in his Mr. Green Jeans character is really his own facade and he's a wonderful human being. If you tuned in late and I don't have to tell you what I'm talking about it's what I want. Now the people on the program whatever it was happened to Mr. moves. Sally Grady who plays all of those characters I was the youngest member of the cast and as incredible as it may seem Gus is about 6 months old and I think Gus is an actor and does a movie parts and some stage work and the and the

Kate and occasional soap opera he played everything you play Mr. Moose bunny rabbit dancing bear grandfather Carter all of those characters that were untouched by Mr. Green Jeans and I were played by Gazzetta Garrick and he just came back to do any new production that we do. When you think of television a day for children where there really is very little television with children today that is programming specifically produced for a child audience other than in public television the commercial sector of course no longer is obligated to serve the needs of young people and other special audiences because the industry is is deregulated. Up until about five years ago. When the television went to work television station went to Washington the broadcaster went to Washington every few years with a license and had to be renewed he did a little shaking and worrying that the commission might say well you haven't served your community very well what have you done for this particular minority group or what have you done for children or whatever. And nowadays that's

totally unnecessary Now Oliver. Well I like to joke I think they can mail a self-addressed stamped envelope and have their license renewed. There are no obligations on broadcasters any longer. So as a result we have in the commercial sector only the marketplace determining decisions as to what programming shall be placed on the airwaves. So as a result we don't have children's programming of any quality because the marketplace finds adults so much more attractive audience in terms of dollars the bottom line. Saturday morning is the only children's block and most of that programming or just as exploitive and designed to sell product and also designed to appeal to adults by the way my story break that I have on CBS on Saturday morning has the largest juvenile audience on Saturday morning and yet it's only the fifth or sixth rated program and total audience because the other programs are designed to attract a large adult audience the Rambos that the rest of the programs the monster programs and so on. So it is the marketplace that these public television and in our

great wisdom. At the same time that we deregulated broadcasting we cut back on funding for public television so they don't have the resources to fill the vacuum left by commercial broadcasters. The captain coming back. It took us 18 months to find the funding to bring us to public television and it's a combination we do have a national underwriter who has supplied the basic money but the stations have supplied tribute a tremendous amount of money as well. And that's true I would like to point out that that's pledge week in operation. That's pledge week successfully operating. It's a direct grassroots demonstration that that pledge week does work. So the 200 or so public television stations that carry the captain now have been able to do so because of your support. That's why I urge constantly that our viewers pay a lot of attention to such things as bugs we can support the public television. Station in the community. I don't guess the stations would object if contributions came out at other times of the year.

Absolutely not. I don't know I mean I carry on for this. I'm working for several of the systems for Georgia Public Television for Arkansas public television and that we're working on on an on going silent campaign we want to do away with pledge week and get our people in the habit of supporting us on our live round basis and I'd be nice if you could ever do this it would. Yes it would if we could only train our our audiences to understand their role and our need for their support. Question relating to two Captain Kangaroo and the fact it was for commercial network. Were there ever any difficulties about the kind of advertising that you had. Yes not not not really hearing any dramatic difficulties in the very beginning. We established rules and those rules were much stricter than the network rules were at that time. Subsequently the network adopted our rules and to a large extent. But I made it very

clear and the chief executive of the network supported me in that position. And so the battle was over right in the very beginning and we were able to set our own rules. Man let's talk about Bob Keeshan for just a minute if you would. It's hard for Americans to separate Captain Kangaroo from Bob Keeshan but I look over your your biography and the I'm the number of things you were involved in the number of awards you've received really is these things are astounding you've gotten six Emmy Awards for your television performances. You've got all kinds of special awards from the National Education Association and from religious groups and from state groups all over the country it's an amazing recognition. I think both of your talents and your your contributions but I suppose also a recognition of what it is you're trying to accomplish. I always like to think that whatever recognition. That we have had is for the work that

we do and I think I take great personal pride in the work of course and therefore I am personally gratified when the work is recognized but I do think it is recognition of the work and what it has accomplished over the years and I'm sure it's a good deal more than that but I've counted up 14 honorary degrees I mean we could call you Dr. kangaroo you have the view over and from amazingly good places to like Dartmouth Indiana State University. And you were very actively involved at the College of New Rochelle I guess chair of the board of trustees there. Yes I was chairman and the trustee for I guess 13 years or so at New Rochelle. They have very kindly turn me out to pasture which is something we ought to enforce on all trust after a certain period of time and I've been involved in post-secondary education in state of New York as a founder of an organization called the Council of governing words which represents all the trustees in the independent sector in New York and that's a very large sector we have about three hundred sixty thousand students and it's exactly the same size as the public sector the state supported and so the support of

sectors we have three sectors skinny State University securities City University and the independent sector places like Fordham served us Colombia and so on and. So we represented the trustees of those institutions at the legislature and I think executive and pleading for funds and so on so I'm acutely aware of the of the problems facing our post-secondary education and the questions facing trustees and administrators and faculties of our institutions when I worked for Bridget Holland who used to work for you I gather in New Rochelle as Bridget is one of my favorite human beings a lovely and dear human being she's just wonderful and we I think she's a gem and we know it's a loser to have her return here but I know that we have to first of this I know you did it but we had a first she was a graduate of the College of every show so we were also involved in a number of activities hospital activities beyond the

colleges that you're dealing with the international president of organizations that deal with various medical problems and so on you're active in police organizations. That's right I don't think I have very much of what people would say. Clear spirit type you know the time that people usually spend the hobby of photography or sailing or whatever it happens to be all of which I've dabbled in over the years. I guess whatever time I have now is really spent I love my work and I love what I do and that's probably the reason I need so little spare time I don't think I'm one of those people I call a workaholic. I think I'm motivated differently than than such people but I enjoy my work I take a lot of satisfaction in doing. I would rather be working at what I'm doing whether it be acting or producing or lecturing or whatever than then doing almost anything else. I don't feel that I suffered a car in area A few years ago and the doctor went and sending me home from Toronto in

Canada. Said to me now you relax I know you you're just going to go right you can go back to that studio and you just got to go to work and take some time off and play golf or something and I said the doctor most and why you were called upon to do with a small television show maybe for cable or something. Talking about a car in every problems or whatever and you get to the studio or there's the camera and the microphone comes above you and your blood pressure rises a little bit you can't help it you become a little nervous but I said to me in doing this for 40 years that's kind of like sitting in my living room. I'm perfectly relaxed where there's no stress at all. But if you make me stand on the first tee of a golf course and addressable troubled eyes why should that doctor is stressed. So don't make me do it. So that's what I do in my spare time I work because that's my relaxation I've heard of many golf clubs ending up in the bottom of the lake. Well but you were rolling over recently under the auspices of the Mental Health Association of parent child so now you talk about the very family.

Heard of the Holy Family and other changes in society particularly in family structure that have occurred in the last quarter of a century that makes it I think much more did the gulp for children to ground for us as as parents and child professionals and responsible members of the community to nurture children. The Holy Family is only one aspect of the changes we've witnessed and in family structure over the years the Holy Family of course comes about as a combination of things that children today are subject to so much media hype you know. The designer jeans and the and take on the trappings of adulthood and all of that long before you as a child are prepared to do so. And then there's a very real every day reason why many many children not all that many are hurried today. Many families of course are quite different today single parent households. Households where both parents work outside the home. That places a stress on

children in many ways and one of the ways that that occurs that stress occurs is for the older siblings to take on responsibility for younger siblings and other responsibility for running the household that normally destroyed by adults in the home and even for even further than that and for example in single parent households one of the greatest strains of a single parent is companionship someone to talk to. We really recognize that or think about that. But if you're a single parent you can home from work usually if you have a spouse there you would unburden yourself to a spouse. We find many single parent households the temptation for parents to unburden themselves to the child. We're going to hear what happened to me at work today with Mistress where the child is unprepared to understand to deal with those problems is that I was wrong of abuse somewhere else. Well it does not that would not that's not really my thing but the abuse does occur because because I think single parents tend to be

more stressed because they don't have the resources to a room to lean on to rely upon a parent in a two parent household they can rely upon each other and then in years gone by everybody had an extended family today the extended family occurs less often than it did we don't have a mother to call upon we don't have Aunt Mary in her good advice. To help with help with the problems of the home. So yes sometimes it certainly does cause child abuse and neglect. Now that I gather that one problem which we have little control is the disintegration of the family as we knew it anyway. Are we having to learn to roll with the punches to make compensations rather than try to recapture the traditional family. I think that's what we should do. I do hear some of some people say oh well that's ridiculous that lady ought to be back in the home taking care of the kids you know what's good so what is she doing out there working anyway I know why doesn't she take care of the children. Well I mean that's just

Neanderthal we can't go back. That woman is out there. Ninety nine percent of the time because she's not because she wants to be but because she has to be. 20 percent of our children in this nation live below the poverty line and a great many of those in a single parent households. And that's the economic situation that most single parents face just putting bread at a table just paying the rent. So it's a real struggle. So they're out there because they have to be. So we in society in our own self-interest not necessarily out of compassion I'd like to think that we're compassionate we all say in our we love children all were great but greatly supportive of the American family in reality we're not. I would like to think out of our own self-interest if not out of compassion that we would insist that the programs be in place that would support the family and care for these young people that means day care programs that means programs in the Christian programs of medical care and so on. I say out of our own self-interest because we're foolish if we don't such programs would cost maybe a couple thousand dollars maybe as much as $3000 a year per child for

the first eight or 10 years of that child's life and that would set that child up to to actually accomplish almost anything in this world that would make that child into or into a good taxpayer if we don't do that we're going to pay in for higher taxes forgetting about the social costs in far higher economic terms. A very serious price because I fed prisoner's breakfast this morning I fed them lunch and I fed them dinner tonight and I clothed them and I and I paid the salaries of the guards that are keeping them behind bars and it's costing me and other taxpayers twenty five or thirty thousand dollars a year each and every year. So in in one year we spend more than we would spend in the entire growing up period that would produce a program that probably would have saved that child from being a failure in my profession is that unfortunately we're not moving in the direction of better financing and better so that we're not we're not we're not actually not we seem to have our priorities or mixed up in this country. You see I believe in a strong defense and all that sort of thing. And we have to defend against our enemies from

without whoever that may be. But. I also say that if we don't defend against our enemies from within from from drugs and despair from poverty and and all of the other illnesses that are affecting the American family today if we don't actively fight was with the proper programs we may find ourselves a decade from now with out with a society not worth defending from the enemies with and without So you know it's like Thurber used to say and you may as well fall flat on your faces. As for bend over too far backwards you know you really have to be sensible about these things and it's urgent that we support the family and the United States today. We are those of the day your messages the children of yesterday for your message and I thank you for being my guest on Nightline. Captain Kangaroo doctor kangaroo thank you for watching tonight.